Champions League 2014/5

[DeLorean]

How appropriate it is that they were fined for accusing UEFA of being money grabbers!

http://cdn2.independent.ie/incoming/article30546422.ece/332e5/ALTERNATES/h342/Celtic.jpg

[BonnieShels]

Only saw this now. What was the 'really?' bit aimed at?

Please let this happen....

Uefa consider change to away-goals rule and Champions League seedings (http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/sep/04/uefa-champions-league-seedings)

I hate away goals. No place in football nowadays for it.

The seeding should remain as is.

[DeLorean]

Yeah, agree on both counts. The group stages are pretty dull though usually. There's probably just too many groups. If it was reduced to four groups of four again and scrap the last 16 it would increase the quality no end, but obviously that's not going to happen for reasons outlined by Legia above. Anyway, it's probably a good thing that more teams get their day in the sun.

[DeLorean]

http://i.imgur.com/QzoR9BK.png

[ArdeeBhoy]

Just sayin'...https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10624854_694186080675371_8822230210236855257_n.jpg ?oh=14ee9fb7205ce6926fbb5e95cd7265e0&oe=54C8EAD6&__gda__=1418199918_e66028d7e1e5b45a8c2ee1f57aaf875 b

[DannyInvincible]

In all likelihood, UEFA have fined or are planning to fine Real Madrid for the display there, assuming the UEFA delegate(s) at the match saw the flag. I saw a Dortmund fan waving an Israeli flag behind the goal in their game against Arsenal also and would, similarly, expect that UEFA have fined Dortmund if the delegate(s) at the game saw it.

Why is there an assumption that UEFA aren't fining clubs when their fans display "inappropriate" Israeli flags? Just because fines aren't reported in the news doesn't mean clubs haven't been penalised. I suppose you could always contact UEFA if you badly wanted clarification and they were happy to provide it.

In these instances, do you feel Real and Dortmund should refuse to pay the fines or what is your feeling on this matter? Do you support the "absolute right" of their fans to protest/display certain flags if they like?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Don't support Israel, so not especially in favour. But as long as they're not overtly offensive (eg.no swastikas, fascist crosses) have no problem with flags in general being waved unlike the cretins in UEFA...

Anyway if clubs whose fans wave Israel flags, get fined, will be surprised.

[nigel-harps1954]

The difference is, it makes no difference to Real Madrid or Dortmund to lose €18,000. It's pittance to them. It makes a difference to Dundalk though as it's almost twice a weekly wage bill.

[Charlie Darwin]

18k is almost enough to cover Richie Towell's wages for a week.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Except it's about the principle to protest, within reason.

And UEFA levying unreasonable fines, never mind the club. Depending on what they get fined for, Dortmund too should refuse to pay.
R.Madrid have had dozens of fascist banners over the years so they can GTF.

[Charlie Darwin]

Apparently there was a fascist banner or two in Dortmund at one point as well.

[DannyInvincible]

Don't support Israel, so not especially in favour. But as long as they're not overtly offensive (eg.no swastikas, fascist crosses) have no problem with flags in general being waved unlike the cretins in UEFA...

But what you deem "overtly offensive" won't be the same as what flag-wavers of other particular flags might deem "overtly offensive", so how do you discriminate? I suspect many waving various questionable flags and such will generally display those symbols because they feel they are representative of something they feel is right and good, rather than because they are villains who are malevolent to the core and intentionally and gratuitously hellbent on causing offence to innocent victims simply for its own sake. Some people might consider the Palestinian flag "overtly offensive", but I imagine you would strongly deny the flag's offending potential and would disapprove of any suspicion directed towards those seen waving such flags of seeking to cause offence. How then would you determine exactly what should and shouldn't be permitted? If you reject any supposed right of supporters to wave Israeli flags, but strongly approve of a supposed right to wave Palestinian flags, aren't you guilty of the same double standards of which you accuse UEFA in reverse?


Anyway if clubs whose fans wave Israel flags, get fined, will be surprised.

But do we know that UEFA haven't been fining clubs for their fans displaying Israeli flags? Maybe they have, for all we know...


