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Real ale Madrid
04/03/2019, 12:26 PM
I think it’s funny that you (and RAM) are taking time to defend the Green New Deal when the majority of AOC’s colleagues have swerved sharply to avoid being associated with it. It has been criticized as completely unworkable by quite a few senior ranking members of the DNC.


Nonsense - look at the list of Co-sponsors:
https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-resolution/59/cosponsors?q=%7B%22search%22%3A%5B%22markey%22%5D% 7D
All prominent Democrats - a few of them are running for president.

SkStu
04/03/2019, 12:33 PM
Nonsense - look at the list of Co-sponsors:
https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-resolution/59/cosponsors?q=%7B%22search%22%3A%5B%22markey%22%5D% 7D
All prominent Democrats - a few of them are running for president.

I see 11, RAM. There are 430 something House of Representatives members.

Real ale Madrid
04/03/2019, 12:51 PM
I see 11, RAM. There are 430 something House of Representatives members.

Well as posted already there is approx 80% poll support, it has the support of some very prominent Senators - the House may be tougher but I'm not sure the 'majority' as you say are diametrically opposed to it. I have not seen any evidence that some colleagues have "sharply swerved" the Deal either - while many have expressed some doubts on certain aspects of it. No doubt there will be some parts of it that will have to be amended but thats only natural for such a sweeping resolution.

mark12345
04/03/2019, 8:39 PM
Sheep aren't great, I think pigs are better and fowl are relatively low. All-in-all GHG emissions from livestock globally make up about the same amount as transportation. One important difference to note - while methane is actually a more potent GHG than CO2, it stays in the atmosphere for only about 15 years, as opposed to 100 for CO2. So the best option is to go more plant-based (now I'm not vegetarian myself, but I'm not freaked out by the idea of eating more plant-based products)


I'm sure there's going to be a lot of huge numbers thrown out without context over the next couple of months, as though there's going to be no cost to not doing this and no benefit from having improved rail/electrical infrastructure and no plans for spending money on anything. The reality is the cost to inaction will be immense and is already beginning (I see that Ireland is looking like Canada again for the second year in a row-an unthinkable scenario before I left Cork in 1999, not to mention the direct hit from a hurricane in 2017-this costs lots of money to deal with). Much of the cost will be taken on through private investment if the right incentives are made through subsidies (giving out and removing) and taxes. Also, if the MAGA people could stop acting in a manner that increases emissions just to spite Democrats, that would probably reduce emissions by a fair percentage for a really low cost, and would be nice.
This is a potentially existential crisis for humanity with the potential for massive snowball effects - even President Trump's pet "crisis" of immigration will be larger by orders of magnitude if we don't deal with it fast - it's not as though anybody wants climate change to be happening... but it is. When you think about it that way, even if the $9 Trillion figure you mention over 12 years is correct (roughly the same as US Military spending BTW), then that's a worthwhile investment.


You make a lot of decent points to be fair. I have seen the effort to clean up plastics in the oceans in Europe and Asia and that is highly commendable. It can only help in the long run. And I am all for planting two trees to replace one (as the slogan goes). That will surely help down the road also. Indeed, not too long ago I drove past a mountain which had been struck by a tornado. Such devistation I have never seen. Trees ripped from their roots and whole paths cut through the forest. And that was just one isolated weather event. On the other hand the wildfires in the Western US are catastrophic. No trees left for miles upon miles. The ground eventually turns into scrub and then desert and that surely detracts from the earth's ability to absorb toxins in the atmosphere. If this green plan was something more along those lines (cleaning up plastics and planting more trees) - after all America is full of electric cars and energency saving appliances as it is, although there is plenty of room for improvement - it would be more palatable. What people don't like is the apparent ending of air and automobile travel. That is a bit oppressive and controlling to my mind. I can tell you that although it was all the talk a few weeks ago, enthusiasm appears to have cooled and AOC's popularity appears to be on the wane. Although she is still a force to be reckoned with.
Regarding Trump's stance on immigration - it is anything but a pet project. Just recently a truck coming across the Southern border was found to contain enough Fentanyl to kill 60 million Americans (there was another similar incident last year with a larger haul).
Among the regular people who sneak across the border there are all manner of criminals coming in, including some 80,000 MS 13 gang members currently in the country after sneaking across.

Real ale Madrid
05/03/2019, 4:43 AM
Among the regular people who sneak across the border there are all manner of criminals coming in, including some 80,000 MS 13 gang members currently in the country after sneaking across.

How do they know which gang they are in? Do they all fill out a form?

SkStu
05/03/2019, 12:28 PM
Is that all you have RAM?

In a way they do fill out a form. On their faces, necks and chests. In permanent marker.

Real ale Madrid
05/03/2019, 2:49 PM
Is that all you have RAM?

In a way they do fill out a form. On their faces, necks and chests. In permanent marker.

What you mean? Do mean to tell me that 80,000 of these guys have come over from Guatemala to the USA from this gang do you? The population of Limerick City. There is no way you would be able to prove that. You might as well say 800 people or 8 million people. Its absolute nonsense.

SkStu
05/03/2019, 3:16 PM
What you mean? Do mean to tell me that 80,000 of these guys have come over from Guatemala to the USA from this gang do you? The population of Limerick City. There is no way you would be able to prove that. You might as well say 800 people or 8 million people. Its absolute nonsense.

I'm sorry but you have changed your argument. That is not the question you asked of Mark. You didn't dispute the number he posted; you asked how would they know which gang they are in and you enquired whether they fill out a form. My response was nothing to do with the number (because that wasn't what you asked) but was intended to point out that they don't need to fill out forms - a lot of these gangs have certain symbols that they must get tattooed all over their bodies as part of their initiation into said gang. Quite easy to identify. Symbols and identification are kind of a gang thing, RAM.

You can shout "absolute nonsense" all you like but, before you do, at least try and stay consistent with the information you are challenging and the questions you are asking. It will make for a far more enjoyable experience for all.

If you are deciding to now challenge whether it is 80,000 MS13 members that have crossed the border, my answer is simple. Even if it was just one of these animals that had crossed the border, then it would be one too many and steps should be taken to discourage any more from crossing. Do you agree?

Real ale Madrid
05/03/2019, 4:22 PM
I'm sorry but you have changed your argument. That is not the question you asked of Mark. You didn't dispute the number he posted; you asked how would they know which gang they are in and you enquired whether they fill out a form. My response was nothing to do with the number (because that wasn't what you asked) but was intended to point out that they don't need to fill out forms - a lot of these gangs have certain symbols that they must get tattooed all over their bodies as part of their initiation into said gang. Quite easy to identify. Symbols and identification are kind of a gang thing, RAM.


