UEFA Euro 2024 Qualifying Group B

[elatedscum]

Lads we’re talking about arguably the two best sides in Europe. France are, in my opinion, clearly the best side in Europe. Both sides only lost on penalties to Argentina. Netherlands are among maybe 5 teams who are contenders for the second best team in Europe (Spain, Germany, Netherlands, England, Italy)

I imagine most are like me. We have the logical part of our brain which says we’d do very well to pick up any points against them and the passionate fan part which whispers “we could turn these lads over with a bit of luck”.

People have said (maybe just boom) that the French squad are in disarray. Who’s retired? Benzema, Lloris, Varane, Mandanda. Benzema didn’t make the WC due to injury. France were better with Konate than with Varane at the World Cup. And Lloris is long past his sell by date. Meanwhile they could have Pogba, Kante, Kimpembe, Nkunku and Fofana back from injury. If anything they’re likely to have a better squad than they had at the World Cup.

As for looking to that win against Germany? I was there that day. I was also in the stadium when we lost 6-1 in 2012. The away leg was a 3-0 loss. There’s been more bad days against elite opposition that good ones

Here’s an incomplete list of some of France’s elite players:

1. Pavard - Bayern
2. Kounde - Barcelona
3. Konate - Liverpool
4. Upamecano - Bayern
5. L Hernandez - Bayern
6. T Hernandez - AC Milan
7. Saliba - Arsenal
8. Mendy - Real Madrid
9. Tchoumani - Real Madrid
10. Kante - Chelsea
11. Pogba - Juve
12. Griezmann - Atleti
13. Mbappe - PSG
14. Coman - Bayern
15. Dembele - Bayern
16. Giroud - Milan
17. Nkunku - Leipzig

I tried to be fairly limited, excluding the likes of W Fofana, Rabiot, Thuram, Kamara, Digne, Kimpembe, Kolo Muani, Y Fofana. You could even argue that everyone on that second list is better than our best players

Meanwhile the Dutch have:

1. Van Dijk - Liverpool
2. Timber - Ajax
3. Ake - Man City
4. De Vrij - Inter
5. Botman - Newcastle
6. Malacia - United
7. De Jong - Barcelona
8. Wijnaldum - Roma
9. Gakpo - Liverpool
10. Depay - Atleti
11. Bergweijn - Arsenal
12. Weghorst - United
13. Malen - Dortmund

Anyway - it’ll be fun but it’s pretty daunting and you couldn’t have mapped a worse draw

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Define coming of age. State how that list of players had or has come of age from mid 2020 to 2022. You could say that 2022 saw a “coming of age” for Collins, O’Shea, Obafemi, Molumby and Ogbene. That’s late enough in the Kenny era. Cullen was 2021. The Norwich duo and Kelleher are still in the largely unproven category and Knight has had a rocky 6-12 months and seems to divide opinion here. It’s a massive amount of just potential, still, and a very high ceiling hopefully - with the exception of Cullen, Collins and O’Shea. There’s clearly a good dose of talent that you can see in the squad there now. Kenny’s hand is definitely and definitively stronger now than at any time previously in his tenure. Expectations have rightly shifted significantly in the last half season as a result.



Has it changed? You think we’re not aiming to (and some fans don’t even want to) qualify? That’s bizarre. Everything after that is made up dramatics and doesn’t warrant a real response. Certainly nothing on here or a prevailing sentiment on social media to back that up. Maybe a couple of weirdos you know.



It’s not impossible. Anything is possible. Sure didn’t I say in my post that there’s the expectation to take some points off the 4 games? But, while anything is possible, you have to be realistic too. Thinking we’ll take 4 points at home and 2 away against France and Holland and setting that as a benchmark expectation is possible but is it realistic? Is it fair to Kenny and the players? Personally I think you’re realistically expecting 4-5 points off those 4 games and anything more has to be seen as a bonus. I’d be looking for 6 (minimum 4) off Greece and obviously unblemished against Gibraltar. Probably not enough to qualify but not a bad outcome in a group containing the World Cup runner-up and a quarter finalist from a couple months before, like. Go to France or Holland and tell their fans how you think it’ll go, what you’re expecting, and they’ll just smile and pat you on your little pixie head.



Do you have a source for that quote? I’d like to see it in context before I can really offer a proper opinion/response.

Kenny had basically the same squad as McCarthy and then a breakthrough of young players to use. Like when McCarthy brought in Connolly, Kenny had the huge list of breakthroughs to bring into the squad and team. So he started with a strong squad that came very close to qualification for the euros automatically and then had the long list of players I mentioned there for him to add to it. Original squad + some of the best emerging talent for a long time = A better squad than McCarthy's. It's not complicated.

It's changed according to Kenny, he thinks we shouldn't be thinking about coming ahead of teams like Portugal and Serbia anyway. His thoughts have been repeated by Kenny supporters. Even some questioned why we should be expecting to beat Luxembourg!

Your next paragraph is laughable. We're not being fair to poor Stephen Kenny, how dare anyone expect us to be competitive. Other countries would laugh at us even thinking that.

