Caoimhín Kelleher GK Brentford b.1998

[third policeman]

There has to be legitimate conversations soon about O'Leary taking Kellehers place in Ireland squad if the situation continues. Bazunu, Travers, and O'Leary playing regularly in Championship while Kelleher gets 3 or 4 cup games again is unsustainable for him.


That's a really flawed argument. If he stays at Liverpool and remains their No2 then it's because Klopp is confident he can step in for Alison whenever and do a job in the highest calibre league in World football for one of its leading teams. So by what different and superior criteria should Kenny decide, he's not good enough to deputise for Bazunu? Maybe Klopp should demote him and buy O'Leary as his number 2?

[Razors left peg]

That's a really flawed argument. If he stays at Liverpool and remains their No2 then it's because Klopp is confident he can step in for Alison whenever and do a job in the highest calibre league in World football for one of its leading teams. So by what different and superior criteria should Kenny decide, he's not good enough to deputise for Bazunu? Maybe Klopp should demote him and buy O'Leary as his number 2?
Hes a footballer, a footballer should at some point of his career play football if he wants to be considered for international football

[zero]

Hes a footballer, a footballer should at some point of his career play football if he wants to be considered for international football

He'd be third choice for me. I think he has by and large been unconvincing bordering on poor in his Ireland appearances. His complete lack of games is not going to help win hearts and minds, I'd say only those with a strong bias would back him over Gav.

[seanfhear]

There's not playing and there is not playing and he is not playing.

[Eirambler]

Actually we're just coming into the peak playing season for Caoimhin now. He'll get a Carabao Cup game in September, possibly another one in October and, at a push, a quarter final before Christmas. He might even get a dead rubber Europa League game if he's lucky.

[Razors left peg]

Im not saying he should be dropped for the September games but the conversation is approaching at some point this season I think. Especially if O'Leary becomes part of a playoff push for Bristol and is playing well. I've honestly not seen enough of O'Leary to know if hes any good, but if hes playing for a good Championship team each week then he must be ok.

The logic of Kelleher is a back up to a good goalkeeper at a good club runs out after a while. At 25 years old any footballer needs to know if he can actually handle playing each week. Theres a sharpness that comes from playing games regularly that Kelleher wont develop.

[elatedscum]

Actually we're just coming into the peak playing season for Caoimhin now. He'll get a Carabao Cup game in September, possibly another one in October and, at a push, a quarter final before Christmas. He might even get a dead rubber Europa League game if he's lucky.

i understand why they want to keep him (issues around quantity of homegrown players, no competitive bids, availability of quality replacement). i think had they been able to get verbruggen to sign, they'd have sold Kelleher, but once he was offered first team football at brighton, he went there.

if i was klopp, i'd play kelleher in everything bar the league. europa league, caribao cup, fa cup. and reassess before the january deadline. europa league is a bit of poisoned chalice with thursday-sunday games a real struggle, for whatever reason. i'd let the second string lads play the europa league and keep everyone else fresh

[seanfhear]

Kelleher could turn out to be the best Keeper that hardly ever played.

[Diggs246]

He'd be third choice for me. I think he has by and large been unconvincing bordering on poor in his Ireland appearances. His complete lack of games is not going to help win hearts and minds, I'd say only those with a strong bias would back him over Gav.

This is the most important point. When called apon for Ireland he has been average. If he wasn't playing for Liverpool and still brilliant for us, then it's a conversation. But he's not been good for us

Third choice for me

[Razors left peg]

Kelleher could turn out to be the best Keeper that hardly ever played.

Im old fashioned, I like players to actually play at some point in their career, crazy idea I know!

[culloty82]

Al-Nassr have expressed an interest in Alisson - is this Kelleher's opportunity?

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/alisson-becker-gets-tempting-offer-27526922

[Eirambler]

In the event that Alisson did go they would just sign another keeper anyway. It's why Kelleher being at Liverpool is pointless, he's never going to get a decent run. He basically needs Alisson or whoever is first choice to get injured, but not while a transfer window is open, or in the run up to a transfer window opening.

Basically he needs to get injured in September, October, February or March for Kelleher to get a decent go. Otherwise he'll quickly end up as Number 2 again.

[joey B]

Starts in the Europa League this evening away at Lask Linz.

