Jamie O'Hara

[Colbert Report]

Surely it would be better to wait until the season is over before any votes are cast.

[Dodge]

Surely it would be better to wait until the season is over before any votes are cast.

Better not to get worked up about it tbh. Players wouldn't be around for off season but writers culd all vte by e-mail now

[Junior]

O'Hara doesnt sit easy with me.

1) Hunch says he doesnt feel "English AND Irish" at all. Its more that FIFA say he is elegible for both - There is a big difference.
2) Perhaps Im being blinkered and ideolistic but I want our 2g or 3g players to be a Kilbane or a Breen or a McGeady or McCarthy who show nothing but 100% commitment to the green shirt, the same way the 2g and 3g fans do on the terraces.
3) Whether he makes our squad better or our chances of qualifying greater has no relevence for me
4) Yes - Ill admit it, pictures of him with the three lions definitely taint his image, something I would never be able to get out of my head.

Im sure if he was playing in the Green I would forget about all these issues as you do in a game - Id just rather he stuck to his first choice and we let him be.

[DannyInvincible]

Is it just the fact that his first choice appears to be England in particular that is supposedly tainting his worth to Ireland, or would it matter what country he was born in? Would people exhibit a similar unease with a player like Barry Maguire declaring for us after having already rejected a call-up to our youth side or would his particular "national make-up" be much more palatable that he'd be welcomed into the squad without question?

[Adrock]

Is it just the fact that his first choice appears to be England in particular that is supposedly tainting his worth to Ireland, or would it matter what country he was born in? Would people exhibit a similar unease with a player like Barry Maguire declaring for us after having already rejected a call-up to our youth side or would his particular "national make-up" be much more palatable that he'd be welcomed into the squad without question?

Just xenophobic isn't it not wanting foreigners in your national football team.:rolleyes:
I for one don't have anything against English at all and don't know anyone that does, except these 2G and 3G Micks carrying some ancestral chip on their shoulder. I'd just prefer not to have them in the Ireland football team, same as I'd rather not have any Dutch, German, Brazilian, Angolan or Cambodian players for example. Doesn't mean I have anything against these nationalities, but this is international football, not club football so its not exactly appropriate is it.:confused:

The fact is the whole granny rule thing is a loophole that's been exploited by the FAI for so long, its basically came to define our national team. The new FIFA regulations allowing us to cap players who've represented England as their team of choice already just makes it more hard to swallow. I dont buy this whole argument about 'well we're a small country so we've got to look as wide as possible for eligible players'. Look at other countires with small populations like Denmark, Croatia, Norway, Slovakia, Slovenia. How many of their squad do you think were born and raised in another country? Outside the British Isles there's probably about four players in the whole of Europe who qualify through a grandparent, yet you look at our youth squad for instance and maybe half of them only qualify on that basis. Doesn't give you much national pride.......

[DannyInvincible]

Just xenophobic isn't it not wanting foreigners in your national football team.:rolleyes:

I sense your sarcasm but, as Charlie Darwin pointed out, it would appear that some people see it as an issue of contention that Steve Finnan might consider himself remotely English as well as Irish, as if the English adage would bring with it some form of stigma. I'm not accusing you of xenophobia. You've justified your conviction perfectly well, although I would disagree with your description of the "granny rule" as a "loophole". It's long been an accepted part of FIFA's rules. There's nothing "loophole" about it and it's not as if the FAI are the only ones "exploiting" it, although I think legitimately utilising it would be a more accurate description under current circumstances.

I don't think it has come to define our national team. That's proven to be a myth in recent years, and one that originates in anti-Irishness and insecure self-loathing anyway. Maybe we should have a look at our own national insecurities and elitist/purist posturing before accusing others of being "plastic". Who are we to tell them if they're "Irish enough" or not?

If those countries you mention had histories of mass emigration like Ireland and a significant diaspora to match with such a proudly-preserved and inherited national consciousness, maybe your point would stand?* We should be proud that we have a diaspora that is similarly proud in return and strives to maintain such a strong bond with us. It's something we should cherish as a nation and, to be honest, this casual, smug condescension and throwing about of slurs like "plastic Paddy" from some sort of "mantlepiece of true Irishness" somewhat disgusts me. I would argue that looking at the experience of former colonies such as Algeria is more apt as their situation is more analogous to our one. I'm sure they're very proud as a nation to have qualified for the World Cup, albeit with a squad significantly made up of French-born Algerians.

*As an aside, doesn't Eduardo, a born-and-bred Brazilian, play for Croatia through naturalisation despite having no ancestral link to the place at all?

[SkStu]

on Eduardo, yes - naturalised through residency.

[third policeman]

I sense your sarcasm but, as Charlie Darwin pointed out, it would appear that some people see it as an issue of contention that Steve Finnan might consider himself remotely English as well as Irish, as if the English adage would bring with it some form of stigma. I'm not accusing you of xenophobia. You've justified your conviction perfectly well, although I would disagree with your description of the "granny rule" as a "loophole". It's long been an accepted part of FIFA's rules. There's nothing "loophole" about it and it's not as if the FAI are the only ones "exploiting" it, although I think legitimately utilising it would be a more accurate description under current circumstances.

I don't think it has come to define our national team. That's proven to be a myth in recent years, and one that originates in anti-Irishness and insecure self-loathing anyway. Maybe we should have a look at our own national insecurities and elitist/purist posturing before accusing others of being "plastic". Who are we to tell them if they're "Irish enough" or not?

If those countries you mention had histories of mass emigration like Ireland and a significant diaspora to match with such a proudly-preserved and inherited national consciousness, maybe your point would stand?* We should be proud that we have a diaspora that is similarly proud in return and strives to maintain such a strong bond with us. It's something we should cherish as a nation and, to be honest, this casual, smug condescension and throwing about of slurs like "plastic Paddy" from some sort of "mantlepiece of true Irishness" somewhat disgusts me. I would argue that looking at the experience of former colonies such as Algeria is more apt as their situation is more analogous to our one. I'm sure they're very proud as a nation to have qualified for the World Cup, albeit with a squad significantly made up of French-born Algerians.

*As an aside, doesn't Eduardo, a born-and-bred Brazilian, play for Croatia through naturalisation despite having no ancestral link to the place at all?

Top, top post. To quote Wilde to Whistler, "I wish I'd said that." It's interesting living in the UK how the 2nd G myth is still perpetrated, even at a time when the English cricket team is populated by South African rejects and the odd Irishman.

[davey]

Fantastic post :clover:

[TrapAPony]

Below is a list of foreign born players who were named in their national squads for Euro 2008.

