Shamrock Rovers entering a team in Div 1 next season

[Kingswood Rover]

One of the tabloids reporting that Rovers are looking to enter a team in the first Div next season, what do people think.

[Mr A]

Last time Rovers B came in it was because another club died.

Depressing.

[wonder88]

Not a total surprise. There is no outlet for players over 19 years of age to get match practice in the league of Ireland. A reserve/B league or an u-23 with say 2 over age players allowed (like Olympics) would serve a better player development purpose than the structures we have now.
It makes sense for a club with a fairly big first team squad like Shamrock R to do this.

[Real ale Madrid]

Shamrock Castilla

[David BOHie]

Unless Kerry also join or a team drops out then I can't see this going ahead with 9 teams.

There probably should be a U21s league. 23s wouldn't be practical as most LOI players are under that age anyway

[sidewayspasser]

Are Rovers speculating on a vacancy in the FD or do they want to enter as an 11th team?

[ForzaForth]

With Athlone having applied to join the WNL and Shamrock Rovers B applying to join Division 1, my first thought is that a men's and women's team are in trouble. Would hope it's not Limerick FC and Limerick WFC.

Haven't heard of any signings for Wexford FC as yet, but it seems we're OK for next season with the same management team confirmed as last year, i.e. Brian O'Sullivan and David Breen.

[White Horse]

It is a measure of the disparity between the top reaches of the premier division and the first division. Shamrock Rovers have a big first team squad and have many players coming through their underage teams. These players need competitive games. The argument could be that there should be other clubs or new clubs that these players could be join or be loaned out to. However, there is no income steam to all these teams to exist. The only meaningful income steams in Irish football is Europe and transfer deals. At present, Dundalk and Shamrock Rovers, in particular, have monopolised European money and Rovers are doing a good job at taking the lions share of transfer income due to their investment in an academy structure.

[EatYerGreens]

This is not a healthy sign for the League of Ireland.

[SkStu]

One of the tabloids reporting that Rovers are looking to enter a team in the first Div next season, what do people think.

notions.

[nigel-harps1954]

Signs on Cabinteely pulling out of the league.

[osarusan]

To the best of my knowledge, not a peep out of Limerick on any developments, takeovers, 'Limerick 2.0', etc. Virtually every player has left with almost all signing for local junior clubs.

[Mr A]

Sure we have no players either and we are not remotely worried.

:-|

[D24Saint]

Signs on Cabinteely pulling out of the league.

They have to be in danger , Blackrock Rugby club must demand a tasty fee every year and their crowds are awful.

[pineapple stu]

Blackrock Rugby Club could really do with a tenant though, cos I don't think they're doing great on their own

[David BOHie]

There's big potential out that deck of the woods for a reasonably supported LOI team. Even a proper stand or two and a decent pitch and you've the basis of thousands of schoolkids and parents there

[Nesta99]

It is a measure of the disparity between the top reaches of the premier division and the first division. Shamrock Rovers have a big first team squad and have many players coming through their underage teams. These players need competitive games. The argument could be that there should be other clubs or new clubs that these players could be join or be loaned out to. However, there is no income steam to all these teams to exist. The only meaningful income steams in Irish football is Europe and transfer deals. At present, Dundalk and Shamrock Rovers, in particular, have monopolised European money and Rovers are doing a good job at taking the lions share of transfer income due to their investment in an academy structure.

This was probably answered when Rovers previously had a B team in the 1st Division - would players that feature for the '2nd' team in the First Division be registered and available for the 1st team? If not it is a development team and the size of the 1st team squad makes little difference really. Players would hardly be happy finding themselves on the fringes and 'loaned' over to the 2nd string if it ties them down and not able to play Premier Division ball. It's a bit FAI like to be introducing underage national leagues, have a solid development pathway and then have a major gap in development from youths to senior. It would be an additional financial burden on clubs to have an U21/23 reserve division on top of the other age groups but it is badly needed.

[Briuk]

Dundalk should follow them. It would be great for the First Div to have 12 teams.

[nigel-harps1954]

Dundalk should follow them. It would be great for the First Div to have more empty stadiums.

Fixed that for you.

[Charlie Darwin]

To be fair, Dundalk have always been about having a small, but elite squad. Owners there are purely about the first team and nothing else. Hard to see them being into the idea of a B team. Could see Pats, Cork and Bohs questioning why they're not allowed follow suit though.

