RTE Panel

[ArdeeBhoy]

Ok, if you say so, but referring to your post about chances when you didn't say any of that at all...

[Charlie Darwin]

I didn't think I needed to state the obvious any more than I did, but maybe I need to spell things out more for some people.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Clearly a unique interpretation...

[geysir]

On our national self-loathing and the bitterness of Dunphy et al, this article is a decent read: http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/european-championships/hold-the-back-page-pushing-through-the-old-barriers-30674961.html
There have some excellent articles published since O'Shea's equaliser.

Hardly had the ball hit the net but the reduction process started, a poor cross, a lucky goal, a lucky escape, the german performance was a 'monument to conceit adorned with vanity and self-indulgence', a one in a million piece of luck that will never ever be exactly repeated. And that's from the fans.

[Drumcondra 69er]

There have some excellent articles published since O'Shea's equaliser.

Hardly had the ball hit the net but the reduction process started, a poor cross, a lucky goal, a lucky escape, the german performance was a 'monument to conceit adorned with vanity and self-indulgence', a one in a million piece of luck that will never ever be exactly repeated. And that's from the fans.

Joking aside, it was a poor cross, followed by a superb piece of skill from Hendrick and a fantastic finish from O'Shea.

[geysir]

Fortunately the fans didn't have the perfect cross to celebrate, the one that was met by O'Shea's head and went over the bar :)
As I pointed out somewhere, Finnan's cross that landed at McAteer's feet was hit with a very dubious conviction.
When a move is so good, one perceived weak part in that move won't derail it from its glorious destiny (unless of course, the weak part is the final part).

[OwlsFan]

Sky (ignoring all the rest of the hype) are different class with Carragher and Neville. Recently retired and not afraid to put forward their views. I had to laugh at Carragher last night when he said "I never enjoy United goals but....".

[geysir]

The best thing that can be said for RTE football coverage is that it's not Fox Sport.
Though I learned something new tonight, that Costa (Rica) is pronounced Coasta.

[DeLorean]

Sadlier in for Giles (http://balls.ie/football/changing-guard-rte-panel-friday/)

[DeLorean]

Our scholar of Spanish football was at it again last night. When discussing Real Madrid he said there's a rift in the camp, one side being led by the originals, Casillas & Ramos, the other by Ronaldo. This has been going on since Mourinho's time and eventually cost him his job, they can forget about winning the Champions League unless they sort it out, said Eamon, ignoring the fact that they won it last May. Funny how he didn't feel the need to mention it during Real's twenty-two game winning run earlier in the season.

To be fair to him, he was the only one of the three who said Zlatan's red card was very harsh, Hamman & Giles were convinced it was.

[OwlsFan]

When will George Hamilton ever learn? Last night when Chelsea went 1-0 he said "That is that!" even though it only made the score 2-1 on aggregate. Then when PSG, who had been outplaying Chelsea with 10 men, equalised he said "who would have believed it"? He's been at this sort of stuff for decades and never seems to foresee the possibility of the team losing actually scoring. Bizarre.

Much to my amazement on Sky, Neville and Carragher were having a pop at the Premiership and saying how far it is behind other leagues. Their bosses won't have liked that.

[DeLorean]

Yeah Neville and Carragher seem immune from that nonsense. I remember a few weeks ago Neville saying that the La Liga fixture between Athletic Bilbao and Atletico Madrid restored his faith in football, having watched Liverpool against Arsenal just before it. He was highlighting the gulf in intensity between the two matches, and how the Premier League had fallen miles behind in that regard.

In fairness to George, I think he realised that he jumped the gun immediately after saying "that should be that" or "that's that, you would have to think", something along those lines. He commented straight away that "of course, PSG still only need a goal to force extra time but Chelsea have something more to hold on to now"*, which was fair enough. I've never known a man to overcomplicated such a simple concept as the away goals rule though!