Croatia
Josip Šimunić - Australia
Robert Kovač - Germany
Niko Kovač - Germany
Ivan Klasnić - Germany
Ivan Rakitić - Switzerland
Vedran Ćorluka - Bosnia
Mladen Petrić - Bosnia
Eduardo was injured- Brazil

France
Jean-Alain Boumsong - Cameroon
Florent Malouda - French Guiana
Lilian Thuram - Guadeloupe
Steve Mandanda - DR Congo
Claude Mak�l�l� - DR Congo
Patrice Evra - Senegal
Patrick Vieira - Senegal

Germany
Kevin Kur�nyi - Brazil
Miroslav Klose - Poland
Piotr Trochowski - Poland
Lukas Podolski - Poland
Oliver Neuville - Switzerland

Also there now:
Cacau - Brazil
Jerome Boateng - Ghanaian/German (Uncle played for Ghana & brother Kevin-Prince Boateng of Portsmouth is about to switch to Ghana despite playing 6 U-21 games for Germany. Ghana & Germany are in the same World Cup group.)
Mesut �zil - Turkish parents

Portugal
Pepe - Brazil
Deco - Brazil
Nani - Cape Verde
Jos� Bosingwa - DR Congo
Petit - France

Also there now:
Liedson - Brazil
Rolando - Cape Verde

Switzerland
Gelson Fernandes - Cape Verde
Johan Vonlanthen - Colombia
Johan Djourou - Cote d'Ivoire
Valon Behrami - Kosovo
Eldin Jakupović - Bosnia (Played U-21 for Bosnia & received a senior call for Bosnia but didn't play)

Also there now :
Blaise Nkufo - DR Congo
Hakan Yakin - Turkish Parents
Eren Derdiyok - Turkish Parents
G�khan Inler - Turkish Parents


Turkey
Mehmet Aur�lio - Brazil
Colin Kazim-Richards - England
Mevl�t Erdin� - France
Hakan Balta - Germany
Hamit Altintop - Germany
Halil Altintop - Germany

Also there now :
Nuri Şahin - Germany

Austria
Ronald G�r�aliu - Albania
Ivica Vastić - Croatia
Martin Harnik - Germany
Gy�rgy Garics - Hungary

Also there now:
Ekrem Dağ - Turkey
Yasin Pehlivan - Turkish Parents
Veli Kavlak - Turkish Parents
�mit Korkmaz - Turkish Parents
David Alaba - Nigerian Father/Filipino Mother

Italy
Mauro Camoranesi - Argentina (a Trapattoni acquisition)
Simone Perrotta - England

Spain
Marcos Senna - Brazil

Poland
Roger Guerreiro - Brazil

Also there now :
Ludovic Obraniak - France (He also played U-21 for France)

Greece
Loukas Vyntra - Czech Republic


Don't see how it hurted team morale or 'national pride' for any of those nations. Case closed.

[irishfan86]

Good post Trap, it shows the changing world we live in -- where you're born doesn't necessarily define you, and we're hardly the worst when it comes to "exploiting" the granny rule.

As for DannyInvincible's post, I don't think it was necessarily that Adrock was attacking the "proud diaspora," but rather, he was, if I am correct, implying that O'Hara, by playing for England at U-21 level, is not a proud member of the diaspora.

Now I know for a fact, being a dual-citizen, that people can love two countries, because I do. I would love to represent Ireland, or Canada. If that makes me any less Irish or Canadian, then so be it. I couldn't care less what anybody thinks of that.

If I were a top player, Ireland would be my first choice, but if I wasn't good enough, I would proudly play for Canada. I can't criticize O'Hara if he takes a similar position.

[TrapAPony]

Good post Trap, it shows the changing world we live in -- where you're born doesn't necessarily define you, and we're hardly the worst when it comes to "exploiting" the granny rule.



Thanks. I don't think people are even aware that many of the top nations are at it big time.

[Adrock]

Below is a list of foreign born players who were named in their national squads for Euro 2008.

Croatia
Josip �imunić - Australia
Robert Kovač - Germany
Niko Kovač - Germany
Ivan Klasnić - Germany
Ivan Rakitić - Switzerland
Vedran Ćorluka - Bosnia
Mladen Petrić - Bosnia
Eduardo was injured- Brazil

France
Jean-Alain Boumsong - Cameroon
Florent Malouda - French Guiana
Lilian Thuram - Guadeloupe
Steve Mandanda - DR Congo
Claude Mak�l�l� - DR Congo
Patrice Evra - Senegal
Patrick Vieira - Senegal

Germany
Kevin Kur�nyi - Brazil
Miroslav Klose - Poland
Piotr Trochowski - Poland
Lukas Podolski - Poland
Oliver Neuville - Switzerland

Also there now:
Cacau - Brazil
Jerome Boateng - Ghanaian/German (Uncle played for Ghana & brother Kevin-Prince Boateng of Portsmouth is about to switch to Ghana despite playing 6 U-21 games for Germany. Ghana & Germany are in the same World Cup group.)
Mesut �zil - Turkish parents

Portugal
Pepe - Brazil
Deco - Brazil
Nani - Cape Verde
Jos� Bosingwa - DR Congo
Petit - France

Also there now:
Liedson - Brazil
Rolando - Cape Verde

Switzerland
Gelson Fernandes - Cape Verde
Johan Vonlanthen - Colombia
Johan Djourou - Cote d'Ivoire
Valon Behrami - Kosovo
Eldin Jakupović - Bosnia

Also there now :
Blaise Nkufo - DR Congo
Hakan Yakin - Turkish Parents
Eren Derdiyok - Turkish Parents
G�khan Inler - Turkish Parents


Turkey
Mehmet Aur�lio - Brazil
Colin Kazim-Richards - England
Mevl�t Erdin� - France
Hakan Balta - Germany
Hamit Altintop - Germany
Halil Altintop - Germany

Also there now :
Nuri Şahin - Germany

Austria
Ronald G�r�aliu - Albania
Ivica Vastić - Croatia
Martin Harnik - Germany
Gy�rgy Garics - Hungary

Also there now:
Ekrem Dağ - Turkey
Yasin Pehlivan - Turkish Parents
Veli Kavlak - Turkish Parents
�mit Korkmaz - Turkish Parents
David Alaba - Nigerian Father/Filipino Mother

Italy
Mauro Camoranesi - Argentina (a Trapattoni acquisition)
Simone Perrotta - England

Spain
Marcos Senna - Brazil

Poland
Roger Guerreiro - Brazil

Also there now :
Ludovic Obraniak - France (He also played U-21 for France)

Greece
Loukas Vyntra - Czech Republic


Don't see how it hurted team morale or 'national pride' for any of those nations. Case closed.
Not quite..........