[marinobohs]

To be fair, Dundalk have always been about having a small, but elite squad. Owners there are purely about the first team and nothing else. Hard to see them being into the idea of a B team. Could see Pats, Cork and Bohs questioning why they're not allowed follow suit though.
Still don't see why any club would want the money pit of a first Division team.
Most clubs have difficulty keeping ONE team afloat never mind a FD vanity project.

[sbgawa]

Rovers have a stream of talent coming through that needs to play mens football in the first division and don't want these kids leaving to play elsewhere.
A year or two for a 16 , 17, 18 year old playing in the first division will make transition to the first team easier.
I watch a lot of underage games in Roadstone and there are kids who are ready for mens football but would struggle to get into Rovers first team as the jump from playing 18 year olds to going up against senior pros is to much.
The cost is no greater bar the fees to the fai then running an under 19's team assuming none of the players are paid.

[nigel-harps1954]

Would it not be more beneficial to them to enter a team in the LSL, similar to what Harps and Derry do with the USL?

Transition to senior football without the €100k cost to run the team.

[disgruntled]

Rovers have a stream of talent coming through that needs to play mens football in the first division and don't want these kids leaving to play elsewhere.
A year or two for a 16 , 17, 18 year old playing in the first division will make transition to the first team easier.
I watch a lot of underage games in Roadstone and there are kids who are ready for mens football but would struggle to get into Rovers first team as the jump from playing 18 year olds to going up against senior pros is to much.
The cost is no greater bar the fees to the fai then running an under 19's team assuming none of the players are paid.

If a club can afford it then its a very good idea.
There are many players coming out of Under 19's who are not yet ready for senior football either physically or mentally.
Give them a year in the 1st Div & see if they can progress up another level.
If at the end of the season they look like they won't make the grade then let them go & move onto the next batch.

I can see why fans of some other clubs would be against it as it might cut off the supply of players trickling down to them.
Its all down to the expense though & whether a club can afford it.

[disgruntled]

Would it not be more beneficial to them to enter a team in the LSL, similar to what Harps and Derry do with the USL?

Transition to senior football without the €100k cost to run the team.

I wish it were that simple though.
Cork City tried to enter the Munster (Cork) Senior League some years ago & were refused.

[sbgawa]

Fair point Nigel on entering a team in the LSL but i presume they want to try to make the standard as high and as close to Premier as possible.
Maybe the winter summer football issue as well as the 15s 17s 19s teams will match up with the premier summer soccer.

[pineapple stu]

Shamrock Rovers (and UCD) are already in the LSL, aren't they?

Is it easier to transfer players between a B team and senior than between LSL and senior? The latter is considered two separate clubs for transfer purposes afaik.

[EatYerGreens]

What I don't understand is why every Premier Division team doesn't have a B Team in the First Division ?

Surely the best thing for Irish football would be to have 2 leagues of exactly the same teams - one division for first teamers and the other for the seconds ? Then fans could watch a version of their own team at home every weekend.

What's not to like ?

[nigel-harps1954]

What I don't understand is clubs voting to get rid of the A Championship and then deciding they want to enter reserve teams elsewhere.

The league desperately needs an under-23 league as a bridge between underage and senior, more than it needs an under-13 league.

[Martinho II]

Years ago before we joined the loi from 1979 to 1984 we were in the LOI B division and that comprised of the LOI sides B teams plus the non league teams in this. Mind you there was only one division in the LOI back then. Thats the way it should go imo!

[marinobohs]

Rovers have a stream of talent coming through that needs to play mens football in the first division and don't want these kids leaving to play elsewhere.
A year or two for a 16 , 17, 18 year old playing in the first division will make transition to the first team easier.
I watch a lot of underage games in Roadstone and there are kids who are ready for mens football but would struggle to get into Rovers first team as the jump from playing 18 year olds to going up against senior pros is to much.
The cost is no greater bar the fees to the fai then running an under 19's team assuming none of the players are paid.

Or loan them to clubs already in the First Division ?
First Division team didn’t work for shams before (except when it was their only team 😁) can’t see the difference now.

Maybe Shels infamous “master plan “ was to see shams not Bohs in the First Division 😎

[sbgawa]

Loaning players out isn't the same as keeping them playing for the club under the same coaches who have been working with them in the academy and available to fill in in the first team if needed.

[marinobohs]

Loaning players out isn't the same as keeping them playing for the club under the same coaches who have been working with them in the academy and available to fill in in the first team if needed.
Funny enough it works for plenty of clubs much bigger than the League of Ireland but hey, what would they know ?
Don’t get me wrong I’m perfectly happy to see shams **** away their money on a vanity project that nobody else sees merit in.