Why do you need the full quote? Isn't that enough? Kenny is trying to convince us that it's not his fault, it's anyone who has the audacity to think we could even think of coming ahead of Serbia and Portugal who's the problem. And the full quote makes it worse, look at the state of this, he's not living in reality:

"If you take the four matches in this campaign. In the games against Serbia and Portugal away, they are probably two of the best performances in the last decade away from home in the last decade, without question.

Against Luxembourg at home we didn't play well at all. It was a poor performance, but we still didn't deserve to lose the game based on the chances. The other night we dominated and should have won well.

Don't forget, the spine of this team was ripped out. Darren Randolph was injured for a good period of time, Richard Keogh finished, Glenn Whelan is at the latter end of his career and was a brilliant player, David McGoldrick retired. The whole spine was taken out of the team.

We have take the best young players we have seen for a long, long time and blooded a lot of players. You're not always going to get a level of consistency with that.

Our performances in this campaign, bar the Luxembourg game which we were very disappointed with, have been good overall.

With Serbia and Portugal in this group and the spine having been ripped out of the team, and we haven't qualified for the World Cup since 2002, did anyone think that we were favourites to qualify or should qualify?

We have a plan in place. I have taken the decision, right or wrong, that we would build this squad to be a really competitive competitive team to qualify for Germany 2024.

We didn't not try and win those games, we came very close against Serbia and Portugal away from home, scored the first goal and played brilliant football in both games. I have taken that decision...

I think there is real progress overall to be honest. That's the way I see it, that's the way my staff see it, and all the coaches see it.

There are a lot of people that don't see it. They say 'that's not your job to develop the game, your job is to win the next match'. That kind of nearsightedness doesn't create anything.

You might beat teams you should beat, but you can never beat the teams that you stride to beat. You're trying to build something that can be tangible over a period of time and that can be successful.

That's the way I see it."

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Lads we’re talking about arguably the two best sides in Europe. France are, in my opinion, clearly the best side in Europe. Both sides only lost on penalties to Argentina. Netherlands are among maybe 5 teams who are contenders for the second best team in Europe (Spain, Germany, Netherlands, England, Italy)

I imagine most are like me. We have the logical part of our brain which says we’d do very well to pick up any points against them and the passionate fan part which whispers “we could turn these lads over with a bit of luck”.

People have said (maybe just boom) that the French squad are in disarray. Who’s retired? Benzema, Lloris, Varane, Mandanda. Benzema didn’t make the WC due to injury. France were better with Konate than with Varane at the World Cup. And Lloris is long past his sell by date. Meanwhile they could have Pogba, Kante, Kimpembe, Nkunku and Fofana back from injury. If anything they’re likely to have a better squad than they had at the World Cup.

As for looking to that win against Germany? I was there that day. I was also in the stadium when we lost 6-1 in 2012. The away leg was a 3-0 loss. There’s been more bad days against elite opposition that good ones

Here’s an incomplete list of some of France’s elite players:

1. Pavard - Bayern
2. Kounde - Barcelona
3. Konate - Liverpool
4. Upamecano - Bayern
5. L Hernandez - Bayern
6. T Hernandez - AC Milan
7. Saliba - Arsenal
8. Mendy - Real Madrid
9. Tchoumani - Real Madrid
10. Kante - Chelsea
11. Pogba - Juve
12. Griezmann - Atleti
13. Mbappe - PSG
14. Coman - Bayern
15. Dembele - Bayern
16. Giroud - Milan
17. Nkunku - Leipzig

I tried to be fairly limited, excluding the likes of W Fofana, Rabiot, Thuram, Kamara, Digne, Kimpembe, Kolo Muani, Y Fofana. You could even argue that everyone on that second list is better than our best players

Meanwhile the Dutch have:

1. Van Dijk - Liverpool
2. Timber - Ajax
3. Ake - Man City
4. De Vrij - Inter
5. Botman - Newcastle
6. Malacia - United
7. De Jong - Barcelona
8. Wijnaldum - Roma
9. Gakpo - Liverpool
10. Depay - Atleti
11. Bergweijn - Arsenal
12. Weghorst - United
13. Malen - Dortmund

Anyway - it’ll be fun but it’s pretty daunting and you couldn’t have mapped a worse draw

Get your excuses in early. Sure we should just skip this campaign. Can you list the teams the France 09 team played for?

And for Kenny supporters, you don't need a large number of players at big clubs to roll the excuses out. Remember Luxembourg? 'They have 1 player playing in the Champions League, how is Kenny meant to beat a team like that?' :D

[tetsujin1979]

BS you were asked for a link containing the quote from Stephen Kenny. Please provide it

[Jd2793]

Get your excuses in early. Sure we should just skip this campaign. Can you list the teams the France 09 team played for?

And for Kenny supporters, you don't need a large number of players at big clubs to roll the excuses out. Remember Luxembourg? 'They have 1 player playing in the Champions League, how is Kenny meant to beat a team like that?' :D


the argument was never ever "Luxembourg have 1 player playing in the Champions League, how is Kenny meant to beat a team like that' . The point people made was Luxembourg are not the same team as they were 10/15/20 years ago as proven by the fact they've a player in the cl. Now , thats not to excuse the turgid display we put on after the first 20 mins but a bit of context about things is key here. Yes, we should be beating luxembourg but they are hardly a Liechtenstein san marino or gibraltor. Ignoring the fact they have obviously improved along with our own regression is disingenuous and doesnt really aid any debate. We should be beating them but they are not a gimmie.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

BS you were asked for a link containing the quote from Stephen Kenny. Please provide it

No problem. I think a good few places reported it but this was taken from a typically pro Kenny article from media sources. Balls.ie in this case:

https://www.balls.ie/football/stephen-kenny-offensive-ireland-future-483048

[Diggs246]

Yep there it is

"With Serbia and Portugal in this group and the spine having been ripped out of the team, and we haven't qualified for the World Cup since 2002, did anyone think that we were favourites to qualify or should qualify?"