[JR89]

Irish keepers and their fondness for long range goals conceded, was some hit though.

[third policeman]

Played well. Two good saves, dealt confidently with corners, distribution calm and effective. Let's hope he gets more games.

[backstothewall]

If he gets the European and cup games this season he could end up playing as many games as Alisson.

Edit: On a quick count there's 27 games there excluding FA Cup replays. If Alisson picks up any sort of a knock and is out for a couple of weeks Kelleher could get 30+ games with one of the biggest clubs in the world.

He should definitely leave next summer if he get's that sort of exposure this season unless Alisson leaves or has some sort of career ending injury.

[JR89]

If he gets the European and cup games this season he could end up playing as many games as Alisson.

Edit: On a quick count there's 27 games there excluding FA Cup replays. If Alisson picks up any sort of a knock and is out for a couple of weeks Kelleher could get 30+ games with one of the biggest clubs in the world.

He should definitely leave next summer if he get's that sort of exposure this season unless Alisson leaves or has some sort of career ending injury.

Similar to the FA Cup I can see Liverpool dropping him for Alisson once they meet decent teams.

[SkStu]

Liverpool assistant manager Pepijn Lijnders speaking about Caoimhin Kelleher's game time:


"He has a long-term contract. For me he could play in any Premier League team. He is a world-class goalkeeper and needs game time and it is a good thing he stayed with us.

"We just are really happy he is with us because you want each position with two top ones. And top ones who can play in any game. We can put him in and the game will not change a lot. We are happy he is with us and hopefully that stays for a long time.

"It depends how players train and act in the room. You never get guaranteed games. You have to see that every training [session] is the last one of your life. If they show this, the door is open for them. We are so lucky that Premier League managers are not looking at our training! He has this talent to surprise and in training, [he does things and] you think 'how is that even possible?'"

[tommy_c12000]

All hot air until we see him play week in and week out. I assume he should start league cup tomorrow? Two games in one week, hopefully his body will withstand it!

[seanfhear]

Players reputations / careers are judged by the games they played in ~ Not by training ~ Even though training may have an important part to play in their careers.

[SkStu]

Without doubt, both of you - ive been pretty vocal about that myself on here. Another way of reading it is as a "come and get him" pitch. Anyway, just shared for info.

[seanfhear]

If Kelleher could get playing first team football at a decent level ~ Then the Irish number 1 spot is there for the taking at the moment.

[elatedscum]

i wonder how many games does he have to play to keep ticking over?

for arguments sake, if he was ireland's first choice and playing in 8 of the 10 international games in a year (8 competitive games + not playing in 2 friendlies). and if he were to play 10 games in the europa league, 5 games in the league cup, 5 games in the fa cup and 2 games in the league. then you're taking about 30 games across a season when combining club and international football.

would that be enough to satisfy everyone's needs?

my semi formed opinion on it is that he's very comfortable stepping into liverpool's first team when not having played regularly, that i wouldn't have much worry he can do it for ireland. i would have selected bazunu during the last few camps, his ireland performances have been largely good - but there is a point when his form is worrying enough at club level that you think Kelleher is a better option...

and for arguments sake, bazunu might be in a better place now had he spent 15 months on City's bench rather than moving to Southampton. in my mind, his performances have regressed since that move

[SkStu]

i wonder how many games does he have to play to keep ticking over?

for arguments sake, if he was ireland's first choice and playing in 8 of the 10 international games in a year (8 competitive games + not playing in 2 friendlies). and if he were to play 10 games in the europa league, 5 games in the league cup, 5 games in the fa cup and 2 games in the league. then you're taking about 30 games across a season when combining club and international football.

I think a better way to articulate that is whether europa league starts, cup starts and the occasional league game would be a sufficient body of evidence to judge whether Kelleher is good enough to dislodge Bazunu who is (currently) holding the #1 jersey for his club, playing 40+ games a season at the Championship level. On the face of it, yes. The problem is it is unlikely... he has about 18 appearances of that nature over a 4 season period.

Only other thing i'll comment on is that i believe Bazunu's decision to move out of his comfort zone and overcome the professional challenges and setback that he has encountered (Southampton, Rochdale, Portsmouth) will stand to him in the long term - 130 games v 18 games in the same period is a massive difference. Those leagues can be the making of a player. Kelleher (mentality, resilience, even ability) is still untested in that regard.

