Election 2011 - General

[mypost]

There's been so much said that I don't agree with here. I'm a public servant for starters.
Pension related deduction (aka pension levy): We will never ever see any benefit from this. This will never ever go to our pensions. It amounts to a pay-cut. Also remember we have a received a pay-cut as well. So we've been screwed across the board.
Bonus payments made to director-of-services were not subjected to a cut last year as they were perceived to have had a reasonable expectation. Just like us lower paid? W@nkers.
I keep suggesting ways to make our jobs easier and therefore efficient and which will save a lot of money over time but they constantly get shouted down because "that's not how we've always done it"!

I'm completely for slashing social welfare allowances. They are far too high and they are routinely scamming.

The other thing that annoys me about our system is the value of JSA and JSB. How someone who has worked all their lives and loses their job is entitled to €196 pw on JSB and someone who has never worked a day in their lives is also entitled to the same amount on JSA I'll never understand.

And the other thing that annoys me is how those with guaranteed jobs kick the many that don't.

New claimants this year under-25, were taxed 25 -50% of their JB before they brought in the P45, had to endure weeks of waiting to be processed, and had to live on 102-150 a week. Not only that, they had a humiliating walk to the post office every week to go and collect it, next month they'll have to queue up amongst those who are sending expensive Christmas gifts to America and Australia, while they barely have enough to buy food. Utter humiliation. Like all JA/JB applicants, they face another tax kick in 4 weeks time. But you have a job, have something to go to every morning, and have enough time to come on here and mock them. If you lost your job, you'd learn very quick the value of what exactly 102-196 Euro a week is, and how hard it is to pay everything out of it. But you're a public servant, a job and income relatively protected by the state, so you don't have to worry about such issues.

450,000 people do.

[BonnieShels]

And the other thing that annoys me is how those with guaranteed jobs kick the many that don't.

New claimants this year under-25, were taxed 25 -50% of their JB before they brought in the P45, had to endure weeks of waiting to be processed, and had to live on 102-150 a week. Not only that, they had a humiliating walk to the post office every week to go and collect it, next month they'll have to queue up amongst those who are sending expensive Christmas gifts to America and Australia, while they barely have enough to buy food. Utter humiliation. Like all JA/JB applicants, they face another tax kick in 4 weeks time. But you have a job, have something to go to every morning, and have enough time to come on here and mock them. If you lost your job, you'd learn very quick the value of what exactly 102-196 Euro a week is, and how hard it is to pay everything out of it. But you're a public servant, a job and income relatively protected by the state, so you don't have to worry about such issues.

450,000 people do.

That was quick. Let me refute most of that typical bull that's directed at public servants.
Read what I actually said. I am all for the absolute destruction of the public service as it stands because it just doesn't work. I spend most of my day banging my head against the wall trying to help out people on welfare, trying to help people who are in debt and trying to help those who need someone to talk to. I try to do all of that within the constraints of the insane public service system. It's only when you're inside that you actually realise just how corrupt and inefficient and downright pointless most of it is.

I work with a lot of very well paid and useless people, people we could well do with out but it is up to management to sort that out, but there's no will to do it.
My job is not guaranteed and technically no-one's is in the public service, unfortunately the unions have management and the govt by the short and curlies.

I do what's more than what's expected of me and as long as I do that why should I not consider my job safe?

My comments about SW had to do with the equality in the system. I have the utmost sympathy for anyone on JB right now. My sister recently lost her job so I know all about it. I was on JB back in 2006 as well so I'm aware of the humiliation of getting grilled by SW staff about my entitlements, though I got my money paid into my bank account. The most humiliating part is queuing to sign on to be honest.

The thing that I was commenting on was that the system is a crock and needs to be changed.

I'm unaware of this so-called 25-50% tax you speak of that for claimants of JB who didn't have their P45s.

The system for signing on after losing your job is fairly simple... fill out the form and bring your P45 (or a letter from your employer if you can't access your P45 straight away which happens). If you don't got those details then you don't get JB. Then you apply for JA. JA is reduced for under 25s as they have generally no economic need. Tell me that an 18yo needs 196.00 pw? They should be working and if not in school/college or on FAS.

If you bring in all your documents to SW it can be processed fairly quickly. My sister had hers in a week and a half. If you have to wait any longer you can go to your local CWO who will give you SWA to tide you over. JB is not reduced for anyone no matter what age provided they have enough credits/stamps paid in the previous full tax year.

I have sympathy for a broad majority of the 450,000 you quote but as for the long term unemployed who have been mooching and coudl never be bothered to get a job over the years. Screw em!

Also, I have enough time to.come on here because I'm on holidays.

[mypost]

It's only when you're inside that you actually realise just how corrupt and inefficient and downright pointless most of it is. My job is not guaranteed and technically no-one's is in the public service
I do what's more than what's expected of me and as long as I do that why should I not consider my job safe?

You are inside, and that's more preferable than being on the outside. The job is as guaranteed as it gets. The country has business to get on with, and that business has to be done by public servants. There's always a job for them to do.


I have the utmost sympathy for anyone on JB right now. My sister recently lost her job so I know all about it. The thing that I was commenting on was that the system is a crock and needs to be changed.

I'm unaware of this so-called 25-50% tax you speak of that for claimants of JB who didn't have their P45s.