[KK77]

When will George Hamilton ever learn? Last night when Chelsea went 1-0 he said "That is that!" even though it only made the score 2-1 on aggregate. Then when PSG, who had been outplaying Chelsea with 10 men, equalised he said "who would have believed it"? He's been at this sort of stuff for decades and never seems to foresee the possibility of the team losing actually scoring. Bizarre.

Much to my amazement on Sky, Neville and Carragher were having a pop at the Premiership and saying how far it is behind other leagues. Their bosses won't have liked that.

I think he confused poor Ray who thought when it went 2-1 that PSG now needed two to go through!

[DannyInvincible]

Thought this entertaining...

'A Love Letter to Eamon Dunphy, the Most Important Voice in Irish Football': https://sports.vice.com/en_uk/article/a-love-letter-to-eamon-dunphy-the-most-important-voice-in-irish-football


Eamon Dunphy is a football pundit and political commentator. He's appeared as part of Ireland's foremost footballing panel for RTÉ – our state broadcaster – for the past 30 years. He also writes articles and books, and, for over a decade, hosted current-affairs radio shows on Ireland's biggest stations. Though an ex-footballer hardened in England's lower leagues, he resists stereotype, having the ability to change depending on his audience. He's a Renaissance man, a kaleidoscope of shapes and colours, all combining to form an image of a middle finger raised defiantly to the sky.

With Liam Brady (ex-Arsenal) and John Giles (ex-Leeds), he makes up RTÉ's panel, Dunphy playing the Holy Spirit to Giles' Father and Brady's Son. He's the wildcard, the ill-defined hype man in the corner lashing out; he's the reason Irish people watch football punditry instead of turning it down.

...

[OwlsFan]

The most important voice in Irish football is Martin O'Neill. Don't get me started on the rest.

[DeLorean]

I think you would have been a little proud of Richard Sadlier after the Real Madrid Juventus game the last night Owls Fan. He really pulled Dunphy on some of his guff. Dunphy was saying how the Spanish League is poor and Sadlier was asking him to name a good league if he considers the Spanish one poor. Dunphy tried to wriggle out of it by saying he means it's imbalanced as opposed to poor and that only two teams (Barca & Real) can actually win it. Sadlier pointed out that Atletico are the current holders! Dunphy then said Barca won 6-0 recently and that you'd never get a scoreline like that in the Premier League. Sadlier pointed out that Manchester City beat QPR 6-0 just days previously, to which Dunphy said that was just an end of season game! Yes Eamon, a crucial end of season game which actually relegated QPR. Shameless stuff.

[EAFC_rdfl]

Eamon of course has no problem getting into the gutter, at one stage he digged Sadlier about 'where were you when Barca were losing CL semi finals, you were sitting at home that's where'. Hardly annoyed that your jacket shuffling sidekick was dropped for the night were you Eamon!?

[DeLorean]

Haha yeah I think he actually thought he got one up on Sadlier when he said that, as if not being on the RTE panel at that point in time meant he couldn't possibly know about football from that period.

[osarusan]

I like Sadlier a lot - he really does think about what he's saying.

The panel talked after the same game about Bale not being passed to, and some statistics that were supposed to back it up. Sadlier was saying that the numbers alone don't mean much and they'd need to be interpreted carefully, but Dunphy and Brady both dismissed this.

[geysir]

I like Sadlier a lot - he really does think about what he's saying.

The panel talked after the same game about Bale not being passed to, and some statistics that were supposed to back it up. Sadlier was saying that the numbers alone don't mean much and they'd need to be interpreted carefully, but Dunphy and Brady both dismissed this.
You didn't listen properly to the RTE panel discussion after the 2nd leg.
When Dunphy triumphed those passing-to-Bale stats (from Bale's agent), it was Brady who loudly dismissed the value of the 'passing stats' and exclaimed that there was no evidence of that in this game and don't pay any heed to what an agent says.

