Champions League 2014/5

[OwlsFan]

Qualifying Round 2
Tuesday, July 15, first leg

KR (Iceland) - Celtic (Scotland) 0-1 (halftime: 0-0)
Cliftonville (Northern Ireland) - Debrecen (Hungary) 0-0 (halftime: 0-0)
Dinamo Zagreb (Croatia) - Zalgiris Vilnius (Lithuania) 2-0 (halftime: 0-0)
Partizan Belgrade (Serbia) - HB (Faroe Islands) 3-0 (halftime: 1-0)
Sparta Prague (Czech Republic) - FC Levadia Tallinn (Estonia) 7-0 (halftime: 3-0)
FC Santa Coloma (Andorra) - Maccabi Tel Aviv (Israel) 0-1 (halftime: 0-0)
Rabotnicki Skopje (FYR Macedonia) - HJK Helsinki (Finland) 0-0 (halftime: 0-0)
Zrinjski (Bosnia & Herzegovina) - Maribor (Slovenia) 0-0 (halftime: 0-0)
BATE Borisov (Belarus) - Skenderbeu (Albania) 0-0 (halftime: 0-0)
Sheriff Tiraspol (Moldova) - Sutjeska Niksic (Montenegro) 2-0 (halftime: 0-0)
Slovan Bratislava (Slovakia) - The New Saints (Wales) 1-0 (halftime: 0-0)
Valletta FC (Malta) - Qarabag Agdam (Azerbaijan) 0-1 (halftime: 0-1)

Celtic win (saw the tail end of the game) and Cliftonville draw at home. As least the latter didn't concede so a score draw will do them away from home. The New Saints still in with a chance. Other that Zagreb, Prague, Maccabi, Maribor and Bratislava, I wouldn't know the rest.

Best of luck for Pats against Legia Warsaw.

[nigel-harps1954]

Legia Warsaw v St Pat's live on Setanta tonight. Very much looking forward to that game, should be a massive test for a Pat's team who haven't really been performing of late.

[ArdeeBhoy]

All for Pats to play for now...

[OwlsFan]

...and you. I suspect you'd prefer a visit to Inchicore rather than Warsaw.

[Stuttgart88]

..it'd be unlikely to be in Inchicore though.

Both legs could be played in a borrowed rugby ground.

[ArdeeBhoy]

So Legia and their fascist fans, oh joy. Most Tims would have preferred Pats'...

Though also saw certain LOI fans of my acquaintance, bizarrely were supporting Legia, presumably due to potential envy had Pats sneaked through and played in front of 40k+ in the New Lansdowne. Eejits.

[OwlsFan]

Champions League Results

Wednesday 23rd July 2014

UEFA CHAMPIONS LEAGUE - QUALIFYING - SECOND ROUND

Aktobe 3-0 Dinamo Tbilisi
(agg 4-0)

FK Ventspils 0-1 Malmö FF
(agg 0-1)

Show
HJK Helsinki 2-1 Rabotnicki
(agg 2-1)

Steaua Bucharest 1-0 Strømsgodset
(agg 2-0)

NK Maribor 2-0 Zrinjski Mostar
(agg 2-0)

St Patrick's Athletic 0-5 Legia Warsaw
(agg 1-6)

Tuesday 22nd July 2014

Sutjeska Niksic 0-3 Sheriff Tiraspol
(agg 0-5)

F91 Dudelange 1-1 Ludogorets Razgrad
(agg 1-5)

Levadia Tallinn 1-1 Sparta Prague
(agg 1-8)

FK Qarabag 4-0 Valletta FC
(agg 5-0)


Maccabi Tel Aviv 2-0 FC Santa Coloma
(agg 3-0)

The New Saints 0-2 Slovan Bratislava
(agg 0-3)

HB Tórshavn 1-3 Partizan Belgrade
(agg 1-6)

Skënderbeu Korcë1-1 BATE Borisov
(agg 1-1)
BATE Borisov win the tie

Zalgiris 0-2 Dinamo Zagreb
(agg 0-4)

Debrecen 2-0 Cliftonville
(agg 2-0)

Celtic 4-0 KR Reykjavík
(agg 5-0)

No luck for Cliftonville either :(

[Charlie Darwin]

Celtic are rancid, my word. I know they've a new coach but they don't seem to have any clear plan at work.

[Stuttgart88]

Not watching but keeping an eye on the bbc text commentary. They sound like they are being spanked. Forster has given them a chance though.

To think Pats were disappointed to draw in Warsaw!