Your sister knows all about it. You have a job to go to each day, an income to collect every week, and able to spend it as you see fit. The system has been changed. The full rate was 196 a week, it's now that for fewer people. The lesser amount they get is the "tax" compared to those who have the full amount, which in itself is 8 Euro a week down on last year.


fill out the form and bring your P45 (or a letter from your employer if you can't access your P45 straight away which happens). If you don't got those details then you don't get JB. Then you apply for JA. JA is reduced for under 25s as they have generally no economic need. Tell me that an 18yo needs 196.00 pw? They should be working and if not in school/college or on FAS.

Another mass generalisation. Working in what? There's no jobs, either private or public. It's not simple to go to third level while Fas courses are oversubscribed.

And it all takes "a week" does it? By the time all the documentation required is produced, it can be up to 6 weeks before a JB application is processed and payment is authorised. JA can in some places take 3-5 months, before the relevant documentation is produced, and the application means-tested, before it's processed and payment is authorised.


If you have to wait any longer you can go to your local CWO who will give you SWA to tide you over. I have sympathy for a broad majority of the 450,000 you quote but as for the long term unemployed who have been mooching and coudl never be bothered to get a job over the years. Screw em!

You can, if you're prepared to put up with more humiliation, on top of what you've already put up with. 2 years ago, we had 220,000 people on the dole, it's now double that. Most of them have no job through no fault of their own. They're long term unemployed now as there are no jobs in the country. Public sector workers have worked in the same profession for 40 years without worry of losing their job, and with the full backing of their powerful unions to support their cause. They have the life of riley in comparison.

I've had this debate here before with other posters and I'll probably have it again in the future. But if anyone here attempts to kick the "unemployed dole-scroungers" as O'Leary called them last year, I'll be standing up to them, as long as Ireland's economy remains as is.

[dahamsta]

Getting rid of tenure - properly - would be a good first step towards fixing the public service. It's nonsense, plain and simple.

[Macy]

Getting rid of tenure - properly - would be a good first step towards fixing the public service. It's nonsense, plain and simple.
I don't believe it exists to the degree that people think it does. If proper procedures are followed then people can and are sacked. If it is harder, there is a reason for that, as I've pointed out many times on here before - to stop political sackings because people wouldn't be corrupted.

And believe me, I know of cases where this has happened with Ministers looking for short cuts over basic standards to help cronies, and have tried to screw up the career of people doing their job. The labour court found 100% in favour of the staff member (extremely rare), who was reinstated after basically being white walled. Without that added protection he'd have won in the employment appeals tribunal, but would've lost his job for insisting on doing his job.

Contrary to most opinions by even public servants here, most people I know genuinely work hard and do their best. I don't see any more laziness in the public sector than when I was in the private sector.

[dahamsta]

It must be different sectors Macy, because I have family in public service and they think it should be knocked on the head, because of their personal experience of people who do absolutely no work. (In some cases they can't work because of bureacracy, but that's not always they case. And it shouldn't be like that anyway.) And my wife spends a good bit of time in those circles and she's all for it too because of the waste, and just plain laziness, that she often sees. She also works with academics, and agrees with me on the abolition of tenure there too.

I'm not arguing with you and I do believe you, but I don't think you're right across the board. The HSE is the best example out there, it's criminally overemployed. They're addressing that now to a certain extent, but it seems very up in the air what'll actually happen; who'll actually go? I'll be very surprised if there aren't plenty of useless middle managers left after the purge, clacking away at nothing on their computers, pretending they're not spending half their days on Facebook.

Locking down the web browsers would be a good start. The bandwidth saved on Facebook alone would probably save the country a few quid. But then you'd have to remove solitaire from the comps too. Back to the mainframe I say, and I'm not kidding when I say it!

EDIT: I should add, I don't believe that canning tenure is the be-all and end-all solution, and I don't want to see half the public service kicked out on their ear. A huge number of public servants could and should be reassigned to places where they'll have to work, but managers are unable to because of the golden contracts. This needs to be fixed urgently too.

adam

[mypost]

Gilmore on the Late Late last night, complaining about the public sector. An excellent opportunity to say what the audience want to hear, and probably another boost in the polls.

[Macy]

Locking down the web browsers would be a good start. The bandwidth saved on Facebook alone would probably save the country a few quid. But then you'd have to remove solitaire from the comps too. Back to the mainframe I say, and I'm not kidding when I say it!
I'd be very surprised if facebook and the likes aren't locked down already.


EDIT: I should add, I don't believe that canning tenure is the be-all and end-all solution, and I don't want to see half the public service kicked out on their ear. A huge number of public servants could and should be reassigned to places where they'll have to work, but managers are unable to because of the golden contracts. This needs to be fixed urgently too.
There's already an agreement that puts this in place. However, is there the political will to make it happen? I personally believe that the Government is trying to bring it down and take the easy option of straight pay cuts and avoid the genuine hard decisions on reorganisation.

Just because the existing procedures aren't used, doesn't mean that they aren't there.

[culloty82]

Adams (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-11751856) wants to replace Morgan in Louth - anytime he's done an RTE election debate, he's looked out of his depth, so not convinced about this venture.

[BonnieShels]

Do you ever read what people write or do you make assumptions in all cases?