I was CLEARLY being facetious Stu. If you thought that the idea of Gang members ticking the affiliated gang on a form was a serious point then I'm not sure how to tease that out any further.



You can shout "absolute nonsense" all you like but, before you do, at least try and stay consistent with the information you are challenging and the questions you are asking. It will make for a far more enjoyable experience for all.

Telling us without back-up that there was 80,000 MS-13 crossing the border into the US is nonsense - if you can back up that figure in any meaningful way from a reasonable source then we can tease it out. I'm not sure I can be more consistent.


If you are deciding to now challenge whether it is 80,000 MS13 members that have crossed the border, my answer is simple. Even if it was just one of these animals that had crossed the border, then it would be one too many and steps should be taken to discourage any more from crossing. Do you agree?

I do.

But he would save a lot more lives by declaring a National emergency on handguns.

SkStu
05/03/2019, 4:42 PM
I was CLEARLY being facetious Stu. If you thought that the idea of Gang members ticking the affiliated gang on a form was a serious point then I'm not sure how to tease that out any further.

I was kind of hoping you would sense the droll sarcasm in my response. :)



Telling us without back-up that there was 80,000 MS-13 crossing the border into the US is nonsense - if you can back up that figure in any meaningful way from a reasonable source then we can tease it out. I'm not sure I can be more consistent.

I didn't proffer the statistic. I will repeat. I answered the question you asked "how would they know which gang they are in?". You called my response "absolute nonsense" in the context of a question that was never asked.


I do.

But he would save a lot more lives by declaring a National emergency on handguns.

I think that is a valid point alright and worthy of some analysis but I would offer the following initial thoughts. Perhaps he has not done that for the same reasons as a litany of other presidents who have also failed to do so when it would have been equally appropriate/inappropriate (delete as applicable). My speculation would be that there are two main reasons why all presidents have chosen not to do so. 1) Money talks and "there aint no money like the NRA money" as the old saying goes (theres no such saying :) ) - and 2) it would be challenged immediately as an unconstitutional provision going specifically against the 2nd amendment provisions - "...the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" [edit: which, if successful would likely close the door on the matter completely given the current make-up of the SCOTUS]. In the interest of transparency and to state my position on this issue, I think there should be a full review of the existing restrictions on what arms can be sold to the public an updated list developed, loopholes closed and that the full package should be put to the people (to whom the right belongs) to remove or amend the constitutional right. That referendum would be fascinating. But even that is a risky endeavor from a public safety perspective, not to mention implementation.

Irrespective of my thoughts above, I do think that this is potentially holding Trump to a standard that is higher than that to which his predecessors were held - which I think is unfair.

osarusan
05/03/2019, 5:45 PM
Among the regular people who sneak across the border there are all manner of criminals coming in, including some 80,000 MS 13 gang members currently in the country after sneaking across.

Hi, do you have a source for this please.

Eminence Grise
05/03/2019, 8:23 PM
holding Trump to a standard that is higher than that to which his predecessors were held - which I think is unfair.

Holding Trump to even the lowest standard standard is wishful thinking.


Hi, do you have a source for this please.

The man told him. Y'know. The. Man.

SkStu
05/03/2019, 8:45 PM
Holding Trump to even the lowest standard standard is wishful thinking.

Why don't you contribute when you are willing to do so in a constructive manner on the issues.

samhaydenjr
06/03/2019, 12:44 AM
You make a lot of decent points to be fair. I have seen the effort to clean up plastics in the oceans in Europe and Asia and that is highly commendable. It can only help in the long run. And I am all for planting two trees to replace one (as the slogan goes). That will surely help down the road also. Indeed, not too long ago I drove past a mountain which had been struck by a tornado. Such devistation I have never seen. Trees ripped from their roots and whole paths cut through the forest. And that was just one isolated weather event. On the other hand the wildfires in the Western US are catastrophic. No trees left for miles upon miles. The ground eventually turns into scrub and then desert and that surely detracts from the earth's ability to absorb toxins in the atmosphere. If this green plan was something more along those lines (cleaning up plastics and planting more trees) - after all America is full of electric cars and energency saving appliances as it is, although there is plenty of room for improvement - it would be more palatable. What people don't like is the apparent ending of air and automobile travel. That is a bit oppressive and controlling to my mind. I can tell you that although it was all the talk a few weeks ago, enthusiasm appears to have cooled and AOC's popularity appears to be on the wane. Although she is still a force to be reckoned with.

Thank you for remaining open-minded - that little bit in bold is where the problem with Fox News and others lies - there's nothing in the Green New Deal about ending air and automobile travel, just providing investments to support Zero Emissions Vehicles, high-speed rail and public transportation and it emphasises "as much as is technologically feasible", as it does for many of its proposals. The market will still provide automobiles, just zippy EVs - for some manufacturers, they may just need a nudge from government, plus there needs to be continuous investment in battery technology. And wouldn't it be nice to avoid the TSA and Spirit Airlines when you want to travel to another city in your region?


Regarding Trump's stance on immigration - it is anything but a pet project. Just recently a truck coming across the Southern border was found to contain enough Fentanyl to kill 60 million Americans (there was another similar incident last year with a larger haul).
Among the regular people who sneak across the border there are all manner of criminals coming in, including some 80,000 MS 13 gang members currently in the country after sneaking across.


If you are deciding to now challenge whether it is 80,000 MS13 members that have crossed the border, my answer is simple. Even if it was just one of these animals that had crossed the border, then it would be one too many and steps should be taken to discourage any more from crossing. Do you agree?

That's like saying the border between Ireland and Britain should have been closed for the last half a century

Justice department figures - 10,000 MS 13 members in US, most joined in the US - https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/five-myths/five-myths-about-ms-13/2018/06/29/5860f1c4-7b17-11e8-93cc-6d3beccdd7a3_story.html?utm_term=.3e92cdd18771

SkStu
06/03/2019, 1:58 AM
That's like saying the border between Ireland and Britain should have been closed for the last half a century

It’s not at all like that. They were/are politically and geographically very different situations. That’s a bad analogy Sam, with respect, and if nothing else I’m not at all calling for a closed border (perhaps depending on how you’d define “closed”).

Not to let the thread go too far down this rabbit hole but the British government was doing all it could to prevent known terrorists from entering into Britain during the troubles. They were gathering intelligence about the movements of known terrorists North and south of the border to prevent cross border/channel travel and were carrying out thorough ID checks at all ports of entry. In addition, the NI/Ireland border was policed and patrolled almost constantly during the troubles and there was, of course, the so called “nuclear option” that was discussed a few times during the troubles which was a militarized wall between NI and Ireland. It was never implemented as it would have been a powder keg but it was a serious consideration of the British Govt more than once at the height of the troubles.