Well most of the players mentioned above - all the French ones for instance - come in the Steve Finnan category born one country, raised in another and are not relevant to my point. I would have no problem with Sean St Ledger's grandad playing for Ireland after he'd moved to England, but his grandson to do so is somewhat more dubious. I'm sure in the future as more immigrants come to the Emerald Isle we will have a few players of our own in this bracket. Lets face it the France national team would be in a pretty sorry state if it didn't select players of immigrant origins.

Most of the remaining ones are more your Kevin Kilbane types, both parents from country they are representing, never represented another country. As I've said a couple of these in your squad isn't really an issue.

That leaves one or two only qualified through the good ol granny rule. Camoranesi is not Italian and I know a lot of Italians had problems with him playing for them. He has at least lived there several years and not played for Argentina at any level that I'm aware.
Then there's Obraniak who is not Polish in any respect and doubtless never gave a thought to his Polishness had he not happened to become a footballer not good enough for his own country, but good enough for his grandparent's country. Should he be playing for them? No ,of course not and if I were on a Polish football forum I'd be arguing this in lots of consenants. Poland have no track record of exploiting this rule though and he is a drop in the ocean compared to the legions of players the ROI have recruited this way.
In any case to say all federations are playing the same game as the FAI doesn't exactly hold water.

I just don't believe in this racial heritage stuff. Travelling the world has shown me an Albanian brought up in the U.S.A for instance is a yank and an American with an Albanian granny visiting Albania isn't gonna feel any more at home than me
As it happens I've a scottish grandparent. But do I go out prancing around in a ginger wig and a skirt when Scotland are losing their latest world cup qualifier? :(
However if I happened to be a footballer and my dazzling ball skills were for some reason being ignored by Trap and I was coveted by the SFA (seeking revenge for Houghton, Mcgeady etc) I might just swallow my pride and pull on a blue shirt and then I might just even pretend I always felt a bit Scotch to the media so they didn't give me a hard time about it. Isn't it great to be part of the 'diaspora' - really improves your options in life!

[geysir]

I just don't believe in this racial heritage stuff.
And I don't believe in limbo.
Neither limbo nor racial heritage have any relevance to national identity or acquired nationality.

[davey]

Not quite..........

Well most of the players mentioned above - all the French ones for instance - come in the Steve Finnan category born one country, raised in another and are not relevant to my point. I would have no problem with Sean St Ledger's grandad playing for Ireland after he'd moved to England, but his grandson to do so is somewhat more dubious. I'm sure in the future as more immigrants come to the Emerald Isle we will have a few players of our own in this bracket. Lets face it the France national team would be in a pretty sorry state if it didn't select players of immigrant origins.

Most of the remaining ones are more your Kevin Kilbane types, both parents from country they are representing, never represented another country. As I've said a couple of these in your squad isn't really an issue.

That leaves one or two only qualified through the good ol granny rule. Camoranesi is not Italian and I know a lot of Italians had problems with him playing for them. He has at least lived there several years and not played for Argentina at any level that I'm aware.
Then there's Obraniak who is not Polish in any respect and doubtless never gave a thought to his Polishness had he not happened to become a footballer not good enough for his own country, but good enough for his grandparent's country. Should he be playing for them? No ,of course not and if I were on a Polish football forum I'd be arguing this in lots of consenants. Poland have no track record of exploiting this rule though and he is a drop in the ocean compared to the legions of players the ROI have recruited this way.
In any case to say all federations are playing the same game as the FAI doesn't exactly hold water.

I just don't believe in this racial heritage stuff. Travelling the world has shown me an Albanian brought up in the U.S.A for instance is a yank and an American with an Albanian granny visiting Albania isn't gonna feel any more at home than me
As it happens I've a scottish grandparent. But do I go out prancing around in a ginger wig and a skirt when Scotland are losing their latest world cup qualifier? :(
However if I happened to be a footballer and my dazzling ball skills were for some reason being ignored by Trap and I was coveted by the SFA (seeking revenge for Houghton, Mcgeady etc) I might just swallow my pride and pull on a blue shirt and then I might just even pretend I always felt a bit Scotch to the media so they didn't give me a hard time about it. Isn't it great to be part of the 'diaspora' - really improves your options in life!

Where do you start with a post like this ? I'm not sure which is scarier, your views or the amount of effort which has gone into espousing them.

Firstly explain how all of the French players fall into the "Steve Finnan category" They were all born outside of France and raised to differing extents in France. Finnan is the reverse I believe. The dynamic is very different I would think.

Its great that you think its ok to have a couple of Kevin Kilbanes in our squad. Thanks:sarcastic:

Your remark about the US Albanian betrays such a lack of knowledge of emigrant culture in the US. You mentioned in a previous post that it was possible to be English and Irish. So its not possible to be American and Albanian ? It is patently obvious that the US wasn't covered when you "travelled the world"

The adjective Scotch is used for pies, whisky and a junction on the A1 - never people. Your Grandad/ma never told you that ?? Its loathed by all Scottish people, in fact its one of the quickest way to start a fight here.

The use of the word diaspora in quotation marks - is this because you don't believe it exists? I'm unsure why you felt the need to use them. Please clarify if you can.

[SkStu]

The adjective Scotch is used for pies, whisky and a junction on the A1 - never people..

and eggs.

[SilkCut]

Not quite..........




I just don't believe in this racial heritage stuff. Travelling the world has shown me an Albanian brought up in the U.S.A for instance is a yank and an American with an Albanian granny visiting Albania isn't gonna feel any more at home than me
As it happens I've a scottish grandparent. But do I go out prancing around in a ginger wig and a skirt when Scotland are losing their latest world cup qualifier? :(
However if I happened to be a footballer and my dazzling ball skills were for some reason being ignored by Trap and I was coveted by the SFA (seeking revenge for Houghton, Mcgeady etc) I might just swallow my pride and pull on a blue shirt and then I might just even pretend I always felt a bit Scotch to the media so they didn't give me a hard time about it. Isn't it great to be part of the 'diaspora' - really improves your options in life!

Firstly all you have done is tell us about you and what you would do and how you would feel (this is fine, it is a forum and its here for us to put our opinions on), how would you know how these 2nd and 3rd gen players feel about their roots? You say that travelling the world has shown you that 3rd gen people don't have any feelings for the home of their grandparents, I would beg to differ. I have lived in many countries (by lived I mean more than a year) and everywhere I go I meet people who are in fact more attached to their ancesteral home than they are to the country of their birth. My boss was born and bred in Sydney yet considers himself Macedonian because of his nan, every Greek person you will meet in Melbourne will tell you they are in fact Greek, even though they may have been born and bred here. From an Irish point of view, everywhere I have lived has had an Irish community many of whom are 2nd 3rd even 4th gen and all feel as Irish as I do.
So Adrock you are absolutely entitled to have and voice your opinion but please don't believe it to be fact.

