FAI proposals for future of Eircom League...

[Bald Student]

I'm not saying you don’t deserve your place in the 22 and I'm not saying you are the bottom of the pile either but some of the nonsense you lot have come out with trying to defend UCD is annoying. If you ask me there's an equal amount of nonsence coming in both directions. If UCD are going to continue in the premier as it improves we're goning to need bigger crowds & a better stadium, there's no question about that. It's not accurate though to accuse us of sitting on our hands and showing no ambition. 1.6 million has already been invested in the Bowl to bring it up to soccer specs and when the planning board rejects the appeal which is holding the rest up another million will finish the job this summer. The fact of the matter is that UCD, aswell as a lot of other clubs, just can't afford to run up a loss of a million euros a year chasing league titles and call it ambition.

[Poor Student]

I think you UCD fans are underestimating the potential that 10 well supported teams in a Premier Division has.

Are we really? The Premier Division has contained most of the league's biggest clubs throughout most of its history. What good has it done the league? You can replace UCD and Dublin with Limerick and Shamrock Rovers but you will not make a monumental difference. It doesn't seem to bother you that shifting teams on such bases is somewhat odd or not football like. You seem to be talking about it like it's something normal. Your end result for doing this bizarre and unfair thing is not a huge amount of difference.


If you can get this type of feeling in all grounds every week of the league season I think it could help increase crowds.

How are you going to get these people to come because you've added a couple of bigger games to the calendar? Are they even going to notice? Do you not think there's something more fundementally wrong preventing these people from bothering to support their local side than them having to play UCD instead of Rovers one week?


You also forget a 10 team league means we play each other twice so we get two Shamrock Rovers gates and two Bohs Pats Cork Drogheda etc etc. You may not like this but I find UCD and Dublin City games to be absolute rubbish and I can only put my finger on the lack of atmosphere and interest there is.

You're seriously minimalising the league's problems here. If you can't get fans to come to Tolka every week then a couple of games against UCD and Dublin City have little to do with it. This is even the first time both clubs have been together in the Premier Division.


How you can go to Belfield every 2nd week is astonishing in my opinion. Well done to any of you who do but your team has NO ambition!!! Its not Pragmatism its NO AMBITION!!!

Our team has their own ambitions. To stay in the Premier Division, to do well in the cups, to continue to develop talent, to increase the fanbase, enhance community links. Look over across the water to the Premiership. There are some clubs who's ambition is to avoid relegation, others to achieve midtable security, others to challenge for UEFA cup spots, others CL spots and a few the title. That's the reality of football, varying clubs with varying ambitions, goals, resources etc. It is pragmatism. You've lost all scope of footballing reality. Crewe Alexandria have a reputation for developing football talent like UCD and are actually lauded for it.


Everyone goes on about Dublin City here but I don’t mind them as least Ronan has some idea of what he would like even if its highly unlikely ever to happen.

See, here's where you pragmatism and reality comes in again. Read some of his statements of the club's goals and try not to laugh. He has no sense of reality. All long term goals and plans must be tempered with reality and pragmatism.


You blame the college for your lack of development in Belfield ??? Is it not up to the club to sort that out…. You have been playing there long enough now to have a proper structure in place.

You tell me then, why is the Riverside a wreck? Why is the Ballybough (the one opposite the Riverside?) totally outdated with giant unsafe steps? You're not making much of an effort to sort out Tolka either? Why is that? Because you don't own it? You're planning on moving away? Or you can't afford it? I don't know myself, but a lot of it is in a bad state and for reasons beyond your control or lack of finances you can't be arsed to sort it out yourselves.


You have been in the premier division long enough not to have put some money back into your ground. You cant turn around and say the FAI are giving you half a season.

We've upgraded it gradually and we were going to upgrade it further but the college has other plans for it, not much we can do.


Facts are if your club had any intention of doing anything other then surviving every single season you would have something worthy of calling a ground.

That would be why we're working on it and have applied for planning permission.


I'm not saying you don’t deserve your place in the 22 and I'm not saying you are the bottom of the pile either but some of the nonsense you lot have come out with trying to defend UCD is annoying.

Some of the stuff you come out with is equally annoying.


Actually can you tell me what there aims are for the coming season ?????

To avoid being arbitrarily relegated by a committee.


Try do up your ground or try something.

Hence the planning permission.


You are a joke of a club in my opinion, not because you attached to a College or have the name UCD but you have no intention of going anywhere or doing anything.

Yes we do, but because it falls short of megalomanic desire for world conquest that offends you. Ever played Football Manager? Notice how when you pick different clubs the boards give you different aims depending on the clubs you pick?


If we all adapt the UCD attitude we all sit around saying how crap everything is and never try anything new!! What do you expect to happen??? Do you think John Delaney and the FAI should release a statement saying the EL is doomed and we have decided to do nothing as we think its pointless, now carry on. You lot would be first to complain as usual.

There's nothing wrong with the salary caps, added prize money, assistance for marketing etc. There is something wrong with arbitrarily assigning places. Don't pretend I am against all progress or ideas.

[pineapple stu]

If you can get this type of feeling in all grounds every week of the league season I think it could help increase crowds.
Nothing more than a vague feeling, so? Based on the fact that the myriad away fans in the league would prefer more home fans to interact with? Hardly a solid basis for cherry-picking, don't you think?


You may not like this but I find UCD and Dublin City games to be absolute rubbish and I can only put my finger on the lack of atmosphere and interest there is.
That appears to me to be your problem, not ours or the league's.


[Y]our team has NO ambition!!!
This would be the same team who are arguing aganist being kicked out of the Premier? Real lack of ambition there. The same team who have consistently punched about their weight for the last 15 years? Real lack of ambition there. Of course's there's plans going forward, including a structure for full-time football. (Couldn't be bothered going into them in detail though, as it's the wrong thread and as you strike me as yet another of the closed-ears brigade.)