I really enjoy Brady when it comes to Italian football, both him and Giles were spot on with their analysis of Juve's performance in the 1st leg, Giles in particular was purring in his praise.
On the panel in the return game, Sadlier came out with some words about Bale hiding because of abuse by RM fans. Brady was more acutely analytical and said Bale bottled it and gave an example, that Bale never once took on Evra and always chose the easy option, that Bale's confidence was poor. In the ongoing discussion, Brady's was intelligently analytical in his comments about Bale's performance.

[DeLorean]

Brady was more acutely analytical and said Bale bottled it and gave an example, that Bale never once took on Evra and always chose the easy option, that Bale's confidence was poor. In the ongoing discussion, Brady's was intelligently analytical in his comments about Bale's performance.

Although I agree with the first bit of your post, I don't think either Brady or Dunphy dismissed Sandier's more thorough approach to understanding the statistics, I felt Brady talking about Bale bottling it was nonsense. Brady was making it sound as if Evra was left isolated one-on-one with Bale, when clearly Juve took obvious measures to make sure this was never the case. It was just lazy analysis saying he bottled it by not running past the 34 year old. Bale cuts inside more often than not because he is pretty one footed and was deployed on the right. Arjen Robben generally does the same but is never accused of bottling it. Even when he's playing with confidence he does that a lot. In fairness to Bale, there is plenty that could be thrown at him for his performance but he certainly didn't hide, although that would have been a fair enough evaluation of his first leg performance.

[DeLorean]

Only loosely connected to this thread but a good article by Jim McGuinness in today's Irish Times (http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/jim-mcguinness-rt%C3%A9-need-to-draw-line-between-opinion-and-disrespect-1.2225646).




Jim McGuinness: RTÉ need to draw line between opinion and disrespect

‘The Sunday Game’ is supposed to exude class but there are times it is just crass


On Sunday evening, I came in the door from Celtic Park and went to check the GAA championship results. Celtic had been presented with the league trophy and had won the last game of the season 5-0 against Inverness. So in Glasgow – well, half of it anyhow – there was a mood of celebration.

A night out for the team and management was planned so I was just at home to get ready for that.

When I was looking up the results, I immediately saw reports about the comment Joe Brolly had made about Marty Morrissey on The Sunday Game. And it was on my mind all evening.

Joe apologised for the remark he made about Marty live on the programme. It was offered in jest and the programme moved on. But I think the incident is like a window to a bigger issue which has been damaging to RTÉ and to its coverage of Gaelic football.

The Sunday Game is considered to be the blue riband programme of RTÉ’s sports coverage. It is supposed to be something that exudes class. But in some instances it can look more like crass than class. Sunday was an example of this.

During my time managing the Donegal team, we were on the receiving end of a lot of extreme criticism. Personally, it didn’t bother me. That doesn’t make it all right but during these times I am not sure how it affected my family or some of the players involved.

It needs to be remembered these are amateur players. They are, by definition, unpaid. And the managers are unpaid volunteers. That has somehow become lost.

Damaging connotations

When a pundit says something, it can empower viewers to repeat it. For me, there is a culture of sensationalism informing some of the criticism, which can only lead to people getting hurt. It is nothing new. The reference to “the Taliban” when it came to Donegal football: that carries very clear and very damaging connotations. It is more than just a soundbite or a throwaway line. Where does that leave us? Why associate us with that?“The Black death of football.” “Puke football.” “Farcical tactics.” What are these all about? When did this start becoming part of what we do? And in what other sport does this happen? And it seeps down into the detailed analysis. For instance, the description of a wide as being a “horrible” wide is another example. Horrible is a horrible word. It is easy to choose another. A player doesn’t go out to kick a “horrible” wide. He is doing his best. And he is sitting at home watching and hearing this. It would be easy to feel about two inches tall.

It is about pushing boundaries. For me, RTÉ should control the content but I feel in many respects they have sat on their hands and let the sensationalism evolve. I enjoy opinion and strong opinion at that. But there is a very important line between opinion and disrespect. People have a right to express their opinion but when their comments cross over into disrespect, it is an issue.

