Caoimhín Kelleher GK Brentford b.1998

[pineapple stu]

One point to make is kelleher will be set for life financial a long time before Gavin
Because is number 2 at arguably the best team in the world
A footballer and his money are easily parted, sadly

[Stuttgart88]

Well there you are, discussion over. Diggs has nailed it.

[Razors left peg]

One point to make is kelleher will be set for life financial a long time before Gavin
Because is number 2 at arguably the best team in the world
Funny how the "arguable best team in the world" are currently only 3rd best team in their own country

[elatedscum]

Funny how the "arguable best team in the world" are currently only 3rd best team in their own country

A point behind with a game in hand. Essentially 2nd in the league… ahead of the European champions and behind the champions of England

[Razors left peg]

It's easy to play spot the Liverpool fans on this website

[Snapshot]

Facing savable shots from Vardy and Maddison was quite a lot of sweat to him, as it happens.


The Maddison shot was not savable. He did save two penalties that night, whereas his opposite number, with all his experience and reputation, didn't lay a glove on any of the ones he faced.
Of course it was. Straight at him from distance - and it goes in over his head. Shouldn't happen.

[Fixer82]

A point behind with a game in hand. Essentially 2nd in the league… ahead of the European champions and behind the champions of England

Who cares???? Honestly? I couldn’t care less if Liverpool are the best or third best team in the world.
The main thing is if the kid is getting enough games.
I think it’s harsh to judge him on the goals conceded against Leicester.
Most keepers would’ve struggled to keep them out.
He’s a great talent and hopefully we see more of him for Liverpool.

Bazunu is a great talent too but has had a few brain farts for Ireland too. Yes he saved a peno V Ronaldo but Ronaldo wouldn’t have had the peno if it wasn’t for Bazunu’s mistake

[third policeman]

Suppositions? EPL bench warmer, L1 loanee and C'ship regular is just statement of fact. Provided Travers' form holds up - and especially if Bournemouth are promoted - he would have a very strong claim.

The suppositions were your fanciful predictions on future career prospects which were not statements of fact.

[third policeman]

He'd have much more luck if he went somewhere he'd be guaranteed games!

For those that are defending him staying there to be number 2. At what age should he move it he continues to be a number 2? With Allison being only 29 should Kelleher stay until he's 25/28/30 ?

At 23 he should be playing regularly now if he's as good as some make him out to be

Interesting point and I guess Kelleher will have to make that call within the next two years. He’s going to struggle to displace Allison, but Bazunu also has a challenge ahead. Will City promote him to number 2 in which case he’ll be bench warming, or does he go out on loan again or seek a move? Ideally we’d like to see them both playing regularly at PL level, but there’s no obvious immediate route for ether of them at present. At the risk of antagonising the Bazunu lobby and showing my LFC bias, I’d say Kelleher has the better prospects of getting a move to a lower PL or Championship side on the basis of his current status at Liverpool. Bazunu is a great prospect, but is still developing and is prone to the odd error. Including Travers, I’d say all three are better keepers now than Randolph ever was, so whatever happens next, it’s not an area of weakness in the current squad.

[Snapshot]

The suppositions were your fanciful predictions on future career prospects which were not statements of fact.
Not supposition - opinion. Your comeback comments are reasonable - if mean spirited to Randolph who, despite an underwhelming club career, was rarely less than solid for Ireland over 50 caps.

[third policeman]

Not supposition - opinion. Your comeback comments are reasonable - if mean spirited to Randolph who, despite an underwhelming club career, was rarely less than solid for Ireland over 50 caps.

True Randolph never let us down, but he was an adequate rather than an outstanding international goalkeeper. Take your point about opinion rather than supposition, still think Kelleher and Bazunu will have PL careers ultimately.

[mypost]

Of course it was. Straight at him from distance - and it goes in over his head. Shouldn't happen.

Well when you watch the replays, you know why it did happen. He had no chance at all.


…and only a couple of days later saved a pen from Salah who hadn’t missed in ages. Also saved a pen from Kane in Euros semi final. How often does Kane miss pens?

The teenage Irish keeper playing in a rubbish league saved a pen - during an actual match against a tier 1 international team, rather than a shoot out - from one of the world’s best ever players and a wholly reliable penalty taker.

Well done for that. Unfortunately he couldn't keep him out all night long, and the game was lost anyway. So the penalty save was a mere footnote in the game, rather than the saves that made the difference, as in Kelleher's case.