Long story short I think that any government has an obligation to protect its people from anyone that it knows wants to enter into its country with nefarious intent. Do you agree?

A border wall (which does not equal a “closed border”) would funnel all migrants - good, bad and indifferent - through formal ports of entry. Criminals and gang members would be weeded out or would not even try. This would be a good thing. No?

Eminence Grise
06/03/2019, 7:41 AM
Why don't you contribute when you are willing to do so in a constructive manner on the issues.

That is constructive. Personally I find that racism, sexism, misogyny, bullying, saying neo-Nazis are good people, declaring serial bankruptcy to avoid paying debts, delusional lying, strategic lying and disinformation, incoherent ranting to whip up fear and anger, ranting about illegal immigrants but employing them because they're cheap, cosying up to dictators, Obama's birth cert bull5hit, surrounding oneself with now convicted felons as advisors, surrounding oneself by advisors like Bolton and Bannon, setting up a bogus real estate college and settling out of court with swindled students, tax cuts for the rich while the poor get poorer, throwing a tantrum that led to the longest shutdown and getting a worse deal than was originally on the table, paying off porn stars and centrefolds because one can't keep it in one's pants, being led by the nose by Fox, narcissism, nepotism, cowardice in serial draft dodging with a fabricated medical complaint as serious as a broken nail, cowardice in knowing one is a coward and loathing people who served with distinction in their country's armed force as a consequence, acting like a tin-pot dictator and failing to inspire confidence in one's ability to organise the proverbial in a brewery point to generally low standards. And need to be called out.

Apologises if I've left something out. I'm sure someone will correct the record.

dahamsta
06/03/2019, 11:30 AM
Lads, ye're going to start providing sources for your claims in this thread or I'm going to have to shut it down. Non-paywalled sources.

If you make a claim without sources, and it's refuted, you need to retract it in your original post, or in a new post.

Evidence and facts please. You're not allowed to state an opinion without them.

Persistent offenders will be banned from this forum.

SkStu
06/03/2019, 12:23 PM
That is constructive. Personally I find that racism, sexism, misogyny, bullying, saying neo-Nazis are good people, declaring serial bankruptcy to avoid paying debts, delusional lying, strategic lying and disinformation, incoherent ranting to whip up fear and anger, ranting about illegal immigrants but employing them because they're cheap, cosying up to dictators, Obama's birth cert bull5hit, surrounding oneself with now convicted felons as advisors, surrounding oneself by advisors like Bolton and Bannon, setting up a bogus real estate college and settling out of court with swindled students, tax cuts for the rich while the poor get poorer, throwing a tantrum that led to the longest shutdown and getting a worse deal than was originally on the table, paying off porn stars and centrefolds because one can't keep it in one's pants, being led by the nose by Fox, narcissism, nepotism, cowardice in serial draft dodging with a fabricated medical complaint as serious as a broken nail, cowardice in knowing one is a coward and loathing people who served with distinction in their country's armed force as a consequence, acting like a tin-pot dictator and failing to inspire confidence in one's ability to organise the proverbial in a brewery point to generally low standards. And need to be called out.

Apologises if I've left something out. I'm sure someone will correct the record.

Nice post and all but it has nothing to do with the substance of what has been talked about on here; namely - Rutger Bregman, the 15 hour work week, open borders, whether ideals need to be practical, Green New Deal, MS13 & Border security. There's plenty of substantive issues for us all to discuss there EG without feeling obliged to focus in on the Bad Orange Man. I think the thread will be more pleasant and enjoyable and may last longer if we focus on the issues and provide opinions, facts and data related to the issues and try and steer away from Trump himself as much as possible.

Eminence Grise
06/03/2019, 1:58 PM
The thread is actually about Fox News. And it got derailed. But I agree: let's keep it on topic. It's only fair to the OP.

The Fly
06/03/2019, 7:25 PM
Thanks The Fly - you've ruined this! :)

I did apologise...twice. :o

We could change the thread title to The Political Philosophy (& Fox News) Thread.

mark12345
07/03/2019, 12:04 AM
Why don't you contribute when you are willing to do so in a constructive manner on the issues.

I couldn't have said it better myself Stu.

osarusan
07/03/2019, 6:27 AM
I couldn't have said it better myself Stu.
Can you provide some evidence to support your claim that 80,000 MS13 members have made their way into the USA
across the border?

Real ale Madrid
07/03/2019, 8:18 AM
I did apologise...twice. :o


Ah I was only joking!



We could change the thread title to The Political Philosophy (& Fox News) Thread.

Good idea actually - its actually an extension of the previous Trump thread because he is at the center of all this nonsense. No doubt the lack of substantiation of all the ridiculous claims posted here will see the thread shut anyway.

Can someone change the title to 'US Politics' or something generic like that?

mark12345
07/03/2019, 11:33 AM
I don't think it's fair to call Syrian, Afghan and Libyan refugees "economic migrants". I'm not in favour of completely open borders, but I think we have a moral obligation to help people whose lives have been destroyed by war, and I only wish other nations had been as generous as the Germans.

Finally, a voice of reason and intelligence (although as Stu said, I think the Germans have gone way overboard with their generosity).
Morally we should try to help peoples affected by war and starvation - this is true. But open borders in any country means you don't have a country but a 'neighbourhood' which any amount of people with any amount of bad intentions can pass through.
Just a couple of statistics from this morning (Fox And Friends) on American TV.
Some 76,000 peope have been apprehended trying to cross the southern border - in February alone.
Putting that into perspective - that's slightly more than a normal home game at Old Trafford.
And a little more perspective - 2542 (recalling this from a radio show interview the other day) of homicides in Mexico in February alone, and 26,000 in 2017 means people are trying to escape that country like never before.

And according to the testimony of the Secy of Homeland Security (Kirstjen Nielsen) yesterday, the US is on course to accept (whether they want them or not) 1 million illegal immigrants in 2019.
Does anyone think Ireland would 'accept' 100 K immigrants this year? And if they do, what would be the impact on the economy in Ireland?
And another statistic (from Nielsen) - 80 per cent of border crossers do not go through the ports of entry. Hence the need for a wall.
Oh and there was that recent massive Fentanyl bust (in reality, more deadly than any of the deadliest missiles on the planet) that seems to have been forgotten.

osarusan
07/03/2019, 12:22 PM
mark12345, do you have any evidence to support your claim that 80,000 MS13 members have made their way into the USA by sneaking across the border?