You make compelling arguments sometimes but the ones you made here don't actually correlate with what I wrote.


mypost: You are inside, and that's more preferable than being on the outside. The job is as guaranteed as it gets. The country has business to get on with, and that business has to be done by public servants. There's always a job for them to do.

The business I get on with is barely done and it should not take so long to do what I have to do everyday. I am sure you can peruse the rest of the public sector and see the same thing. My point is that I want the whole thing torn down and started again. My job could be easily subsumed into a more efficient organisation. But that's another eras work.


Your sister knows all about it. You have a job to go to each day, an income to collect every week, and able to spend it as you see fit. The system has been changed. The full rate was 196 a week, it's now that for fewer people. The lesser amount they get is the "tax" compared to those who have the full amount, which in itself is 8 Euro a week down on last year.

Again stop mentioning tax in relation to JA and JB and stop using JA and JB as synonyms as they are different payments for different albeit similar circumstances, I have outlined this to you several times and you seem to have some grasp of the system so stop fudging the issue.
The full rate of JB for 2010 is 196.00 unless you haven't got enough stamps in the previous applicable tax year and then it is reduced as part of a scale. It has ALWAYS been like this. FOREVER.
JA however is a different story. JA at the full rate is 196.00 and is not dependent on your stamps but is means tested. Though in practice it is virtually always paid at the full rate. Different rates exist for different age groups and this was introduced as part of the last budget. The full rate for someone 18-21 yoa claiming JA is 100.00 pw. For those 22-25 yoa it is 150.00. These rates only applied to NEW applicants from January 2010 so it's not as far reaching as you like to make out.
The basic rate for 2009 was 204.30 introduced in Budget 2009 Part I in December 2008. This was an increase of 6.50 pw from the 2008 rate.
How this was ever acceptable to increase on foot of what had occurred in September 2008 and the increasing unemployment that was everywhere at the time I never understood. The reduction to 196.00 was a correction. The reduction of the U25 rates was also a timely measure to fit in with the new reality of the Exchequer and the increasing amount of "stampless" U25's in society.


Another mass generalisation. Working in what? There's no jobs, either private or public. It's not simple to go to third level while Fas courses are oversubscribed.
This is an example of you not getting what's going on.
The fact that FÁS courses are oversubscibed is saying to me that they need more money. I admit that giving FÁS any money is dangerous but let's overlook it's crapness for the moment. Also if you do the maths here would it not be more sensible to spend each of those 196.00 per weeks to people of college going age and place it directly into the 2.5 and 3rd level sector in order to make these people employable in the future.
My brother completed his leaving cert in June and didn't get the course he wanted so has decided to do a part-time course in psychology and go to work... He has never had a job before and managed to bag himself a job.
So you still telling me there's no work out there? My brother with possibly the worst CV I've ever seen managed to get work. There is work out there for anyone who wants it but you have to go look for it. Tough I know with those 40 hour dole weeks that some people have to do it's tough finding time to job search.


And it all takes "a week" does it? By the time all the documentation required is produced, it can be up to 6 weeks before a JB application is processed and payment is authorised. JA can in some places take 3-5 months, before the relevant documentation is produced, and the application means-tested, before it's processed and payment is authorised.

Yes it does but you still seem to me to be getting confused with JA and JB yet again.
My sister went to the SWLO on the Tuesday after she finished work. She brought with her all appropriate documentation to make her JB claim. She had her payment slip in the post the next Tuesday morning detailing her payment she would receive the Thursday afterwards.
When you get JB you are informed for how long you will get it for. It's usually around the 11 month mark. Nearing the end of your claim and presuming you haven't gone back to work in the mean time you should go to your SWLO well in time and make your claim for JA. This of course takes longer as it is means tested. If you decide at the last minute to go and sort your claim then why should you get up in arms about it taking so long and you having no money. You are informed of EVERYTHING you should be prepared. It can take 3-5 months in extreme cases and I actually know of one incident where this happened but that was as a result of SW banging their head of the wall repeatedly asking for documentation. It doesn't take 3-5 months for the craic. If it is taking this long there is always a reason for it. And very often it is the claimants' fault. Like I said before there is SWA available for these extreme cases. A CWO can approve instantly.


You can, if you're prepared to put up with more humiliation, on top of what you've already put up with. 2 years ago, we had 220,000 people on the dole, it's now double that. Most of them have no job through no fault of their own. They're long term unemployed now as there are no jobs in the country. Public sector workers have worked in the same profession for 40 years without worry of losing their job, and with the full backing of their powerful unions to support their cause. They have the life of riley in comparison.

You would swear that people point and laugh when they go to the SW? Just because you go to the SW office first thing in the morning means that yes you are going to be queuing. If you have a problem with this then go at another time. This is the system we have in place. And trust me there is a lot of people out there on SW that have absolutely no problem and love state handouts and would queue up for all their ENP's to get their new TVs and cookers.

Like I said so many times before I work with these people and they should be out on their ear. There is nothing in essence wrong with unions however in this country they make everything a difficult. I'm no longer a member of Impact as I completely disagreed with the strike last year and with the CPA. Every union I have been part of be it Mandate, IBOA, ESBOA or Impact have been useless in protecting the newer members of their organisations and are only interested in keeping the higher paid happy. Check out what the PSEU managed with the minister for finance last year re bonuses.