As for the rest, well none of it has any relevance to Kelleher whatsoever.

[Stuttgart88]

As I said above, it's clear you're not arguing in good faith. If you are, then I'm worried for you.

[pineapple stu]

A penalty save only reflects well on a keeper if his side subsequently wins the match?

Right you are so

[Razors left peg]

Kelleher is 4 years older than Bazunu and has never played any sort of regular 1st team football. If Bazunu has 1 or 2 seasons on the bench at City it wouldn't be the end of the world, but if at 23 or 24 hes still a bench warmer I'd be worried.

There's only 2 years difference in the age gap between Kelleher and Allison and Kelleher and Bazunu. Allison is still a young goalkeeper so unless Liverpool are going to cash in on him any time soon Kelleher is gonna have to move on.

In the States its not uncommon for a new Quaterback to sit on the bench for a year behind an experienced guy to learn the ropes, but if by year 2 or 3 they aren't ready to take over they have to move and it's unlikely they'll get a starter spot elsewhere because competition is so fierce. Kelleher isn't a kid anymore, he needs to show he can be the main man somewhere.

I know he hasn't been the official number 2 for all the years he's been there but he has been training the the top coaches and great goalkeeper for years now. This is the excuse many are making for why he should stay, but again I ask the question, stay until when?

At 26 is it still good enough for him to be number 2 to 32 year old Allison? Who knows, by then Liverpool might have churned out 3 more brilliant young keepers.

My opinion is that at the end of this season if he's not looking to move on to play at least on loan he is just comfortable with a paycheck and doesn't have the drive to be a top class keeper anyway

[third policeman]

Interestingly Allison was 25 before he became number 1 at Roma. Didn’t do him a great deal of harm.

[Razors left peg]

Interestingly Allison was 25 before he became number 1 at Roma. Didn’t do him a great deal of harm.

He had 80 appearances at Internacional before that...

[mypost]

Kelleher is 4 years older than Bazunu and has never played any sort of regular 1st team football. If Bazunu has 1 or 2 seasons on the bench at City it wouldn't be the end of the world, but if at 23 or 24 hes still a bench warmer I'd be worried.

There's only 2 years difference in the age gap between Kelleher and Allison and Kelleher and Bazunu. Allison is still a young goalkeeper so unless Liverpool are going to cash in on him any time soon Kelleher is gonna have to move on.

I know he hasn't been the official number 2 for all the years he's been there but he has been training the the top coaches and great goalkeeper for years now. This is the excuse many are making for why he should stay, but again I ask the question, stay until when?

At 26 is it still good enough for him to be number 2 to 32 year old Allison? Who knows, by then Liverpool might have churned out 3 more brilliant young keepers.

My opinion is that at the end of this season if he's not looking to move on to play at least on loan he is just comfortable with a paycheck and doesn't have the drive to be a top class keeper anyway

He's made his decision to stay. You have to respect that. He's well aware of the knock on effects on his international career, but he didn't lose the Ireland shirt because he was a No. 2. He lost it because he was injured at the time the decision was made by Kenny. How did he get injured? After playing a senior team game.

He hasn't decided to move. He is 3 games away from a League Cup winners medal at Wembley. Hopefully he will be rewarded for his patience and get a decent amount of games this month. He should if Allison is out and the No. 3 is still injured.

I have no problem with Bazunu wanting to play every week. I have a problem with a keeper at a L1 club bring considered good enough to be the No. 1 keeper for his country, when there are other options at a higher level available.

[Razors left peg]

Travers is the only one playing at a higher level than Bazunu for now, Kelleher doesn't play. It's not like Bazunu is cast away to L1 either cos he's crap, he's a 19 year old at one of biggest clubs in world, sent out to get some experience and it's going brilliantly.

And my point wasnt about Kelleher 1st choice for Ireland it was about him improving as a player. He needs to play for that to happen.

[tetsujin1979]

Question: who will play more games - Kelleher for Liverpool, or Bazunu for Manchester City?

[Razors left peg]

Most likely neither will play a whole lot for either club, but right now I think Bazunu is and will be a better goalkeeper considering he is 4 years younger and already has far more experience

[Jd2793]

Question: who will play more games - Kelleher for Liverpool, or Bazunu for Manchester City?

well when you have people discounting games that kelleher actually plays for liverpool you'd have to say they'll both end on 0

[ontheotherhand]

well when you have people discounting games that kelleher actually plays for liverpool you'd have to say they'll both end on 0

Nobody is discounting games. Games are the whole point. A handful of them when Liverpool usually aren't worried about the result is not enough to develop as a player or tell us or the international coaching staff much about what he can do when it counts. Watching football is a poor substitute for playing it imop. If any coaches disagree I'd love to hear the rationale. He is still #2 for Ireland based on his current situation so it's not a terrible decision. He might even be #1 if not for his unlucky tendency to pick up injuries when needed.