[Stuttgart88]

Any of those Legia guys in the Polish team?

[Charlie Darwin]

A couple of them have played friendlies and minor qualifiers but wouldn't be near the main games.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Ronny Deila - "Celtic are bigger than Atletico Madrid".

4 weeks later, Celtic lose 4-1 to Legia Warsaw.

[Charlie Darwin]

Did he really say that? Well, historically they are a bigger club, but not sure what relevance it has now. I liked how the first thing he did when he took over as Celtic manager was slag off the rest of the league. He has had an awful start to his reign but he has the sort of arrogance and not giving a fig what people think that tends to succeed in the Old Firm.

[nigel-harps1954]

Are they historically a bigger club than Atletico though?

[Charlie Darwin]

Of course they are.

[nigel-harps1954]

I would disagree greatly. Atletico were one of the big clubs in Spain and Europe for many years before anyone had even heard of Celtic outside of the home nations.

Celtic are a historically massive club in this part of the world, but I'd argue that Atletico are, and always have been, a much bigger club.

[Charlie Darwin]

Bigger in what sense? They haven't won more trophies, they haven't done more in Europe, they haven't had more fans, they haven't produced more internationals, they haven't produced more world class players. They're both huge clubs but Celtic have the better pedigree.

edit: I'm not even a Celtic fan. I couldn't give a fig about them really.

[Gather round]

Oh dear. The Tims would have struggled to beat the Legia of Mary on that performance.

Norwegian Ronny, he'll soon be gonny.

[bennocelt]

He also was moaning about having to play three pre qualifying games, he seems to be a bit of a tit

[ArdeeBhoy]

Chas is right here, but asking far too much in the 2nd.leg.

That said, WGS & Lenny both had stinkers on their first forays into Europe. Though longer-term, unless Celtic can escape the SPL they're destined to a long-time decline. There's just no money in it as a sustainable 'product' even if the Zombies do return. And at least Celtic are solvent, but Desmond needs a long hard look at whether treading water is sufficient.

[DannyInvincible]

He also was moaning about having to play three pre qualifying games, he seems to be a bit of a tit

Legia have had to play the same amount.

[Charlie Darwin]

Stokes starts for Celtic at Parkhead tonight, but so far Legia looking stronger.

[Stuttgart88]

Hard to believe Pats could have won there.

[Charlie Darwin]

I retain my belief that Legia are actually a bit rubbish.

[ArdeeBhoy]

What I said a week ago still stands.

And as Legia and their fascist fans will soon find out, beating Celtic currently is no indicator of 'quality'.

[Neish]

I retain my belief that Legia are actually a bit rubbish.

And Celtic are rubisher

Re Celtic I think this shows that without regularly facing a strong Rangers in competitive football they have become used to winning without getting out of 2nd or 3rd gear. Then they can not up their game when it come to European football

[Charlie Darwin]

Looks like Celtic might get another free pass: http://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/2cwm7y/reports_that_legia_fielded_ineligible_player/

[BonnieShels]

That's madness.

Any links anywhere else outside of reddit?

[Charlie Darwin]

BBC on it now: http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/28693855

Only linked to reddit because the source was Polish.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Seems like the Debrecen precedent will lead to a fine, but not an expulsion.

[DannyInvincible]

Seems like the Debrecen precedent will lead to a fine, but not an expulsion.

As far as I can make out, direct expulsion is not a punishment applicable to cases of clubs fielding either ineligible or suspended players. A match being declared forfeit may have the consequence of knocking a team out of a tournament, of course.

I'd also thought Legia might have had a lifeline due to the apparent precedent, but the Debrecen case centred around a player who had been ineligible to play for them; the punishment for fielding an ineligible player "may" be a match being declared forfeit (a 3-0 loss to the offending team or the actual result remaining if less favourable to them). That leaves room for other forms of punishment, including fines, evidently.

Article 21.2 covers cases of clubs fielding suspended players, as was the case with Legia's Bereszyński: http://www.uefa.org/MultimediaFiles/Download/Regulations/uefaorg/UEFACompDisCases/02/11/23/49/2112349_DOWNLOAD.pdf

It is very clear, with seemingly no room for any appeal or manoeuvering by Legia.


A match is declared forfeit if a player who has been suspended following a disciplinary decision participates in the match.

If the rules are adhered to, Celtic will be awarded a 3-0 victory in that match and will progress 4-4 on aggregate with a little help from the away goals rule.