From my own googling, the figure floating about is 10,000 members in the country, which comes from a 2009 report by the FBI's National Gang Threat Assessment. There doesn't seem to be any more up-to-date statistics than that from the FBI at least.

Can you show us where/how you arrived at your figure of 80,000?

SkStu
07/03/2019, 12:57 PM
Good idea actually - its actually an extension of the previous Trump thread because he is at the center of all this nonsense. No doubt the lack of substantiation of all the ridiculous claims posted here will see the thread shut anyway.

Look, I’ll say it again. If we can keep Trump out of this and debate the often times ridiculous issues that are being raised by “both sides of the aisle” (there ain’t two!) we stand a pretty good chance of self policing the thread and keeping it active.

He’s not at the centre of it - the issues that are legitimately dividing people across the globe are at the centre of it. We should be able to respectfully and constructively debate these.

I agree with DaHamsta that claims should be backed up with sources or facts. Stated opinions I think we should be a lot more tolerant of as long as they aren’t belligerent or hate-speech.

I think I’ve made two claims on here that weren’t backed up with evidence.

1) USA and others co2 reductions
2) NI border security issues

Happy to provide sources on these if desired.

In the interests of holding each other to the same standard, I see a lot of unsubstantiated claims in EGs post about Trump that should be fully sourced or fully deleted. And I’d recommend that Mark deletes his claim about 80k MS13 and elimination of air travel as he’s been asked 3 times already and has not provided any source.

mark12345
07/03/2019, 1:19 PM
mark12345, do you have any evidence to support your claim that 80,000 MS13 members have made their way into the USA by sneaking across the border?

From my own googling, the figure floating about is 10,000 members in the country, which comes from a 2009 report by the FBI's National Gang Threat Assessment. There doesn't seem to be any more up-to-date statistics than that from the FBI at least.

Can you show us where/how you arrived at your figure of 80,000?

I believe I heard it on talk radio some time last fall. I don't have the time or energy to go digging it out, but I can give you a point of reference.
MS 13 are a gang of El Salvadorian origin.
Now I heard that either one third or two thirds of the population of El Salvador (I can't remember which figure is true but I'm sure it's easily attainalbe) lives in the United States.
So is it that much of a stretch to believe that there are 80,000 MS 13 gang members in the country?
That said, I can tell you I'm not lying to you - I did hear the figure of 80K mentioned.
It is said that many of them were brought to the border as unaccompanied minors, admitted to the country on humanitarian grounds, and then ended up in the gang, admission to which has progressed from rape, to rape and murder, to murder and mutiliation, as I understand it.
I know the Trump administration has been active over the last several months in trying to bring them to heel and the president himself has mentioned them in tweets.

On another note, the Democrats are calling the influx of illegal immigrants on the border 'a manufactured crisis'.
That means that all we are discussing here, illegal immigration in the hundreds of thousands, mountains of drugs on any given day, and the now deadly drug Fentanyl with the capacity to kill millions of Amercians, MS 13 gang memebers and terrorists who have been imbedded in the migrant caravans, are all 'manufactured'.
And then of course there are the hundreds of Americans killed each year by illegal immigrant drunk drivers and criminals. Maybe the Dems should tell the surviving family members that their departed sons and daughters
are 'manufactured'.

Ultimately...........we have all heard Donald Trump call Washington a swamp many times. Some people tend to take that with a grain of salt. But Trump has never been more right. I predict (hope I'm wrong, but I would be very surprised if I am) that the swamp will face its acid test in the coming weeks when they are forced to vote on the Emergency Declaration bill by the president (ie relative to building a wall on the border). What way will they vote? Well, shock of all shocks, the Dems will oppose it and, predictable as they always are, the anti-Democrats who are supposed to represent the interests of those who voted for them (otherwise known as the Republicans) will side with the Democrats against the president.

Eminence Grise
07/03/2019, 1:33 PM
Given that I never named Trump but you immediately knew to whom I referred, the evidentiary threshold seems somewhat lower than some posts here. Which assertion in particular have you not heard or seen reported by journalists before? Actually, you don't need to answer. We've had good engagement in other threads (books and reading especially) so let's acknowledge that our politics will never align, and drop it. This is my last post in the thread. To be honest, I'd suggest locking it and starting with a similar title.

mark12345
07/03/2019, 2:14 PM
Look, I’ll say it again. If we can keep Trump out of this and debate the often times ridiculous issues that are being raised by “both sides of the aisle” (there ain’t two!) we stand a pretty good chance of self policing the thread and keeping it active.

He’s not at the centre of it - the issues that are legitimately dividing people across the globe are at the centre of it. We should be able to respectfully and constructively debate these.

I agree with DaHamsta that claims should be backed up with sources or facts. Stated opinions I think we should be a lot more tolerant of as long as they aren’t belligerent or hate-speech.

I think I’ve made two claims on here that weren’t backed up with evidence.

1) USA and others co2 reductions
2) NI border security issues

Happy to provide sources on these if desired.

In the interests of holding each other to the same standard, I see a lot of unsubstantiated claims in EGs post about Trump that should be fully sourced or fully deleted. And I’d recommend that Mark deletes his claim about 80k MS13 and elimination of air travel as he’s been asked 3 times already and has not provided any source.

Since my name is mentioned here I probably should respond (admitting at the same time that we have strayed quite a bit of the original topic).
I hope I have addressed the MS 13 issue below in a reply to osarun.
As an aside, is there some significance to the number of gang members?
Someone (osarun I believe) said that his figures were from 2009. This is nine years later (or eight when I heard 80 K).
Think I said it before, but I listen to / watch about 23 hours of American political news and commentary each week - I suppose I should get a life.
How did I get to spend so much time on politics, a thought which I would have laughed at just a few years ago - witch hunts and demonstrable lies from the media (think Paul Manafort, the Parkland school shooting and its aftermath, and Brett Kavanaugh).
And the commentators I listen to are pretty reliable as far as I am concerned, notwithstanding the fact that I know all the TV networks have bills to pay and ratings to keep.

One last thing I would like to say to Stu. The following statement puts you head and shoulders above millions of others out there because you can actually see the forest for the trees:

"the issues that are legitimately dividing people across the globe are at the centre of it. We should be able to respectfully and constructively debate these."

dahamsta
07/03/2019, 2:32 PM
mark12345, provide sources for your claims or you will be suspended / banned from this forum, depending on your infraction history. You have 24 hours.

mark12345
07/03/2019, 2:56 PM
mark12345, provide sources for your claims or you will be suspended / banned from this forum, depending on your infraction history. You have 24 hours.