People aren't even saying Kelleher is a bad keeper. They are saying he made a bad call by warming the bench behind arguably the best keeper in the world. The point is made that he leapfrogged the other options...but they proved themselves unreliable. They are also still paid by Liverpool right? So there's a wage bill to balance there and Kelleher is potentially just a solid option on a low wage. There's at least as big a chance Liverpool replace Alisson with another experienced keeper and Kelleher then needs to find an EPL club willing to sign a guy who hasn't been tested over a season of men's football yet at all. They will have plenty of other options. It's not a position you sign someone to bring on for 15 mins to see if he's ready. You buy out of the box reliability. All the top EPL clubs went out to get keepers that made an immediate impact.

Liverpool fans and the anti Kenny brigade disagree for their own reasons but I'd say you'd be hard pressed to find a majority of neutrals who:

A - think warming the bench at 23 is good enough experience to be automatic #1 at international level when we have options being tested week in week out.

B - agree that Bazunu isn't doing very well at club and international level and progressing at what Kelleher should view as an alarming rate if he really wants the Irish jersey. Pointing to the few errors is the usual argument against him but I'd personally rather see a 19 year learn from his own mistakes than a 23 year old having to simulate the mistakes of others in his head to learn from them. Travers has arguably come on even more and he's also out there making mistakes and learning the job.

Hopefully Kelleher gets a good run of games soon and shows everyone what he can do. For now he's been a very able deputy at both levels but we all want more from him.

[ontheotherhand]

Starting today against Chelsea by the looks of it. Great opportunity for him. He's about the same age as Alisson was when he took over from Dida at Internacional.

[Jd2793]

Nobody is discounting games. Games are the whole point. A handful of them when Liverpool usually don't care about the result is not enough to develop as a player or tell us or the international coaching staff much about what he can do when it counts. Watching football is a poor substitute for playing it imop. If any coaches disagree I'd love to hear the rationale. He is still #2 for Ireland based on his current situation so it's not a terrible decision. He might even be #1 if not for his tendency to pick up injuries when needed.

People aren't even saying Kelleher is a bad keeper. They are saying he made a bad call by warming the bench behind arguably the best keeper in the world. People are saying he leapfrogged the other options...but they proved themselves unreliable. They are also still paid by Liverpool right? So there's a wage bill to balance there and Kelleher is potentially just a solid option on a low wage. There's at least as big a chance Liverpool replace Alisson with another experienced keeper and Kelleher then needs to find an EPL club willing to sign a guy who hasn't been tested over a season of men's football yet at all. They will have plenty of other options. It's not a position you sign someone to bring on for 15 mins to see if he's ready. You buy out of the box reliability. All the top EPL clubs went out to get keepers that made an immediate impact.

Liverpool fans and the anti Kenny brigade disagree for their own reasons but Id say you'd be hard pressed to find a majority of neutrals who:

A - think warming the bench at 23 is good enough experience to be automatic #1 at international level when we have options being tested week in week out.

B - agree that Bazunu isn't doing very well at club and international level and progressing at what Kelleher should view as an alarming rate if he really wants the Irish jersey. Pointing to the few errors is the usual argument against him but I'd personally rather see a 19 year learn from his own mistakes than a 23 year old having to simulate the mistakes of others in his head to learn from them. Travers has arguably come on even more and he's also out there making mistakes and learning the job.

Hopefully Kelleher gets a good run of games soon and shows everyone what he can do. For now he's an able deputy at both levels.


How can you say a 23 year old made a bad call by signing a contract with one of the best teams on the planet to be their no2?? hes clearly highly rated enough to be given a deal there. Context is very important, the keepers closest in age to CK are Meisler (2000) Ramsdale (1998) and Sanchez (97) are GKs starting with their clubs as no1. Playing constantly at the highest level as a GK is very rare when you are u26. im NOT suggesting he is some world class GK nor am I suggesting Bazunu is either. People need to park ****ting on a 23 year old Liverpool no2 though. No reason he cant be a very good keeper if he moves on in time to come. I dont see any advantage of him playing with a L1 team right now over being Allisons deputy.

on a) It was good enough for Randolph? he barely played for West Ham in 15/16 , the same summer we were in the euros.