[BonnieShels]

What's different from Legia pleading "in good faith"? He played for 2 minutes of a tie that seemingly for everyone concerned was over.

UEFA will be very careful with making this decision and let's make it clear as far as three match bans go, he was banned for the Pats 2 legs and the first Celtic leg. Boom. Three games.

Unless he played against Pats or in the first Celtic leg?
..

[osarusan]

What's different from Legia pleading "in good faith"? He played for 2 minutes of a tie that seemingly for everyone concerned was over.

UEFA will be very careful with making this decision and let's make it clear as far as three match bans go, he was banned for the Pats 2 legs and the first Celtic leg. Boom. Three games.

Unless he played against Pats or in the first Celtic leg?
..

I said this on the thread in the LOI forum already, but seemingly it's not as simple as just counting 3 games and then a player is free to play again - he has to be registered for the tie/competition (not sure which) in order for these games to count as part of his ban being served.

Something very similar happened a couple of years ago:


ND Mura 05 have been awarded a 3-0 win in their UEFA Europa League third qualifying round first leg against FC Arsenal Kyiv after the Ukrainian team fielded an ineligible player.

Last Thursday's opener ended in a 3-0 win for the home side, but UEFA's Control and Disciplinary Body ruled that the result should be a 3-0 victory for Slovenian visitors Mura because Arsenal Kyiv's Eric Matoukou, the scorer of the third goal, was serving the second game of a two-match suspension.

Matoukou had been handed a two-match ban after receiving a red card while playing for KRC Genk in a UEFA Europa League qualifier against FC Porto on 19 August 2010.

The Cameroonian international sat out the second leg of that tie in Portugal but, having not been registered for UEFA competition by Genk in 2011/12, had not served the second part of his suspension before taking to the field last week.

With the first-leg result having been forfeited, Mura will be defending a 3-0 lead when the tie concludes in Slovenia on Thursday. In addition, Matoukou has now been banned for two matches, the first being the upcoming second leg. An appeal can be lodged against this decision within three days of the dispatch of the written decision.


http://www.uefa.org/disciplinary/news/newsid=1845491.html

so even though that player had transferred from Genk to Arsenal Kyiv, he still hadn't finished serving a ban from two seasons earlier. Genk actually played in the CL group stages in 2011-12, but he wasn't registered for the tournament so it didn't count towards serving his suspension.

From reading that, if Legia hadn't registered the player (because he was suspended and couldn't play), then the games can't be counted towards his ban.

But, if the player was registered for the competition including the tie against Pats (and Celtic, obviously), then Legia should be ok...maybe?

I don't know how registration for these tournaments works. Is there a registration process for each tie? The CL runs across transfer windows so there must be some flexibility with squad registration during a tournament, but I don't know whether it happens for each qualifying round or not.

[DannyInvincible]

What's different from Legia pleading "in good faith"? He played for 2 minutes of a tie that seemingly for everyone concerned was over.

It would seem like a common-sense approach, but the applicable rule for the fielding of suspended players appears to be unequivocal. The rule relating to playing an ineligible player would have left leeway for Legia to plead "in good faith", just like Debrecen had a few years ago, had Bereszyński been ineligible.

[DannyInvincible]

I've read on the BBC that Celtic would be seeded for the play-off round draw if re-instated: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/28693855


Should Celtic be reinstated to the Champions League, they will be seeded, with their potential opponents being Ludogorets Razgrad of Bulgaria, Malmo of Sweden, Aalborg of Denmark, Maribor of Slovenia or Slovan Bratislava of Slovakia.

Legia would be in the unseeded pot for the draw though. Does this mean UEFA will be forced to make a decision on this before the draw? The draw is just over an hour away this morning, isn't it?

[DannyInvincible]

Celtic have been re-instated: http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/celtic/285545-celtic-reinstated-in-champions-league-play-offs-after-legia-forfeit/

[osarusan]

Yeah, he wasn't registered for the Pats games, and therefore they didn't count.

From the link in Danny's post:


The mix-up by Legia lies in the exclusion of Bereszynski from their squad for the two second qualifying round matches with St Patrick's Athletic earlier in the competition.

The player was due to serve a three-match suspension after a red card in the UEFA Europa League last term and Legia believed his absence from the two games, as well as the first leg against Celtic, cleared him to play in Scotland.

However Bereszynski was not included on Legia's squad list submitted to UEFA for the St Patrick's Athletic games.

[DannyInvincible]

What would have happened had Legia won the first leg 3-0?

And what happens with bookies who'll have already paid out on a 2-0 Legia win in Murrayfield? They just gotta accept their losses?