Except it's about the principle to protest, within reason.

Where do you draw the line of "reason"?


And UEFA levying unreasonable fines, never mind the club. Depending on what they get fined for, Dortmund too should refuse to pay.

But they'll incur further punishment (possible disqualification) if they refuse to comply, so in what position are they to refuse to pay when they seek to continue participating in UEFA competition? Celtic were fined for fans waving Palestine flags; would you urge Celtic's disputing of that fine to the point of disqualification? Are you disappointed that they haven't refused to pay and, if you are, then why did you welcome Celtic's reinstatement back into the Champions League (a UEFA competition) at Legia's expense, especially if you have absolutely no time for UEFA's double standards?

[NeverFeltBetter]

I could have sworn we had a thread about this issue somewhere....

[DannyInvincible]

I could have sworn we had a thread about this issue somewhere....

Aye, where'd that go? :p

[bennocelt]

We really should set up CL/Europa flag bingo
I saw a Palestinian flag at the Bayern game yesterday. House:D

[Charlie Darwin]

Spurs v Partizan should be good craic in the flag stakes.

[ArdeeBhoy]

But what you deem "overtly offensive" won't be the same as what flag-wavers of other particular flags might deem "overtly offensive", so how do you discriminate? I suspect many waving various questionable flags and such will generally display those symbols because they feel they are representative of something they feel is right and good, rather than because they are villains who are malevolent to the core and intentionally and gratuitously hellbent on causing offence to innocent victims simply for its own sake. Some people might consider the Palestinian flag "overtly offensive", but I imagine you would strongly deny the flag's offending potential and would disapprove of any suspicion directed towards those seen waving such flags of seeking to cause offence. How then would you determine exactly what should and shouldn't be permitted? If you reject any supposed right of supporters to wave Israeli flags, but strongly approve of a supposed right to wave Palestinian flags, aren't you guilty of the same double standards of which you accuse UEFA in reverse?



But do we know that UEFA haven't been fining clubs for their fans displaying Israeli flags? Maybe they have, for all we know...



Where do you draw the line of "reason"?



But they'll incur further punishment (possible disqualification) if they refuse to comply, so in what position are they to refuse to pay when they seek to continue participating in UEFA competition? Celtic were fined for fans waving Palestine flags; would you urge Celtic's disputing of that fine to the point of disqualification? Are you disappointed that they haven't refused to pay and, if you are, then why did you welcome Celtic's reinstatement back into the Champions League (a UEFA competition) at Legia's expense, especially if you have absolutely no time for UEFA's double standards?
These points have already been answered elsewhere.

Not sure what all the self-righteousness is about btw? UEFA are and will continue to be fallible, hypocritical and two-faced about this.
If you really don't get that...I give up.

[DannyInvincible]

I do get that. I've repeatedly acknowledged UEFA's weaknesses; they've never been under dispute. Most posters in the Dundalk/Palestine flags/UEFA fine thread (http://foot.ie/threads/193178-Dundalk-Fined-For-Palestine-Flag-at-Euro-Game) were critical of UEFA's position and the ambiguity or potential inconsistency in the application of some of their regulations. I was just trying to get clarification on your own position as it seemed untenable and contradictory in very significant places. I'm not sure you did answer all of the above questions though. If you could shed some further light on them, it'd be helpful. Was any explanation ever given for your welcoming stance on Celtic's participation in UEFA competition this season when you expect Dundalk to have risked disqualification for the sake of a vague principle that has absolutely nothing to do with them? Why don't you apply the same principle to Celtic's situation? If you've answered that, I've missed it and would need you to direct me to it. I'm not trying to be self-righteous; it's just the expectation that I can't at all fathom, especially given Dundalk's very modest financial position. I'm not testing your position against my moral standard; I'm testing it against the standard or principle you yourself have set. Sure when would I ever be self-righteous anyway?! :p

Why was the whole thread moved to the rubbish bin, by the way?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Don't ask...

[DannyInvincible]

Spurs v Partizan should be good craic in the flag stakes.