[davey]

and eggs.

Damn, theres probably something else too:o

[Plastic Paddy]

Damn, theres probably something else too:o

Broth. :D

:ball: PP

[DannyInvincible]

Hopscotch?

[Adrock]

Where do you start with a post like this ? I'm not sure which is scarier, your views or the amount of effort which has gone into espousing them.

Firstly explain how all of the French players fall into the "Steve Finnan category" They were all born outside of France and raised to differing extents in France. Finnan is the reverse I believe. The dynamic is very different I would think.

Its great that you think its ok to have a couple of Kevin Kilbanes in our squad. Thanks:sarcastic:

Your remark about the US Albanian betrays such a lack of knowledge of emigrant culture in the US. You mentioned in a previous post that it was possible to be English and Irish. So its not possible to be American and Albanian ? It is patently obvious that the US wasn't covered when you "travelled the world"

The adjective Scotch is used for pies, whisky and a junction on the A1 - never people. Your Grandad/ma never told you that ?? Its loathed by all Scottish people, in fact its one of the quickest way to start a fight here.

The use of the word diaspora in quotation marks - is this because you don't believe it exists? I'm unsure why you felt the need to use them. Please clarify if you can.

Really, quicker than taunting them about Mcgeady and Mccarthy? I think Scotch is actually loved by them and is probably a major reason they are inclined to start fights quickly about trivial stuff:smirk:
Glad my gran escaped anyway.......

You're right though of course, I don't doubt for a single moment that those great Albanian actors John and James Belushi grew up passionately supporting the Albanian football team. Or perhaps they just accepted that that was where their pregenitors happened to originate from

If you'd read my previous posts I'm sure you'll have noticed my mentioning Steven Finnan as being entitled to represent either Ireland or England on account of being born in one, brought up in another. This can of course work both ways. Are you suggesting that nationality should only be a racial issue and African born players brought up in France aren't at all French entitled to represent them? That stance is a little bit racist, perhaps even scary isn't it?
People seem to be offended by suggesting Finnan has as much right to represent England and Ireland, perhaps having not actually known he was brought up there. Do you think when he retires he's going to settle down with his family back in the old country? The fact that he took the non-league route in to professional football meant England representative honours weren't likely on the agenda so it never became an issue, or maybe he still sees himself as Irish which he is entitled to of course.

Regarding the diaspora, of course a lot of Irish emigrated due to economic imperatives in the past, but the potato famine's a long time gone. If you want to move abroad fine, I'm often tempted to myself, and of course having done so you naturally go on supporting the team you grew up cheering for , but if you then marry a local girl and eventually have grandkids who sixty years later still imagine they are Irish like their granddaddy, this would seem to be a sign of severe social maladjustment rather than pride. Are there really people on this board in this situation? You have my pity...........

[Adrock]

Firstly all you have done is tell us about you and what you would do and how you would feel (this is fine, it is a forum and its here for us to put our opinions on), how would you know how these 2nd and 3rd gen players feel about their roots? You say that travelling the world has shown you that 3rd gen people don't have any feelings for the home of their grandparents, I would beg to differ. I have lived in many countries (by lived I mean more than a year) and everywhere I go I meet people who are in fact more attached to their ancesteral home than they are to the country of their birth. My boss was born and bred in Sydney yet considers himself Macedonian because of his nan, every Greek person you will meet in Melbourne will tell you they are in fact Greek, even though they may have been born and bred here. From an Irish point of view, everywhere I have lived has had an Irish community many of whom are 2nd 3rd even 4th gen and all feel as Irish as I do.
So Adrock you are absolutely entitled to have and voice your opinion but please don't believe it to be fact.

Can't even be bothered with this one. Saying a 3rd Gen or 4th Gen (must've been doing a bit of family tree scanning there, maybe they could get a job at the FAI) is not Irish/Macedonian etc isn't really a matter of opinion though its more of a truism......and you can tell your boss I said that!

[Gnobe]

Are you suggesting that nationality should only be a racial issue and African born players brought up in France aren't at all French entitled to represent them? That stance is a little bit racist, perhaps even scary isn't it?


Er NO ONE has said that nationality should be based on 'race' alone. I think most people are saying its one of many factors that could be accepted as being Irish. Most of us are fairly flexible about this to be honest with you. Whether they are born and brought up in Ireland to foreign immigrants, born and brought up abroad to parents from Ireland, or even living here for a short period of time, born elsewhere but grown up to school here etc. It's all good, as long as you can get the bloody passport. All passports are the same there's no one more passport that is more irish than the other.

[cavan_fan]

I like Trap's mail and it shows a good bit of research but let's make sure we are comparing apples with apples. There's a few people on the list (e.g. Yakin) who were born in the country they play for but have parents from another country. That's not what we are looking at is it?

Anyway we have a fairly simple set. The irish players in question were:
Not born on the island of Ireland (dont lets get into Gibson)
Usually born in Britain to parents or more rarely grandparents who were born in Ireland.
Importantly, I think, they have never lived in Ireland. This is mostly due to the 'weakness' of our league but it means our players are different from e.g. Vieira.

In fact I think there are few of the players on Trap's list in this category. I personally believe that O'Hara is 'more' eligible for Ireland than Eduardo is for Croatia but I know some people would say 'at least eduardo has lived in Croatia'.

[davey]

You're right though of course, I don't doubt for a single moment that those great Albanian actors John and James Belushi grew up passionately supporting the Albanian football team. Or perhaps they just accepted that that was where their pregenitors happened to originate from

If you'd read my previous posts I'm sure you'll have noticed my mentioning Steven Finnan as being entitled to represent either Ireland or England on account of being born in one, brought up in another. This can of course work both ways. Are you suggesting that nationality should only be a racial issue and African born players brought up in France aren't at all French entitled to represent them? That stance is a little bit racist, perhaps even scary isn't it?
People seem to be offended by suggesting Finnan has as much right to represent England and Ireland, perhaps having not actually known he was brought up there. Do you think when he retires he's going to settle down with his family back in the old country? The fact that he took the non-league route in to professional football meant England representative honours weren't likely on the agenda so it never became an issue, or maybe he still sees himself as Irish which he is entitled to of course.

