Scotland V Republic of Ireland - Friday, 14th November 2014 - Euro 2016 Qualifier

[paul_oshea]

To answer Paul's comment, Martin O'Neill said in the Indo that it's not a bad injury and would be no problem if he had another week. So, no need for a conspiracy theory if he doesn't play.

But, I think any of us who have played have played with severe strains and maybe even minor tears. Personally I have never torn a hamstring (I have matchstick legs so don't really have any!) but I have torn ankle ligaments. I reckon a tear is one thing but in the old days international players would play through a strain. These days with players worth so much and with clubs holding power I think an international player just can't risk upsetting his club by playing through a strain.

I think that's all it is.

Ya but it seems to be a consistent injury that he can forego for Ireland but not his club. Its not a conspiracy I am just stating fact. He obviously has some underlying issue or some fatigue issue and "its" prioritised for certain games. You can't just play two games like that in a row and only a few weeks previously take an international break off and return for your club.

I imagine in bygone years they just played regardless. And I am not sure this longevity thing and managing is all its cracked up to be, diet and health yes but not these strains really.

I agree with your point as a whole and this is what I am getting at, I wasn't suggesting any conspiracy.

I do however feel that the Doctors have to go by exactly what they see rather than what they might believe or experience will tell them, especially in this day and age, insurance and managing clubs and expectations etc.

[ArdeeBhoy]

To De Lorean

You'd like to think so...
:wink:

[Mr_Parker]

.....

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B2UY3xcCUAEgDHI.jpg:large

[paul_oshea]

I am a bit worried about that midfield lasting a full 90. Who can we then bring in to replace them? None of them fully match fit.

[Stuttgart88]

Ya but it seems to be a consistent injury that he can forego for Ireland but not his club. Its not a conspiracy I am just stating fact. He obviously has some underlying issue or some fatigue issue and "its" prioritised for certain games. You can't just play two games like that in a row and only a few weeks previously take an international break off and return for your club.

I imagine in bygone years they just played regardless. And I am not sure this longevity thing and managing is all its cracked up to be, diet and health yes but not these strains really.

I agree with your point as a whole and this is what I am getting at, I wasn't suggesting any conspiracy.

I do however feel that the Doctors have to go by exactly what they see rather than what they might believe or experience will tell them, especially in this day and age, insurance and managing clubs and expectations etc.I wasn't suggesting you thought it was a full on "martians shot JFK conspiracy" but I thought there was a hint of scepticism / dissatisfaction in your post.

In this instance he visibly pulled up on Sunday and missed two days training. I suspect the degree of injury that keeps a player out of his international team these days is less than in the past, but I think O'Neill would have had no hesitation to play him if he was in good nick. It's a shame but I think there is no need for scepticism. The balance of power is with the clubs.

We'll win anyway.

[Stuttgart88]

O'Neill seems set in his ways with formation and style of playing. Most likely looking at Quinn and Gibson in midfield.But O'Neill's set ways to date have been to play 3 in midfield and one orthodox forward. 442 would be the departure.

[paul_oshea]

I dont share anyones enthusiasm for a win, least of all now, missing 3 regular starters. We are fine as MON says when we can play with our first 11, and we always need that - yes Germany i know - but its always what mon harps back to.

[Stuttgart88]

I think Scotland can be got at out wide. But I was showing a bit of bravado there. My head has me worried about their front two, even though neither is in the unplayable category like Ibrahimovic (who we contained once) or Ronaldo.

Key is to be competitive in midfield.

[TrapAPony]

I think Scotland are being overhyped tbh. With a defence of Whittaker, Martin, Hanley/Greer & Mulgrew/Robertson, they are no world beaters at the back. We can definitely trouble them and I expect us to score. Keep Naismith & Fletcher out of the game then they won't produce much.

[Duggie]

I think Scotland are being overhyped tbh. With a defence of Whittaker, Martin, Hanley/Greer & Mulgrew/Robertson, they are no world beaters at the back. We can definitely trouble them and I expect us to score. Keep Naismith & Fletcher out of the game then they won't produce much.

agreed, there a decent side now no doubt but nothing we should be afraid of even with the injuries. Fletcher and Naismith i think have a combined total of 5 international goals, hardly prolific. I'd love to see someone upfront with Keane, and i think we will defo sore goals. with a 5 man midfield i'm not so sure. we haven't the goal scoring midfielders to carry that off.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

It is an Irish city. There can't be any doubt about that unless you're the most blinkered knuckle dragging unionist. Jurisdictionly speaking that's anither story.

Why would you engage with such a person TOWK?

I think it is an Irish city. The other person thinks it is a Northern Irish city because they are two different countries apparently. I'm probably biased because of my background and he's probably biased because of his background.