I have done Dahmsta, see above.

Dahamsta - Just a thought. You can tell me to go jump in a lake if you like, but hear me out for a second if you will.

I detect a real lack of trust among the posters on this topic. No one seems to believe anything anyone says anymore. It wasn't always like this but the world is a far more acrimonious place now and I suppose the folks on here are just a cameo of that.
We are all at each other's throats (that's no one's fault but our own as we have allowed ourselves to get sucked in by the forces out there which are trying to divide us, and I would think many on here would agree with this).
Put it this way, if the topic was football or rugby game, there would be minor or even major disagreement for a brief period, but eventually people would come back to their senses.
That doesn't happen when it comes to this topic.

And when the proverbial baby gets thrown out with the bathwater, I always try to revert to logic and truth. Truth is more elusive today than it ever has been, so we just have to inject logic and healthy debate in an effort to get to the truth.
Why is this important?
Well it's important to me, and I hope everyone else, because I would like us all to get to UNITY and unity is where the future of civilisation lies.
There is a reason why the major media outlets in America, and I would suspect Ireland, England and most of the western world seem to have forgotten how to spell the word, let alone use it
Because unity of decent, clear thinking people scares them for some reason.
Logic, truth, civility, unity.
Pass it on and we'll be far better off in the long run.

mark12345
07/03/2019, 3:22 PM
Dahamsta - Osarusan posts below that he googled the figure of 80,000 and he could only find 10,000.
Notably, all the top sites which are shown for this search are CNN, Vox, USA Today, Washington Post.
I don't know where you live Dahamsta but in America those outlets are all considered to be anti-Trump and true to form, they do question the figure.

My ongoing sources are Jeff Kuhner, radio host, Chris Plant, radio host, Rush Limbaugh, radio host, Larry Elder, radio host, -- Brett Baer, Laura Ingraham, Jesse Watters, Greg Guttfelt, Dan Bongino and Martha McCallum Fox TV analysts. And there are quite a few others which I can give you if you really need them.
Did I record the soundbyte when it said, sometime last year, that there were 80 K gang members. No I did not.

Real ale Madrid
07/03/2019, 5:08 PM
My ongoing sources are Jeff Kuhner, radio host, Chris Plant, radio host, Rush Limbaugh, radio host, Larry Elder, radio host, -- Brett Baer, Laura Ingraham, Jesse Watters, Greg Guttfelt, Dan Bongino and Martha McCallum

All you are short of is this guy

2776

SkStu
07/03/2019, 6:40 PM
https://theweek.com/articles/758360/rise-ms13

Decent and balanced article on these animals here and the only one that brings up a reference to 80,000 MS13 members (in Central America). Restates the 10,000 number that seems more accepted. Some more interesting numbers and data in this article: https://www.680news.com/2018/04/27/ap-fact-check-ms-13-gang-arrests-at-border-are-up-this-year/
As I said in an earlier post, even one of these thugs crossing the border and adding to the misery is one too many in my book.

Also, learned today about another similar gang called Barrio 18 With an estimated 30,000-50,000 members in the USA.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/18th_Street_gang

And there’s apparently 1.4m people in the states who are part of a total of 33,000 gangs. That’s insane!

Mark, my advice might be to retract your claim above and be more careful in the future. We all have a responsibility to be extra careful in the claims we make these days given the prevailing mood of society and the proliferation of fake news even in the mainstream media outlets. It will actually serve us well as a society.

On this site, as we can see from the above, there are two standards applied during these types of debates on this forum but it’s DaHams site so we play by his rules, authoritarian as it may seem.

I know that we can all misremember things that we hear or see (kind of the Mandela Effect) so chalk it down to that and hope that DaHamsta will be in a kind, forgiving state of mind tomorrow morning! ;)

mark12345
07/03/2019, 9:20 PM
https://theweek.com/articles/758360/rise-ms13

Decent and balanced article on these animals here and the only one that brings up a reference to 80,000 MS13 members (in Central America). Restates the 10,000 number that seems more accepted. Some more interesting numbers and data in this article: https://www.680news.com/2018/04/27/ap-fact-check-ms-13-gang-arrests-at-border-are-up-this-year/
As I said in an earlier post, even one of these thugs crossing the border and adding to the misery is one too many in my book.

Also, learned today about another similar gang called Barrio 18 With an estimated 30,000-50,000 members in the USA.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/18th_Street_gang

And there’s apparently 1.4m people in the states who are part of a total of 33,000 gangs. That’s insane!

Mark, my advice might be to retract your claim above and be more careful in the future. We all have a responsibility to be extra careful in the claims we make these days given the prevailing mood of society and the proliferation of fake news even in the mainstream media outlets. It will actually serve us well as a society.

On this site, as we can see from the above, there are two standards applied during these types of debates on this forum but it’s DaHams site so we play by his rules, authoritarian as it may seem.

I know that we can all misremember things that we hear or see (kind of the Mandela Effect) so chalk it down to that and hope that DaHamsta will be in a kind, forgiving state of mind tomorrow morning! ;)

Point taken. I will retract the number. I have no idea where or how to find it at this point. But I will try to source this stuff better in the future.

Eminence Grise
08/03/2019, 7:32 AM
Well, in the spirit of peace and reconciliation that has broken out, I'll accept that amidst this list (https://foot.ie/threads/241170-The-Fox-News-Thread?p=1993896&viewfull=1#post1993896)were some items that breached the Goldwater Rule (https://psychnews.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.pn.2016.9a13) - both in spirit and in that I'm not a psychiatrist.

And now, back to Fox.

dahamsta
08/03/2019, 11:42 AM
mark12345, the below is how you provide sources. The next time you make a claim on the current affairs forum, provide actual sources or your posts will be deleted, and you will be banned from this forum. Saying "I heard it" on X, Y or Z is absolutely not acceptable. Link sources, or don't make claims.

And, to be frank, the reason people argue with you, and don't believe a word you say, is because you sound and act like an ignorant, Trump-supporting / anti-vax / flat-earth / flouride-bad lunatic, citing and parroting "facts" without sources, some of which are borderline or actually racist, sectarian or just plain mean. I'm not saying that any of those are actually true, but that's what you sound like. Maybe you should consider that for a little while.



https://theweek.com/articles/758360/rise-ms13

Decent and balanced article on these animals here and the only one that brings up a reference to 80,000 MS13 members (in Central America). Restates the 10,000 number that seems more accepted. Some more interesting numbers and data in this article: https://www.680news.com/2018/04/27/ap-fact-check-ms-13-gang-arrests-at-border-are-up-this-year/
As I said in an earlier post, even one of these thugs crossing the border and adding to the misery is one too many in my book.

