FAI proposals for future of Eircom League...

[placid casual]

having been a regular reader of this forum for awhile and a member for half of that time I can confirm that there is some real whingin posters on here.
and its getting worse.
every team seems to have one i guess

[pól-dcfc]

every team seems to have one i guess

One? This place is full of them. But to be fair it makes it a much more interesting forum when people whinge over everything.

[Magicme]

I apologise if I was sounding whingy....am just gutted that I officially have no work until tuesday as of 5 mins ago.

[pineapple stu]

paranoid :eek:

This whole thing has yet to start and your talking about suiting other teams ..

The conspiracy theorists on here would need to catch themsleves on sometimes. It really isn't healthy......
Once again, I would point out that I explicitly said I wasn't concerned about conspiracy theories, but rather the whole (a) unfairness of the scheme, (b) vague voting system and (c) incompetence of the FAI to administer it in a matter which will keep it out of the courts. sullanefc was the one who brought up conspiracy theories ("This would dispel much of the accusations from UCD fans that the FAI are trying to make out the scoring system to suit certain teams."); I merely responded (and thus entered the conspiracy theory debate) by saying that (a) I hadn't been saying there was a system to suit certain teams and (b) even if there were, sullane's argument was still nonsense. I made one comment about how it was rather interesting Shels were the one team to benefit - that was tongue-in-cheek, if it needs to be spelt out. We're all big boys here - surely we can grasp meaning without the use of smiley faces every few lines?

Of course, people will always say what suits their own argument...

[sullanefc]

Of course, people will always say what suits their own argument...

yourself included ;)

[pineapple stu]

Proof of this being where?

[chippie0001]

Surely Shels since they have announced they are leaving Tolka should be scored on their new ground, not their old one. Thats why I asked what exactly the plans are. It would be very unfair to be allowed into the league on a basis of using Tolka when everyone knows they won't be there.

[dcfcsteve]

It's not about conspiracy theories, it's about blatant incompetence!

Really.....? :


Especially the FAI seem to have some fixation with the FAI getting Shelbourne to the top of the table.


: The FAI MUST publish the full breakdown of how they have fudged their own criteria to put Shels on top

And that's only a limited selection.....

[Jerry The Saint]

Really.....? :





And that's only a limited selection.....

OK, so it's about blatant incompetence AND conspiracy theories. :D

Still don't see where you get your confidence in the FAI to administer these proposals and usher in a shiny, happy new era of fun and wonderment, given past experience and the way they've handled it in the past few days.

[dcfcsteve]

Am finally getting the chance to respond to your posting below now PS.


Looks like we were just getting some intelligent debate going when higgins (who is clearly either an idiot/a WUM/both, so I'm not even going to waste time replying to his "issues") and dcfcsteve (who is just plain deluded) pipe up. Rather unfortunate timing, to be honest.

Last time I looked, this was a web forum. Where people come and post their views on things. Mostly football.

I have presented perfectly coherent and well-structured arguements for what I see happening in Irish football at the moment. You disagree with them - which is your right. But rather than tackle me solely, or even primarily, on the issues concerned - you instead seek to belittle either me or my points. It's clearly the UCD fans who are most animated in this discussion - and rightly so. But the other UCD fans seem able to engage in the debate without having to resort to belittling the poster or their viewpoint. We disagree on something. That doesn't necessarily mean either of us is "deluded" or making "unintelligble points". Understand that, and deal with it.


What's a cruz when it's at home? Dictionary.com defines it as a "Mexican nun and poet noted for her love lyrics, courtly tributes, satires, and plays as well as theological writings on the role of women in the Roman Catholic church."

Well done you on spotting what was obviously a typo. No really - well done. 'Let he who is without typo, cast the first stone....' . If only we could all be as type-perfect as you.


(b) The new proposal mandates 3000 capacity, which you compare to 1500 seats. There's an important distinction which you are choosing to ingore as it doesn't fit your argument. The capacity criterion will not "most probably rise" in "a couple of years" to 4000 or 5000. There is no basis for such an increase. You only think there is because you're comparing seated capacity and safe capacity, which we have seen are different things. In addition, capacity can't increase quicker than it can be built, which we have already seen from various clubs' plans is longer than a couple of years. Further, there is absolutely no reason to believe that attendances at any club will necessitate such an increase in "a couple of years".