That's our leader folks!

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

the argument was never ever "Luxembourg have 1 player playing in the Champions League, how is Kenny meant to beat a team like that' . The point people made was Luxembourg are not the same team as they were 10/15/20 years ago as proven by the fact they've a player in the cl. Now , thats not to excuse the turgid display we put on after the first 20 mins but a bit of context about things is key here. Yes, we should be beating luxembourg but they are hardly a Liechtenstein san marino or gibraltor. Ignoring the fact they have obviously improved along with our own regression is disingenuous and doesnt really aid any debate. We should be beating them but they are not a gimmie.

That's amazing, especially that you used the word gimmie. I remember been told by a pro Kenny supporter prior to the Luxembourg game that it was unfair to criticise him for not gaining a victory up to that point because he has yet to play a 'gimmie'. I actually think it was on this forum. The poster stated that Luxembourg was his first gimmie. This despite already having played an awful Bulgaria side twice etc.

It's incredible how other teams get so much better when Kenny's Ireland are involved. France and Holland are now unstoppable superpowers. Serbia and Portugal, unbelievable sides. Luxembourg and Azerbaijan, they're getting close to being top tier sides. It's the Staunton effect, he was claiming San Marino were a side to be reckoned with after the 2-1.

Prior to Kenny this was never the case. Over a few campaigns, we should be coming ahead of Denmark, McCarthy was hounded after drawing away to Georgia. Kenny loses at home to Luxembourg, oh no, wait! The poor fella had a champions league player to come up against. Leave him be. It's absolutely ridiculous. You'd laugh if it wasn't so serious.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Yep there it is

"With Serbia and Portugal in this group and the spine having been ripped out of the team, and we haven't qualified for the World Cup since 2002, did anyone think that we were favourites to qualify or should qualify?"

That's our leader folks!

Absolute joke isn't it? He should have been ran out of the job for that quote alone. If Serbia and Portugal are out of our reach, surely he thinks the same about our upcoming group?

[SkStu]

Kenny had basically the same squad as McCarthy and then a breakthrough of young players to use. Like when McCarthy brought in Connolly, Kenny had the huge list of breakthroughs to bring into the squad and team. So he started with a strong squad that came very close to qualification for the euros automatically and then had the long list of players I mentioned there for him to add to it. Original squad + some of the best emerging talent for a long time = A better squad than McCarthy's. It's not complicated.

It's changed according to Kenny, he thinks we shouldn't be thinking about coming ahead of teams like Portugal and Serbia anyway. His thoughts have been repeated by Kenny supporters. Even some questioned why we should be expecting to beat Luxembourg!

Your next paragraph is laughable. We're not being fair to poor Stephen Kenny, how dare anyone expect us to be competitive. Other countries would laugh at us even thinking that.

Why do you need the full quote? Isn't that enough? Kenny is trying to convince us that it's not his fault, it's anyone who has the audacity to think we could even think of coming ahead of Serbia and Portugal who's the problem. And the full quote makes it worse, look at the state of this, he's not living in reality:

"If you take the four matches in this campaign. In the games against Serbia and Portugal away, they are probably two of the best performances in the last decade away from home in the last decade, without question.

Against Luxembourg at home we didn't play well at all. It was a poor performance, but we still didn't deserve to lose the game based on the chances. The other night we dominated and should have won well.

Don't forget, the spine of this team was ripped out. Darren Randolph was injured for a good period of time, Richard Keogh finished, Glenn Whelan is at the latter end of his career and was a brilliant player, David McGoldrick retired. The whole spine was taken out of the team.

We have take the best young players we have seen for a long, long time and blooded a lot of players. You're not always going to get a level of consistency with that.

Our performances in this campaign, bar the Luxembourg game which we were very disappointed with, have been good overall.

With Serbia and Portugal in this group and the spine having been ripped out of the team, and we haven't qualified for the World Cup since 2002, did anyone think that we were favourites to qualify or should qualify?

We have a plan in place. I have taken the decision, right or wrong, that we would build this squad to be a really competitive competitive team to qualify for Germany 2024.

We didn't not try and win those games, we came very close against Serbia and Portugal away from home, scored the first goal and played brilliant football in both games. I have taken that decision...

I think there is real progress overall to be honest. That's the way I see it, that's the way my staff see it, and all the coaches see it.

There are a lot of people that don't see it. They say 'that's not your job to develop the game, your job is to win the next match'. That kind of nearsightedness doesn't create anything.

You might beat teams you should beat, but you can never beat the teams that you stride to beat. You're trying to build something that can be tangible over a period of time and that can be successful.

That's the way I see it."