[joey B]

Played last night in the League Cup win against Leicester,conceded the one goal where I thought he looked a bit rooted to his line and could maybe have come out a bit,also wore the captain’s armband for the last 10 minutes or so….

[third policeman]

Nobody else seems to be criticising him for the goal. Didn't have much to do, but came out smartly to overt danger with one break, few confident catches on crosses and very tidy distribution. Has only really had one dodgy game for Liverpool, away to Southampton last year. Maybe there's something about that ground and Irish keepers.

[seanfhear]

Maybe time to return to praying to St. Mary.

[Stuttgart88]

Maybe there's something about that ground and Irish keepers. :)

What were Kelleher's XG / PSXG numbers?!

And plagiarising a comment I received from a poster here on WhatsApp, it seems Max O'Leary is leading the Championbship save % so far this season (81% I think).

It'd be funny if after all the discussion on which of the young Irish-born lads is best O'Leary comes in and stays number one!

[liamoo11]

Played last night in the League Cup win against Leicester,conceded the one goal where I thought he looked a bit rooted to his line and could maybe have come out a bit,also wore the captain’s armband for the last 10 minutes or so….

xU2pKb4AZIE

The goal is in the first 30 seconds of the highlights. I think there is zero fault here, he closes the angle and the lad has to put it in off the post to score

[Jd2793]

:)

What were Kelleher's XG / PSXG numbers?!

And plagiarising a comment I received from a poster here on WhatsApp, it seems Max O'Leary is leading the Championbship save % so far this season (81% I think).

It'd be funny if after all the discussion on which of the young Irish-born lads is best O'Leary comes in and stays number one!


PsXg on that shot last night was 0.97

[CraftyToePoke]

And plagiarising a comment I received from a poster here on WhatsApp, it seems Max O'Leary is leading the Championbship save % so far this season (81% I think).

It was 81.3% yes, its coming from @Between_TL ; Between The lines. I don't know much more beyond that as to how credible they are, they're new to me. Travers was in 7th for example with 71.8%

As s alight aside, Adam Idah leads the division in their effort on target stats comfortably with 87.5% with the next best on 80%.

[pineapple stu]

You can see it listed here (https://fbref.com/en/comps/10/Championship-Stats) (it's got more stats, and we all know that the more stats a site has, the more correct it's going to be) - 81.3%. Leicester have a higher save rate, but they've used two keepers, so I presume one keeper played one game and saved every shot, but isn't counted in the overall rankings, and the main keeper (Ward) is under 81.3%. Something like that anyway. Stoke (Travers) in seventh on 71.8%, Bazunu on 23rd on 55%. Obviously that doesn't differentiate between four-on-ones and daisy-cutters straight into your hands. (So PSxG, for example, is +1.2 for O'Leary, -2.2 for Travers and -4.9 for Bazunu)

Site also lists Idah (https://fbref.com/en/players/291e3ec3/Adam-Idah) as 87.5% shots on target as you say - an improvement on 12.9% last year (4 from 31 shots being on target). Get your shots on target - first rule of forward play and all that.

[zero]

Just on O'Leary, I was listening to 5 live over the weekend and the reporter at the Leicester Bristol City game mentioned how he was playing out of his skin, comparing one save in particular to the beloved Banks/Pele save.

[joey B]

xU2pKb4AZIE

The goal is in the first 30 seconds of the highlights. I think there is zero fault here, he closes the angle and the lad has to put it in off the post to score

Yeah I’d only seen it once on a dodgy stream and I was a bit harsh,not much he else he could have done tbf….

[CraftyToePoke]

Just on O'Leary, I was listening to 5 live over the weekend and the reporter at the Leicester Bristol City game mentioned how he was playing out of his skin, comparing one save in particular to the beloved Banks/Pele save.

Yeah, I was watching it and he was the difference between a good hiding and a 0-1 to a penalty, it took a Vardy spot kick to beat him. Played really well and Bristol are a point outside the play offs.

[Razors left peg]

The biggest thing for me with Kelleher is that there is a pressure and mindset that comes with being number 1 at a club, no matter what the level. Its about getting yourself mentally prepared every single game, dealing with lapses in form and digging yourself out, having the ability to organize your defense every week and again dealing with their lapses in form. Theres also the physical aspect of playing every week and dealing with the bumps and bruises you will inevitably pick up. To do that over a period months and years is a totally different thing than just rocking up to the odd cup game and getting praised for making a few good saves behind a good defense.