And that has happened several times in the last few years. It happened with us in Donegal several times. It happened with Seán Cavanagh two summers ago. It happened with Paul Grimley, the Armagh manager. Armagh were criticised for being naive and too open in their tactical approach one year and castigated for being too defensive the next. Where is the voice for the players here? And managers can’t come out and take people on for every comment that is made about them.

Many of these players are shaping their lives around football so they can play with their county. It is a big commitment and they deserve respect. I have travelled enough in my life to know there is a friendliness and humility about Irish people. At times those qualities are lacking in the coverage of the football championship. When I watch the hurling analysts, I see people engaging with one another with respect for the game and its participants, they give their opinions with a sense of fun and humility and offer a really good analysis of the game. I get a warm glow watching their exchanges.

The peculiar thing about the GAA is that when you see a big championship game in Croke Park, it looks and feels to all the world like an elite sporting event comparable to the NFL or the English Premier League and it has all the trappings that go with that – including media coverage. But the only people making nothing from that event are the players and management yet they are subject to this intense scrutiny and, increasingly, to disrespect when the line becomes blurred.

Base level of respect

The strange thing about Sunday was that the line became blurred in relation to an RTÉ journalist, Marty Morrissey. He was disrespected. There is a line there that shouldn’t be crossed. It doesn’t matter if you are Scott Brown playing for Celtic or Wayne Rooney at Manchester United or a county player or a television journalist: you deserve a base level of respect.What I would like to see happening is a return to basic human values when it comes to analysing Gaelic football. I don’t recall it being this way when I started playing 20 years ago. You can’t disparage people who are out trying to do their very best in an unpaid capacity. You can have a strong opinion about them but you can’t disrespect them in the language that you use to talk about them.

The culture of sensationalism may get ratings up but there is always going to be a human cost. And that human cost at the weekend was Marty Morrissey. But it will be someone else soon enough. Once something is said about an individual in any media, the impact of those words can affect that person for a long time. The broadcast ends and the debate moves on but the person at the centre of that debate can carry the criticisms with them and it can damage them.

RTÉ has a great reputation when it comes to covering sport. RTÉ and Ireland lost one of its great broadcasters yesterday in Bill O’Herlihy, who always did it the right way. And on The Sunday Game live show, Michael Lyster always tries to moderate fairly.

I have come to know some of the RTÉ journalists through my time with Donegal and hold them in very high regard. Marty Morrissey is one of those. He is a human being and as it happens, he is a great human being. But RTÉ have allowed this to happen with the coverage of Gaelic football by sitting on their hands and now it has affected one of their own staff members.

Cultural identity

And I absolutely believe The Sunday Game is hugely important not just for the GAA but for Irish cultural identity. And they need to know what it is to carry a blue riband television event.It is about setting an acceptable standard. If the view is that it is all about driving ratings, then fine. But it is morally wrong. I believe you can have high ratings and strong opinion without having outright disrespect. What happened with Marty Morrissey is a perfect opportunity for RTÉ to look in the mirror and to think about going in a different direction.

And that’s my opinion.

[Stuttgart88]

What did brolly say about Marty?

I've a lot of respect for M Guinness and I hope he's right about the humility of Irish people. However what I tend to see these days is OTT respect for a sport code that goes up against a handful of other countries and a complete disregard for another because we're not world class at it, like it's some sort of shameful secret to be kept out of public view.

[OwlsFan]

"Cavan football is as ugly as Marty Morrissey" (I believe).

[DeLorean]

What did brolly say about Marty?

The Examiner (http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/video-joe-brolly-quickly-backtracks-after-insulting-marty-morrissey--and-cavan-678625.html)

The acerbic pundit was speaking on The Sunday Game ahead of yesterday’s match between Cavan and Monaghan in the Ulster SFC.

He was discussing Cavan football in recent years and remarked: “Somebody said it's as ugly as Marty Morrissey, their football”.


“Maybe I should apologise to the people of Cavan,” he added immediately.