Regarding the diaspora, of course a lot of Irish emigrated due to economic imperatives in the past, but the potato famine's a long time gone. If you want to move abroad fine, I'm often tempted to myself, and of course having done so you naturally go on supporting the team you grew up cheering for , but if you then marry a local girl and eventually have grandkids who sixty years later still imagine they are Irish like their granddaddy, this would seem to be a sign of severe social maladjustment rather than pride. Are there really people on this board in this situation? You have my pity...........

Steve Finnan, eligible for England:confused: Are his parents English ? Seriously a genuine question. Being brought up in England would not make him eligible for England I wouldn't have thought.

Not a sliver of a suggestion in my post to suggest that I believed nationality to be a racial issue - very cheap shot. If anything your post brought to mind that well known Conservative liberal Norman Tebbit. He was outraged that children of parents from the Indian subcontinent would choose to support India or Pakistan at Cricket over England. He must have thought they were severely socially maladjusted :rolleyes: Having being brought up in a racially diverse part of Birmingham, I knew hundreds of severely socially maladjusted kids who wore Indian or Pakistani Cricket tops.

Your Belushi "point" is laughable. As if football was the only reference point for peoples identity. Have no knowledge of the brothers background but language, food, music etc are probably more valid expressions of identity than football. Please see the whole of American Popular culture for reference points.

Diaspora - potato famine? - wtf :disdain: I cannot believe that I have to enlighten an Irishman/woman that emigration from Ireland continues right up to the present day. The 50s/60s saw a huge amount of emigration to the UK.

[Charlie Darwin]

Finnan would be have been eligible as he had lived in England for five years as an adult before playing for Ireland, at least under the current rules.

[geysir]

I cannot believe that I have to enlighten an Irishman/woman that emigration from Ireland continues right up to the present day. The 50s/60s saw a huge amount of emigration to the UK.
They would be the Paddies. The Micks came in the 70�s

[davey]

They would be the Paddies. The Micks came in the 70�s
;) That would be right. My dad was a Paddy, I'm a Mick as I came over in 74. Plastic Mick isn't alliterative though. Metal Mickey ??:)

That 5 year rule is recent though right ? Was Finnan eligible 10 years ago? If we were considered a "home" country does the gentlemans agreement between them still apply. I'm thinking principally of Ryan Giggs who obviously feels Welsh and English according to Adrocks take on Nationality.

[geysir]

;) That would be right. My dad was a Paddy, I'm a Mick as I came over in 74. Plastic Mick isn't alliterative though. Metal Mickey ??:)

Can also be confusing, I remember one English guy on a building site when he referred to me as Paddy. I said " I�m not a Paddy I�m a Mick, see him over there - he's a Paddy"
"But his name is Mick".
So I had to explain that Mick may not necessarily be a Mick but a Paddy.


that 5 year rule is recent though right ?
No it dates back some decades.
After a 5 year residency you could embark on a process of naturalisation, if you could swallow (but not necessarily digest) the oath of allegiance.

[Adrock]

Steve Finnan, eligible for England:confused: Are his parents English ? Seriously a genuine question. Being brought up in England would not make him eligible for England I wouldn't have thought.

Not a sliver of a suggestion in my post to suggest that I believed nationality to be a racial issue - very cheap shot. If anything your post brought to mind that well known Conservative liberal Norman Tebbit. He was outraged that children of parents from the Indian subcontinent would choose to support India or Pakistan at Cricket over England. He must have thought they were severely socially maladjusted :rolleyes: Having being brought up in a racially diverse part of Birmingham, I knew hundreds of severely socially maladjusted kids who wore Indian or Pakistani Cricket tops.

Your Belushi "point" is laughable. As if football was the only reference point for peoples identity. Have no knowledge of the brothers background but language, food, music etc are probably more valid expressions of identity than football. Please see the whole of American Popular culture for reference points.

Diaspora - potato famine? - wtf I cannot believe that I have to enlighten an Irishman/woman that emigration from Ireland continues right up to the present day. The 50s/60s saw a huge amount of emigration to the UK.

Its truly sad Albanian food is actually a lot better than ours - even if it does give you the runs. Imagine the poor ol' diaspora in America stuck eating their Irish stew, forever enslaved to the customs of their ancestors. :(
I really don't think the Belushis would have ever stated their nationality as Albanian when asked, just a hunch though really having not known them personally.

Sorry I didn't realise I was discoursing with an english fella. Your country's ethnic integration problems are distressing to hear about though. I'd have thought the Paddy/Micks would blend in to the community rather than sticking to ethnic ghettos like Asians though. Still, and I think I've mentioned this at some point, if your parents are from another country and you still want to identify yourself with that country fair enough, though it would seem odd wouldn't it to suddenly switch in your mid-twenties from supporting England to having India as your team. You'd know what you were one way or the other by then wouldn't you?

You probably don't know, not being from here that Ireland is actually quite a prosperous country now (current troubles notwithstanding) so you dont need to leave to attain a comfortable livelihood, unless you happen to be a footballer sad to say.
I think btw Finnan qualifies for England the same way Vieira does for France. We are not a Homecountry as the Republic obtained independence quite a while ago.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Adrock, yer like a broken record at this stage. FIFA as we all know, are c*nts, but their eligibility rules are amongst their, er, better attributes.

And clearly you've never eaten food in Albania? I have. 'Interesting' is being polite.

[geysir]

Adrock, yer like a broken record at this stage.
Like a lot of other things as well, none of them flattering.
There is no purpose to his posts here, all aimless pointless drivel.

[Adrock]

Adrock, yer like a broken record at this stage. FIFA as we all know, are c*nts, but their eligibility rules are amongst their, er, better attributes.

And clearly you've never eaten food in Albania? I have. 'Interesting' is being polite.

I feel that way too, but several people seem to have trouble grasping the point, especially when it comes to Steve Finnan it appears :frown:

I have sampled Albanian cuisine in fact and it was quite tasty - the kind of Turkish food with a local twist you get through most of the Balkans.

Anyway time to sum up I think as I'm getting dizzy going round in circles. As far as the facts are concerned we - the Republic of Ireland - as a whole have not been producing sufficient quality players in recent years to sustain a competitive football team in the long term. I say the long term because a decade or so ago we were churning them out : say the generation born 1976 - 1983. Since then the supply has run dry, although I have hopes for some youngsters in our youth set up. It is as a result of this most likely the FAI has been stepping up its recruitment campaign, whether from England, Northern Ireland , Scotland or beyond in order to paper over the cracks and make it look like they're doing a good job.