We've just never seen Kelleher be able to do any of the above because hes never even been on loan for 1 season, so we just dont know. He does seem to pick up quite a few injuries for a back up keeper too, so I do wonder if hes a little fragile physically.

Bazunu has been playing behind a horrific defense for Southampton, he hasnt looked fantastic, but I dont think hes been the reason for Southampton conceding so many goals either. I think he has looked good for Ireland in the main, but at some point with results being bad for his club and country its probably fair to wonder if changing the goalkeeper could make a difference even to the minds of the players around him. Hes still so young in goalkeeping terms to that a break might not be the worst thing for him, but at least we have seen that he has it in him to play regularly, and play well regularly, unlike Kelleher.

Travers is such an odd one. He plays so much football, again for a young keeper, but no one really would fight for him to be our 1st choice. I think its pretty much accepted that hes solid but has limitations, and Im not sure thats really fair on him. I genuinely havent seen enough of O'Leary to say how good or bad he is, but again when hes playing regularly and his stats are good he has to come into consideration.

[CraftyToePoke]

I genuinely havent seen enough of O'Leary to say how good or bad he is, but again when hes playing regularly and his stats are good he has to come into consideration.

I've kept an eye and he has had his share of moments, the usual could maybe have done better goal concessions, has lost his place a number of times but Bristol seem to think he was worth waiting on & keep putting him back in under various managers there. What remains to be seen is if this is a patch of form or if this is how he now is, as a keeper. If its the latter he comes into the Ireland jersey conversation very soon. He is 27 in October, so needs to keep it together from here really. Travers is 24, Bazunu is 21 and Kelleher will be 25 in November.

Re Kelleher, all the others needed adjustment time to first team week in week out, they all had or are having character building moments in the form of errors, if Kelleher needs that also, he hasn't left himself much space time wise for it to be indulged. He also runs the risk of there being a new manager around the time he might expect to take over the gloves, Klopp is there a while now. Would a new guy hang his shot at managing Liverpool on a keeper with so little game time ? It's doubtful I think.

[Stuttgart88]

Emi Martinez only became a first team goalkeeper about 3 years ago (with some loan spells), though had various loan spells. Matt Turner only became a first choice keeper late in his career - not even a MLS regular at Kelleher's age(?). There's more than one route to the top. Kelleher still has time to become number one at a good club in a good league but I'd prefer the Irish number one to be playing regularly.

[mypost]

The biggest thing for me with Kelleher is that there is a pressure and mindset that comes with being number 1 at a club, no matter what the level. Its about getting yourself mentally prepared every single game, dealing with lapses in form and digging yourself out, having the ability to organize your defense every week and again dealing with their lapses in form. Theres also the physical aspect of playing every week and dealing with the bumps and bruises you will inevitably pick up. To do that over a period months and years is a totally different thing than just rocking up to the odd cup game and getting praised for making a few good saves behind a good defense.

We've just never seen Kelleher be able to do any of the above because hes never even been on loan for 1 season, so we just dont know. He does seem to pick up quite a few injuries for a back up keeper too, so I do wonder if hes a little fragile physically.

Bazunu has been playing behind a horrific defense for Southampton, he hasnt looked fantastic, but I dont think hes been the reason for Southampton conceding so many goals either. I think he has looked good for Ireland in the main, but at some point with results being bad for his club and country its probably fair to wonder if changing the goalkeeper could make a difference even to the minds of the players around him. Hes still so young in goalkeeping terms to that a break might not be the worst thing for him, but at least we have seen that he has it in him to play regularly, and play well regularly, unlike Kelleher.

No he hasn't. He was rewarded for losing his last club game 5-0 before the international break, with his next game against Mbappe and Griezmann. Then he got a bonus game against Gakpo and co, where he recreated Shay Given's famous challenge from 2001. The difference of course is that we won in 2001, while this time the penalty was given, we lost, and it's probably going to cost another one of his manager's their job. That's the reward he gets for playing and losing every week in the pub league.