[ontheotherhand]

It's a bad call in terms of his international career right now which is presumably what this thread is about? You could also argue it's bad for his club career as if he is really almost as good as Alisson he'd be starting almost anywhere else on a bigger wage. I've said before that his decision might turn out great. It might also end up with him warming the bench for another 2 or 3 seasons while other options improve at Liverpool and for Ireland. He is 23 and has lost the Irish jersey to a 19 year old. If he was undisputed #1 at any club in the EPL or even Championship for the past season or two then Bazunu would have only been filling in for him briefly before returning the jersey.

But nobody is ****ting on Kelleher either. It's the Kelleher/Liverpool supporters who seem to want to **** on all the other options from what I can see.

Most people want all our options playing football.

#2 at Liverpool is better than being #2 at Lincoln but it's still #2. Let's hope he gets a run of games now and puts any doubts to rest.

[pineapple stu]

Nobody is discounting games.
Actually...


By that logic, we have a keeper who’s with the best premier league team (Man City) who has only played 5 less genuine senior games than Caoimhin at Liverpool (I don’t count the domestic cup games he played in considering the teams that were put out).

[ontheotherhand]

Ah I can't read every post stu. I'm trying to start 2022 with some degree of sanity.

[sadloserkid]

If we're to be picky the original claim was that 'people' were discounting Kelleher's games when it seems to me that ONLY one person wasn't counting ONLY the League Cup games on Kelleher's CV. It's hardly evidence of a sweeping anti-Kelleher/LFC feeling among the masses of plebs who don't understand the mystical properties associated with the bench at Anfield.

All that said I would have rated him highest of the three contenders a year ago and I think a run of games could benefit him. Hopefully he gives a statement against Chelsea.

[pineapple stu]

Well that's true. I said I'd flag it though as it was what Jd2793 was referring to, which otoh had missed.

I think if we can all agree it's silly to discount Kelleher's cup games, then we're all good :)

[elatedscum]

Out of curiosity, what level of football would be advantageous to Kelleher? Jaros spent the season playing for Pats - would that level be of any use to him? How would league 2? League 1? The championship? SPL? SPL2? At what point does that balance tip towards playing games…?

[sadloserkid]

Agreed. Discounting any games is odd and, whatever about the significance of the League Cup overall, it's hardly any lower a standard than League 1 anyway.

Wiki also taught me today that Kelleher's brother plays occasionally for Bradford, a fact which had completely escaped me.

[Jd2793]

Out of curiosity, what level of football would be advantageous to Kelleher? Jaros spent the season playing for Pats - would that level be of any use to him? How would league 2? League 1? The championship? SPL? SPL2? At what point does that balance tip towards playing games…?

If a PL club is loaning a player to LOI its a sure sign they see no future for that player at PL level.

[ontheotherhand]

Well that's true. I said I'd flag it though as it was what Jd2793 was referring to, which otoh had missed.

I think if we can all agree it's silly to discount Kelleher's cup games, then we're all good :)

Absolutely. Can't discount any games within reason. I would say that cup games featuring weakened sides when Liverpool either think the result isn't in doubt or isn't worth much to them aren't the same level as regular EPL game time. There seems to be a few who think any game for any Liverpool team is better than a high pressure game at a lower level and I'm not sure on that. Particularly for young players who need to make mistakes and learn. Again open to correction by any coaches who'd disagree. I'm no coach.

To elatedscums question I think our current national side needs players playing competitive games at League 1 and above level. So that's the sort of level that counts. Bazunus games for Rovers don't mean much. If Kelleher had a season of League 1 or Championship under his belt I think he'd be Ireland #1 now even if he was warming the bench at Liverpool..he'd have had the jersey already ahead of other options and Bazunu would have been just filling in when he was injured. That's where it's hurt him for me.

To a point Jd273 made that I missed, Randolph is a similarish case to Kelleher but crucially (for me) Randolph had multiple seasons of senior football under his belt and no potentially world class teenage waiting in the wing when Given was on his way out. He'd sort of already become the #1 in waiting hadn't he? I don't remember the period well but the other option on the bench around then seems to have been Forde?

Big day today for Kelleher. I hope he shows his class.

[pineapple stu]

I would say that cup games featuring weakened sides when Liverpool either think the result isn't in doubt or isn't worth much to them aren't the same level as regular EPL game time.
Certainly not the same as EPL games.