[Eminence Grise]

Celtic should change the club nickname to The Buoys - jammy sods keep floating back up.

[DeLorean]

And what happens with bookies who'll have already paid out on a 2-0 Legia win in Murrayfield? They just gotta accept their losses?

Accepting their losses wouldn't be so bad, but do they also have to pay out to everybody that backed Celtic to win, win 3-0, win with handicap, etc, etc?

[DeLorean]

Maribor v Celtic

Will Celtic Park be available for the second leg? Could make all the difference.

[pineapple stu]

What would have happened had Legia won the first leg 3-0?
Replay at a neutral venue I presume.

Just like Leeds v Stuttgart in 1992.

[DeLorean]

Champions Section

Maribor (SVN) v Celtic (SCO)
Salzburg (AUT) v Malmö (SWE)
AaB (DEN) v APOEL (CYP)
Steaua (ROU) v Ludogorets (BUL)
Slovan Bratislava (SVK) v BATE (BLR)

League Route

Beşiktaş (TUR) v Arsenal (ENG)
Standard Liège (BEL) v Zenit (RUS)
København (DEN) v Leverkusen (GER)
LOSC (FRA) v Porto (POR)
Napoli (ITA) v Athletic (ESP)

[DeLorean]

Replay at a neutral venue I presume.

Just like Leeds v Stuttgart in 1992.

That was slightly different though wasn't it? As in the scoreline had nothing to do with the game being replayed. Leeds had already finished level on aggregate (but lost on away goals). That tie would have been replayed regardless of the score due to the infraction. If we were going by that criteria Legia and Celtic would have to replay now anyway.

[ger121]

Maribor will fancy their chances. Have done well in Europe in recent seasons and confidence will be high they can make the group stages.

Tasty tie for Arsenal but you'd think they'll have enough over the 2 legs

[pineapple stu]

That was slightly different though wasn't it? As in the scoreline had nothing to do with the game being replayed. Leeds had already finished level on aggregate (but lost on away goals). That tie would have been replayed regardless of the score due to the infraction. If we were going by that criteria Legia and Celtic would have to replay now anyway.
In that example though, Stuttgart did win the first leg 3-0, and then lost 4-1 to win on away goals. The 4-1 was changed to 3-0, which meant the tie ended 3-3 on aggregate, and a replay was needed. So the scoreline was the entire point of the replay alright.

This seems to tie in exactly with your question regarding if Legia had won 3-0 in the first leg, and then been scratched in the second?

[back of the net]

Accepting their losses wouldn't be so bad, but do they also have to pay out to everybody that backed Celtic to win, win 3-0, win with handicap, etc, etc?

Just was in contact with paddypower - they say result stands and they wont be paying out on anyone who backed celtic


Seperately - I appreciate rules are rules but re-instating celtic is a bit of a p*sstake

[DeLorean]

In that example though, Stuttgart did win the first leg 3-0, and then lost 4-1 to win on away goals. The 4-1 was changed to 3-0, which meant the tie ended 3-3 on aggregate, and a replay was needed. So the scoreline was the entire point of the replay alright.

This seems to tie in exactly with your question regarding if Legia had won 3-0 in the first leg, and then been scratched in the second?

Oh right, I didn't realise they awarded a 3-0 that time. Apologies, your example is spot on so!

Devil's advocate.... you lose the first leg 4-0 but win the return leg 5-0. The team you beat breaks the rules in the return leg... are you then knocked out after being awarded a 3-0 scoreline? :p I'm sure they have that angle covered.

[pineapple stu]

Yeah, I'm sure that angle's covered alright.

Though I don't know why UEFA can't check the squads in advance. So in this case, they see the Legia guy is suspended and tell Legia. If they then play him during the game, they get kicked out. Simple as.

All it'd need is a central database of players and suspensions (which surely has to be kept?), and some means of transmitting data over the air. An internet, if you will.

[DeLorean]

Just was in contact with paddypower - they say result stands and they wont be paying out on anyone who backed celtic


Seperately - I appreciate rules are rules but re-instating celtic is a bit of a p*sstake

Interesting.

Yeah it seems crazy harsh but I suppose they have to take a firm line. The player in question could just as easily have had a crucial role in a closer tie. They can't really go differentiating between situations and introducing grey areas. Up to the clubs to keep their own house in order.

In fairness to Celtic, they're just the innocent beneficiaries. It would have been embarrassing/cringing if they went actively seeking a sanction.