What they in fact doing is exploiting FIFA's generous eligibility rules to pick off players from our neighbours to fill in gaps that shouldn't be there. Of course these rules are a good attribute in terms of us being able to exploit it to our advantage but they are not doing anything to truly enhance the health of Irish football. It would be nice to see them take their gaze away from nosing through family trees hunting for the next defector to poach and actually doing something positive like setting up a national academy so we are not almost entirely reliant on English clubs to nurture our players and perhaps set up some kind of half-serious national league, like the way Australia have done with their A League or the U.S whatever they call it. Ok so its never going to be a Premiership of Serie A but it would do us the world of good and be a good starting point for potential international players. Might even get a couple of Brazilians to come over and naturalise themselves! Then maybe most the space on this forum wouldn't be filled up with getting worked up over the next plastic, or dude with an Irish sounding name who may or maybe not be entitled to or give consideration to playing for us should his 'other options' not be likely to materialise.
Its been great talking to you all:hug2:

[davey]

Its truly sad Albanian food is actually a lot better than ours - even if it does give you the runs. Imagine the poor ol' diaspora in America stuck eating their Irish stew, forever enslaved to the customs of their ancestors. :(
I really don't think the Belushis would have ever stated their nationality as Albanian when asked, just a hunch though really having not known them personally.

Sorry I didn't realise I was discoursing with an english fella. Your country's ethnic integration problems are distressing to hear about though. I'd have thought the Paddy/Micks would blend in to the community rather than sticking to ethnic ghettos like Asians though. Still, and I think I've mentioned this at some point, if your parents are from another country and you still want to identify yourself with that country fair enough, though it would seem odd wouldn't it to suddenly switch in your mid-twenties from supporting England to having India as your team. You'd know what you were one way or the other by then wouldn't you?

You probably don't know, not being from here that Ireland is actually quite a prosperous country now (current troubles notwithstanding) so you dont need to leave to attain a comfortable livelihood, unless you happen to be a footballer sad to say.
I think btw Finnan qualifies for England the same way Vieira does for France. We are not a Homecountry as the Republic obtained independence quite a while ago.

Have you had a lobotomy as your post makes no sense at all in reply to mine?. Where did I say anything about people switching the cricket team they support.

Irelands relative prosperity is rather a recent phenomena. I must be trying to debate with a teenager. An ignorant racist teenager at that with your comments about asian ethnic ghettos and Irish people blending in differently. What a tube.

BTW I'm English in the same way that Steve Finnan is English

[ArdeeBhoy]

What they in fact doing is exploiting FIFA's generous eligibility rules to pick off players from our neighbours to fill in gaps that shouldn't be there. Of course these rules are a good attribute in terms of us being able to exploit it to our advantage but they are not doing anything to truly enhance the health of Irish football.
It would be nice to see them take their gaze away from nosing through family trees hunting for the next defector to poach and actually doing something positive like setting up a national academy so we are not almost entirely reliant on English clubs to nurture our players and perhaps set up some kind of half-serious national league, like the way Australia have done with their A League or the U.S whatever they call it. Ok so its never going to be a Premiership of Serie A but it would do us the world of good and be a good starting point for potential international players. Might even get a couple of Brazilians to come over and naturalise themselves! Then maybe most the space on this forum wouldn't be filled up with getting worked up over the next plastic, or dude with an Irish sounding name who may or maybe not be entitled to or give consideration to playing for us should his 'other options' not be likely to materialise.

In answer to what I have defined as your first 'paragraph', Yawn, who cares?

The second is a more serious point, but not issues that can ever be answered here!
Why not send these requests to the FAI but are going to take about 20 years to implement, not withstanding the current financial climate?
Utopia's a nice idea, but unsure it can ever be achieved....

[SilkCut]

I feel that way too, but several people seem to have trouble grasping the point, especially when it comes to Steve Finnan it appears :frown:

I have sampled Albanian cuisine in fact and it was quite tasty - the kind of Turkish food with a local twist you get through most of the Balkans.

Anyway time to sum up I think as I'm getting dizzy going round in circles. As far as the facts are concerned we - the Republic of Ireland - as a whole have not been producing sufficient quality players in recent years to sustain a competitive football team in the long term. I say the long term because a decade or so ago we were churning them out : say the generation born 1976 - 1983. Since then the supply has run dry, although I have hopes for some youngsters in our youth set up. It is as a result of this most likely the FAI has been stepping up its recruitment campaign, whether from England, Northern Ireland , Scotland or beyond in order to paper over the cracks and make it look like they're doing a good job.

What they in fact doing is exploiting FIFA's generous eligibility rules to pick off players from our neighbours to fill in gaps that shouldn't be there. Of course these rules are a good attribute in terms of us being able to exploit it to our advantage but they are not doing anything to truly enhance the health of Irish football. It would be nice to see them take their gaze away from nosing through family trees hunting for the next defector to poach and actually doing something positive like setting up a national academy so we are not almost entirely reliant on English clubs to nurture our players and perhaps set up some kind of half-serious national league, like the way Australia have done with their A League or the U.S whatever they call it. Ok so its never going to be a Premiership of Serie A but it would do us the world of good and be a good starting point for potential international players. Might even get a couple of Brazilians to come over and naturalise themselves! Then maybe most the space on this forum wouldn't be filled up with getting worked up over the next plastic, or dude with an Irish sounding name who may or maybe not be entitled to or give consideration to playing for us should his 'other options' not be likely to materialise.
Its been great talking to you all:hug2:


Its truly sad Albanian food is actually a lot better than ours - even if it does give you the runs. Imagine the poor ol' diaspora in America stuck eating their Irish stew, forever enslaved to the customs of their ancestors. :(
I really don't think the Belushis would have ever stated their nationality as Albanian when asked, just a hunch though really having not known them personally.

Sorry I didn't realise I was discoursing with an english fella. Your country's ethnic integration problems are distressing to hear about though. I'd have thought the Paddy/Micks would blend in to the community rather than sticking to ethnic ghettos like Asians though. Still, and I think I've mentioned this at some point, if your parents are from another country and you still want to identify yourself with that country fair enough, though it would seem odd wouldn't it to suddenly switch in your mid-twenties from supporting England to having India as your team. You'd know what you were one way or the other by then wouldn't you?

You probably don't know, not being from here that Ireland is actually quite a prosperous country now (current troubles notwithstanding) so you dont need to leave to attain a comfortable livelihood, unless you happen to be a footballer sad to say.
I think btw Finnan qualifies for England the same way Vieira does for France. We are not a Homecountry as the Republic obtained independence quite a while ago.