I think it’s at the point where it’s just not worth engaging you any more on this. You just constantly dodge genuine questions, ignore main points in a section (or isolate and address unimportant comments) or shift the goalposts. It would be nice to have a sincere exchange with you at some point instead of whatever this is.

Anyway…

1. I asked you to give me your definition of “coming of age” and tell me how the players had come of age. Those are the words you used. Not broken through to the Irish squad. Kenny called them up and as he says in his quote ended up having to blood them to international football, in some cases competitive football. Go back and read my point. Many of those players are still unproven or being proven; with some having “come of age” at a decent club level in the last 6-12 month.

2. Get out of it. Your words and point were about someone (you’ve clarified it’s Kenny you were referring to) not aiming to win the group or qualify. Of course he was. The quote you are referencing to back up that is from a retrospective - not looking ahead. Of course, I provided a link to the quotes from when the draw was made. His words were “it has to be our ambition to qualify; that’s why we are here, to try and qualify for the World Cup.” Jd2793 took care of the Luxembourg point you were trying to make.

3. Nothing laughable except your expectation. It’s not going to happen. If someone turned around to you and the players (I referenced them too in the bit you were laughing at) and said “you have to go through France and Portugal unbeaten home and away otherwise you’re a failure and you haven’t even bothered” how would you take it? That’s what you’re saying. It’s - forgive me - mental. The question that was in there, really, was what’s really acceptable to you from a results and points perspective which would cause you to say “you know what, we did alright”. Ignore what can’t be controlled (other results), just the 8 games and 24 points we have to play for.

4. The quote in context is fine. As I mentioned above, it’s a retrospective and his comments are in the context of what went on before and during the group in terms of player availability. In that quote he’s saying “we don’t have a divine right to qualify or to win groups, we don’t do it often and we had a bad time with player availability”. I mean, the bit you isolated is a bit defensive sounding and doesn’t add anything to his main argument but it’s fine. But, most importantly, that quote doesn’t back up that he went into the group with the mentality you had been accusing him of - not aiming to qualify, tempering expectations in advance etc.

[Jd2793]

That's amazing, especially that you used the word gimmie. I remember been told by a pro Kenny supporter prior to the Luxembourg game that it was unfair to criticise him for not gaining a victory up to that point because he has yet to play a 'gimmie'. I actually think it was on this forum. The poster stated that Luxembourg was his first gimmie. This despite already having played an awful Bulgaria side twice etc.

It's incredible how other teams get so much better when Kenny's Ireland are involved. France and Holland are now unstoppable superpowers. Serbia and Portugal, unbelievable sides. Luxembourg and Azerbaijan, they're getting close to being top tier sides. It's the Staunton effect, he was claiming San Marino were a side to be reckoned with after the 2-1.

Prior to Kenny this was never the case. Over a few campaigns, we should be coming ahead of Denmark, McCarthy was hounded after drawing away to Georgia. Kenny loses at home to Luxembourg, oh no, wait! The poor fella had a champions league player to come up against. Leave him be. It's absolutely ridiculous. You'd laugh if it wasn't so serious.

yeah there was loads of moaning after georgia because we didnt even try to play, there were a lot of similarities in the home tie to kennys loss to lux. regardless of that fact, there are 14 places between these sides in the rankings (not a lot). kenny got untold flack for that Lux defeat, pretending he didnt is delusional. Its not my fault or anyone elses if people dont take into account that a lot of these smaller nations are a lot better now than 10/20 years ago. We should be beating georgia + luxembourg but nothing is a given. the narrative is different because georgia have been "hard to beat, tough place to go" for easily 10 years or more. Lux were the whipping boys for donkeys years getting tonked 6/7-0 10/20 years ago. Times change, its not our fault if you dont keep up

[tetsujin1979]

Balls.ieare a media source the same way nettles are a flower

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

I think it’s at the point where it’s just not worth engaging you any more on this. You just constantly dodge genuine questions, ignore main points in a section (or isolate and address unimportant comments) or shift the goalposts. It would be nice to have a sincere exchange with you at some point instead of whatever this is.

Anyway…

1. I asked you to give me your definition of “coming of age” and tell me how the players had come of age. Those are the words you used. Not broken through to the Irish squad. Kenny called them up and as he says in his quote ended up having to blood them to international football, in some cases competitive football. Go back and read my point. Many of those players are still unproven or being proven; with some having “come of age” at a decent club level in the last 6-12 month.

2. Get out of it. Your words and point were about someone (you’ve clarified it’s Kenny you were referring to) not aiming to win the group or qualify. Of course he was. The quote you are referencing to back up that is from a retrospective - not looking ahead. Of course, I provided a link to the quotes from when the draw was made. His words were “it has to be our ambition to qualify; that’s why we are here, to try and qualify for the World Cup.” Jd2793 took care of the Luxembourg point you were trying to make.

3. Nothing laughable except your expectation. It’s not going to happen. If someone turned around to you and the players (I referenced them too in the bit you were laughing at) and said “you have to go through France and Portugal unbeaten home and away otherwise you’re a failure and you haven’t even bothered” how would you take it? That’s what you’re saying. It’s - forgive me - mental. The question that was in there, really, was what’s really acceptable to you from a results and points perspective which would cause you to say “you know what, we did alright”. Ignore what can’t be controlled (other results), just the 8 games and 24 points we have to play for.