Indeed, Partizan are being investigated following the display of an anti-Semitic banner:

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/77699000/jpg/_77699702_partizan_banner.jpg

More on it here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/29283118

[Charlie Darwin]

If that wasn't racist it would actually be a cool banner.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Apparantly Partizan have Jewish links themselves, though can't currently find the link I saw on Fbk.earlier...

[Charlie Darwin]

Apparantly Partizan have Jewish links themselves, though can't currently find the link I saw on Fbk.earlier...
Well Avram Grant was briefly their coach so they might be a bit less bigoted than other clubs in the area, but I don't think they have any real Jewish connections. Which is just as well for the Jews.

[ArdeeBhoy]

No, apparantly it was something stronger, but can't be bothered to trawl through Facebook feed to find it.

[Charlie Darwin]

This is the day geysir's reputation soars like steam-propelled water or comes crashing back to earth like the same steam-propelled water moments later. I can't think of the word right now.

Either way, sounds like a great atmosphere in Basel. I expect Basel to win and take control of the group now that Ludogorets are leading Real.

[geysir]

This is the day geysir's reputation soars like steam-propelled water or comes crashing back to earth like the same steam-propelled water moments later. I can't think of the word right now.

Either way, sounds like a great atmosphere in Basel. I expect Basel to win and take control of the group now that Ludogorets are leading Real.
I don't know Charlie, anyone that knows anything about football, who has observed european competition football over the past few seasons,could have predicted a win for minnows Basel against the billion dollar brand, team Liverpool. This result completes the double for Basel who comprehensively beat the liverpool youth team last night.
It was a so so game tonight but the locals won't care a jot about that, though Basel did manage some good ball retention in the last 1/4 of the game, with a couple of phases of 30 -40 passes. How we would celebrate a phase of 10 passes.

[Charlie Darwin]

I don't know Charlie, anyone that knows anything about football, who has observed european competition football over the past few seasons,could have predicted a win for minnows Basel against the billion dollar brand, team Liverpool. This result completes the double for Basel who comprehensively beat the liverpool youth team last night.
It was a so so game tonight but the locals won't care a jot about that, though Basel did manage some good ball retention in the last 1/4 of the game, with a couple of phases of 30 -40 passes. How we would celebrate a phase of 10 passes.
Youth game was this afternoon, wasn't it?

Basel have now won their last four meetings with English top-four opposition. And yet people will still say it's a result of a bad performance from Liverpool. After Switzerland dominated England and lost due to their own poor mistakes.

[geysir]

RTE are just so embedded in the cause of the epl teams that they lose objectivity and balanced analysis in the pre/post game chat. Then again, that's their stock and trade.
Basel out-passed, out-possesed and outplayed a bedraggled Liverpool who just have no excuse for not having their pecker up, for a big CL league game in a competition that they put so much energy and placed so much importance, getting into.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Without Suarez to bang in the goals at will, Liverpool look distinctly more ordinary. All it needs is for Balotelli to do something stupid in a game and the wolves will be circling Rodgers.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Two good last posts on the matter (sorry, Fly!), a few games to go mind. BrendRod safe for a few more weeks I reckon.

[DannyInvincible]

Partizan were fined €40,000 for the above banner and are now facing a partial stadium closure: http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/oct/06/partizan-belgrade-partial-stadium-closure-tottenham-antisemitic-banner

[pineapple stu]

Half times tonight -

Roma 0-5 Bayern
BATE Borisov 0-6 Shakhtar Donetsk

Bloomin' hell!

[Charlie Darwin]

Bayern's prolificacy only goes to show what a great job Wilson, Whelan, et al did in snatching a draw in Germany :)

[The Fly]

Half times tonight -

Roma 0-5 Bayern
BATE Borisov 0-6 Shakhtar Donetsk

Bloomin' hell!

Shakhtar showing everyone how to master BATE.

[pineapple stu]

Roma pull one back. Bad idea - bayern score two more. 7-1 now.