I've had this debate here before with other posters and I'll probably have it again in the future. But if anyone here attempts to kick the "unemployed dole-scroungers" as O'Leary called them last year, I'll be standing up to them, as long as Ireland's economy remains as is.

Again I don't remember calling anyone a scrounger. There are a lot of scroungers out there and they have no sympathy from me. I would be completely supportive of an increase in JB and a progressive decrease in JA. this is what it should be like. Like I said before what is demoralising is contributing to the PRSI fund for your whole working life and then when you lose your job you only get what John B Lazyhole get's on JA and he hasn't done a tap since leaving school in 1986. Screw him. He should get nothing and made to dance for his money.

Anyone who has lost their job I will always stand by. Those I can't abide are those who contribute nothing to this country. Despite what you may like to think they are out there in their droves.

[passinginterest]

Any chance we could just let BonnieShels run the country? :)

[total hoofball]

My brother completed his leaving cert in June and didn't get the course he wanted so has decided to do a part-time course in psychology and go to work... He has never had a job before and managed to bag himself a job.
So you still telling me there's no work out there? My brother with possibly the worst CV I've ever seen managed to get work. There is work out there for anyone who wants it but you have to go look for it. Tough I know with those 40 hour dole weeks that some people have to do it's tough finding time to job search.

ARRRGGHHHHH.

I was unemployed for 12 months in 09/10 and applied for 150+ jobs, only got 4 interviews and no job. Overqualified for all the menial jobs as I had a degree and inexperienced for all jobs in my field because I had less than years f/t work experience.

But sure it's all so easy because my brother got a job.... you haven't got a scooby doo buddy. 500,000+ unemployed people competing for a supply of 1% of vacancies disagree with you.

[total hoofball]

Again I don't remember calling anyone a scrounger. There are a lot of scroungers out there and they have no sympathy from me. I would be completely supportive of an increase in JB and a progressive decrease in JA. this is what it should be like. Like I said before what is demoralising is contributing to the PRSI fund for your whole working life and then when you lose your job you only get what John B Lazyhole get's on JA and he hasn't done a tap since leaving school in 1986. Screw him. He should get nothing and made to dance for his money.


Why did you in your first post on SW IMMEDIATELY go on a mythical rant about how they're all sponging and how generous SW benefits are? Sounded like a labelling to me.

If SW sponging is such a drastic problem in this country why then did we have a full employment only 3 years ago? Not denying there was a small element not bothered to work but 90%+ of people on unemployment benefits do not want to be on them.

Also progressively reducing JSA would have been a great idea when there were jobs in this country but now that's impossible as long-term unemployment is gathering pace to a shocking 50%.

[BonnieShels]

Any chance we could just let BonnieShels run the country? :)

Gladly.

I am not at all talking about the likes of yourself at all at all. Calm toi.


Why did you in your first post on SW IMMEDIATELY go on a mythical rant about how they're all sponging and how generous SW benefits are? Sounded like a labelling to me.

It wasn't a mythical rant. It was based on the factuality of my day-to-day business in work.



If SW sponging is such a drastic problem in this country why then did we have a full employment only 3 years ago? Not denying there was a small element not bothered to work but 90%+ of people on unemployment benefits do not want to be on them.
Again the whole full employment argument never allowed anyone to see the thousands of people out working and claiming OPFP, BTWA, BTWEA and FIS!

I would almost happily wager a bet of silver crowns that that 90% is almost certainly less. How we would ever prove it either way I dunno.



Also progressively reducing JSA would have been a great idea when there were jobs in this country but now that's impossible as long-term unemployment is gathering pace to a shocking 50%.Is that not even a bigger argument for a complete overhaul of the system?

[Lim till i die]

GENERAL POINTS! NOTHING ABOUT BONNIESHELS. MY BAD. MEANT TO SAY AT START OF POST AS HADN'T BOTHERED READING WHOLE THREAD. WROTE DURING FM2011 LEAGUE CUP QUARTER FINAL. BEAT SLIGO 4-0. HERE COME THE GOOD TIMES.



JA however is a different story. JA at the full rate is 196.00 and is not dependent on your stamps but is means tested. Though in practice it is virtually always paid at the full rate.

I find that hard to believe.


The reduction of the U25 rates was also a timely measure to fit in with the new reality of the Exchequer and the increasing amount of "stampless" U25's in society.

It was scandalous regressive, nonsense.


I admit that giving FÁS any money is dangerous but let's overlook it's crapness for the moment. Also if you do the maths here would it not be more sensible to spend each of those 196.00 per weeks to people of college going age and place it directly into the 2.5 and 3rd level sector in order to make these people employable in the future.

FAS told me to shag off not once, not twice, but thrice! And why?? Because I'm over qualified?? I'm confused as to whether or not this makes me a scrounger though??


My brother completed his leaving cert in June and didn't get the course he wanted so has decided to do a part-time course in psychology and go to work... He has never had a job before and managed to bag himself a job.
So you still telling me there's no work out there? My brother with possibly the worst CV I've ever seen managed to get work. There is work out there for anyone who wants it but you have to go look for it.

What are your brothers circumstances, living expenses, etc, etc?? "My brother got a job therefore there are suitable jobs for everyone" is a pretty giant leap there buddy.