You blame the college for your lack of development in Belfield ??? Is it not up to the club to sort that out….
Pure ignorance beginning to show through here, I'm afraid. There were plans in place - planning permission had been sought and achieved, in fact - for a full redevelopment of Belfield Park about 3 or 4 years ago. The first phase was a 1200-seater stand on the hill, with changing rooms, hospitality area, etc. There were three other phases in place as well. Then the college decided it wanted the land to build a new facility, so we had to ditch our plans and row in with the college's. So yes, it is the college's fault.


You can't turn around and say the FAI are giving you half a season.
I have no idea what that's supposed to mean?:confused:


I follow Shelbourne as you might have noticed and I can sure as hell tell you exactly what the aim of Shelbourne FC is and its not to just survive.
Given your recent financial trouble, that should be your aim.


Try do up your ground or try something.
Like the new ground that has planning permission in?


You are a joke of a club in my opinion
That's OK. I made my mind up about your opinion a while back.

[pineapple stu]

If UCD are going to continue in the premier as it improves we're goning to need bigger crowds & a better stadium, there's no question about that.
Should point that that's a no-brainer. No-body's saying we - or any other club - don't want to improve. Just that we shouldn't be punished for improving at a different rate to others.

[higgins]

Shelbourne eh? This the same Shelbourne who on completing a league and cup double in 2001 attracted 900 people for their first home game the following season against newly promoted Bray who brought over 200 fans to the game?
This the same club that brought 100 fans to Flancare park for a possible title deciding game in 2004?

Yes thats them...

They also happen to be the Shelbourne who for the most part have a decent sized crowd in EL terms at most home games ie Games when we dont play UCD, Dublin City.

Dont come on here saying Shels get bad crowds. In EL terms we are up there in the top 3 or 4 every season.

We can all pick the odd game here and there where crowds dont turn up! That happens to every team, rain tv public holidays exams god only knows why but lets stick to averages.

[higgins]

Are we really? The Premier Division has contained most of the league's biggest clubs throughout most of its history. What good has it done the league? You can replace UCD and Dublin with Limerick and Shamrock Rovers but you will not make a monumental difference. It doesn't seem to bother you that shifting teams on such bases is somewhat odd or not football like. You seem to be talking about it like it's something normal. Your end result for doing this bizarre and unfair thing is not a huge amount of difference.


I think it might just kickstart something that could grow and with the added extra of prize money extra TV coverage and hopefully all clubs encouraged to spend more on Marketing no it doesn’t bother me.
Life is too short to sit around and do nothing. Lets give it a try. Its football and its one season in the life of any club. If your as well run as you say you will be back up in 2008 with Shels and their 10,000 average fanbase :)



How are you going to get these people to come because you've added a couple of bigger games to the calendar? Are they even going to notice? Do you not think there's something more fundementally wrong preventing these people from bothering to support their local side than them having to play UCD instead of Rovers one week?


Eh!!! You may have not noticed this being a UCD fan but there is a massive difference in gate money between playing a well dupported Dublin team and a not so well supported Dublin team



You're seriously minimalising the league's problems here. If you can't get fans to come to Tolka every week then a couple of games against UCD and Dublin City have little to do with it. This is even the first time both clubs have been together in the Premier Division.


I know and as you can see teams are hit with poor crowds now twice !



Our team has their own ambitions. To stay in the Premier Division, to do well in the cups, to continue to develop talent, to increase the fanbase, enhance community links. Look over across the water to the Premiership. There are some clubs who's ambition is to avoid relegation, others to achieve midtable security, others to challenge for UEFA cup spots, others CL spots and a few the title. That's the reality of football, varying clubs with varying ambitions, goals, resources etc. It is pragmatism. You've lost all scope of footballing reality. Crewe Alexandria have a reputation for developing football talent like UCD and are actually lauded for it.


Its realistic to say you will survive and you will try avoid relegation. I don’t for one second think Shels will win the Champions League but EVERY SEASON lads EVERY FECKING SEASON you are at this.
Are you not sick of it yourselves?



See, here's where you pragmatism and reality comes in again. Read some of his statements of the club's goals and try not to laugh. He has no sense of reality. All long term goals and plans must be tempered with reality and pragmatism.


He is up there in the clouds but I'd like to have tried and failed rather than not try at all.



You tell me then, why is the Riverside a wreck? Why is the Ballybough (the one opposite the Riverside?) totally outdated with giant unsafe steps? You're not making much of an effort to sort out Tolka either? Why is that? Because you don't own it? You're planning on moving away? Or you can't afford it? I don't know myself, but a lot of it is in a bad state and for reasons beyond your control or lack of finances you can't be arsed to sort it out yourselves.


Oh come on ???????
The fact you can even put in the word step makes any of them whole heap better then the scaffolding out in Belfield.



We've upgraded it gradually and we were going to upgrade it further but the college has other plans for it, not much we can do.


HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
OK please please telll me the gradual improvements you have made to Belfield going back 10 years or so ?
You gradually let the grass grow is about all….

What other ground has a keep off the grass sign ?

Please tell me the improvements you have made



Yes we do, but because it falls short of megalomanic desire for world conquest that offends you. Ever played Football Manager? Notice how when you pick different clubs the boards give you different aims depending on the clubs you pick?

Of course you cant aim for the title this season but maybe if you had any other plan other then survive you could put together this thing they call a long term plan ?
For some club who you say is so well run you don’t seem to have any long term objectives.

[higgins]

Nothing more than a vague feeling, so? Based on the fact that the myriad away fans in the league would prefer more home fans to interact with? Hardly a solid basis for cherry-picking, don't you think?