4. The quote in context is fine. As I mentioned above, it’s a retrospective and his comments are in the context of what went on before and during the group in terms of player availability. In that quote he’s saying “we don’t have a divine right to qualify or to win groups, we don’t do it often and we had a bad time with player availability”. I mean, the bit you isolated is a bit defensive sounding and doesn’t add anything to his main argument but it’s fine. But, most importantly, that quote doesn’t back up that he went into the group with the mentality you had been accusing him of - not aiming to qualify, tempering expectations in advance etc.

Well first of all we will have to remove the pretence that you're not firmly in the pro Kenny camp. I'll keep this short.

1. My post states what my definition is. Players making breakthroughs at their squad as they move into senior football. This happened under Kenny's reign. It's a simple equation showing that Kenny has had a superior squad to McCarthy.

2. He was obviously lying before the group. He didn't believe we could qualify and he lambasted anyone who thought we could. How are we meant to believe he thinks we'll qualify from the upcoming group?

3. I haven't said anything about what I expect. I've stated how we've always approached groups and how no matter who the opposition, we think we can qualify. That goes out the window with Kenny and his supporters though, that's what's laughable. The different standards for poor, unlucky Kenny.

4. The whole quote is an embarrassment. Not only the losers talk already pointed out, he tries to claim we put in great performances against Serbia and Portugal. We were destroyed in 3 of the 4 games against them. We didn't deserve to lose v Luxembourg, wrong. The spine ripped out of the team he says. Randolph 34 at the time, Keogh 35, Whelan 36 and McGoldrick 33. But then says he was building for 2024! This despite picking a very similar side to McCarthy up until the Luxembourg defeat. He changed the narrative then and his backers have bought into it. He then also stated that they had made progress. The gall of the man. Going from nearly qualifying to nearly coming bottom of a group is not progress. I don't know how anyone can defend his comments, well, I do. If they are hardcore Kennyites.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

yeah there was loads of moaning after georgia because we didnt even try to play, there were a lot of similarities in the home tie to kennys loss to lux. regardless of that fact, there are 14 places between these sides in the rankings (not a lot). kenny got untold flack for that Lux defeat, pretending he didnt is delusional. Its not my fault or anyone elses if people dont take into account that a lot of these smaller nations are a lot better now than 10/20 years ago. We should be beating georgia + luxembourg but nothing is a given. the narrative is different because georgia have been "hard to beat, tough place to go" for easily 10 years or more. Lux were the whipping boys for donkeys years getting tonked 6/7-0 10/20 years ago. Times change, its not our fault if you dont keep up

Oh yeah, standards changed in about the year 2020. Prior to that we were expected to qualify for tournaments or come close to qualification. If that didn't happen, the manager got sacked. Post 2020, when Kenny came on the scene, suddenly every opponent we played improved dramatically while our players went downhill fast. Kenny's supporters were still singing his name in the stands as they watched Luxembourg beat us. That tells you everything you need to know.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Balls.ieare a media source the same way nettles are a flower

Yeah but they didn't make up the quotes.

[Razors left peg]

There's a Mark Twain quote that comes into my head for some reason as I read through some of this. "Never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"

[Snapshot]

There's a Mark Twain quote that comes into my head for some reason as I read through some of this. "Never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"
Who's the idiot, Sunshine? Spit it out.

[SkStu]

etc etc

Grand. Fair enough. Just humour me a little longer.

Looking at everything (players, opposition, schedule and so on), what set of results from each game in the upcoming group would cause you to say “we’ve done well and I’m fairly satisfied”?

[tetsujin1979]

Yeah but they didn't make up the quotes.
Please point out where I accused anyone of making up quotes

[SkStu]

Hey Snapshot. How’s things? Why don’t you join the conversation when you have something to add? LOL.

War and Peace :D

[Snapshot]

Hey Snapshot. How’s things? Why don’t you join the conversation when you have something to add? LOL.

War and Peace :D
Fair enough, but you said "it’s just not worth engaging you (Boom) any more on this" and then did the opposite. As far as the Kenny debate is concerned you've covered all bases. You're a winner no matter what happens. Congratulations.

[SkStu]

Actually, I said “I think it’s at the point where it’s just not worth engaging you any more on this”.

To address your little passive aggressive comment there at the end, I’m allowed to want a new manager and cheer for the current team and manager to do well/better. As far as I’m aware, they’re not mutually exclusive concepts. Sorry, I don’t know all the rules.

[samhaydenjr]

Grand. Fair enough. Just humour me a little longer.

Looking at everything (players, opposition, schedule and so on), what set of results from each game in the upcoming group would cause you to say “we’ve done well and I’m fairly satisfied”?

I think I'd like to go a bit farther on that question and look at what a plan of action would be for this campaign, because there are a couple of courses of action. Let's start by facing a couple of realities:
1. For Kenny sceptics, the reality is that he will start the next campaign, there's no point arguing he shouldn't at this point
2. For Kenny supporters, the reality is that it is very unlikely that we will qualify from the main group - the Scotland home game aside, the summer and autumn games have indicated that we are not prepared to take on the big boys we have been placed with. The only path I can see is that Ferguson and Obafemi strike up an instantly potent partnership, everybody else plays out of there skins in a system designed to play to this partnership's strengths, possibly combined with some sort of World Cup hangover/squad implosion hitting either France of Holland. But based on form/calibre, we're not coming first or second

But, of course, there is another path - as I noted in another post, depending on results, we could be participating in a winnable play-off mini-tournament in March 2024. So perhaps the main qualification group could be seen, in part at least, as preparation for that. And that brings up the question: should Kenny be allowed to be manager in that tournament, no matter what?