And trust me there is a lot of people out there on SW that have absolutely no problem and love state handouts and would queue up for all their ENP's to get their new TVs and cookers.

I don't trust you. I've been saving up for about two years to get a new telly, just a little 19 inch portable hd one to play my Playstation 3 on. (I bought the Playstation 3 when I was working in Dell, before it shut down, plunging the city into ruin, I can assure you I didn't sponge it) Now if I am to trust you, will you please tell me what I'm doing wrong as I really want the telly?? Ta


There are a lot of scroungers out there and they have no sympathy from me. I would be completely supportive of an increase in JB and a progressive decrease in JA. this is what it should be like.

So I can go swing because the country went down the $hitter after I got my honours degree but before I had enough stamps??


John B Lazyhole get's on JA and he hasn't done a tap since leaving school in 1986.

Arab Terrorist.
Covetus Jew.
Brainy Asian.

We're listing stereotypes here right??


Those I can't abide are those who contribute nothing to this country. Despite what you may like to think they are out there in their droves

They are very much in a minority and their existence is in large part the fault of the state, not of the hundreds of thousands of others who find themselves caught up in the current situation, which is of course also at least partially the fault of the state.

[peadar1987]

I'm in the same situation. I have a masters in mechanical engineering, and there's no work here for me, because I have no work experience, and the sector is tiny here anyway. I've applied for between 50 and 60 jobs in the last two months, and been rejected for all of them. I've been told I'm overqualified for most unskilled jobs, and that employers aren't looking for someone who's going to feck off as soon as they get a better offer. Plenty of my friends are in the same boat. Not everyone who is forced to claim social welfare is a scrounger.

[BonnieShels]

I find that hard to believe. Keep finding it hard to believe. It's true in my area with the approx 4000-6000 people I have to deal with on an annual basis. If it's different in Limerick then so be it. I can only comment on what I deal with day-to-day and that's the case.




It was scandalous regressive, nonsense.On what basis? You made a statement back it up man.


FAS told me to shag off not once, not twice, but thrice! And why?? Because I'm over qualified?? I'm confused as to whether or not this makes me a scrounger though??Do you go out of your way trying to be offended? How can anyone seriously glean from what I wrote that someone who was in college is a scrounger. Or they are a scrounger because they lost their job. Read what's written. Understand it. then reply. Reactive nonsense make you look silly. You will also find that if you read what I wrote which was "giving FÁS money is dangerous. But let's ignore it's crapness for a second." I also advocated putting more money into education rather than needlessly wasting it on across the board welfare payments which don't achieve anything in the long-term.


My brother with possibly the worst CV I've ever seen managed to get work. There is work out there for anyone who wants it but you have to go look for it.
What are your brothers circumstances, living expenses, etc, etc?? "My brother got a job therefore there are suitable jobs for everyone" is a pretty giant leap there buddy.You're the one who took that giant leap. All of my comments pertaining were clearly relating to the uselessness of the argument that the reduction of JA was regressive. There are jobs there for certain sections of society alright. If not then those younger members should be productive in school/college rather than lying in bed til 2pm and getting paid to do so by the state.
Don't search for it's relevance to you.



I don't trust you. I've been saving up for about two years to get a new telly, just a little 19 inch portable hd one to play my Playstation 3 on. (I bought the Playstation 3 when I was working in Dell, before it shut down, plunging the city into ruin, I can assure you I didn't sponge it) Now if I am to trust you, will you please tell me what I'm doing wrong as I really want the telly?? TaClearly your CWO is not as awesome as the one here. I had a client complain to me that the TV she got from the CWO was too small. I nearly vomited.



So I can go swing because the country went down the $hitter after I got my honours degree but before I had enough stamps??How can you equate with what I said to a graduate? For god sake man. Stop being so easily offended



Arab Terrorist.
Covetus Jew.
Brainy Asian.

We're listing stereotypes here right??No we were making a point about the fairness of society. You chose to ignore that.



They are very much in a minority and their existence is in large part the fault of the state, not of the hundreds of thousands of others who find themselves caught up in the current situation, which is of course also at least partially the fault of the state.Which is what I have advocated a complete change and restructuring of the systems of the state.


I'm in the same situation. I have a masters in mechanical engineering, and there's no work here for me, because I have no work experience, and the sector is tiny here anyway. I've applied for between 50 and 60 jobs in the last two months, and been rejected for all of them. I've been told I'm overqualified for most unskilled jobs, and that employers aren't looking for someone who's going to feck off as soon as they get a better offer. Plenty of my friends are in the same boat. Not everyone who is forced to claim social welfare is a scrounger.

Never said they were... LTID and TH assumed I did.

[Lim till i die]

Keep finding it hard to believe. It's true in my area with the approx 4000-6000 people I have to deal with on an annual basis. If it's different in Limerick then so be it. I can only comment on what I deal with day-to-day and that's the case.

Don't be such a child. I was only going by my own personal/family experience, you have more experience than me. Fair enough, I bow to your greater knowledge.


On what basis? You made a statement back it up man.

I think somebodys circumstance should be more relevant than their age when calculating what they're entitled to.


Do you go out of your way trying to be offended?

By the internetz?? LULZ.