If anyone could put their finger on the reason to why they would have by now. I can only offer my opinion.



That appears to me to be your problem, not ours or the league's.


NO NO!!!
We are all part of the one league.
My comments are made with the league in mind.
Your club is one of the few who are unwilling to progress at any decent rate.



This would be the same team who are arguing aganist being kicked out of the Premier? Real lack of ambition there. The same team who have consistently punched about their weight for the last 15 years? Real lack of ambition there. Of course's there's plans going forward, including a structure for full-time football. (Couldn't be bothered going into them in detail though, as it's the wrong thread and as you strike me as yet another of the closed-ears brigade.)


I am not closed to anything???
The facts are nobody knows of your plans except for you few and maybe that’s part of the reason you appear to lack ambition.
Lets hear the plans…

You said you had great plans for this new bowl idea too but when it comes down to it your looking at 1,500 seats !!
Amazing Stuff



Pure ignorance beginning to show through here, I'm afraid. There were plans in place - planning permission had been sought and achieved, in fact - for a full redevelopment of Belfield Park about 3 or 4 years ago. The first phase was a 1200-seater stand on the hill, with changing rooms, hospitality area, etc. There were three other phases in place as well. Then the college decided it wanted the land to build a new facility, so we had to ditch our plans and row in with the college's. So yes, it is the college's fault.


Explain all this to John and co.
If he is feeling sorry for you, you may get an extra few points…

Probably bring along some guy to play the violin while your telling him the story..



Given your recent financial trouble, that should be your aim.

That recent financial trouble was sorted and we are now moving on as a club. Everyone has had problems in the past and if Shels did fold it wouldn’t be the first club to ever do so. It may be a live by the sword die by the sword attitude you would not be happy with but I for one really enjoyed singing my heart out on the steps of the Riazor Stadium in the Champions League when we were 0-0 with Deportivo after 135 mins of football…
In fact Croatia was a really nice place too and I had never been to Lille either.

If you want I can send a postcard from Lithuania

You look forward to surviving and let the rest of us enjoying living life.

I agree you can take the above 'living by the sword….' to its limits and that’s not a good thing but you have to take some risks in football.

[pineapple stu]

If anyone could put their finger on the reason to why they would have by now. I can only offer my opinion.
Well, I'm convinced so. Let's all move ahead with this ridiculous idea on the basis of a vague hunch that no-one can put their finger on despite 12 pages of trying.


NO NO!!!
We are all part of the one league.
My comments are made with the league in mind.
Exactly the reason why you can't screw over a couple of small clubs for the benefit of the big ones.


The facts are nobody knows of your plans except for you few and maybe that’s part of the reason you appear to lack ambition.
I hardly think it's surprising few people outside of the club have heard of the club's plans. It's not exactly everyday conversation, is it? The fact we keep ourselves to ourselves doesn't mean we don't have a plan in place. I don't know of Shelbourne's precise plans going forward - for getting a ground, for sorting out their debts, etc. Doesn't mean they don't exist. I noted before that this isn't the thread for discussing UCD's plans. If you want to take things off topic, open a new thread elsewhere.


You said you had great plans for this new bowl idea too but when it comes down to it you're looking at 1,500 seats !!
Amazing Stuff
Who said we had "great" plans? We have plans. They're a big improvement on present. Is that not acceptable?


That recent financial trouble was sorted and we are now moving on as a club.
Of course it is. Gone away, never to resurface.


don’t for one second think Shels will win the Champions League but EVERY SEASON lads EVERY FECKING SEASON you are at this.
Are you not sick of it yourselves?
Do you want to ask Bray fans about their club's plans to win the Premier next year? Or Harps? Or Waterford or Bohs or Sligo or Rovers or Athlone or Limerick? Or all the other clubs who know they aren't going to win the league next year but still have plans in place? Is "Win the league" the only plan you can comprehend? If so, you have absolutely no clue about the bigger football picture.


Eh!!! You may have not noticed this being a UCD fan but there is a massive difference in gate money between playing a well dupported Dublin team and a not so well supported Dublin team
If we're going to discuss Dublin teams costing other Dublin teams money, will we bring up how long it took you to pay us? You try and screw us out of E20k and you're worried about lost revenue from maybe 100 Galway* fans?

* - Not a dig at Galway. Just wanted an example of a team possibly to come up, but not Rovers as a Dublin team.

[Bald Student]

Lets hear the plans…Here you are, though I think I've given you the link before.
http://www.dlrcoco.ie/planning/planlist/2006/APES14.htm

There was a pre-planning meeting in the county council two months or so ago about bringing the total capacity up to 4,400 seats within 5 years but I can't find a link to anything other than a low resolution map. If I do stumble across the diagrams I'll post them up though.

[Bald Student]

There's to be a playoff between 11th in the premier and 2nd in the first for who will be ranked 12th or 13th gaining the winner 1 point. Even worse, in the very likely scenario that one or both teams aren't within a ranking point of the team above or below them in the 200 points for the current season, it will make no difference at all to their overall score because in that section it's the ranking and not the overall score that counts.

This has the potential to be one of the most pointless end of season game in football's history.


At the end of 2006 playing season, clubs will be allocated ‘competition points’ on the basis of
their League standings and performances in FAI & League Cups and Europe. When the total
‘competition points’ accrued by each club is tallied, they will be ranked accordingly – the club
with the highest number of competition points is ranked 1, with the club with the lowest number
of competition points ranked 22 for the purposes of the IAG process.

League: Premier Division League winners receive 22 points, runners-up 21 points reducing on a
point per position down to 1 point for bottom place in the 1st Division.