Maybe a tour explaining to other clubs, like the “fans owned club” one 😎

[sbgawa]

Plenty of other leagues have under 23 teams that fullfill the same purpose and still loan out some players for actual match experience.
People on here have been saying for years there is a need for a bridge between under 19's and first team so Rovers putting it in place can't be a bad idea??

Are you having one of your angry days :)

[EatYerGreens]

Is there any other league in Europe that has 'B' teams in its second tier ?

The whole thing just makes the LOI look a bit sh'ite in my view.

[ArFella]

Is there any other league in Europe that has 'B' teams in its second tier ?

The whole thing just makes the LOI look a bit sh'ite in my view.

I'm sure it's common enough in Europe but the one example that springs to mind is Spain where reserve teams often compete in the Segunda Division and Real Madrid's reserves actually won it once, there is a rule in place that prevents these sides gaining promotion, obviously, which I assume will be the case in this instance also.

[sbgawa]

Real Madrids reserve team Castilla reached the Spanish Cup final in 1980 where they lost to...Real Madrid but qualified for the Cup winners cup as Real won the League. (this google is a great thing)
If we hadn't just won the cup after 32 years i would think it was a cunning plan to give us two chances.

[joey B]

Is there any other league in Europe that has 'B' teams in its second tier ?

The whole thing just makes the LOI look a bit sh'ite in my view.

Quite common in Holland and Germany

[sidewayspasser]

Quite common in Holland and Germany
In Holland, yes. In Germany, the third tier is the highest for reserve teams.

[pineapple stu]

What I don't understand is clubs voting to get rid of the A Championship and then deciding they want to enter reserve teams elsewhere.

The league desperately needs an under-23 league as a bridge between underage and senior, more than it needs an under-13 league.
I think the need for an U23 league is way overstated. It'd be utterly useless for UCD for example. Maybe allowing 2/3 overage players in the 19s league might help because the old reserve league did allow players not in the first team to keep match fitness.

A proper underage structure is something pretty much every proper club in Europe has - for community development if nothing else - and I don't see how an U23 league could be considered more important than an U13 league.

[Martinho II]

I think the need for an U23 league is way overstated. It'd be utterly useless for UCD for example. Maybe allowing 2/3 overage players in the 19s league might help because the old reserve league did allow players not in the first team to keep match fitness.

A proper underage structure is something pretty much every proper club in Europe has - for community development if nothing else - and I don't see how an U23 league could be considered more important than an U13 league.

The old under 21 league that was the exact same a decade and a half back allowing a few overage first teamers to play for 21s. Why did they get rid of it? It was stupidity!

[EatYerGreens]

I'm sure it's common enough in Europe but the one example that springs to mind is Spain where reserve teams often compete in the Segunda Division and Real Madrid's reserves actually won it once, there is a rule in place that prevents these sides gaining promotion, obviously, which I assume will be the case in this instance also.

There are no B teams in Spain's Segunda Division. One hasn't won it for 2 decades either.

Most of the Spanish B Teams kick in at the 3rd tier and below.

[DCWA]

Still a valid example as that has only been the case since Barcelona and Sevilla’s reserve teams were relegated together.

I don’t know on the whole idea. Spain, Germany and Holland are hardly bad examples to follow when it comes to youth development, although no obviously you can’t just take any of their templates and transfer it on to Ireland.

If the First Div needs a team and Rovers
are happy to commit to providing one in the form of their B team I see no deal breaking argument against it .

Why would it only be Rovers though, if for example Dundalk Pats and Cork all said they wanted to enter B teams in the first division - where would we go from there, how is that decision made?

[marinobohs]

Plenty of other leagues have under 23 teams that fullfill the same purpose and still loan out some players for actual match experience.
People on here have been saying for years there is a need for a bridge between under 19's and first team so Rovers putting it in place can't be a bad idea??

Are you having one of your angry days :)

Shams doing it doesn’t make it a good idea either 🤓 it wasn’t the last time they tried it and they were happy to opt out pretty quickly.

The fact no other club is looking to do it would indicate it’s no revelation either. But hey, off you go.

Are you having another of your bull**** days 😎

[nigel-harps1954]

I think the need for an U23 league is way overstated. It'd be utterly useless for UCD for example. Maybe allowing 2/3 overage players in the 19s league might help because the old reserve league did allow players not in the first team to keep match fitness.