Better than League One games? I think so, for reasons already given. (That is, the top top teams regularly play weakened sides in the Cup competitions and yet still do quite well in them. Their second string sides are very good)

But then there's the balance of course of 7 cup games v 50 third tier games for a young player over a period of 18 months or so.

Westwood was the other option when Randolph came in btw (in fact, he was given the number 1 jersey for the Euro 2016 finals, when he was somewhat surprisingly picked ahead of Forde)

[ontheotherhand]

Certainly not the same as EPL games.

Better than League One games? I think so, for reasons already given. (That is, the top top teams regularly play weakened sides in the Cup competitions and yet still do quite well in them. Their second string sides are very good)

But then there's the balance of course of 7 cup games v 50 third tier games for a young player over a period of 18 months or so.

Westwood was the other option when Randolph came in btw (in fact, he was given the number 1 jersey for the Euro 2016 finals, when he was somewhat surprisingly picked ahead of Forde)

Cheers Stu. Westwood seems to have been a bit unlucky throughout.

On the topic at hand - It's not just cup games being of a lower quality for me. Kelleher has played some big teams and serious opposition. It's that Liverpool don't care as much about the result. It's a low pressure environment. Travers and Bazunu are playing higher pressure games even if the players around them are lower quality than Kelleher faces. Maybe I'm wrong but I just think that's a better test of a young keeper. He has played some bigger games of course and today is one of them. So let's go Kelleher.

[pineapple stu]

Liverpool mightn't be too worried about the result, but I suppose the flip side is the players might. It's a real chance for them to show that they can offer something to the first team. A poor game might be the start of the manager mentally writing them off and looking for a replacement. It's a different kind of pressure of course.

But no doubting that today's game is definitely a big one. Let's hope he does well in it. Two of his three Premier League games have been as a spectator. This will be quite different.

[ontheotherhand]

Liverpool mightn't be too worried about the result, but I suppose the flip side is the players might. It's a real chance for them to show that they can offer something to the first team. A poor game might be the start of the manager mentally writing them off and looking for a replacement. It's a different kind of pressure of course.

But no doubting that today's game is definitely a big one. Let's hope he does well in it. Two of his three Premier League games have been as a spectator. This will be quite different.

Maybe not! Liverpool are streets ahead of Chelsea from what I'm seeing. Only switched it on with 20 mins gone. Kelleher has looked nice and calm when he's been needed to take a ball and give it back but Liverpool should be 3 up already!

[ontheotherhand]

Bazunu would have caught that.

[sadloserkid]

Bazunu would have caught that.

With one hand and his eyes closed. :)

[passinginterest]

Nothing much he could have done with the first. Thought he was indecisive for the second probably should have kept coming to close down or just stayed on his line and he did neither.

[ontheotherhand]

Just saw his save from Pulisic. Did well. Couldn't do much about the 1st. Maybe should have come out for the second? Rocket of a finish not many would have gotten a hand to.

[pineapple stu]

Maybe not! Liverpool are streets ahead of Chelsea from what I'm seeing. Only switched it on with 20 mins gone. Kelleher has looked nice and calm when he's been needed to take a ball and give it back but Liverpool should be 3 up already!
For the love of God would you switch it back off!! :p

[ontheotherhand]

For the love of God would you switch it back off!! :p


In the context of this thread you've hid your allegiances nicely.....

[pineapple stu]

Ha!

Not a Liverpool fan. Just would be good to have something nice to report about an Irish keeper in a top level game.

[ontheotherhand]

Well he will get his chance to prove himself at least!

[tommy_c12000]

Good performance from Caoimhin. One excellent save, a couple more standard saves, reasonable distribution apart from one wayward pass, and couldn’t do anything about the goals. Overall, very solid. Great to see from an irish perspective.

[pineapple stu]

From the Guardian live report -


“I agree, Rob,” says Nora. “Kelleher is a composed young goalkeeper and he is Irish.”

With Kelleher and Gavin Bazunu, Ireland should be okay in that department for the next, gulp, 15-20 years.

Sounds like the foot.ie rows will continue for a while to come so :)

[joey B]

Kelleher didn’t look out of place at all I thought,didn’t actually have a lot of saves to make but most of what he did was composed and solid….

[ontheotherhand]

From the Guardian live report -



Sounds like the foot.ie rows will continue for a while to come so :)


But sure that's what most of us have been saying!