Last place finisher in Premiership in regular season will be ‘relegated’ => ranked #14 in league
standings and allocated 9pts
1st Division winner will be ‘Promoted’ => ranked #11 in league standings and allocated 12pts

Club finishing 11th in Premier will play off against 1st Division runners up.
Winners of the play off will be finish #12 in League standings and gain 11pts
Losers of the play off will be ranked 13th and allocated 10pts.

[Roverstillidie]

does anyone who doesnt support ucd have any objections to this plan?

[John83]

does anyone who doesnt support ucd have any objections to this plan?
There's been a number of them posting here already. :rolleyes:

[Roverstillidie]

There's been a number of them posting here already. :rolleyes:

have they? must have got lost in 17 pages of 4 UCD fans telling us all the world will end if this proposal comes to fruition.

[Dodge]

does anyone who doesnt support ucd have any objections to this plan?
I do. Hugely. Can't believe anybody wants to put the game we love in the hands of the FAI. An organistation who have show themselves capable of doing NOTHING correctly and who have shown ZERO interest in our league previously (the head of this organistion was always involved when a memebr of the league reached its lowest point)

Oh and calling it the Premiership and Championship is/are pathetic. Truly poor decision.

[Mr A]

I object to the return to a ten team premier, and to the vagueness of the points system for next year. I think the 5 year record is a bit of a joke and that the football side should be based on this year only, despite the fact that that doesn't suit Harps at all. The plan has plenty of good points, but unless clarified completely and executed transparently could descend into total farce.

[thejollyrodger]

Shelbourne eh? This the same Shelbourne who on completing a league and cup double in 2001 attracted 900 people for their first home game the following season against newly promoted Bray who brought over 200 fans to the game?
This the same club that brought 100 fans to Flancare park for a possible title deciding game in 2004?

The same club that attracted 24,000 supporters for a champions league game. Whats your highest attendence ?

[DmanDmythDledge]

The same club that attracted 24,000 supporters for a champions league game.
You wouldn't get that for a Premier game. Anyway a lot of those were only there because of the occassion and weren't actually Shels fans.

[sullanefc]

You wouldn't get that for a Premier game. Anyway a lot of those were only there because of the occassion and weren't actually Shels fans.

At least they got them in. They got to see an eircom league side play, and who knows, some may have been converted.

It'll be a cold day in hell when UCD get 24,000 in to watch them.

[Student Mullet]

It'll be a cold day in hell when UCD get 24,000 in to watch them.I'm pretty sure more than that saw us loose to Everton in 1984 and that was only the cup winners cup!

[CollegeTillIDie]

At least they got them in. They got to see an eircom league side play, and who knows, some may have been converted.

It'll be a cold day in hell when UCD get 24,000 in to watch them.

We got 23,500 in May 1995 in Lansdowne Road for a game with Liverpool to celebrate our Centenary ! We were just crowned First Division Champions too for the record.

[OneRedArmy]

Thankfully the Eircom League/FAI is (somewhat) of a democracy so this issue won`t be decided by four UCD fans dissecting internet posts for fun.
It might seem unfair, but its not the UN Security Council, nobody gets a veto.
I think we all know the FAI will dangle enough carrots in front of clubs to swing the vote by a whisker.

[Student Mullet]

Thankfully the Eircom League/FAI is (somewhat) of a democracy so this issue won`t be decided by four UCD fans dissecting internet posts for fun.
It might seem unfair, but its not the UN Security Council, nobody gets a veto.
I think we all know the FAI will dangle enough carrots in front of clubs to swing the vote by a whisker.I don't agree there either, I recon the vote will probably pass comfortably enough. If nothing else, the FAI are good at playing politics, they wouldn't propose the vote if it wasn't going to pass.

It should be noted though that one of the proposals is to end the democratic nature of the league. The FAI will have executive power from here on in.

[Dodge]

The same club that attracted 24,000 supporters for a champions league game. Whats your highest attendence ?
Leave Deportivo out of it.

[pete]

Home Farm rent grounds almost on month to month basis. Theres no problem renting a ground if have long term lease like most clubs.

[Ronnie]

I have read it and don't see how its going to improve the situation. Starting point for this is that EL clubs lost 3m or so. Does anyone think after reading this proposal that the FAI have shown us how we will bridge that gap?
Some ideas are good undobtedly, but I wouldnt agree to it because the prize fund for winners is now 225000 - only one club can get that each year.

Bottom line is that this will automatically increase clubs expenditure
1. You must have two senior teams and an u20 team and your underage sides.
2. It will cost 7k more to be in the league
3. Promotions officer will costs the clubs a minimum of 30k

All the extra income is in prizemoney (except for the 10k promotions).

If you take the 65% of turnover, and you must increase your squad from 20 to 30 to have 2 adult teams with coaching staff etc. Say your club turnover is 1m, that gives 650000 for wages and taxes, or basically 12k a week. Based on 30 people thats 400 gross average. Or 20000 a year (considering that top players ear well over 100k) are we talking about slashing everyones wages in the league?

If you are a wealthy club (relative to others I mean) and you are at 2m in current expenditure they will be expected to invest 700k in non team expenses. Corks, Shels and Drogs could end up spending more on non wage expenses than it takes to run over half the clubs!

[wws]

- ten team prem is too small - the over familiarity definitely bred contempt last time - reflected in a a general decline in attendances - the same teams, same games over and over - sometimes in close proximity to previous fixtures or cup meetings switched off even diehards - and the games themselves had a staleness about them - big mistake

- the 65% of turnover on wages seems to be unenforceable in practice

- the name changes are ludicrous - why don't we call it the Seria A1 or Lá Liga?