Brolly, or the production team, quickly realised the comment would not go down well and he backtracked at half-time.

The apology wasn’t enough to stop some viewers complaining about the insulting comment, particularly given Brolly had devoted a column in a national newspaper yesterday to highlighting the dangers of abusing people on the pitch.


“On the other thing, I just wanted to say obviously that what I said about Marty Morrissey earlier was said in the spirit of affection.” Brolly said. “It wasn't meant literally.”

[DeLorean]

I've a lot of respect for M Guinness and I hope he's right about the humility of Irish people. However what I tend to see these days is OTT respect for a sport code that goes up against a handful of other countries and a complete disregard for another because we're not world class at it, like it's some sort of shameful secret to be kept out of public view.

That may be too one dimensional a metric to determine the humilty of the Irish people. :)

[tetsujin1979]

I'll be perfectly honest, you lost me at the mention of Joe Brolly. Over the last 12 months I've lost all respect for the man between his rant about Roy Keane on Newstalk last year and self serving articles on his belief that amateur sport (ie GAA) is better than all other forms of sport simply because he says so.

[DeLorean]

So let me get this right, up until 12 months ago you had some respect for him? :)

[osarusan]

RTE don't always get the difference between allowing analysts the freedom to 'call it like it is' and allowing the analysts talk complete crap.

On the McGuinness article, I agree with some of it, but don't see how or why the players' amateur status should be a shield from the kind of criticism he (I assume) thinks would be somehow legitimate if they were professional.

[DeLorean]

I suppose, rightly or wrongly, it's seen as fair game to criticise somebody for the quality of their output if they're being paid. I can see some sense in this but that doesn't mean professionals deserve everything that's thrown at them either. In fairness, he did include professionals when he said that everybody deserves a basic level of respect.

I found the 'horrible wide' bit interesting because it's something I've noticed over the past couple of years. Surprisingly enough, I think Darragh Maloney is the main culprit here. It always sounded a bit daft to me, just not normal GAA lingo, and there really are better ways of wording it. Ger Canning is guilty here too I think but he comes out with some high quality nonsense at the best of times.

I saw a BBC preview of the Championship playoff final yesterday, with Phil Neville and Mark Lawrenson giving their "expert" opinion. At one stage Lawrenson mentioned that Bamford has scored a lot of goals this season, considering he's been used mainly from the bench! Jesus like this absolute spoofer is cleaning up, I'd say he's so busy going from place to place giving his expert opinion that he doesn't even have time to watch football!

[tetsujin1979]

So let me get this right, up until 12 months ago you had some respect for him? :)
coming from someone who had played the game at the highest level, I was prepared to give him (and his analysis of the game) the benefit of the doubt, but over time it's been eroded to nothing.

[Real ale Madrid]

McGuinness took a lot of stick from the Sunday game panel over his time as manager. He wasn't long getting his own back - think this is his second column.

Also he is off to work with sky himself soon. The GAA is some Craic for fellas speaking out of either side of their mouths.

His description of inter county managers as volunteers is better than Lance Armstrong contending he won 7 Tour de France clean - nonsense!

[DeLorean]

Also he is off to work with sky himself soon. The GAA is some Craic for fellas speaking out of either side of their mouths.

I don't see the contradiction?

[tetsujin1979]

I don't see the contradiction?

Criticising RTE for their coverage of the game, while covering the game for Sky

[DeLorean]

He's criticising the standard of the punditry, not punditry itself.

[nigel-harps1954]

His description of inter county managers as volunteers is better than Lance Armstrong contending he won 7 Tour de France clean - nonsense!

Personally, I loved his little line on players as amateurs.

"They are, by definition, unpaid"

By 'definition' is a great way to put it. Anyone that still believes players and staff aren't getting money for being part of an inter-county GAA setup needs a kick up the hole.

[seanfhear]

Personally, I loved his little line on players as amateurs.