Or is there a circumstance whereby his position could be reconsidered part of the way through? For example a heavy defeat to France, a loss to Greece and a scraped victory at home to Gibraltar. Perhaps bring in a cost-effective gun-for-hire with a short-term contract?

[elatedscum]

I’ve said this on here before but I think weirdly, we’re more likely to qualify via the regular group than via the playoffs.

Basically 50/50 chance to make the playoff, depending on other results.

In general, the playoff is a 1 in 4. 25%

So that’d be 12.5% chance to qualify via playoff but decent chance a top team end up via the playoff (perhaps England or Italy don’t qualify from their group). We’re very likely to be in Path A. so that 12.5% probably goes down to maybe 8% chance.

And I reckon the chance of us qualifying directly via the group is about 10%

[Snapshot]

Balls.ie (http://Balls.ie) are a media source the same way nettles are a flower
That's unfair and a disappointing comment. Balls.ie (http://Balls.ie) is not the greatest but journalist Gary Connaughton deserves respect. Boomshakalaka was rightly required to provide a source which he did - an article by Connaughton with direct and relevant quotes from Stephen Kenny. Yet you mock it.

[elatedscum]

That's unfair and a disappointing comment. Balls.ie (http://Balls.ie) is not the greatest but journalist Gary Connaughton deserves respect. Boomshakalaka was rightly required to provide a source which he did - an article by Connaughton with direct and relevant quotes from Stephen Kenny. Yet you mock it.

terrible disrespect of the humble nettle from you snapshot ;)

[Eirambler]

And that brings up the question: should Kenny be allowed to be manager in that tournament, no matter what?

Or is there a circumstance whereby his position could be reconsidered part of the way through? For example a heavy defeat to France, a loss to Greece and a scraped victory at home to Gibraltar. Perhaps bring in a cost-effective gun-for-hire with a short-term contract?

I don't think there's so much "a circumstance", it's more that Kenny's removal it is the most likely circumstance.

By all accounts Roy Barrett going is seen as a major blow for Kenny, he was one of his main supporters within the FAI. The likes of Packie Bonner are no friends of Kenny in terms of his hopes of continuing in the job.

There have been reports of an approach to Carsley.

But nobody is going to want to take the job ahead of the start of this group and Carsley has the Under 21 finals coming up anyway.

My genuine guess is that Kenny is a dead man walking and he knows it. That's why he was doing things like bringing Hendrick on as a sub against Malta, he knows he can't take many more bullets at this stage. Right now it suits everyone for him to be there, he obviously wants to be manager and it's an impossible group so a hard sell to anyone else at the moment. So it makes sense to let Kenny be the fall guy and leave him in post to own the failure of another early exit in a group - just one more to add to the collection for him, that will be 5 in total I think. Some going in three years.

Once we're into the "building for the future" stage of the group - the only bit Kenny has ever been remotely competent in (i.e. when we're already out) he can be removed and replaced. Not with a short term "gun for hire" though, but with the next full time manager.

If we end up in the playoffs and Kenny is somehow still in post that means there has either been a massive upturn in performances that there has been no evidence of up to now, or there has been some kind of serious malfunction or financial catastrophe within the FAI.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Grand. Fair enough. Just humour me a little longer.

Looking at everything (players, opposition, schedule and so on), what set of results from each game in the upcoming group would cause you to say “we’ve done well and I’m fairly satisfied”?

I'm not sure why you made the comment about no point in engaging with me anymore. I answered all your questions clearly, backed up my opinion with data, provided you full quotes etc but you don't answer any of my questions, you won't or can't deal with the points I raised and then you demand more answers. It's the same in every thread when I challenge your opinion with facts. So the question should be, why should I continue to engage with you?

And like, I'm still going to answer your question because I always do. I'd be satisfied if we qualify or come close to qualifying. I've said this. It has been the criteria that we assess managers on for a long time now. I think I can guess what sort of reply you'll post.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Please point out where I accused anyone of making up quotes

I didn't say you did.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

I’ve said this on here before but I think weirdly, we’re more likely to qualify via the regular group than via the playoffs.

Basically 50/50 chance to make the playoff, depending on other results.

In general, the playoff is a 1 in 4. 25%

So that’d be 12.5% chance to qualify via playoff but decent chance a top team end up via the playoff (perhaps England or Italy don’t qualify from their group). We’re very likely to be in Path A. so that 12.5% probably goes down to maybe 8% chance.

And I reckon the chance of us qualifying directly via the group is about 10%

Why is there such a small chance to make the play offs? What results do we need to go out way? I tried googling but nothing came up for me.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

I don't think there's so much "a circumstance", it's more that Kenny's removal it is the most likely circumstance.