- UCD and Dublin City are in the Prem on merit - clubs in the first division bring nothing to a new league format that these two teams do not have and should not be allowed leap frog them just because they have 50 or 60 more supporters at games. The very fact that they have been bypassed by two clubs operating on meagre resources and poor support tells you all you need to know about the so called "potential" of these so called "bigger" clubs currently deservedly languishing in the second tier. Let them come up on merit and stay up the hard way - surely the acid test of whether they are truly viable footballing entities - all the evidence suggests they are not and rewarding their incompetence with wishey washey criteria for promotion is encouraging yet more mediocrity not "progressing the league"

[Breifne]

- ten team prem is too small - the over familiarity definitely bred contempt last time - reflected in a a general decline in attendances - the same teams, same games over and over - sometimes in close proximity to previous fixtures or cup meetings switched off even diehards - and the games themselves had a staleness about them - big mistake

- the 65% of turnover on wages seems to be unenforceable in practice

- the name changes are ludicrous - why don't we call it the Seria A1 or Lá Liga?

- UCD and Dublin City are in the Prem on merit - clubs in the first division bring nothing to a new league format that these two teams do not have and should not be allowed leap frog them just because they have 50 or 60 more supporters at games. The very fact that they have been bypassed by two clubs operating on meagre resources and poor support tells you all you need to know about the so called "potential" of these so called "bigger" clubs currently deservedly languishing in the second tier. Let them come up on merit and stay up the hard way - surely the acid test of whether they are truly viable footballing entities - all the evidence suggests they are not and rewarding their incompetence with wishey washey criteria for promotion is encouraging yet more mediocrity not "progressing the league"

A nominee for POTM

[John83]

have they? must have got lost in 17 pages of 4 UCD fans telling us all the world will end if this proposal comes to fruition. Oh, I'm shocked. You didn't even read what we had to say, did you? It's just UCD whining, so it can't have any merit.

We've repeatedly asked a simple question: how does the cherry picking of teams help the league? I haven't read an answer to my satisfaction. I, and as far as I can tell, all of the other UCD fans who've contributed to this debate, have no objection to wage capping, infrastructural development or any of a whole raft of sensible suggestions here. Though frankly, the following, which I wasn't aware of, gives me substantial cause for concern:

It should be noted though that one of the proposals is to end the democratic nature of the league. The FAI will have executive power from here on in. Much like I voted no in the citizenship referendum because I don't believe that the Dáil should have the power to redefine citizenship through legislation, I would oppose the proposal on that one point alone.

Other fans have other concerns:

I have read it and don't see how its going to improve the situation.
Can't believe anybody wants to put the game we love in the hands of the FAI.
I object to the return to a ten team premier, and to the vagueness of the points system for next year. I think the 5 year record is a bit of a joke...
However i don't see much in the FAI proposals that will transform irish football in a dramatic manner.
My only problem with the entire process is that fact that although the FAI are trying to paint the picture of a (50/50) on-field / off-field balance. Its closer to a three way split (20/30/50) current on-field / historic on-field / off-field balance.
...
Also there is mention of using historic (last 2 years) attendance figures as part of the criteria. UCD, Finn Harps, Bray, Dublin City, Sligo Rovers have all spent time in the first division in that period.

The whole thing is not looking so FAIR now is it???
...you can't pick and choose which teams you would like in the league next season.
Ha, you can all call me ambitionless & a moaner & blah blah blah but in my opinion you're all living in a eL dreamworld.

This new shakeup will not bring bigger crowds or generate more interest.
I'd forgotton about this point - absolutely ridiculous. The Setanta Cup needs the best teams, and the 4th place should stay with the LC Winners.
i don't think the league cup deserves such a high rating(8) compared to fai cup(10)... i think the 1st division setanta cup place is daft, promotion is enough reward&the financial implications of starting your season 4 weeks earlier cud f*ck up a newly promoted club...
And this is the scientific part of the team ranking. I call shenannigans.
I don't like it. Promotion and Relegation should only be decided on performances on the pitch this season. Most of the off the pitch criteria is far too subjective, and sneakily concocted so the FAI can pick and choose who they want - it absolutely stinks.
Sorry will nail my colours to the mast and say this won't work.

Firstly does anyone think the FAI will do this right given their track record. I don't and as soon as the buzz dies off, the league will be left rot again. Delaney and Co want a super league, full time pro. increased attendance etc yet have not given any indication on how they will achieve this.

Next the wage cap. I agree its needed to force clubs to run their affairs right. However I have no confidence the FAI will enforce it and we will still see clubs spending far more than they have got. What happens then?

Next on the 50% for football, clubs like Bohs/Rovers etc will get points for spending money they never had over the last 5 years while clubs who ran their affairs right won't. Rovers for example point out it was not them but the old board but will not benefit greatly for those actions.

As for future plan, well we hope to have a brand new 10,000 seater stadium and €25m in the bank. Makes us, in theory, the biggest club in the land. However given planning etc it might never happen. How do the FAI decide how realistic plans are or not?

Next I have no doubt this will end up in court, does that do the league any good? Can't see how it will.

- ten team prem is too small - the over familiarity definitely bred contempt last time - reflected in a a general decline in attendances - the same teams, same games over and over - sometimes in close proximity to previous fixtures or cup meetings switched off even diehards - and the games themselves had a staleness about them - big mistake

- the 65% of turnover on wages seems to be unenforceable in practice

- the name changes are ludicrous - why don't we call it the Seria A1 or Lá Liga?