The premise of a lot of the UCD arguement on here is one that Irish football is the way it is now, and that's what we should be planning for. It's labelled as 'reality' or 'pragmatism'. However - whilst none of us can understandably predict the future, it would be naive to think that standards both on and off the pitch in Ireland won't get stricter, in both the medium and long terms. This is where the writing is on the wall. Licensing and this FAI plan are not one-offs in a vacuum - they are part of an ongoing process of mandating improved standards in our game. If we all only work with the current situation in-mind, then surprise, surprise - the current situation will largely prevail.

As for the point on attendances - that's a whole post on it's own, so I'll come back to that later.


You know, I wasn't convinced of your "argument" before you started repeating itself, but now I've come around to your way of thinking. :rolleyes:

Tackle the issue - not the poster

[pineapple stu]

I have presented perfectly coherent and well-structured arguements for what I see happening in Irish football at the moment.
But you haven't. That's my point. No-one has pointed out why these proposals are to be interpreted as the panacea they're made out to be.

In particular, you refer to a "gut instinct" and nothing else. You make vague assertions about licencing being too slow - which we've seen it's not, given the unprecedented number of ground improvements at various stages of progress at the moment - without showing why this should be any quicker. You've failed to draw a direct link between UCD being small and Derry not improving at the rate they're capable of. You then resort to repeating your point in the hope of giving it extra gravitas ("The writing is on the wall"; a soundbyte you repeat in your post above) and moan when people point this out, saying we're attacking the poster, not the post when in fact we're quite clearly attacking the post. You've shown no pathway between the proposals and your vision, yet we should all accept the fact that some small clubs aren't good enough for your vision and should be relegated now to save us all the bother. You don't consider the implications of your vision failing, which is one of the fundamental questions to ask in any planning process.

In short, you have made no well-structured arguments for the proposal beyond some vague vision - those who consider this vision unreasonable are castigated for having no ambition to move forward - and some vague belief that the proposals will get you there somehow.


Well done you on spotting what was obviously a typo. No really - well done. 'Let he who is without typo, cast the first stone....' . If only we could all be as type-perfect as you.
I'll assume you missed the bit where I noted that that was a joke.:rolleyes:


The premise of a lot of the UCD arguement on here is one that Irish football is the way it is now, and that's what we should be planning for.
But Irish football is the way it is now, and that is what we should be planning for. However, you can't just take the "now" as being this instant in time and assume that nothing will ever change. Nobody's advocating that. "Now" is shaped by the future and the need to adapt. UCD - and other small clubs - are doing that. Your argument seems to be based on the notion that we're not adapting in the way you'd like.

There are so many issues with the proposal which you simply are choosing to ignore in your fight to belittle the number of seats we have. How can the FAI be trusted to carry out this proposal competently given their track record? Mistakes are being made already on the easy parts - how will they work out the hard bits without getting the game dragged up in court? Is it wise to let the FAI have total control of the game? This is an organisation headed by a person who's nearly destroyed one football club and with an honorary president who's nearly destroyed another. Why return to a ten-team league three seasons after the clubs themselves voted it out? Is it fair that only six clubs in the entire league will actually benefit from the prize money increase after taking increased league entry fees into account? The FAI have shown no ability to promote or even take an interest in the league before (look at ther website for example) - why should they be expected to do so now? There have been serious issues about favouritism in the league in general - are we prepared to abandon a democratic league for one which might be easily swung by certain club officials? Are we happy with the new league format being based on the Genesis Report, when it's been widely condemned and indeed dismissed by so many supporters here?

Those are the real issues. Please move on from the number of seats UCD have. If we fall foul of licencing, we'll fall foul. However, I don't see the rest of the league streaking away from us that quickly that we'll be that out of our depth for a long while.

[higgins]

:confused:

we have backed it up. there is a strong rumour out there that our pals mulden have set a date for you to leave tolka. they were the mystery investor and are cashing their chips.

the normal reaction from a normal fan when they hear something like that is to ask for a source or more details, publically or privately.

and then their is your reaction. :confused:

I've asked you all countless times.........
100's of posts at this stage and not a single one containing anything other than speculation and "strong rumour"

[manic da hoop]

I've asked you all countless times.........
100's of posts at this stage and not a single one containing anything other than speculation and "strong rumour"

Even if it is just rumour and speculation, are you not in the slightest bit concerned that such talk is circulating like this? As they say, there's no smoke without fire.

[higgins]

Surely Shels since they have announced they are leaving Tolka should be scored on their new ground, not their old one. Thats why I asked what exactly the plans are. It would be very unfair to be allowed into the league on a basis of using Tolka when everyone knows they won't be there.

and the planning permission for your new ground is where?

All you have that is differnet to Shels is you said you where moving to site that would hold X amount of people in a certain amount of years.