Why have so many posts been removed?

[Charlie Darwin]

The other person thinks it is a Northern Irish city because they are two different countries apparently.
I hope you pointed out that Northern Ireland isn't a country. That one always goes down well.

[Stuttgart88]

Weather forecast for match time in Glasgow is decent. Not much of a wind and rain forecast for morning and afternoon will have passed. 8 degrees, which is about 8 more than it was in 1987.

[Charlie Darwin]

I thought we'd stuff them 2-0 with McCarthy but now I've upgraded my prediction to 3-0. Maybe 3-1.

[ArdeeBhoy]

I hope you pointed out that Northern Ireland isn't a country. That one always goes down well.

Except that's been the case for nearly a century, so its newsworthiness has faded somewhat!

[Fixer82]

I thought we'd stuff them 2-0 with McCarthy but now I've upgraded my prediction to 3-0. Maybe 3-1.

ha very good.
I'm not worried one bit with Gibson or Hendrick taking Macca's place

[BonnieShels]

This will be a fascinating team announcement.

What time is it at?


We'll win anyway.


I think Scotland are being overhyped tbh. With a defence of Whittaker, Martin, Hanley/Greer & Mulgrew/Robertson, they are no world beaters at the back. We can definitely trouble them and I expect us to score. Keep Naismith & Fletcher out of the game then they won't produce much.

Finally some positivity!!!


I think it is an Irish city. The other person thinks it is a Northern Irish city because they are two different countries apparently. I'm probably biased because of my background and he's probably biased because of his background.

Well, biased or not. Seems like an Orse. Unionism is a bizarre thing altogether, and it seems the relative ability to accept Irishness see,s to do with social class and/or education.

That's another days work and discussion anyway.


Why have so many posts been removed?

We can't talk about a certain incident. And quite rightly. This is not YBIG.


Except that's been the case for nearly a century, so its newsworthiness has faded somewhat!

Hmmm...

I think you'll find it hasn't been a "country" for about 4-5 billion years.

[geysir]

We can't talk about a certain incident. And quite rightly. This is not YBIG.
But I see you tried to talk about it, more times than Molly Bloom said yes.

[BonnieShels]

Oh yeah? It's all a ruse. I'm such a gossip monger.

[SwanVsDalton]

It's being widely reported, so can we talk about it?

This isn't YBIG, and I appreciate the position Tets is in, but, you know, it is a talking point.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Would be surprised if it was down to Tets?

[tetsujin1979]

It was down to me. The thread is locked, the FAI have issued a statement, and that;s all there is to it. I've no interest in pages of "my mate knows a driver, who was passing the hotel when he saw...." or posts along those lines
When there's any new information I'll reopen the thread, but for now I'm letting it die.

[swinfordfc]

I hope we beat these Scots tomorrow night - i never been so pi**ed off with the crap on sky sports all week - McQueen, and then the going on with some of our players born else where - the english want to look at they cricket and rugby team!

This is war tomorrow night - i would love to be there!

[DannyInvincible]

I think we can do serious damage to Scotland on the wings with McGeady and McClean running at them. Hutton is out, as is Bardsley. Is Bardsley usually a starter? He'd surely be one of their stronger full-backs.


Ya but it seems to be a consistent injury that he can forego for Ireland but not his club. Its not a conspiracy I am just stating fact. He obviously has some underlying issue or some fatigue issue and "its" prioritised for certain games. You can't just play two games like that in a row and only a few weeks previously take an international break off and return for your club.

He was assessed by the FAI doctor. It was the doctor who sent him home after two scans this week. It wasn't a decision made by James or his club. Those are the more pertinent facts. If we think it is a problem that wouldn't keep him out of an Everton game, why is it that Everton have that power to play him, whereas the FAI are hesitant and might feel somewhat restricted? What would be restricting them?


The balance of power is with the clubs.

I agree with you - it makes sense - but why do you think that is and what do you think might have happened had O'Neill decided to play McCarthy (possibly even causing an exacerbation of the problem)? What repercussions might it have had for Ireland? It does seem that certain problems/fatigue through which a player might be able to play for his club are/is more likely to keep him out of an international game. The fitness threshold, if you could call it that, appears to be higher for international football. Do associations fear possible legal repercussions, do you think?

There is a legal relationship between player and his club, that is not there between player and his association. Are associations reluctant to potentially threaten or interfere with the player's fulfillment of his contractual club duties for fear of provoking legal action (i.e. clubs suing for damages due to loss incurred by virtue of a player getting injured whilst on international duty)? Murmurs of clubs potentially suing associations often do the rounds in the media when a big player from a big club picks up a serious knock whilst on international duty. Does that play on the minds of those working on behalf of associations when dealing with players who aren't 100 per cent fit? Are they reluctant to push clubs too far to a point where we might actually arrive at a scenario where clubs will hold such sway that they'll simply refuse to comply with any request by associations or any statutory duty on the part of FIFA/UEFA to release players for international fixtures at all?