- UCD and Dublin City are in the Prem on merit - clubs in the first division bring nothing to a new league format that these two teams do not have and should not be allowed leap frog them just because they have 50 or 60 more supporters at games. The very fact that they have been bypassed by two clubs operating on meagre resources and poor support tells you all you need to know about the so called "potential" of these so called "bigger" clubs currently deservedly languishing in the second tier. Let them come up on merit and stay up the hard way - surely the acid test of whether they are truly viable footballing entities - all the evidence suggests they are not and rewarding their incompetence with wishey washey criteria for promotion is encouraging yet more mediocrity not "progressing the league"


The same club that attracted 24,000 supporters for a champions league game. Whats your highest attendence ?
I'm pretty sure more than that saw us loose to Everton in 1984 and that was only the cup winners cup! A mere 10,000 from here (http://www.soccerbase.com/results3.sd?gameid=153). Figures from one-off matches mean squat. Most of that 24,000 weren't Shels fans. The number of LoI fans who payed in to support the league is staggering. I doubt you would see that sort of good will in England. Throw in a bunch of non LoI fans who wanted to see Deportivo too. That figure has no meaning at all. It'll be a cold day in hell before anyone in this league gets 10,000 to a league game, much less 24,000.

[WeAreRovers]

- UCD and Dublin City are in the Prem on merit - clubs in the first division bring nothing to a new league format that these two teams do not have and should not be allowed leap frog them just because they have 50 or 60 more supporters at games.

OK, I'll bite - Ask the financial types at any club, particularly Dublin clubs, and they'll tell you the difference Rovers make to the Premier as against UCD or Dublin City.

Couple of examples - there were more in attendance at the Dublin City v Rovers 2nd Leg play-off than had paid in to see Dublin City all season. 300 Rovers in Castlebar on Sunday, 700 in Monaghan, 800 in Kildare. Should I go on or merely point out that UCD and Dublin City would have to play each other nearly 10 times to reach the numbers we brought to Kildare for example.

Wishful thinking by fans of smaller clubs won't have any effect on the new set-up and the King Canute-like bleatings on this thread won't change a thing.

KOH

[Poor Student]

OK, I'll bite - Ask the financial types at any club, particularly Dublin clubs, and they'll tell you the difference Rovers make to the Premier as against UCD or Dublin City.



I'm sure Sligo would love a Premier Division consisting of Harps, Derry and Galway. I'm sure Cork would love Limerick and Waterford. Longford might want Athlone there. It's not the divine right of Dublin clubs to have their biggest local rivals there to boost their attendances nor is it the right of any other clubs. You could sit down and work out the 10 clubs who will yield the optimal average attendance figures and form your league if you like. Is that what you're interested in football for? Maybe it is, and if that's the case I just won't be seeing eye to eye with anyone who thinks along those lines. Myself, I prefer fair competition based on what happens on the pitch.

[Raheny Red]

The same club that attracted 24,000 supporters for a champions league game. Whats your highest attendence ?

Unfortunately it was Depor who attracted this lot and many of them were never to be seen again...............

[Jerry The Saint]

does anyone who doesnt support ucd have any objections to this plan?

UCD fans are loudest in their objections because they are the established club who are most obviously at risk of being arbitrarily demoted. Other clubs like Sligo and Limerick are also in danger of missing out on a rightful place in the Premier Division (I don't want to dignify the name the FAI have come up with by using it - it's a clear sign of the amount of genuine thought they have put into these plans).

My main problem is with the people responsible for implementing this decision. Given the history, I can't see the FAI (and Niall Quinn) doing a better job of picking who gets to play in the top division than basing it on who are the best clubs at playing football.

Not to mention the ridiculous criteria - full of things like giving equal weight to progressing from the 1st to the 2nd round of the league cup as to finishing 1st or 2nd in the Premier. Already the indications are that the FAI have done their sums wrong and made many mistakes in the preliminary results presented to clubs.

We've also seen the typical FAI spin that the media eagerly lap up and repeat as fact without checking - "Steve Staunton was Walsall Assistant Manager"/"50% will be based on league performance".

Some of us are also fed up with the continuous "We have to give it a try, sure what harm can it do" mentality -

16-team league
12-team league
4 points for a win
Top 6/Bottom 6
10-team league
Summer Soccer
12-team league
Prim-Eire League
10-team league, etc.

Despite what some have said, it's not backwards thinking to say hang on a minute before rushing headlong into some new untested, unwanted format. There seems to be an idea out there that the Irish public are just dying to rush down to their local ground - "A standard league-based competition with promotion/relegation based on merit? No, that's not for me, if only they had a new and exciting format!".

Things that would improve the league:
- An effective co-ordinated marketing campaign; never been done apart from a few cheapo efforts - get eircom and RTE off their arse to take up the slack on this (e.g. GUINNESS Hurling championship/HEINEKEN Cup)
- stricter enforcement of financial responsibility; through proper UEFA licensing, salary caps, etc. If organised properly this will eliminate the unsustainable clubs naturally - if Home Farm or Shelbourne or UCD or whoever are prevented from spending beyond their means they will either need to increase income/attendances or they will get relegated through poor performance (SRFC last season; Waterford, possibly, this year)

There's some obsession in the FAI that you have to make drastic changes to the 'product' before you are allowed to relaunch it. Otherwise there's just no point marketing it. The FA Premier League did not get Gary Lineker to look over each team's results in the Littlewoods Cup or attempt to limit the number of clubs in the capital before their spectacularly successful relaunch. It's not the competion's name that the FAI should be copying!

[wws]

arbitrary and spurious are the two words that characterise this whole mooted process


anyway in reply to WAR:

300 Rovers in Castlebar on Sunday, 700 in Monaghan, 800 in Kildare.

Bringing those sort of crowds do not make you more viable as a footballing entity, or more worthy of a place in a top tier than UCD or Dublin City. You seem to imply that 800 in Kildare or 300 at Castlebar is some sort of financial windfall. Its not - its peanuts in the general scheme of things. Eircom League clubs do NOT meet their costs via attendances - and LETS FACE REALITY HERE - never fcking will even in the sooopa doopa 'premiership' - where crowds will remain static or fall in my view due to the ten team nature of the format.