How can anyone seriously glean from what I wrote that someone who was in college is a scrounger. Or they are a scrounger because they lost their job.

The overall jist of my post is responding to an attitude in a lot of society rather than to you personally, apologies for not making it clear.


Read what's written. Understand it. then reply. Reactive nonsense make you look silly.

And writing like this makes you look like a complete tit.


You will also find that if you read what I wrote which was "giving FÁS money is dangerous. But let's ignore it's crapness for a second."

You read my post realised I had an honours degree, then probably realised that I could read, so again you could have made the leap that I was speaking in more general terms than just in response to you.

I apologise for not making that clearer once again, your post was just handy because it had some stuff in it I wanted to riff on.


I also advocated putting more money into education rather than needlessly wasting it on across the board welfare payments which don't achieve anything in the long-term.

Fairly Nuff.


You're the one who took that giant leap. All of my comments pertaining were clearly relating to the uselessness of the argument that the reduction of JA was regressive.

I don't see how it's fair to someone like me or paedar though??


There are jobs there for certain sections of society alright.

Where?? I genuinely don't seem them in Limerick.


Clearly your CWO is not as awesome as the one here.

My CWO is an ignorant, talentless, idiot who to quote another talentless idiot, has just enough education to perform. Having said that, pride would prevent me from tapping the state for a flipping television!!


How can you equate with what I said to a graduate? For god sake man.

Wasn't talking to you specifically, again general points blah blah.

This is why i rarely post in current affairs, I have to pay too much attention!


Stop being so easily offended

By words on a screen?? Hasn't happened me in years thankfully.

I'll edit my original post. Meh.

[bennocelt]

My brother completed his leaving cert in June and didn't get the course he wanted so has decided to do a part-time course in psychology and go to work... He has never had a job before and managed to bag himself a job.
So you still telling me there's no work out there? My brother with possibly the worst CV I've ever seen managed to get work. There is work out there for anyone who wants it but you have to go look for it. Tough I know with those 40 hour dole weeks that some people have to do it's tough finding time to job search.



I agree with a lot of what you say but there is actually feck all work out there. We dont all want to work in KFc and the like
500,000 unemployed and all that emigrated would prove this

Also FAS are a joke, has anybody really ever got a decent job out of them?

[osarusan]

I agree with some of what you say BonnieShels, but the implication of this comment


There is work out there for anyone who wants it but you have to go look for it.
is that there are enough jobs out there for everybody (400,000 jobs? My quick search of FAS (which may be wrong) shows 3663 jobs) and that anybody who doesn't have a job is in that situation by choice. That is clearly preposterous, and pretty insulting to people who are looking for work but can't find any.

[mypost]

The business I get on with is barely done and it should not take so long to do what I have to do everyday. I am sure you can peruse the rest of the public sector and see the same thing. My point is that I want the whole thing torn down and started again. My job could be easily subsumed into a more efficient organisation.

It takes so long because of your system. When someone makes a claim, you expect to bring in a P45, but is there a real need for birth certs, bank statements and parents notes, before a claim is processed? That's the crap that holds things up, the constant demand for more and more documentation to state the obvious.


Again stop mentioning tax in relation to JA and JB

No. I also call it a 'fine' as that's what it is. Those on the full rate of JA and JB are fined 8 Euro compared to the same week last year.


JA however is a different story. JA at the full rate is 196.00 and is not dependent on your stamps but is means tested. Though in practice it is virtually always paid at the full rate. Different rates exist for different age groups and this was introduced as part of the last budget. The full rate for someone 18-21 yoa claiming JA is 100.00 pw. For those 22-25 yoa it is 150.00. These rates only applied to NEW applicants from January 2010 so it's not as far reaching as you like to make out.

That's what I meant.


The reduction to 196.00 was a correction. The reduction of the U25 rates was also a timely measure to fit in with the new reality of the Exchequer.

You call it a 'correction', I have other names for it, some of which I've already stated. They're the more polite ones.


The fact that FÁS courses are oversubscibed is saying to me that they need more money.

Fas don't need more money, they need to create more places. But doing their courses are more or less pointless if there is no job at the end of it, and the training effectively down the drain, by the time a job eventually does become available.


So you still telling me there's no work out there? My brother with possibly the worst CV I've ever seen managed to get work. There is work out there for anyone who wants it but you have to go look for it. Tough I know with those 40 hour dole weeks that some people have to do it's tough finding time to job search.

That view is outrageous, and shows how little people in work are aware of the general situation. It also goes back to my first post, where I said if you have a job, you can adjust your situation.


When you get JB you are informed for how long you will get it for. It's usually around the 11 month mark. Nearing the end of your claim and presuming you haven't gone back to work in the mean time you should go to your SWLO well in time and make your claim for JA. This of course takes longer as it is means tested. If you decide at the last minute to go and sort your claim then why should you get up in arms about it taking so long and you having no money. You are informed of EVERYTHING you should be prepared. It can take 3-5 months in extreme cases and I actually know of one incident where this happened but that was as a result of SW banging their head of the wall repeatedly asking for documentation. It doesn't take 3-5 months for the craic.

Answer handled by PM.


Those I can't abide are those who contribute nothing to this country. Despite what you may like to think they are out there in their droves.

They're not, end of story.