By all accounts Roy Barrett going is seen as a major blow for Kenny, he was one of his main supporters within the FAI. The likes of Packie Bonner are no friends of Kenny in terms of his hopes of continuing in the job.

There have been reports of an approach to Carsley.

But nobody is going to want to take the job ahead of the start of this group and Carsley has the Under 21 finals coming up anyway.

My genuine guess is that Kenny is a dead man walking and he knows it. That's why he was doing things like bringing Hendrick on as a sub against Malta, he knows he can't take many more bullets at this stage. Right now it suits everyone for him to be there, he obviously wants to be manager and it's an impossible group so a hard sell to anyone else at the moment. So it makes sense to let Kenny be the fall guy and leave him in post to own the failure of another early exit in a group - just one more to add to the collection for him, that will be 5 in total I think. Some going in three years.

Once we're into the "building for the future" stage of the group - the only bit Kenny has ever been remotely competent in (i.e. when we're already out) he can be removed and replaced. Not with a short term "gun for hire" though, but with the next full time manager.

If we end up in the playoffs and Kenny is somehow still in post that means there has either been a massive upturn in performances that there has been no evidence of up to now, or there has been some kind of serious malfunction or financial catastrophe within the FAI.

If it goes similarly to what was outlined by samhaydenjr, then Kenny will be removed in June after the Greece away and Gibraltar games. Carsley has the u21 euros June/July. He could be appointed after that. Or if not, it would be the season to look for an available manager anyway.

[tetsujin1979]

I didn't say you did. then explain your comment about making up quotes

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

then explain your comment about making up quotes

The media source may not be great but they provided direct quotes. Just stating it served it's purpose. No hidden meaning.

[elatedscum]

Why is there such a small chance to make the play offs? What results do we need to go out way? I tried googling but nothing came up for me.

We are ranked 26th based on nations league. Remove Germany as hosts and you get 25th.


We need no more than 3 teams from 26-55 qualifying in the 20 automatic squad qualifiers, judging by previous campaigns you’d probably expect 2 or 3. There’s a handful of obvious contenders: Sweden finishing ahead of Austria is an obvious one that comes to mind.


Genuinely boom, as asked by others above, curious how many points of a possible 24 would you consider a good total in the group?

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

We are ranked 26th based on nations league. Remove Germany as hosts and you get 25th.


We need no more than 3 teams from 26-55 qualifying in the 20 automatic squad qualifiers, judging by previous campaigns you’d probably expect 2 or 3. There’s a handful of obvious contenders: Sweden finishing ahead of Austria is an obvious one that comes to mind.


Genuinely boom, as asked by others above, curious how many points of a possible 24 would you consider a good total in the group?

Thanks. Looks like we'll be keeping a close eye on other groups.

I think a point against France, 3 against Holland, 6 against Greece and Gibraltar. That 16 points. I think that would be a good total.

[Eirambler]

16 points would be new four year contract for Kenny territory. I don't think that's realistic, 12 or 13 points would be a more realistic target.

But we're not at the stage where Kenny can be judged across the whole 8 games - he's living almost from window to window at this point. He'd probably need to have five or more points on the board to survive beyond June, especially looking at the games we have to play in September.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

16 points would be new four year contract for Kenny territory. I don't think that's realistic, 12 or 13 points would be a more realistic target.

But we're not at the stage where Kenny can be judged across the whole 8 games - he's living almost from window to window at this point. He'd probably need to have five or more points on the board to survive beyond June, especially looking at the games we have to play in September.

That's just what I think would be a good total. 18+ excellent, below 14 decent, below 12 average, below 10 poor. That's for any manager.

I'd actually have quite a bit of confidence of getting around 16 points and really giving this group a good go if it wasn't for Kenny. And when you look at our perilous position looking at the play off route, you can really see the damage his dreadful results are causing. Am I right in thinking that had we topped our Nation's League group, we would have been guaranteed a play off spot and we would have been second seeds for the Euro qualification draw?

[Supreme feet]

I'd actually have quite a bit of confidence of getting around 16 points and really giving this group a good go if it wasn't for Kenny.

That would involve taking six points from Greece, and four from the games with France and Holland.

In the 30 years and 15 qualifying campaigns I've been watching Ireland, we've only taken six points from the fourth seed four times (Cyprus 2002 and '10, Georgia '04, Macedonia '12) We've taken four points from a European heavyweight twice (Holland 2002, Germany '16).

It would be an utterly magnificent achievement if it did happen.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

That would involve taking six points from Greece, and four from the games with France and Holland.

In the 30 years and 15 qualifying campaigns I've been watching Ireland, we've only taken six points from the fourth seed four times (Cyprus 2002 and '10, Georgia '04, Macedonia '12) We've taken four points from a European heavyweight twice (Holland 2002, Germany '16).

It would be an utterly magnificent achievement if it did happen.

Let's not go overboard here. It would involve drawing at home to France, not outlandish. And then beating Holland at home. Beating Greece home and away would make it a good campaign, a win and a draw would be decent. I don't see much to disagree with that.

[backstothewall]

The away game against Greece will be played in the middle of June. Even for an evening kick-off the heat is likely to be fierce. If we're lucky the temperature will have dipped below 30°C for the second half.

Coming away from Athens with a point would be an excellent result.