Calling it the "Premiership" and hoping 300 becomes 3,000 is just plain stupid. In an ideal world I'd want Shamrock Rovers or Limerick or whatever in instead of Dublin City in the top flight - but only if they win through on footballing criteria on a level playing field - which is more than possible even this season. Creating the spurious criteria is actually anti-football and should be opposed by all true football fans. Its the latest in a long line of failed quick fixes that will have us back at square one.

UCD are another completely unique footballing set up in my view - they bring something to the league that has a value beyond figures at the gate or a shiny new stadium, in terms of player development this league as a whole owes a lot to UCD's unique status over the years. The fact that they have survived in the top flight so long is again testament to the fact that other clubs have failed to capitalise on catchment areas and better situations. I dont think leap frogging them will improve this situation - it rewards incompetance and when incompetance is rewarded it flourishes

[monutdfc]

Will the FAI + Niall Quinn just decide the initial make-up of the top division and will there be promotion/relegation as normal thereafter, or no promotion/relegation thereafter, or will the "criteria" be used to decide promotion/relegation for ever more?

[Mr A]

monutdfc- the criteria apply for only one year, then it's back to good old fashioned promotion and relegation. Except this time they're going to enforce licensing.

Which if they'd taken seriously the first time round would have avoided the need for this arbitrary crap for next year.

[higgins]

Most of that 24,000 weren't Shels fans. The number of LoI fans who payed in to support the league is staggering. I doubt you would see that sort of good will in England. Throw in a bunch of non LoI fans who wanted to see Deportivo too. That figure has no meaning at all. It'll be a cold day in hell before anyone in this league gets 10,000 to a league game, much less 24,000.

Thats the spirit lads !!!

Why dont you put a cap on the gates??
Lets say the first 83 in and then the gates close...

Whats the whole point in trying to do something that may make things better anyway.

Sure then you'd have nothing to complain about :rolleyes:

[NY Hoop]

Having fans as opposed to having no fans means you are a footballing entity. Having fans at games means atmosphere, means players will be seen, it is what the game is all about not playing in front of a couple of dozen people. It is soul destroying to see figures of less than a hundred at a game. I've seen it.

I agree that a place in the premier should be decided on the pitch though. But I have asked before and will ask again: What is the alternative?

Take out the premier**** and the off field criteria for promotion and it is a good document for the league.

Last monday nights farce has to be the final nail in the coffin in terms of standing still. What is the point in having clubs in the league, premier and the first who do not have any fans? And I dont include UCD in that as they are worth their place in the league.

CHF deserved their promotion last season no question but what is the point in them being there? Ditto monaghan?


KOH

[monutdfc]

NYHoop, you would have said the same thing about Longford less than 10 years ago. Legend has it that there were 50 people in attendance at Stephen Kenny's first game in charge of Longford Town.

[NY Hoop]

NYHoop, you would have said the same thing about Longford less than 10 years ago. Legend has it that there were 50 people in attendance at Stephen Kenny's first game in charge of Longford Town.

Difference is when they got promoted their crowds increased. Yours didnt despite the fact that their ground is further from the town. Same with CHF zero increase in crowds since they went up. Like I said no point being there then.

KOH

[Schumi]

Take out the premier**** and the off field criteria for promotion and it is a good document for the league.
Agreed so why not do that?

[Jerry The Saint]

Difference is when they got promoted their crowds increased. Yours didnt despite the fact that their ground is further from the town. Same with CHF zero increase in crowds since they went up. Like I said no point being there then.

KOH

Shamrock attendances in the Premier were no bigger than their First Division crowds. Might as well leave them where they are so. ;)

[dcfcsteve]

Should point that that's a no-brainer. No-body's saying we - or any other club - don't want to improve. Just that we shouldn't be punished for improving at a different rate to others.

This is the cruz here PS. Given the limited crowds/potential etc of UCD, you'll always be moving at a slower rate than other Premier Division clubs (bar Dublin City), and arguably slower than any other clubs in the league full-stop.

To use the aul cliche - the league will only be as strong as its weakest team.
Our league is currently very weak on every aspect. Experience has shown that most teams will not improve their off-the-pitch set-up to any significant degree without some form of compulsion/incentive to do so. Hence why there are ongoing plans to address this - like Licensing.

This will be an ongoing process. For example, currently you need 1,500 seats for a premier stadium. The new proposal from the FAI now mandates 3,000. In a couple of years it will most probably rise to 4,000 or 5,000. It may go even higher after that.

If a team is not not keeping up with everyone else then it is clear that only one of 2 things can happen :

1) The rules punish you for this
Your percieved saviour of licensing will do this to you sooner or later through off-the-pitch criteria such as the number of seats in your stadium.

2) The rules themselves are deliberately pegged at a level that doesnt punish the likes of Dublin City and UCD - hence holding the league as a whole back.
If we have to demand a lower than desired rate of improvements to ensure that the weakest clubs don't get relegated for their infrastructure, then it is to be fully expected that the rest of the league will therefore be held-back by this decision.

This is the cruz of the situation PS. The writing appears to be on the wall - at some point or other small clubs like UCD and Dublin City will fall-foul of the ambitions of the rest of the league. This is purely because these small clubs does not have the finances or support base to have anything beyond the most basic of facilities.