[culloty82]

RedC Donegal poll out today, looks like Doherty will walk it:

Doherty (Sinn Féin) 40%
O'Domhnaill (Fianna Fáil) 19%
O'Neill (Fine Gael) 15%
McBrearty (Labour) 14%

A combination of the Adams factor and the IMF?

[Mr A]

Very much doubt Adams has anything to do with it.. Doherty just has the momentum and many people will want to keep FF out.

[BonnieShels]

But just under a fifth still want them in? Wtf?
Just had the pleasure of Peter Power lying solidly for an hour on Vincent Browne. I'm apoplectic.

[mypost]

RedC Donegal poll out today, looks like Doherty will walk it:

Doherty (Sinn Féin) 40%
O'Domhnaill (Fianna Fáil) 19%
O'Neill (Fine Gael) 15%
McBrearty (Labour) 14%

No surprise as he forced the bye-election to be called. Might be a short term seat though.

[bennocelt]

But just under a fifth still want them in? Wtf?
Just had the pleasure of Peter Power lying solidly for an hour on Vincent Browne. I'm apoplectic.

Just after watching that on the web - amazing, jesus FF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BonnieShels]

How is it possible and then we had Tony Killeen still talking balls on the Last Word along with everything else that the 2 Brian's were spouting today.

As regards the SW debate that raged there a few days ago I haven't responded as I have had no computer (Android allowed me to post however :)). It wasn't a case of me ignoring it. Mypost, I will respond to your PM in due course.
Dahamsta, I'm wondering is it possible for this poll to be re run now to see exactly what people think now since the time you opened this thread?

SW DEBATE

I think in essence the sentiments that I showed are fairly general sentiments and not across the board. I did fail to accurately clear up something though.
It's regarding my jobs statements.
I wasn't intending to say that there are lots of jobs out there for all people. It was more a statement against those who feel that the dole is a lifestyle a la people like my brother.
I apologise if I was inferring that graduates such as those on here who were offended, should take menial employment etc., I wasn't. It was more of a dig at those that live off the state a la the anecdotal guy (who exists) who's been on the dole since 1986.
I didn't cop at all why I was receiving such flak.

Lim til I die, I think both of us were caught up in the heat of this inference. Apologies.

Another thing I have to say though is that the recognition of attendance in college should count as "stamps". That a person completing a Dip/Cert/degree should be considered in the system as the same as a person who has never done anything is wrong.

Mypost, re your issues with submitting documentation. This is the bane of my everyday life in work. As part of my job I have access to SW systems and I can take the information that I need from it rather than sending people away to get letters etc from SW. We are discouraged from using it as "if they want it sorted they should get off their @rses and get it themselves".
Also another incident for ye to show what we have to work with:
A guy came into me one day wondering why his application for housing had been returned to him. I checked it out and could see nothing wrong with it so I went and asked the relevant staff member. Apparently he hadn't given in his birth cert. He had given a copy of his passport as requested also. He hadn't got a copy of his birth cert available as he was English and said it would take too long to get an original and thought that he could supply it at a later date. I agreed and then went back to the staff member and I was told that his application NEEDS a birth cert and wouldn't be processed without it. I complained that as he had supplied his passport surely that could tide over the application as it should be sufficient proof that a. he was born b. that he's a British citizen. Apparently not as policy is that he NEEDS to supply the birth cert. It was urgent for him for a reason that I can't go into so I thought that we could be "lenient" in this regard. Obviously not. I lost it.

[Dodge]

For those who haven't seen it


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqx4E5tq1Bo

[BonnieShels]

Just saw it a second ago on the book of face. FFS.
How do you get skin that thick?

[Billsthoughts]

Saw the Pat Rabbitte thing last nite. Seemed he was fairly genuine in his anger.

[Mr A]

I think he articulated what most people felt. I thought there was a real chance he would punch him, and while it wouldn't have been right, I wouldn't have blamed him.

Then again, why the hell was Pat Carey on there? Where were the senior ministers?

[dahamsta]

It's Dick Roche that incenses me. I can't stand the sight of him. Has he ever told a truth?

[BonnieShels]

Pat Carey was on because Peter Power did vb on Wednesday. There seems to be a rota.
Senior ministers font do this stuff when the **** hits the fan because they make the decisions. Pat Carey. was only recently made a member of cabinet. though he would gave been present as chief whip, and therefore he can't really be blamed for the decisions.

[dahamsta]

He was a member of the parliamentary party, wasn't he? He voted alongside the government, didn't he?

That's why ANY member of FF or the Greens, or their representatives, will be told to get off my property if they call to my door in the leadup to the election. Even if they voted against the government at some point, their membership of those parties will result in nul poin on my ballot card.

[Dodge]

He was a member of the parliamentary party, wasn't he? He voted alongside the government, didn't he?

It was his job to enforce that before Curran took the role

[BonnieShels]

What I was saying was that the reason he is the one doing the rounds is because publicly he wouldn't be connected to the decisions and FF assume he wouldnt be harangued as much.

Liveline was left on after the news at one and my god FF supporters around the country are coming on and saying how could you vote FG. What difference would it make.
I'm twitching.

[Mr A]

To my mind, anyone who tells you 'they're all the same' is a closet FF person trying to justify themselves. There have been massive differences between the parties all through this crisis and to say they're the same is just lazy.