If he's not the reason why they are where they are, what is the reason? Given he gets regular game time, he must surely bear some responsibility for it. Here, we don't have the players to score three goals to win a match, because that's what we have to do atm. He's already helped get 2 managers sacked last year because he can't keep the ball out of his own net, and he may shortly see off two more. You can't absolve him of all responsibility for that.

Kelleher is going to have 3 games for Liverpool before the Greece game, that's playing relatively regularly by his records. He was even trusted with the captain's armband during the week, but apparantly that's still not enough belief in his ability to play for us, twice a month. If Kenny has any chance of surviving the campaign, things just can't go on as they are. It's time for fresh ideas.

[CraftyToePoke]

There are few, if indeed any alternative realities as entertaining as mypostian reality. Gavin Bazunus career represents the graveyard of multiple managers. Very good.

If this were parody it'd be hilarious but the fact that you're actually serious makes it so much funnier.

Don't go changing now, y'hear me ? You'd be missed.

[weldoninhio]

No he hasn't. He was rewarded for losing his last club game 5-0 before the international break, with his next game against Mbappe and Griezmann. Then he got a bonus game against Gakpo and co, where he recreated Shay Given's famous challenge from 2001. The difference of course is that we won in 2001, while this time the penalty was given, we lost, and it's probably going to cost another one of his manager's their job. That's the reward he gets for playing and losing every week in the pub league.

If he's not the reason why they are where they are, what is the reason? Given he gets regular game time, he must surely bear some responsibility for it. Here, we don't have the players to score three goals to win a match, because that's what we have to do atm. He's already helped get 2 managers sacked last year because he can't keep the ball out of his own net, and he may shortly see off two more. You can't absolve him of all responsibility for that.

Kelleher is going to have 3 games for Liverpool before the Greece game, that's playing relatively regularly by his records. He was even trusted with the captain's armband during the week, but apparantly that's still not enough belief in his ability to play for us, twice a month. If Kenny has any chance of surviving the campaign, things just can't go on as they are. It's time for fresh ideas.

Bazunu is twice the goalie Kelleher is. He's not going to be replaced by a part time goalie any time soon.

[Razors left peg]

No he hasn't. He was rewarded for losing his last club game 5-0 before the international break, with his next game against Mbappe and Griezmann. Then he got a bonus game against Gakpo and co, where he recreated Shay Given's famous challenge from 2001. The difference of course is that we won in 2001, while this time the penalty was given, we lost, and it's probably going to cost another one of his manager's their job. That's the reward he gets for playing and losing every week in the pub league.

If he's not the reason why they are where they are, what is the reason? Given he gets regular game time, he must surely bear some responsibility for it. Here, we don't have the players to score three goals to win a match, because that's what we have to do atm. He's already helped get 2 managers sacked last year because he can't keep the ball out of his own net, and he may shortly see off two more. You can't absolve him of all responsibility for that.

Kelleher is going to have 3 games for Liverpool before the Greece game, that's playing relatively regularly by his records. He was even trusted with the captain's armband during the week, but apparantly that's still not enough belief in his ability to play for us, twice a month. If Kenny has any chance of surviving the campaign, things just can't go on as they are. It's time for fresh ideas.

Thats just a bizarre rant, much of it incoherent tbh and capped by calling the Championship a pub league.

[third policeman]

Bazunu is twice the goalie Kelleher is. He's not going to be replaced by a part time goalie any time soon.

Ludicrous comment. Maybe Bazunu will keep his place, but that will be on the basis of form not any inherent superiority. I'll ask a few Liverpool fans whether they fancy swapping Kelleher for Bazunu. Do you fancy predicting the result?

[Razors left peg]

Ludicrous comment. Maybe Bazunu will keep his place, but that will be on the basis of form not any inherent superiority. I'll ask a few Liverpool fans whether they fancy swapping Kelleher for Bazunu. Do you fancy predicting the result?

Liverpool fans opinion on it are irrelevant because they would pick their player over prime Peter Schmeichael if it came to it. Kelleher is a part time keeper right now, and until that changes he cant be taken seriously are long term 1st choice for Ireland. Talent wise he possibly could be, 5-10 games a season isnt gonna cut it though

[elatedscum]

That's the reward he gets for playing and losing every week in the pub league.

Bazunu is twice the goalie Kelleher is. He's not going to be replaced by a part time goalie any time soon.