I'm just speculating or theorising really as to why the balance of power is in favour of clubs, but is the above a reasonable theory or can you offer a more persuasive explanation? Is possible legal action a realistic concern for associations or even a viable option for clubs in the present climate?

[Kingdom]

Parklife.

[ArdeeBhoy]

If you don't know now, look at the numerous examples all round Europe after every international break...
Largely based on 'co-operation', but massively weighted in favour of the clubs.

[DannyInvincible]

I think it is an Irish city. The other person thinks it is a Northern Irish city because they are two different countries apparently. I'm probably biased because of my background and he's probably biased because of his background.

No, no. For once, you are not demonstrating bias; you are wholeheartedly correct! :p

[DannyInvincible]

If you don't know now, look at the numerous examples all round Europe after every international break...
Largely based on 'co-operation', but massively weighted in favour of the clubs.

Why though? Why do associations feel so restricted by a need to co-operate with club's wishes? What do you suspect would happen if they pushed it? Is the fear that clubs en masse would eventually refuse to release players down the line to associations generally deemed untrustworthy and inconsiderate?

[geysir]

If you don't know now, look at the numerous examples all round Europe after every international break...
Largely based on 'co-operation', but massively weighted in favour of the clubs.
The power has always been with the clubs, you'd be deluded if you ever thought it was different. When a player gets injured with his club we don't bat an eye, the player becomes unavailable, it's an accepted event. We don't say, don't play him in a game before our game just in case he picks up an injury'. The balance has always been with the club.
There are some mandatory regulations to observe about release and injuries but for the most part, unless it is a Finals tournament or some really crucial game, an intl manager would be low standard if he fcked up a player's club career due to reckless risk taking for a qual game. A pig headed manager like Hodgson was rightly taken to task by club managers over his decisions re injury susceptible players.
The desired situation is not that intl duty takes precedence over the club, or vice versa but that there's respect and cooperation from both sides of that equation in regard to the player's duties to both.

[Closed Account]

Why though? Why do associations feel so restricted by a need to co-operate with club's wishes? What do you suspect would happen if they pushed it? Is the fear that clubs en masse would eventually refuse to release players down the line to associations generally deemed untrustworthy and inconsiderate?
It's an interesting one. I mentioned before that I think it's up to a manager to manage a situation like this. I remember reading a quote from O'Neill around the Germany game where he said he would speak to Martinez before anyone else as he had experience of being a club manager and could see the possible conflicts. My impression was that O'Neill wasn't going to rock the boat so early in his international management career, he could use the 'Platini' leverage later on when he needs it.

If an international manager wants to force their hand, all the rules are in their favour. There is even CPP{club protection program} that will cover players wages should they incur injury on international duty. It probably boils to player/manager/manager relations and probably more nuanced than we probably know. The difference in McCarthy v Whelan cases during the week were interesting. Whelan showed a lot of determination during the week despite a broken leg but it probably has more to do with his relationship with Hughes/Stoke than it does with the severity of injury.

[DannyInvincible]

A pig headed manager like Hodgson was rightly taken to task by club managers over his decisions re injury susceptible players.

What might cause a change in Hodgon's stripes though? A surge of good will upon a sudden realisation or would it be a fear of further damaging his reputation and future employability? If he didn't care too much for his reputation, why would it be in his best interests to co-operate by playing weakened sides?

[Charlie Darwin]

With regard to Whelan, I wouldn't be surprised if O'Neill and Hughes made a private arrangement to allow him to come in and try and prove his fitness, but that he'd be sent home unless something extreme happened.

[ArdeeBhoy]

It's obvious, they have to keep the clubs sweet, end of. The clubs have more power and money, including legal force, should that be required.

[Closed Account]

It's obvious, they have to keep the clubs sweet, end of. The clubs have more power and money, including legal force, should that be required.
What legal force do the clubs have? Honest question.

http://www.lawinsport.com/blog/squire-patton-boggs/item/your-guide-to-fifa-s-club-protection-programme

[ArdeeBhoy]

Unsure exactly, but they probably have better lawyers as usually get involved with more litigation and knowledge of player contracts?

[Closed Account]

Unsure exactly, but they probably have better lawyers as usually get involved with more litigation and knowledge of player contracts?

Agreed, it'd be akin to a Grisham novel if a club v country row broke out. Country with no money but the moral high ground(played by McConaghey) v the despicable oil rich club only interested in the bottom line. (played by Shooter McGavin)

[ArdeeBhoy]

Ha ha, nice analogy.