Two points in two posts that prove your undoubted worldliness. The A-League is basically the LOI with a "Star" player at each club, it is utter utter rubbish, both Guus Hiddink and Pim Verbeek have said so in as many words and they have both coached the national team, they have two sides - the A-league kids for the AFC qualifiers and the foreign based players for the WC qualifiers.

Your point about Ireland being a prosperous country...... Mate are you paying attention to whats going on around you? Ireland had a rich economy built on foreign investment. Ireland is officially in the poor house and will remain so for quite some time to come because we lived way beyond our means for so long - this suggests (economically) that we were never really wealthy we just got given a pile of cash and instead of saving it we wasted it. Rather like a kid with their communion money, they are wealthy in comparison to their friends but in the grander scheme of things they are not. Rather like you mate, you may seem intelligent and well rounded in comparison to your mates but on here with a broader base of people and personalities..................................... ...............................

[Adrock]

Two points in two posts that prove your undoubted worldliness. The A-League is basically the LOI with a "Star" player at each club, it is utter utter rubbish, both Guus Hiddink and Pim Verbeek have said so in as many words and they have both coached the national team, they have two sides - the A-league kids for the AFC qualifiers and the foreign based players for the WC qualifiers.

Your point about Ireland being a prosperous country...... Mate are you paying attention to whats going on around you? Ireland had a rich economy built on foreign investment. Ireland is officially in the poor house and will remain so for quite some time to come because we lived way beyond our means for so long - this suggests (economically) that we were never really wealthy we just got given a pile of cash and instead of saving it we wasted it. Rather like a kid with their communion money, they are wealthy in comparison to their friends but in the grander scheme of things they are not. Rather like you mate, you may seem intelligent and well rounded in comparison to your mates but on here with a broader base of people and personalities..................................... ...............................
Yes, intellectual giants all of you...............:rolleyes:
Well living in Ireland and not the other side of the world I dont know the exact merits of Australian football but at least they have a professional structure in place the offers a starting point for potential international quality players. Much like Norway, sure most their first choice players are usually based abroad but they all made their mark first in Norway's league. We have a similar population and , unlike Australia where your soccer is a minority sport, football is our national sport(please don't mention gaelic) so having a reasonably serious national league like most European countries manage, should be realistic. Look at Irish rugby - much less popular sport but they have the right structure in place and the results at club and international level to back it up, and every one of the Ireland team is Irish to the core. Maybe a Celtic super league with teams from Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland could be an option, I'm sure FIFA wouldn't stand in the way.

[greendeiseboy]

Yes, intellectual giants all of you...............:rolleyes:
We have a similar population and , unlike Australia where your soccer is a minority sport, football is our national sport(please don't mention gaelic) so having a reasonably serious national league like most European countries manage, should be realistic. Look at Irish rugby - much less popular sport but they have the right structure in place and the results at club and international level to back it up, and every one of the Ireland team is Irish to the core. Maybe a Celtic super league with teams from Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland could be an option, I'm sure FIFA wouldn't stand in the way.


Football i.e. Soccer our National sport - come on boi will you get a grip

All Irish Rugby Squad Irish to the core - I assume you mean by that Irish born and bred -dont think so - Issac Boss, Tom Court, Brett Wilkinson all born abroad some have tentative links - and we also had the Easterby's and Simon Geoghan born and bred in England to name a few.

And for the record Jamie Heaslip was born in Israel!!!!

Bit more research Ardrock

[Charlie Darwin]

There is no way soccer is Ireland's national sport.

[TrapAPony]

There is no way soccer is Ireland's national sport.

Ya it's well behind Rugby & GAA.

[SkStu]

"Soccer" is definitely not our national sport.

Ardrock does have a good point in his post that has been ignored in the rush to vilify him, namely:


What they in fact doing is exploiting FIFA's generous eligibility rules to pick off players from our neighbours to fill in gaps that shouldn't be there. Of course these rules are a good attribute in terms of us being able to exploit it to our advantage but they are not doing anything to truly enhance the health of Irish football. It would be nice to see them take their gaze away from nosing through family trees hunting for the next defector to poach and actually doing something positive like setting up a national academy so we are not almost entirely reliant on English clubs to nurture our players and perhaps set up some kind of half-serious national league, like the way Australia have done with their A League or the U.S whatever they call it. Ok so its never going to be a Premiership of Serie A but it would do us the world of good and be a good starting point for potential international players.

ive been saying this for years. The fact that we dont develop our own players in the professional game is to our detriment. We do not shape our own destiny as a football nation, instead we let the clubs of other associations do this from the age of 14/15. We supplement with picking off 2g players, some of dubious Irishness. Ive accepted that this wont change anytime soon but i did want to point out that Ardrock's posts shouldnt be so quickly dismissed.

[Adrock]

Football i.e. Soccer our National sport - come on boi will you get a grip

All Irish Rugby Squad Irish to the core - I assume you mean by that Irish born and bred -dont think so - Issac Boss, Tom Court, Brett Wilkinson all born abroad some have tentative links - and we also had the Easterby's and Simon Geoghan born and bred in England to name a few.

And for the record Jamie Heaslip was born in Israel!!!!

Bit more research Ardrock

Ok, most popular sport then, surely? Anyway thats a can of worms I'm not looking to open as it will doubtless involve getting in to discussions on GAA and life's too short.
I'm talking about our present national rugby squad (not A team players or ex-internationals) I didn't know Heaslip was born in Israel, but I doubt he grew up and learned his rugby there. If your parents happen to be stationed overseas when you were born isn't quite the same as the situations debated over the previous however many posts.

[third policeman]

"ive been saying this for years. The fact that we dont develop our own players in the professional game is to our detriment. We do not shape our own destiny as a football nation, instead we let the clubs of other associations do this from the age of 14/15. We supplement with picking off 2g players, some of dubious Irishness. Ive accepted that this wont change anytime soon but i did want to point out that Ardrock's posts shouldnt be so quickly dismissed.


Totally agree, but as has been argued here countless times developing the potential of homegrown players in a viable professional structure would require very radical restructuring of the domestic game - at the very very least an All Ireland League of no more than 10 clubs or more probably a Celtic League type proposition. Irish players can still earn more money playing in League 2 or maybe even the Second tier of Scottish football than they can in the EL. We have too many clubs and too few people to support our current clubs. Of course it is fixable and if the aim is to improve standards, attract more supporters and build a viable domestic socer product, decisive action would have been taken years ago, but we are being held to ransom by the EL brigade who quite honestly display similar tribal small mindedness to the NI refusniks on OWC.

THere are probably more than 150 Irish players (Ni and ROI) playing at Premiership, Championship and SPL clubs. We could easily support six / eight decent quality professional clubs with sustainable support base and that would be a massive boost to the international team(s) as well.