"They are, by definition, unpaid"

By 'definition' is a great way to put it. Anyone that still believes players and staff aren't getting money for being part of an inter-county GAA setup needs a kick up the hole.What kind of money could a player get. I doubt if anyone can say.

I suppose down the line players will officially get paid. It will be interesting to see how it will all evolve.

[nigel-harps1954]

What kind of money could a player get. I doubt if anyone can say.

I suppose down the line players will officially get paid. It will be interesting to see how it will all evolve.


They get 'travel expenses'. I know for a fact though, they're getting paid quite healthy 'expenses', more than that of some LOI players weekly wage.

Officially they get no wage, but quite a few GAA players take time off work to play, and some county boards cover their wage they miss from work and declare them as expenses.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

RIP Bill :(

[DeLorean]

They get 'travel expenses'. I know for a fact though, they're getting paid quite healthy 'expenses', more than that of some LOI players weekly wage.

'They' is a fairly loose term. I doubt very much the county boards of Leitrim, Carlow, etc. can afford to pay expenses of any description, let alone payments over and above what the players have coughed out themselves. I'd be surprised if your average GAA intercounty player isn't operating at a loss tbh.

[DeLorean]

Brolly's response (http://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/joe-brolly-dictator-jim-mcguinness-is-one-to-talk-about-respect-31266683.html)

[Stuttgart88]

Soccer players live like Rappers. He really can't let it go can he?

[DeLorean]

Haha I knew you'd love it! The worst thing for me is that he selectively ignores that McGuinness praised Brolly's hurling counterparts, also employed by RTE, who "speak their minds" too, but in a respectful way. He conveniently highlights the admittedly bland MOTD but fails to mention the excellent and fairly untamed analysis provided by Neville and Carragher on Sky Sports, where they regularly question the character of players and teams such as Newcastle, QPR, etc., yet they're the TV company he's taking the main swipe at.

[OwlsFan]

Andy Townsend has apparently done his last commentary for ITV

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/11658473/Andy-Townsend-signs-off-in-final-hail-of-abuse.html

I do find it interesting that perhaps outside of Sky, three of the leading co-commentators in the UK for many years are former Irish internationals (Beglin, Lawrensen and Townsend). What this tells us I have no idea.

[jbyrne]

a decent listen from Saturday on RTE radio 1...
http://www.rte.ie/radio1/doconone/2015/0604/705790-put-em-under-pressure/

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Andy Townsend has apparently done his last commentary for ITV

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/11658473/Andy-Townsend-signs-off-in-final-hail-of-abuse.html

I do find it interesting that perhaps outside of Sky, three of the leading co-commentators in the UK for many years are former Irish internationals (Beglin, Lawrensen and Townsend). What this tells us I have no idea.

We have the gift of the gab.

[tetsujin1979]

Andy Townsend has apparently done his last commentary for ITV

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/11658473/Andy-Townsend-signs-off-in-final-hail-of-abuse.html

I do find it interesting that perhaps outside of Sky, three of the leading co-commentators in the UK for many years are former Irish internationals (Beglin, Lawrensen and Townsend). What this tells us I have no idea.

Wasn't his contract expiring and he had been told he wasn't being kept on anyway? ITV basically have nothing next season except England internationals, so they've had to shed people from their sports department. The Champions League rights have gone to BT Sport and BBC have the FA Cup

[seanfhear]

Andy Townsend has apparently done his last commentary for ITV

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/11658473/Andy-Townsend-signs-off-in-final-hail-of-abuse.html

I do find it interesting that perhaps outside of Sky, three of the leading co-commentators in the UK for many years are former Irish internationals (Beglin, Lawrensen and Townsend). What this tells us I have no idea.It will be interesting to see if some other tv network pick him up.

[DeLorean]

Giles out, Sadlier in (http://www.balls.ie/football/theres-set-to-be-a-momentous-change-to-the-rte-panel-for-the-scotland-game/296261)

[nigel-harps1954]

Controversial, but definitely the right decision. Time they phased out the old guard. They've served their time and are completely out of touch with the modern game.