[DannyInvincible]

It does seem obvious, but almost to the point of it being an accepted cliché without really knowing why. I was just wondering if the power relationship was influenced by legal/statutory obligations rather than simple good will. I'll get a read of that link, joe, when I get a chance.

[shakermaker1982]

Did anybody listen to Second Captains this week? When they stopped talking about a hotel incident for the first 25 minutes they had Emmet Malone on and he was suggesting that a colleague (was it from the BBC?) thought McCarthy got cold feet about facing Scotland in their back yard because his family was getting grief. Sounds a load of BS to be honest.

At the end of the day it's down to the player. Only he himself knows his body. No player in modern football plays at 100% every week, everybody gets a niggle here and there. Whelan to his credit tried and obviously knew his leg wasn't 'right'. McCarthy has had issues with the hamstring in the past and will know himself if he can make 90 minutes or not at full pelt.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Keane asked if he feels his position in the team is threatened after Long & Walters scored at the weekend.

"Listen. Shane & Jon are great players. Daryl & David are in great form too. We have a great group here and whoever comes in will do a job. It's up to the manager and I'm sure he will pick the team he feels is best suited to taking the three points. I'll be ready to do a job if I'm called."

What he actually said.

"I scored on Sunday as well."

https://twitter.com/McDonnellDan/status/532966251451392000

[Closed Account]

What he actually said.

"I scored on Sunday as well."

https://twitter.com/McDonnellDan/status/532966251451392000
It was a good comeback alright. Shows his brain is as sharp as ever.

He went on to say

“It is important for every player and every striker to score goals. It is important that they are scoring at club level as it gives them confidence coming into the game. Scoring goals when you are a striker no matter where you are, you get that exciting feeling.

“The most important thing for me is winning the game, and getting the three points, no matter who scores. We know exactly what we have to do and the job we have to do. These are the games that players want to be involved in. It is certainly exciting.”

[Olé Olé]

What about Steven Fletcher's goalscoring record for Scotland. 1 in 17. 'Sheazy' doesn't need to be quaking in his boots!

Ross McCormack fares somewhat better- 2 in 11.

Where will goals come from this evening? Hendrick, McGeady, Naismith. 2-1 to the boys in green.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

What about Steven Fletcher's goalscoring record for Scotland. 1 in 17. 'Sheazy' doesn't need to be quaking in his boots!

Ross McCormack fares somewhat better- 2 in 11.

Where will goals come from this evening? Hendrick, McGeady, Naismith. 2-1 to the boys in green.

And people whine about Long's competitive goalscoring record when the only competitive game he has started was against Slovakia.

There is enough evidence to take from his goalscoring record in friendlies that he would have a lot more goals by now if he was given a chance to start on any kind of continuous basis.

[Charlie Darwin]

What has Long got to do with Steven Fletcher's goalscoring record? Olé Olé made the point that Scotland don't have an awful lot of goals in the team's history. It's a good point - it doesn't mean they won't score one or more tonight, but it's a valid point. And Long has started more than one competitive game.

[Closed Account]

James Morrison injured so Mulgrew starts.

Otherwise as expected

Marshall, Whittaker, R.Martin, Hanley,
Robertson, Maloney, Mulgrew, Brown (c), S.Fletcher,
Naismith, Anya

[Closed Account]

Ireland XI: Forde, Coleman,
O'Shea, Keogh, Ward, McGeady, Hendrick, Gibson,
McClean, Long, Walters

[Serb]

Keane is on the bench for this one. Can't remember the last time Robbie started on the bench. Starting team:

1 David Forde (G)

2 Seamus Coleman
4 John O'Shea (C)
22 Richard Keogh
3 Stephen Ward

7 Aiden McGeady
8 Jeff Hendrick
14 Darron Gibson
11 James McClean

9 Shane Long
19 Jon Walters

[geysir]

Attack minded from O'Neill,
does that mean McGeady plays in the centre?

[Colbert Report]

I've got a good feeling about this one and if Stephen Ward wasn't starting at left-back I'd tip us for a win. We'll definitely concede at least one goal with Ward in the starting line up, probably two. He is god awful. We haven't had a good left back in many years now. Whatever became of Greg Cunningham, the young left back who once played for Manchester City? He looked like he was ready to make the breakthrough but then got injured and I never heard from him again.

Ballsy move leaving Keane on the bench. Long and Walters are in great form though and Scotland's centre-back pairing don't look like world beaters.

[Colbert Report]

Attack minded from O'Neill,
does that mean McGeady plays in the centre?

Of course not. Hendrick and Gibson in the centre, McGeady and McClean on the wings.