[tetsujin1979]

Let's not go overboard here. It would involve drawing at home to France, not outlandish. And then beating Holland at home. Beating Greece home and away would make it a good campaign, a win and a draw would be decent. I don't see much to disagree with that.So, take a point off a the world cup finalists, and three points from a Dutch side that went unbeaten in 2022 and have lost two qualifiers in the last four years.


The away game against Greece will be played in the middle of June. Even for an evening kick-off the heat is likely to be fierce. If we're lucky the temperature will have dipped below 30°C for the second half.

Coming away from Athens with a point would be an excellent result.
Greece away is going to be really tough. They've lost one game at home in the last three years, against Spain in November 2021. Before that, they hadn't lost at home since June 2019

[Snapshot]

So, take a point off a the world cup finalists, and three points from a Dutch side that went unbeaten in 2022 and have lost two qualifiers in the last four years.


Greece away is going to be really tough. They've lost one game at home in the last three years, against Spain in November 2021. Before that, they hadn't lost at home since June 2019
It's a big leap of faith but better than peddling your hopelessness.

[irishfan86]

The thing with a group of kids is that one day, one game, they have their coming out party when nobody’s expecting it. And it changes everything.

A lot of our guys haven’t had that moment on the international stage and all it takes is one moment or two to change how the team views itself and how opponents view us.

Maybe it’s still too soon for this group. But I believe if we have the right players available and they are used in an optimal way, we can make some noise in this group and/or qualify through a playoff.

In Ferguson and Obafemi we have two players with the potential to score and create at an elite level, something we haven’t had for some time.

I’m looking forward to the campaign and don’t think it’s as hopeless as it would seem.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

The away game against Greece will be played in the middle of June. Even for an evening kick-off the heat is likely to be fierce. If we're lucky the temperature will have dipped below 30°C for the second half.

Coming away from Athens with a point would be an excellent result.

Even the weather in 5 months time is against Kenny, can he ever catch a break?

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

So, take a point off a the world cup finalists, and three points from a Dutch side that went unbeaten in 2022 and have lost two qualifiers in the last four years.


Greece away is going to be really tough. They've lost one game at home in the last three years, against Spain in November 2021. Before that, they hadn't lost at home since June 2019

France have lost to Croatia at home, lost to Denmark home and away, drawn with Ukraine home and away, drawn with Bosnia at home and drawn with Croatia and Austria away in the past 2 years just with qualification and Nations league games. It's possible to get a draw at home to them.

Holland have lost to Italy at home, lost to Turkey away, drawn with Poland at home and Italy, Bosnia, Norway and Montenegro away in the past 2 years in qualification and Nations league games.

In competitive games between 1998 and 2002, Holland only lost 4 games. One was a World Cup 3rd place play off, one was in a Euro semi final after extra time, one was against Portugal and their only other defeat in those 4 years was against the Republic of Ireland.

These things are possible. And I was asked what would be considered a good total of points from qualification. I don't think getting less than 2 points out of 12 against 2 of the teams in our group could be considered as good.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

The thing with a group of kids is that one day, one game, they have their coming out party when nobody’s expecting it. And it changes everything.

A lot of our guys haven’t had that moment on the international stage and all it takes is one moment or two to change how the team views itself and how opponents view us.

Maybe it’s still too soon for this group. But I believe if we have the right players available and they are used in an optimal way, we can make some noise in this group and/or qualify through a playoff.

In Ferguson and Obafemi we have two players with the potential to score and create at an elite level, something we haven’t had for some time.

I’m looking forward to the campaign and don’t think it’s as hopeless as it would seem.

Some of our players were playing when we got our famous away qualification wins against Austria and Wales. The majority of the squad were involved when we put a very good Danish team to the pin of their collar. They've been let down by the current set up but the young players added to the experience have the ability to contend in this group. They had the ability in our last qualification campaign as well. We need less of the talk that we should only expect to come 3rd or 4th in this group or any group. If the management and supporters are saying that then it rubs off on the players. We have a strong squad, they are good enough to compete and achieve famous results like we have before.

[Diggs246]

The away game against Greece will be played in the middle of June. Even for an evening kick-off the heat is likely to be fierce. If we're lucky the temperature will have dipped below 30°C for the second half.

Coming away from Athens with a point would be an excellent result.

Just did a quick check and all weather sites seem to suggest the June temperature will drop to circa 19 degrees in the evening.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Just did a quick check and all weather sites seem to suggest the June temperature will drop to circa 19 degrees in the evening.

:D Oh no, it'll be about 5 degrees higher than our UK based players will be used to. I say we cancel our flights and award Greece that game. No point risking heat exhaustion.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Just looked up Greece's home record since 2020. Drew with Kosovo twice, drew with Slovenia and Georgia and lost to Spain out of the 10 competitive home games. They did get a good win against Sweden but other home wins were against Northern Ireland, Cyprus and Kosovo. So maybe we shouldn't fear them too much.

[elatedscum]

5 wins 4 draws and 1 loss in that period at home. Away from home they drew with Spain and Belgium and beat Norway.

Since 2016, they’ve played in 3 nations league campaigns, 2 World Cup campaigns and a euros campaign and in that time 23 sides have tried to take 6 points from greece and only Italy in 2019 did it. Taking 6 points from Greece would be excellent.