Also, learned today about another similar gang called Barrio 18 With an estimated 30,000-50,000 members in the USA.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/18th_Street_gang

And there’s apparently 1.4m people in the states who are part of a total of 33,000 gangs. That’s insane!

Mark, my advice might be to retract your claim above and be more careful in the future. We all have a responsibility to be extra careful in the claims we make these days given the prevailing mood of society and the proliferation of fake news even in the mainstream media outlets. It will actually serve us well as a society.

On this site, as we can see from the above, there are two standards applied during these types of debates on this forum but it’s DaHams site so we play by his rules, authoritarian as it may seem.

I know that we can all misremember things that we hear or see (kind of the Mandela Effect) so chalk it down to that and hope that DaHamsta will be in a kind, forgiving state of mind tomorrow morning! ;)

samhaydenjr
09/03/2019, 4:35 AM
https://theweek.com/articles/758360/rise-ms13

Decent and balanced article on these animals here and the only one that brings up a reference to 80,000 MS13 members (in Central America). Restates the 10,000 number that seems more accepted. Some more interesting numbers and data in this article: https://www.680news.com/2018/04/27/ap-fact-check-ms-13-gang-arrests-at-border-are-up-this-year/
As I said in an earlier post, even one of these thugs crossing the border and adding to the misery is one too many in my book.


Ha! Before I read that article I did a top-of-my-head calculation of the number of MS13 members who cross the border. I based it on the figure I cited earlier of 10,000 members, with most joining in the US. Based on that, I assumed that the number of MS13 members who crossed as members to be no more than 4000, and if we assume that's over a ten year period, that would mean 400 MS13 members crossing per year. Wild estimate, I thought. And then I go to that article and it says that the number of MS13 members apprehended in 2014 (the highest in recent years) was 437!

Yes, I know the ideal would be for that figure to be zero, same for the existence of MS13 members at all. But that's not realistic and from a public policy point of view this figure hardly justifies spending $21.6B (Dept of Homeland Security Figures - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_wall#Cost_estimates, I reckon it'll be closer to $50b, if it gets that far) on a wall born out of spite and hatred, especially as there are serious doubts, to say the least, about its effectiveness: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-border-wall-mexico-us-illegal-undocumented-immigrants-research-a8783721.html. And it certainly doesn't justify Trump's infamous campaign announcement speech.

Quick question to think about - what would be the effect on immigration if the US gave $25b directly to the poorest 2.5m families in Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador?

SkStu
09/03/2019, 1:23 PM
Sam,

The wall is not just to prevent MS13 members, right? It’s to prevent illegal immigration and as I said above funnel all immigration and asylum through legal ports of entry. It is one part of a solution to a very real problem. To say it is borne out of spite and hatred is lazy and is just parroting media anti-Trump nonsense.

Do you or someone you know own a home? Does that home have a fence or wall? What is the purpose of the fence/wall? Is it an instrument of spite and hatred? Is it to delineate and set out the property you own? Is it intended to keep people from trespassing on and potentially - even unintentionally - destroying your property? Does your wall or fence work 100%? Mine doesn’t but it’s a deterrent and with motion cameras, gates and alarm systems it works quite well. Do you feel that you have the right to decide who can come into your home and onto your property? Would you be willing to let people from a poorer neighbourhood just come onto your property to build a home there or hide out there? Would you not have been better to just take the money that you spent on your fence or wall and given it directly to the families in the poorer neighbourhoods?

samhaydenjr
10/03/2019, 2:15 AM
Sam,

The wall is not just to prevent MS13 members, right? It’s to prevent illegal immigration and as I said above funnel all immigration and asylum through legal ports of entry. It is one part of a solution to a very real problem. To say it is borne out of spite and hatred is lazy and is just parroting media anti-Trump nonsense.


Well duh... one of the problems with the wall is that it won't actually manage to do that. The point is, and this goes to the heart of the issue of this thread, MS13 have been presented by Trump and right-wing media as a major threat to US security without precedent as justification for this huge expenditure. Even on this thread, you had Mark12345 presenting a figure of 80,000 MS13 members in the US. He claimed that he heard it quoted on one of his news sources, which include Fox News and Right-wing Talk Radio but couldn't remember where. And you know what? I believe him. Based on what I see of Fox News, Conservative Radio and now, more insidiously, Spectrum Media properties, it's entirely probable that Mark12345 was watching Fox or listening to Talk Radio and somebody threw out a figure of 80,000 in the context of MS13 in the US in a discussion about the Southern Border, wasn't challenged and that's the figure he brought here, which we now know, based on figures both you and I presented, to be massively, massively overstated.

And why do they do this? To rile people up. Because most people are reasonable and if you tell them that illegal border crossings have dropped by 80% since the year 2000, that the number of MS13 members crossing each year numbers in the hundreds and that 99% of people crossing the border are simply seeking a better life for their families and don't go on to commit crimes, then they don't see a need for draconian, extreme and expensive border measures, even though they support sensible border regulation and enforcement.

But there are certain groups of people who are not happy with that. No matter the cost, no matter the futility of achieving their claimed objectives, no matter the pointless misery they cause to people, out of spite and hatred (I'm not just parroting that) they throw out misleading information and figures to get otherwise semi-reasonable people riled up. Sarah Huckabee-Sanders got caught out doing this, ironically enough on Fox News, when she threw out the number of terror suspects stopped by border services in the context of The Wall, only for Chris Wallace to point out that none of these terror suspect were stopped at the Southern Border. But of course the most infamous example of this use of misleading rhetoric is the speech that kicked this whole thing off:

"When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best... They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with [them]. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."

If that's not born of spite and hatred, then I don't know what is.

SkStu
10/03/2019, 4:47 AM
I think it’s poor form to ignore two-thirds of my post and then spend half your response addressing something that I never raised.

Well intentioned or not, if you want to make a better start for yourself than you should start by following the law and not immigrating illegally. If a wall along the southern border helps with that then that’s a good thing surely?

Do you think people should follow legal processes to start a new life in a better country? Do you support people from Central America and Mexico crossing the border into the USA illegally?