7-0 in Belarus. Luiz Adriano with five, which I think equals Messi's record? BATE lost 6-0 in their opener; could be a record bad defence too.

Chelsea with a mere five at this stage.

[Stuttgart88]

Shakhtar showing everyone how to master BATE.
That is so bad it's actually good.

[Stuttgart88]

Bayern's prolificacy only goes to show what a great job Wilson, Whelan, et al did in snatching a draw in Germany :)
Or how lucky we were.

[The Fly]

That is so bad it's actually good.

I know.... http://z5.ifrm.com/5902/57/0/e14564/e14564.gif

[Charlie Darwin]

Or how lucky we were.
Only our goal was lucky. The rest was skill.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Bayern's prolifigacy only goes to show what a great job Wilson, Whelan, et al did in snatching a draw in Germany :)
Except the teams aren't exactly the same. Only 4 players over the two games.
Most Bayern fans I know are so deluded when it comes to self-promotion of their team, they claim their side is superior to the national team and are in fact 'The Mannschaft'...

[Charlie Darwin]

Ah right, we're ****e then.

[ArdeeBhoy]

?? :confused:

Fortunately we don't have to play Bayern or say the top 8 in the CL, suspect we wouldn't just have to rely on luck...

[OwlsFan]

Kompany's interview at the end of the Moscow game was interesting. Hoddle and Sky interpreted it as saying he didn't think it was a penalty. If they had actually listened to what he actually said, it was because the ref didn't give the peno to City in the 1st half, he should have ignored the penalty claim by Moscow in the second half and "no one would have noticed" i.e. two wrongs make a right.

Sky are always confused by the fact that City do well in the EPL but struggle in the CL. Could it be that most of the teams in the EPL are not very good?

[DannyInvincible]

Sky are always confused by the fact that City do well in the EPL but struggle in the CL. Could it be that most of the teams in the EPL are not very good?

That can't be right; sure it's the Best League in the World™.

[BonnieShels]

But but Liverpool...

I have to say watching Liverpool crash and burn is one of the biggest joys in world football.

Gerrard is a charlatan. Captain Fantastic me hole.

[DannyInvincible]

Gerrard is a charlatan. Captain Fantastic me hole.

Did you see him after the final whistle when Arbeloa approached him and went to remove his jersey for what must have been a pre-agreed swap? I had just sat down again with my dinner and caught it in passing, but it looked like Gerrard patted his former team-mates chest and signaled for him to wait to do the swap until they got into the tunnel where they'd be out of view of the cameras and fans. A charlatan is right.

[BonnieShels]

I didn't see that.

But the amount of times he wandered around the park out of position was rather amazing. Plus he was so lacksadaisacal when James made his pass over the top. Made no effort to intervene. Just jogged past.

Liverpool will do nothing with that squad until they're rod of him.

[Real ale Madrid]

Will Arsene Wengers' Wife enjoy her few belgian beers tonight?

Chimay.

[Stuttgart88]

Kompany's interview at the end of the Moscow game was interesting. Hoddle and Sky interpreted it as saying he didn't think it was a penalty. If they had actually listened to what he actually said, it was because the ref didn't give the peno to City in the 1st half, he should have ignored the penalty claim by Moscow in the second half and "no one would have noticed" i.e. two wrongs make a right.

Sky are always confused by the fact that City do well in the EPL but struggle in the CL. Could it be that most of the teams in the EPL are not very good?
I think the assessment of the merit of each penalty was a bit one eyed too, albeit I am posting this from the perspective of the other eye!

[Charlie Darwin]

I didn't see that.

But the amount of times he wandered around the park out of position was rather amazing. Plus he was so lacksadaisacal when James made his pass over the top. Made no effort to intervene. Just jogged past.

Liverpool will do nothing with that squad until they're rod of him.
To be fair, Gerrard is playing out of position, mainly because Liverpool finally have players better capable of playing his preferred one. Sort of like Robbie playing as a lone striker for Ireland, he's not the most effective player you could have in the role but he seems to need to be in the team for his aura or whatever, and now he's once again the only member of the team who can make a goal from an improbable situation.