Sure if you want I will make a statement tomorrow saying shels are moving to St Stephens Green in a new 50,000 seater stadium.

Shels play in Tolka Park...
Get over it

Finn Harps have also announced they are moving as have Athlone as have Shamrock Rovers 67 times!!!

[higgins]

Even if it is just rumour and speculation, are you not in the slightest bit concerned that such talk is circulating like this? As they say, there's no smoke without fire.

I'm concerned with many things but not the postings of Shamrock Rovers fans on foot.ie is not one of them.

You can go around and act as if Shels fans dont know whats going on if you like, you've been doing that for years. I just find it funny that you have kept it up so long.

The D-Day senario has been painted a 1000 times by you lot in its various forms.

I've also found all of your previous scare stories to be lacking in facts or missing crucial information and I would imagine whatever it is your on about now to be the exact same.

It will be something else tomorrow and the day after and the day after.

It seems since your club started to go backwards a few seasons ago your more interested in the knocking of the BIG clubs then you are in the progress of your own :p

To recap!
Im concerned at what goes on at Shels but your ramblings dont really worry me.

[WeAreRovers]

and the planning permission for your new ground is where?

All you have that is differnet to Shels is you said you where moving to site that would hold X amount of people in a certain amount of years.

Sure if you want I will make a statement tomorrow saying shels are moving to St Stephens Green in a new 50,000 seater stadium.

Shels play in Tolka Park...
Get over it

Finn Harps have also announced they are moving as have Athlone as have Shamrock Rovers 67 times!!!

You just don't get it. You need to start DEMANDING solid answers to all the big questions from Ollie. If you don't get a satisfactory response you then need to mobilise and quickly. Otherwise you're club could disappear.

Believe it or not I've no wish to see Shels go out of business. I just hate to see football fans being taken for idiots by the fools who run their clubs. And I speak from bitter, bitter experience.

KOH

[higgins]

http://www.shelbournefc.ie/news.php?id=359

Well heres something to help you sleep a little easier tonight..
I hadnt realised you were that concerned ;)

[Billy Lord]

Higgins: I would respectfully suggest that the SSDG gets legal representation to look into the company/companies involved in Shels (and Tolka) and acts independently of the football club's current board.
I'm not saying you should treat Ollie and co as the enemy, but it is in your interests, and the club's interest, that you have a legal opinion for impartial guidance and information. Remember, that 20 quid a week is your money, and with even 50-100 members you would carry a lot of financial clout.

[WeAreRovers]

http://www.shelbournefc.ie/news.php?id=359

Well heres something to help you sleep a little easier tonight..
I hadnt realised you were that concerned ;)

Best of luck.

KOH

[passerrby]

higs when you say "BIG Clubs" do you mean the ones with the massive debts

[higgins]

NO

Im talking about the ones who have tried something new and are not happy to except the current standards.
The clubs who have made every effort possible over the past few seasons in order to drag Irish football up out of the gutter.

Its just annoying a handful of clubs are not willing to keep up.

Lets hope the FAI can change that.

[pineapple stu]

The clubs who have made every effort possible over the past few seasons in order to drag Irish football up out of the gutter.
As opposed to clubs who have made every possible effort to drag Irish football through the gutter?

It's just annoying a handful of clubs are not willing to make an effort.

Lets hope the FAI can change that.

Though I doubt it.

[higgins]

I would agree with you that the decisions Shels made have at times brought negative publicity to the league but I also think a lot of people out there can see what Shels were trying to do. Not in all cases but overall it’s a matter of principle and you cant let certain things past. I have great respect for the people in Tolka who were prepared to fight the corner of the EL. It may have been in their own interest but if every other club did the same thing we would be much better off for it.

The FAI would not implement their own rules..
You have made reference to that point many times.

Maybe if all clubs were willing to stand up and demand better then we would have a fully working league rule book.

Again NOT ALL decisions Shels made were correct but things had to get worse to get better.
Small issues regarding individual players are not what I am talking about. They happen all the time in other leagues and you don’t hear about it.

I think overall the EL is a better place today then it would be if nothing was said.

BTW

I have always always stated if Shels were found to be wrong in any of the rules that they should accept full punishment. Even if it came to being kicked out of the Premier or Points deductions. If you dont apply the rules of the rule book you cant get anywhere.

[Poor Student]

NO

Im talking about the ones who have tried something new and are not happy to except the current standards.
The clubs who have made every effort possible over the past few seasons in order to drag Irish football up out of the gutter.

Its just annoying a handful of clubs are not willing to keep up.

Lets hope the FAI can change that.

What exactly is this something new?