I’m asking you some really simple questions in these last couple of replies. Continue to ignore them and I’ll write you off as disingenuous on this topic.

mark12345
10/03/2019, 11:40 AM
Well duh... one of the problems with the wall is that it won't actually manage to do that. The point is, and this goes to the heart of the issue of this thread, MS13 have been presented by Trump and right-wing media as a major threat to US security without precedent as justification for this huge expenditure. Even on this thread, you had Mark12345 presenting a figure of 80,000 MS13 members in the US. He claimed that he heard it quoted on one of his news sources, which include Fox News and Right-wing Talk Radio but couldn't remember where. And you know what? I believe him. Based on what I see of Fox News, Conservative Radio and now, more insidiously, Spectrum Media properties, it's entirely probable that Mark12345 was watching Fox or listening to Talk Radio and somebody threw out a figure of 80,000 in the context of MS13 in the US in a discussion about the Southern Border, wasn't challenged and that's the figure he brought here, which we now know, based on figures both you and I presented, to be massively, massively overstated.

And why do they do this? To rile people up. Because most people are reasonable and if you tell them that illegal border crossings have dropped by 80% since the year 2000, that the number of MS13 members crossing each year numbers in the hundreds and that 99% of people crossing the border are simply seeking a better life for their families and don't go on to commit crimes, then they don't see a need for draconian, extreme and expensive border measures, even though they support sensible border regulation and enforcement.

But there are certain groups of people who are not happy with that. No matter the cost, no matter the futility of achieving their claimed objectives, no matter the pointless misery they cause to people, out of spite and hatred (I'm not just parroting that) they throw out misleading information and figures to get otherwise semi-reasonable people riled up. Sarah Huckabee-Sanders got caught out doing this, ironically enough on Fox News, when she threw out the number of terror suspects stopped by border services in the context of The Wall, only for Chris Wallace to point out that none of these terror suspect were stopped at the Southern Border. But of course the most infamous example of this use of misleading rhetoric is the speech that kicked this whole thing off:

"When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best... They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with [them]. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."

If that's not born of spite and hatred, then I don't know what is.


Sam, listen to this woman. She is a spokesperson for the customs officers in Arizona (it's an interesting video which speaks about border guards facing massive numbers of immigrants which they just cannot handle, and being exposed to disease etc. But if you don't have the time, listen from 13.59 to the end). She says that the media and celebrities portray the border patrol as monsters, but the reality is that America goes above and beyond in the way it treats immigrants crossing the border, many of whom are hardened criminals.


https://youtu.be/IW3ma-IAe1w?t=6

Source - Judicial Watch

http://www.judicialwatch.org/latest-videos/

And......almost 30,000 murders in 2017 in Mexico, see source below.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/mexico-record-homicide-rate-1.4497466

and it's not getting any better with 2500 plus reported in February 2019 alone. The woman in the Judicial Watch video talks about the crime rate going up in Tijuana because of the influx of migrants from the caravans. So in essence there is a real perfect storm of problems on America's southern border.

mark12345
10/03/2019, 11:53 AM
Well duh... one of the problems with the wall is that it won't actually manage to do that. The point is, and this goes to the heart of the issue of this thread, MS13 have been presented by Trump and right-wing media as a major threat to US security without precedent as justification for this huge expenditure. Even on this thread, you had Mark12345 presenting a figure of 80,000 MS13 members in the US. He claimed that he heard it quoted on one of his news sources, which include Fox News and Right-wing Talk Radio but couldn't remember where. And you know what? I believe him. Based on what I see of Fox News, Conservative Radio and now, more insidiously, Spectrum Media properties, it's entirely probable that Mark12345 was watching Fox or listening to Talk Radio and somebody threw out a figure of 80,000 in the context of MS13 in the US in a discussion about the Southern Border, wasn't challenged and that's the figure he brought here, which we now know, based on figures both you and I presented, to be massively, massively overstated.

And why do they do this? To rile people up. Because most people are reasonable and if you tell them that illegal border crossings have dropped by 80% since the year 2000, that the number of MS13 members crossing each year numbers in the hundreds and that 99% of people crossing the border are simply seeking a better life for their families and don't go on to commit crimes, then they don't see a need for draconian, extreme and expensive border measures, even though they support sensible border regulation and enforcement.

But there are certain groups of people who are not happy with that. No matter the cost, no matter the futility of achieving their claimed objectives, no matter the pointless misery they cause to people, out of spite and hatred (I'm not just parroting that) they throw out misleading information and figures to get otherwise semi-reasonable people riled up. Sarah Huckabee-Sanders got caught out doing this, ironically enough on Fox News, when she threw out the number of terror suspects stopped by border services in the context of The Wall, only for Chris Wallace to point out that none of these terror suspect were stopped at the Southern Border. But of course the most infamous example of this use of misleading rhetoric is the speech that kicked this whole thing off:

"When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best... They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with [them]. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."

If that's not born of spite and hatred, then I don't know what is.

Sam, is it possible that we're being fed a media narrative which simply is not true?

Here's something from a journalist who went to the very source. He says that the media are misrepresenting the narrative as they portray the migrants to be mostly women and children when in point of fact they are 90 -95% young men.
Interesting

https://youtu.be/lfP2UJP0hJE

ifk101
10/03/2019, 12:33 PM
Sam, is it possible that we're being fed a media narrative which simply is not true?

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/judicial-watch/

mark12345
10/03/2019, 1:08 PM
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/judicial-watch/

And why should anyone believe Media Bias Fact Check?
What are the political leanings of the people who run / fund that website?

I could point you in the direction of Liberty News Now and an article entitled "Judicial Watch Instrumental In Firing Of Corrupt FBI Agent McCabe"
Not just any run of the mill website if they can wield that amount of power, one would have to say.

But then I'm sure you could come up with another website to counteract that and we could go on with this ad nauseum.

So I've learned a lot this week.
You've got to give us sources I was told. You cannot just blurb out things without giving sources or you will be banned.
So I go to the trouble of sourcing information and then I'm told it is not to be believed.
To be fair it is people's perogative to believe and not to believe what they want.

Part of the problem in this particular situation, I believe, is that I live 3000 miles away from most of the posters on this site (I think that is the case anyway?).
I turn on my TV or radio every day and am bombarded with this type of news or propaganda which it is in many cases.
I tend to forget that many of the people I am corresponding with do not have the same level of saturation coverage of this topic and therefore they need to search for it from other sources.

All I can say is that we truly live in an age where information is the biggest weapon of all.

Real ale Madrid
10/03/2019, 1:35 PM
Sam, listen to this woman. She is a spokesperson for the customs officers in Arizona (it's an interesting video which speaks about border guards facing massive numbers of immigrants which they just cannot handle, and being exposed to disease etc. But if you don't have the time, listen from 13.59 to the end). She says that the media and celebrities portray the border patrol as monsters, but the reality is that America goes above and beyond in the way it treats immigrants crossing the border, many of whom are hardened criminals.


https://youtu.be/IW3ma-IAe1w?t=6

Source - Judicial Watch

http://www.judicialwatch.org/latest-videos/

And......almost 30,000 murders in 2017 in Mexico, see source below.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/mexico-record-homicide-rate-1.4497466

and it's not getting any better with 2500 plus reported in February 2019 alone. The woman in the Judicial Watch video talks about the crime rate going up in Tijuana because of the influx of migrants from the caravans. So in essence there is a real perfect storm of problems on America's southern border.