[Yard of Pace]

Similar situation to O'Hara here:
Lucas Barrios, an Argentinian who plays for Dortmund and who's mother is from Paraguay.


Diego Maradona has proclaimed a distinct lack of interest in the predatory talents of "La Pantera" (the Panther), yet Barrios could still make it to the World Cup. His mum hails from Paraguay and he has a firm offer to play for them in June. "I will think about it," he said.

And that's an offer of a trip to the World Cup!

[SkStu]

Totally agree, but as has been argued here countless times developing the potential of homegrown players in a viable professional structure would require very radical restructuring of the domestic game - at the very very least an All Ireland League of no more than 10 clubs or more probably a Celtic League type proposition. Irish players can still earn more money playing in League 2 or maybe even the Second tier of Scottish football than they can in the EL. We have too many clubs and too few people to support our current clubs. Of course it is fixable and if the aim is to improve standards, attract more supporters and build a viable domestic socer product, decisive action would have been taken years ago, but we are being held to ransom by the EL brigade who quite honestly display similar tribal small mindedness to the NI refusniks on OWC.

THere are probably more than 150 Irish players (Ni and ROI) playing at Premiership, Championship and SPL clubs. We could easily support six / eight decent quality professional clubs with sustainable support base and that would be a massive boost to the international team(s) as well.

id have to disagree with your assertion that it is the fault of the "EL brigade" (eircom are gone by the way). In my opinion, it is the influence and inflexibility of the nursery/schoolboy clubs and the indifference of the FAI where the blame truly lies. Although there undoubtedly are too many clubs in Dublin, there is no reason why the current clubs in the LOI cannot achieve what we both agree is a good thing. There is no good reason to get rid of clubs that were regularly attracting crowds of 20000 punters 30 or 40 years ago and who have over 100 years of history and tradition and who are making great strides on (if not off) the pitch as our Euro results show. There is just a disconnect between football at all levels in this country that the FAI seems incapable of bridging.

[third policeman]

id have to disagree with your assertion that it is the fault of the "EL brigade" (eircom are gone by the way). In my opinion, it is the influence and inflexibility of the nursery/schoolboy clubs and the indifference of the FAI where the blame truly lies. Although there undoubtedly are too many clubs in Dublin, there is no reason why the current clubs in the LOI cannot achieve what we both agree is a good thing. There is no good reason to get rid of clubs that were regularly attracting crowds of 20000 punters 30 or 40 years ago and who have over 100 years of history and tradition and who are making great strides on (if not off) the pitch as our Euro results show. There is just a disconnect between football at all levels in this country that the FAI seems incapable of bridging.

Maybe, but its difficult to see how the situation will change with LOL without structural change. It's a bit of a catch 22. THe clubs need more revenue to hold on to better players to improve standards, but the players need an incentive to stay and the punters want a better quality product before they are likely to come and watch. The situation 40 years ago was very different, there was effectively no competition. Today EPL and Cl games are on the telly and its a lot easier and more affordable to get over to the UK to follow teams there. Of course we have to respect tradition, but simple economics will dictate the future of LOL clubs not sentiment.

[TrapAPony]

Similar situation to O'Hara here:
Lucas Barrios, an Argentinian who plays for Dortmund and who's mother is from Paraguay.

And that's an offer of a trip to the World Cup!

Ya, they already have two Argentinian's in their current squad ie. Jonathan Santana (Wolfsburg) & Nestor Ortigoza (Argentinos Juniors) although one of their parents are Paraguayan. Seem him a few times for Borussia Dortmund, he's a decent striker & should go for it.

[SkStu]

Maybe, but its difficult to see how the situation will change with LOL without structural change. It's a bit of a catch 22. THe clubs need more revenue to hold on to better players to improve standards, but the players need an incentive to stay and the punters want a better quality product before they are likely to come and watch. The situation 40 years ago was very different, there was effectively no competition. Today EPL and Cl games are on the telly and its a lot easier and more affordable to get over to the UK to follow teams there. Of course we have to respect tradition, but simple economics will dictate the future of LOL clubs not sentiment.

i think the fact that you continue to refer to it as LOL shows what the domestic game is up against.

Against my better judgement ill entertain you as a serious poster - my point is not that we should hold on to players in the League. With the competition you mention we should aim to be a selling league - like the better Scandinavian leagues. What we should do, and this is where it entails the co-operation of the nurseries and the FAI, is to ensure that our young players do not get shipped out to British teams as young as 14 or 15 and instead get filtered through local development centres (by local coaches with emphasis on technique instead of win at all costs), into LOI teams where they learn the game and are then sold on for decent fees (then the cycle of facility development-good players-good crowds-euro success can truly begin). The best of the best young players can still move across, i have no problem with that but the way the system works now does not serve our youngest players or the international team well. Our players are coached by British coaches, the British way. It would be nice if we could coach players our own way and stop milking off the FA and the SFA. As i said in my original post, ive accepted that im ****ing against the wind here and that there is no real desire for change from anyone except some LOI fans. What im trying to present is a logical case that shows how football in this country at ALL levels could improve.

Also, you said "its a lot easier and more affordable to get over to the UK to follow teams there". Thats just not true.

[Gather round]

iAlso, you said "its a lot easier and more affordable to get over to the UK to follow teams there". Thats just not true

I think TP means it's easier to get to Britain than it was (before no-frills air travel), not that Britain is easier to reach than your nearest LoI ground.

[Straightstory]

There is no good reason to get rid of clubs that were regularly attracting crowds of 20000 punters 30 or 40 years ago
I'm following League of I football for almost forty years, and this '20,000 regular crowds' thing is a myth. The main difference I see is that domestic football used to have a much higher profile in the media. Columnists like Con Houlihan would regularly write about the domestic game. Have you ever read anything about the League from the likes of, for example, Tom Humphries or Keith Duggan in the Irish Times? Dublin is a major European capital, and it's bigger clubs (we can discount the likes of Sporting Fingal and UCD) SHOULD be able to attract at least 10,000 regularly. The reason they don't is that, as far as I can see, Irish sports fans people are, as has been often mentioned here, mostly event junkies. They like the 'big occasion'. They cannot see that if they supported their own clubs, that would make them more successful. It's a simple failure of imagination. There is nothing the clubs can do about this. The only thing which might stir the public is qualification for the Champions League Group stages or, possibly (I'm not as sure about this), the Europa League.
I agree with the rest of your post. The achievements of Irish clubs in recent years, and their huge movement up in the European rankings, considering their lack of support from the public, is astonishing.