Your club can pretend that this won't be the case, and cling-on desperately and try to scupper this inevitability. Or it can read what's written on the wall and get on with keeping up with everyone else. The fact that you are proposing to build a new stadium with only 1,500 seats - the current bare minimum - suggests that the will is not there to keep-up. If your stadium plans had any forsight whatsoever, a higher number of seats would've been included now for the inevitable increase in the minimum requirement that will eventually happen. If you always implement the bare minimum then you will be holding the league as a whole back. And sooner or later you will be punished for this. The same end result as you fear is being proposed in the current FAI proposal.

The writing is on the wall......

[micls]

It'll be a cold day in hell before anyone in this league gets 10,000 to a league game, much less 24,000.

City and Derry last season would have gotten closer to the second figure if there had been room.

I know this was a once off and title decider but it shows people will turn out if its exciting enough. There were a good few converts from that game id say

[monutdfc]

When we were first promoted under Billy Bagster we were competitive in the premier and our crowds increased. Last time we were promoted we were 10 game sin before we got our first win, by which time crowds had fallen off. Longford Town were competitive when they got promoted and had a good cup run which helps massively in retaining support. In terms of population, catchment area and dominance of the gaa there are a lot of comparisons between Longford and Monaghan. Put it like this, if Stephen Kenny had've been appointed Monaghan United manager things could have been whole lot different. I have huge admiration for Longford Town and they give us something to aspire to.
(BTW, 2 more Monaghan United schoolboys selected for an internatinal squad this week, another former schoolboy given a professional contract in the UK and another former senior player in the Ireland squad last week. You're right, we shouldn't exist.)

[higgins]

monutdfc- the criteria apply for only one year, then it's back to good old fashioned promotion and relegation. Except this time they're going to enforce licensing.

Which if they'd taken seriously the first time round would have avoided the need for this arbitrary crap for next year.

Now that is a good post..

Things will be back to normal one year on and if the small changes don't bring about a change in attitude to the now non EL fan then you can go back to the premiership clash of Dublin City v UCD with the other 82 people.

A whole lot of crap over something that's not going to be around in two years time.

They are trying to get clubs with enough fans and enough decent players that the atmosphere will be decent for those who turn up and maybe they may come back.

There is no point having great marketing and pumping money into the product if the guy who has never been to a EL game before decides to get up off his arse and brings the kids down to Dalymount to be faced with 80 other people who can shout around the ground to each other as the game goes on ??

I'll say it again as UCD and Dublin City fans seem to ignore this…

THE FAI ARE TRYING TO CHANGE THE ATTITUDE TOWARDS THE EL !!

They will have a much better chance of kick starting something if they have clubs who are willing to progress and who can potentially bring big numbers to games.

Your not looking at this with the EL in mind.

If it fails and your as well run as you all think then you will be back up soon enough as you are all aiming for the minimum standards set out in the Club Licence.
There you go no problem!!! Drama over …

Instead of playing in front of 83 to Kildare you can play in front of 83 to Dublin City.

[wws]

so every game is a title play off?!
The air of unreality surrounding attendances - their significance in terms of running costs is astounding on this board.

Everyone lives in a dreamworld of fantasy attendances - or 'if only ucd and dublin werent there' - than we'd have a few thousand at EVERY game. BullshÍt

[NY Hoop]

When we were first promoted under Billy Bagster we were competitive in the premier and our crowds increased. Last time we were promoted we were 10 game sin before we got our first win, by which time crowds had fallen off. Longford Town were competitive when they got promoted and had a good cup run which helps massively in retaining support. In terms of population, catchment area and dominance of the gaa there are a lot of comparisons between Longford and Monaghan. Put it like this, if Stephen Kenny had've been appointed Monaghan United manager things could have been whole lot different. I have huge admiration for Longford Town and they give us something to aspire to.
(BTW, 2 more Monaghan United schoolboys selected for an internatinal squad this week, another former schoolboy given a professional contract in the UK and another former senior player in the Ireland squad last week. You're right, we shouldn't exist.)

Well we'll have to disagree cos I was there in 93 and it was a bad crowd. I never said you should'nt exist just that you'd be better served if you went back to junior ball. Junior clubs regularly have players selected for Ireland.

KOH

[Mr A]

This will be an ongoing process. For example, currently you need 1,500 seats for a premier stadium. The new proposal from the FAI now mandates 3,000. In a couple of years it will most probably rise to 4,000 or 5,000. It may go even higher after that.

I don't think it does Steve. It says-

Considerations here to include Safe-holding (min. 3,000)Unencumbered access – Ownership / long term lessee / no. covered seats / plans re infrastructure development etc

Which seems to say that while having covered seating is desirable, it's not an actual requirement.

[Poor Student]

Dcfcsteve, I emphasise again, pragmatism and reality must be adopted. Just because an arbitrary number of 1,500 seats or 3,000 is set, that does not mean one has no ambition if they realise that in itself is more than the club needs. The SPL introduced minimum seating numbers which were too large for the reality of clubs. Falkirk fell victim to this on a couple of occasions and eventually the number had to be reduced to allow a proper flow of relegation and promotion to take place. Inverness Caledonian Thistle, a club who would not have made it under the old rules, are now one of the most progressive and well run clubs in the SPL. If we have the sense of reality to know all we need is 1,500 I consider that a good thing. No need to build a Colesseum if no one will come. The fact that we will build a 1,500 seater does not hold Derry back. You're free to do as you please (well if you can sort out the council stuff).

[Poor Student]

Higgins, you're living in a dream world, a reckless one at that. You'll arbitrarily relegate clubs for the craic and have a wee look at what happens, and if nothing does, sure why not, no harm done. Wrong. These changes are another in a long line of querks and quick fixes implemented by the authorities that have done nothing for the game as vividly pointed out by wws. You think someone may have randomly turned up to Dub City v UCD and been put off eL for life? Come on. There are more than enough big games in the Premier Division not to turn someone off if they're that fickle.