We've got the far left and the far right above. curious to see how Kelleher plays on Thursday but a good performance could certainly see him play for Ireland. I think Bazunu's form at club level, combined with his slight dip in performances at international level, mean that it's a reasonable question as to who will start... Think i'd marginally lean Kelleher but i don't feel at all sure, you've got two very talented keepers, neither of whom i feel confident will make the saves needed to win us matches. Both have conceded slightly soft goals at international level. Bazunu has conceded a lot of goals at club level, with a few bad ones thrown in, and his confidence is shot. I'd back him to come out the other side of it, but I don't think he's there yet.


Liverpool fans opinion on it are irrelevant because they would pick their player over prime Peter Schmeichael if it came to it. Kelleher is a part time keeper right now, and until that changes he cant be taken seriously are long term 1st choice for Ireland. Talent wise he possibly could be, 5-10 games a season isnt gonna cut it though

prime Peter has become very very very overrated with hindsight. in his 8 years in the league, he made the PFA team of the season once. it's because he was part of that United side and because of all the footage of him bollocking his defenders, and the fact he won the treble and the european cup in his last act as a United player, the legend far outweighs the quality of the player.

PFA goalkeeper in the team of the season:

1992 Tony Cotton
1993 Peter S
1994 Tim Flowers
1995 Tim Flowers
1996 David James
1997 David Seaman
1998 Nigel Martin
1999 Nigel Martin

[Razors left peg]

TBH I just picked Schmeichael randomly as a top goalkeeper that wasnt Liverpool. My point is more that they can be very biased

[third policeman]

Liverpool fans opinion on it are irrelevant because they would pick their player over prime Peter Schmeichael if it came to it. Kelleher is a part time keeper right now, and until that changes he cant be taken seriously are long term 1st choice for Ireland. Talent wise he possibly could be, 5-10 games a season isnt gonna cut it though

That's one perspective, but equally many fans would want their team to have the best players. My point is that Liverpool fans don't question Kelleher's ability in the way that he is criticised on this forum, or in the way that they consistently criticised Adrian as not being good enough. It's one of the strange aspects of this debate, that as Bazunu's form dips his supporters become increasingly extreme and irrational in their criticism of Kelleher. I don't even know what your second sentence means.

[Razors left peg]

That's one perspective, but equally many fans would want their team to have the best players. My point is that Liverpool fans don't question Kelleher's ability in the way that he is criticised on this forum, or in the way that they consistently criticised Adrian as not being good enough. It's one of the strange aspects of this debate, that as Bazunu's form dips his supporters become increasingly extreme and irrational in their criticism of Kelleher. I don't even know what your second sentence means.

There is a grand total of Zero Liverpool fans that are calling for Kelleher to be 1st choice at the club. They are delighted to have a lad sit on the bench all season who is good enough to step in the odd time to rest their main guy. Thats a very different conversation to whats had on this forum about who should be our first choice, Im quite happy for him to sit on the Ireland bench too.

The 2nd sentence meant that Kelleher might be talented but until he plays regular football he shouldnt be considered as 1st choice for us.

[third policeman]

There is a grand total of Zero Liverpool fans that are calling for Kelleher to be 1st choice at the club. They are delighted to have a lad sit on the bench all season who is good enough to step in the odd time to rest their main guy. Thats a very different conversation to whats had on this forum about who should be our first choice, Im quite happy for him to sit on the Ireland bench too.

The 2nd sentence meant that Kelleher might be talented but until he plays regular football he shouldnt be considered as 1st choice for us.

Your analogy only has any validity if you are suggesting that Bazunu is as good as Alison, which I assume you are not. The comparison is between Kelleher and Bazunu not Kelleher and Alison. You’re moving the goalposts somewhat. The latter sentence also implies that no player who is not getting regular football should be considered for selection irrespective of their talent or competition. You’re rather making my point for me.

[Razors left peg]

I'll repeat what I said in earlier post. We don't know if Kelleher can be a number 1 keeper at any level because he's never played as a number 1 at any level. The guy is now in his mid 20s so can't even really be considered a young prospect any more. Have him go and play a season of football somewhere and learn to be a professional footballer rather than a part timer and then whether he should become Irelands number 1 becomes a relevant discussion.