Remarkably, FF try to pull off the trick of saying FG and LAB would have done the same while at the same time claiming they'd be a bad government as they're too different to each other.

[Macy]

Has he ever told a truth?
"I'm glad you asked me that..." As bad as it is to see him on Irish TV, it's total humiliation seeing him make a tit of us on serious news programmes such as Newsnight and Channel 4 news. What little credibility we had left has gone since I would imagine.


To my mind, anyone who tells you 'they're all the same' is a closet FF person trying to justify themselves. There have been massive differences between the parties all through this crisis and to say they're the same is just lazy.

Remarkably, FF try to pull off the trick of saying FG and LAB would have done the same while at the same time claiming they'd be a bad government as they're too different to each other.
No doubt about it, heard the start of Joe DuFFy and knew the direction it was heading. Even if you believe that, then there are always options to vote for anyway - if you think FG and Labour are as bad as FF, then vote SF, Socialist or some other smaller party. There's enough options without your default option of FF because your granddad was on Dev's side in the civil feckin war.

[dahamsta]

Jesus, I've said it in the past, you can probably find me saying it here if you search, but that doesn't mean voting for the ones that are actually driving this country into the dirt is the answer. Voting for an idiot because another idiot might be as bad is just plain thick risk policy.

[Dodge]

Liveline was left on after the news at one and my god FF supporters around the country are coming on and saying how could you vote FG. What difference would it make.
I'm twitching.

I personally believe that, fiscally, there isn't much between them. I definitely could never vote FG, but then I could never vote FF either

[BonnieShels]

But there are other aspects of FG policies which I would have to say I am 100% behind, ie. political reform, health service reform and transportation reform.
I don't agree with some comments emanating from the party about certain assets being sold off. That's lunacy and I'm sure that that won't get near a manifesto with Labour in coalition with them.
But still... I can't think of anything at all at all ever why any citizen of this state should be contemplating voting for FF. the cabbage is at the ready.

[peadar1987]

But there are other aspects of FG policies which I would have to say I am 100% behind, ie. political reform, health service reform and transportation reform.
I don't agree with some comments emanating from the party about certain assets being sold off. That's lunacy and I'm sure that that won't get near a manifesto with Labour in coalition with them.
But still... I can't think of anything at all at all ever why any citizen of this state should be contemplating voting for FF. the cabbage is at the ready.



My friend is saying she'll vote for them because they made the mess, and we should make them fix it. While that might work for discouraging children from spilling the paint, I don't think giving crooked politicians a job for life is going to teach them a lesson, much less fix the country.

What did Ron Burgundy say about women's brains?! :)

[dahamsta]

Tell her how much they earn.

[MOD EDIT: General discussion split from the poll thread (http://foot.ie/threads/142190-Election-2011-Poll).]

[peadar1987]

Tell her how much they earn.


I've avoided finding out in case I'm tempted to drive a heavy construction vehicle into their place of work!

[Poor Student]

Saw the Pat Rabbitte thing last nite. Seemed he was fairly genuine in his anger.

Am I the only one who felt it smacked of being entirely premediatated? I'm tired of of watching partisan party politicians tear strips out of each other while the token non-politician on the panel offers the only substantive analysis. Like many of those who have lead us deeper into this disaster Rabitte is a career politician. I'd rather have some rationed input from the likes of David McWilliams, Morgan Kelly or Ray Kinsella than that. If a bit of righteous indignation is enough to attract our votes then no wonder we keep returning a bunch of gombeens. We need a different quality and type of individual to govern this country entirely than those who occupy the Dail on all sides.

[Dodge]

In fairness Rabbitte generally tries to remain calm enough but it looks like he simply snapped at Carey's avoidacbe tactics on Thursday night. "You can't reason with an unreasonable man...."

[dahamsta]

You only have to look at or listen to Carey to get that angry. He's a gormless d*ckhead.

[BonnieShels]

My friend is saying she'll vote for them because they made the mess, and we should make them fix it. While that might work for discouraging children from spilling the paint, I don't think giving crooked politicians a job for life is going to teach them a lesson, much less fix the country.

What did Ron Burgundy say about women's brains?! :)

Did you get the men in the white coats for her?
That's possibly the most moronic thing I've heard in a long time.
Democracy doesn't work.

[culloty82]

Did you get the men in the white coats for her?
That's possibly the most moronic thing I've heard in a long time.
Democracy doesn't work.

And last night's poll proves your point:

Fianna Fáil 17% (-1)

[Billsthoughts]

Am I the only one who felt it smacked of being entirely premediatated? I'm tired of of watching partisan party politicians tear strips out of each other while the token non-politician on the panel offers the only substantive analysis. Like many of those who have lead us deeper into this disaster Rabitte is a career politician. I'd rather have some rationed input from the likes of David McWilliams, Morgan Kelly or Ray Kinsella than that. If a bit of righteous indignation is enough to attract our votes then no wonder we keep returning a bunch of gombeens. We need a different quality and type of individual to govern this country entirely than those who occupy the Dail on all sides.
can see where you are coming from which is why i posted that it looked genuine on Rabbittes part. nothing worse than feigned indignation from the opposition who seem to have only decided in the last couple of weeks they want to be in government. however if you look at the clip it seems he just snaps.