A proper underage structure is something pretty much every proper club in Europe has - for community development if nothing else - and I don't see how an U23 league could be considered more important than an U13 league.

A proper underage structure doesn't really start across Europe until 15/16 years of age. English clubs can't sign Irish players until they're 16 for example. They have development squads below under-17. There's nothing wrong with starting an underage structure at under-15s. If clubs want to go younger than that, it should be up to themselves to work with local leagues on that one.

I think the gap between under-19 and senior is just too big. We're losing far too many players who aren't ready for first team action but are still worth keeping at clubs to develop for another year at 19.

It's alright for UCD, who work with young players primarily. But other clubs don't have the luxury of offering scholarships and college football to the young players not ready for LOI action.

The lack of a reserve league, or a level above under-19 is sorely lacking in the LOI. At least raising the 19's league to a 20's or 21's, and allowing for two overage players per game would massively help.


There are no B teams in Spain's Segunda Division. One hasn't won it for 2 decades either.

Most of the Spanish B Teams kick in at the 3rd tier and below.

Barcelona B were in it two years ago.

It's common in leagues all across the world, never mind Europe. The USL pro, recognised as the second tier in America is full of MLS reserve sides and teams affiliated with MLS sides.

[pineapple stu]

An under 13 league is a UEFA requirement, so they obviously disagree that development starts at 15.

I don't necessarily disagree with the idea of an extra age group above 19s - though is the extra 25/30k worth it? - but I do disagree that it's clearly more valuable than an u13 league. I think Rovers are leading the way at the moment in showing the long-term benefit of a proper underage structure.

Us offering scholarships has nothing to do with anything here btw. And lots of clubs have links with colleges to offer colleges football if they want

[EatYerGreens]

Still a valid example as that has only been the case since Barcelona and Sevilla’s reserve teams were relegated together.

I don’t know on the whole idea. Spain, Germany and Holland are hardly bad examples to follow when it comes to youth development, although no obviously you can’t just take any of their templates and transfer it on to Ireland.

If the First Div needs a team and Rovers
are happy to commit to providing one in the form of their B team I see no deal breaking argument against it .

Why would it only be Rovers though, if for example Dundalk Pats and Cork all said they wanted to enter B teams in the first division - where would we go from there, how is that decision made?

The fundamental difference is that if any La Liga B Teams end up in the Segunda Division, it's because they've been good enough to get there by winning their way up the pyramid.

A Shamrock Rovers B Team would only be in the First Division of the LOI because no other teams wanted to join the league.

The Spanish case is an example of footballing integrity and success. The Irish example is one of footballing failure.

[ThirdManRun]

The main reasons for the introduction of the under age leagues was to stream line elite football to make it more favourable for the underage international teams (ie Collie O’Brien could watch Cork U17 v Galway U17 to see the best players from each division)

I think this is why the pathway finishes at U19. For example, if a player can’t play first team in LOI at the age of 19-20, it’s unlikely that he’ll be good enough enough to play U21 or Senior for Ireland.

The other side to this is that the cream of the crop always rises. Players that don’t make the grade at Pats U19 go play for Longford / Athlone.

There’s more of a need to invest properly in the underage structure to tighten up the gaps for players moving from U13 to U15 when they’re not ready than to bridge the gap from U19 to first team in my opinion!

[DCWA]

The fundamental difference is that if any La Liga B Teams end up in the Segunda Division, it's because they've been good enough to get there by winning their way up the pyramid.

A Shamrock Rovers B Team would only be in the First Division of the LOI because no other teams wanted to join the league.

The Spanish case is an example of footballing integrity and success. The Irish example is one of footballing failure.

We don’t have a proper footballing pyramid however which allows for a team to get promoted into LOI 1st div therefore the only means of entry is via application. Therefore do we allow B teams to express an interest or apply or do we just say it’s a closed shop to B teams? If we do that then surely if a club is keen enough it is open to manipulation in that they can hijack another local club to have their players playing at that level.

I don’t have strong feelings for or against really.

[marinobohs]

We don’t have a proper footballing pyramid however which allows for a team to get promoted into LOI 1st div therefore the only means of entry is via application. Therefore do we allow B teams to express an interest or apply or do we just say it’s a closed shop to B teams? If we do that then surely if a club is keen enough it is open to manipulation in that they can hijack another local club to have their players playing at that level.

I don’t have strong feelings for or against really.

If ANY LOI club wants to apply, I have no problem just dont personally see the merit in it (gain V cost involved).
One would like to think a full cost benefit analysis would be a pre requisite but this is LOI 😀