What does the murder rate in Mexico have to do with immigration? It's conjecture mentioning the murder rate there.

Among communities in the USA with high / low populations of immigrants there is little change in crime rates. One example of such a study is the below by the CATO Institute

https://www.cato.org/publications/immigration-research-policy-brief/criminal-immigrants-texas-illegal-immigrant


The vast majority of research finds that immigrants do not increase local crime rates and that they are less likely to cause crime and less likely to be incarcerated than their native-born peers.3 There is less research on illegal immigrant criminality, but what research there is shows that illegal immigrants have lower incarceration rates nationwide and in the state of Texas relative to native-born Americans, although they have the same rates of re-arrest in Los Angeles County.4 Consistent with those findings, immigration enforcement programs targeting illegal immigrant criminals have no effect on local crime rates, which indicates that they are about as crime prone as other residents.5

No one should be saying that they should be welcoming in illegal immigrants but building a wall according to all known research will do little to help make America Safer.

Keep harping on about it but if you invested this 25 billion on say , gun legislation then you might say half the current gun deaths (approaching 40,000 per year) . If you did manage to reduce it by half then there would be 200,000 Americans alive in 10 years time that will otherwise die.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2018/12/18/us/gun-deaths.amp.html

SkStu
10/03/2019, 1:49 PM
I agree Mark. It’s a dangerous game to play ifk. On the left side of the spectrum on that site are a load of familiar names to the posters on this site - CNN, HuffPo and others.

On JW, the site says to take the veracity of their (and by extension those left wing sources) articles on a case by case basis. The best thing we can do on here is post articles that rebut the claims or data in a particular source. It allows people to have both sides presented and then, at least we can make our own minds up. I don’t think posting a link like the above furthers any type of decent debate.


No one should be saying that they should be welcoming in illegal immigrants but building a wall according to all known research will do little to help make America Safer.

According to those who are responsible for patrolling the border, a wall is desperately needed to prevent the flow of illegal immigrants and drugs across the border. This is Carla Provost, Border Patrol Chief.

https://www.upi.com/Border-Patrol-chief-urges-senators-to-support-border-wall/6061544661131/

https://thehill.com/hilltv/rising/401535-full-interview-trumps-new-border-patrol-chief-carla-provost-talks-support-for

Could you share some of the research you are referring to?

I am glad to read that you don’t believe in illegal immigration. I was worried that no one on this site was going to actually answer that question which just seems obvious to me.

mark12345
10/03/2019, 3:17 PM
According to those who are responsible for patrolling the border, a wall is desperately needed to prevent the flow of illegal immigrants and drugs across the border. This is Carla Provost, Border Patrol Chief.

https://www.upi.com/Border-Patrol-chief-urges-senators-to-support-border-wall/6061544661131/

https://thehill.com/hilltv/rising/401535-full-interview-trumps-new-border-patrol-chief-carla-provost-talks-support-for

Could you share some of the research you are referring to?

I am glad to read that you don’t believe in illegal immigration. I was worried that no one on this site was going to actually answer that question which just seems obvious to me.


Thanks Stu. As I said before you are a clear thinker.
No coincidence I suppose that the pair of us (as far as I can see anyway, but there may be exceptions?) are closer than anyone else to the 25 hours a day / 8 days a week American newsfeeds on our TV's.
I think there are a lot of very knowledgable posters on the Current Affairs topics on this site, and I have learned quite a bit from them regarding things at home in Ireland and in England.
I just wish there was the same level of acceptance of the facts / stories we present from our side of the world.


What does the murder rate in Mexico have to do with immigration? It's conjecture mentioning the murder rate there.

Among communities in the USA with high / low populations of immigrants there is little change in crime rates. One example of such a study is the below by the CATO Institute

https://www.cato.org/publications/immigration-research-policy-brief/criminal-immigrants-texas-illegal-immigrant



No one should be saying that they should be welcoming in illegal immigrants but building a wall according to all known research will do little to help make America Safer.

Keep harping on about it but if you invested this 25 billion on say , gun legislation then you might say half the current gun deaths (approaching 40,000 per year) . If you did manage to reduce it by half then there would be 200,000 Americans alive in 10 years time that will otherwise die.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2018/12/18/us/gun-deaths.amp.html

I think and hope that we all (myself included - believe me I am trying) turn over a new leaf in relation to the tone of our posts.
That said if I can make a few brief comments regarding your post here.
In response to your questions, my reasoning is as follows:

"What does the murder rate in Mexico have to do with immigration?" It has everything to do with immigration as in, if you and I were a couple of young kids in Mexico and all we saw in our town was carnage, mutiation and intimidation, would we not want to get out of town as quick as we could? I think that would be only natural to want to do that, and I would think that millions of Mexicans feel the same way? That is why we see so many trying to go north to America (and from what I am seeing now online, the people who were for so long under the thumbs of the cartel are arming themselves into militias and fighting back - that is mosty in southern Mexico). Anyway, I think you would agree that Mexico is a corrupt, lawless country at present which is run by the drug cartels? This can only translate into thousands wanting to flee north to America, and they are doing that (76.000 apprehended on the border in the month of February alone).
And you might want to balance that CATO Instiute story with a look into the city of Chicago, it's off the charts annual murder rate and the number of shootings in that city (all with illegal guns) which are linked in many cases to the flow of drugs from Mexico. I would be happy to debate you on your perception of gun control in America. Some day, but not today.

One last thing before I go. I mentioned in a post the other day that a truck crossing the southern border, a month or so ago, was stopped by the border patrol.
That truck contained enough Fentanyl to kill 60 million Americans. Does that concern you in any way?

ifk101
10/03/2019, 4:17 PM
And why should anyone believe Media Bias Fact Check?
What are the political leanings of the people who run / fund that website?

You said


Sam, is it possible that we're being fed a media narrative which simply is not true?

mark12345
10/03/2019, 4:36 PM
You said

All true.
It is more than possible that we're being fed an untrue narrative.
Did you happen to find out anything new about Media Bias Fact Check?
Let me know so I can try to refute your findings, and we can go on like this forever.

What has happened to us? 15 - 20 years ago you took the news on your TV as gospel.
Now no one knows what to believe. Seems like we are puppets on the strings of the media.
Like Stu says, it's a slippery slope.