Catalonia march for independence

[backstothewall]

The government in Madrid don't seem to have any good options. If they don't react to a UDI then Catalonia is de facto independent. If they go in with force the Catalan population will be further inflamed. If they don't go in the Castillian population will be further inflamed. If they arrest the Catalan leadership they will create a Mandela figure.

[DannyInvincible]

'Derry councillors could be set to vote on recognising an independent Catalonia': http://www.derryjournal.com/news/der...onia-1-8184163

Derry City and Strabane District Council could be set to formally recognise an independent Catalonia after a Sinn Féin councillor signalled her intention of bringing a motion to that effect before the next full Council meeting on October 26.

Caoimhe McKnight indicated she would be proposing a motion that the council back the “democratic outcome of the Catalan independence referendum” and condemn “the brutality of the Spanish police” during last Sunday’s referendum in Iberia.

Colr. McKnight will also seek a mandate to “write to the Catalan and Spanish Governments to outline the Council’s support for Catalan Independence”.

[BonnieShels]

Puigdemont about to declare independence. But will likely suspend it pending dialogue.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2017/oct/10/catalan-parliament-discusses-independence-referendum-live#59dcfd93e4b034d41ce38796

[OwlsFan]

'Derry councillors could be set to vote on recognising an independent Catalonia': http://www.derryjournal.com/news/der...onia-1-8184163

Interesting. A majority in Northern Ireland opted out of the 32 county Irish Free State and Sinn Fein up to only very recently refused to recognise that choice.

I am in two minds about Catalonia. Was Lincoln wrong to refuse to permit the Confederate State to secede from the Union (his initial refusal had little to do with slavery)? Was it right to allow Northern Ireland to secede from the Free State ? Is any part of the whole of a State entitled to declare its independence ?

[backstothewall]

Interesting. A majority in Northern Ireland opted out of the 32 county Irish Free State and Sinn Fein up to only very recently refused to recognise that choice.

I am in two minds about Catalonia. Was Lincoln wrong to refuse to permit the Confederate State to secede from the Union (his initial refusal had little to do with slavery)? Was it right to allow Northern Ireland to secede from the Free State ? Is any part of the whole of a State entitled to declare its independence ?

It wasn't Sinn Fein who refused to recognise partition. It was the constitution.

And the 6 counties never seceded from the Free State. 26 counties seceded from the UK, and the whole thing was done without any mandate from the people, who would never have provided one.

This isn't like the people of Sligo getting ideas and deciding to declare independence. Catalonia is a distinct nation which has been independent at various times through history.

Could Spain's steps backfire?

The dissolution of Catalonia's parliament and the holding of snap regional elections may appear to offer a way of defusing today's state of extreme tension, but there are plenty of reasons to doubt that such a strategy would provide a clear solution to the crisis.

The far-left CUP party has suggested that it would boycott any election imposed on the region. Other pro-independence forces might do the same. Massive street protests against any form of direct rule from Madrid can also be expected.

Mr Puigdemont has promised to call a formal vote on independence in Catalonia's parliament if Article 155 is invoked. If such a declaration were approved, the pro-independence forces could style the ballot as the election of a constituent assembly for a new republic, the next stage laid down in the pro-independence road map.

Assuming the participation of all parties, voters would be bound to interpret the election as a de facto vote on independence. If a separatist majority emerged once again, it is hard to see how the conflict could be considered closed.

It would seem Rajoy never read up on the 1918 election or the 1st Dail

[BonnieShels]

It wasn't Sinn Fein who refused to recognise partition. It was the constitution.

And the 6 counties never seceded from the Free State. 26 counties seceded from the UK, and the whole thing was done without any mandate from the people, who would never have provided one.

This isn't like the people of Sligo getting ideas and deciding to declare independence. Catalonia is a distinct nation which has been independent at various times through history.



It would seem Rajoy never read up on the 1918 election or the 1st Dail

The north actually seceded from the 32 county Free State technically for which there was provision made in the Anglo-Irish Treaty.

[backstothewall]

The north actually seceded from the 32 county Free State technically for which there was provision made in the Anglo-Irish Treaty.

The text of the treaty allows it to be argued that either NI seceded from the Irish Free State, Or that NI "opted out" of seceding along with SI. But whatever about the technicalities the de facto reality is that Southern Ireland seceded from the UK.

11. Until the expiration of one month from the passing of the Act of Parliament for the ratification of this instrument, the powers of the Parliament and the Government of the Irish Free State shall not be exercisable as respects Northern Ireland, and the provisions of the Government of Ireland Act 1920, shall, so far as they relate to Northern Ireland, remain of full force and effect, and no election shall be held for the return of members to serve in the Parliament of the Irish Free State for constituencies in Northern Ireland, unless a resolution is passed by both Houses of the Parliament of Northern Ireland in favour of the holding of such elections before the end of the said month.
12. If before the expiration of the said month, an address is presented to His Majesty by both Houses of the Parliament of Northern Ireland to that effect, the powers of the Parliament and the Government of the Irish Free State shall no longer extend to Northern Ireland, and the provisions of the Government of Ireland Act, 1920, (including those relating to the Council of Ireland) shall so far as they relate to Northern Ireland, continue to be of full force and effect, and this instrument shall have effect subject to the necessary modifications.

It's all an interesting point of comparison though. Unless I've missed one the Irish Revolution remains the last successful territorial secession to be achieved in Western Europe if you don't count breaking the 3rd Reich down into it's constituent parts in 1945. It's incredibly rare (Luxembourg 1815, Belgium 1839, Norway 1905, Finland 1917, Ireland 1922).

[backstothewall]

Declaration of Independence made by Catalan parliament. 70 votes to 10.

It's up for grabs now.

[DannyInvincible]

'Catalan election to return hung parliament: poll': https://ca.reuters.com/article/topNe...BN1E91H3-OCATP

An election in Catalonia will fail to conclusively resolve a political crisis over an independence drive in the region, the final surveys before the Dec. 21 vote showed on Friday.

The ballot will result in a hung parliament, a Metroscopia poll showed, with parties favoring unity with Spain tipped to gain a maximum of 62 seats and pro-secession factions 63, both short of a majority in the region’s 135-seat legislature.

Whilst the election probably won't prove conclusive in terms of the debate within Catalonia, and indeed Spain, it is interesting that the separatists are predicted to win one more seat than those favouring maintaining the Spanish connection.

[DannyInvincible]

Interesting. A majority in Northern Ireland opted out of the 32 county Irish Free State and Sinn Fein up to only very recently refused to recognise that choice.

From where did that majority arise though? It was manufactured through a process of gerrymandering based on an overtly sectarian head-count under the treat of UVF (and later British) violence and in brazen contravention of the democratically-expressed wish of the Irish people. (And we should remember that unionists considered themselves Irish at the time; the the Northern Irish identity didn't yet exist.) If the insinuation is that Sinn Féin are displaying double standards, I don't concur. I heard attempts in the media a while back from members of other Irish parties to try and cast Sinn Féin as hypocrites over the party's position in support of Catalan self-determination, but such efforts were either completely ignorant of the positions of other Irish parties with regard to partition up until 1998 or a bit disingenuous. As BTTW points out, the Irish constitution officially refused to recognise partition until 1998; not just Sinn Féin.

I would dispute the charge of hypocrisy because I don't think the Catalan situation is comparable to the situation in the north of Ireland in the sense that Catalonia was never colonised by a foreign government through the use of force. Catalonia was never planted by a settler-colonial community, to the best of my knowledge, with the original native inhabitants forcibly expelled from their land. Catalonia as an entity wasn't manufactured overnight via a process similar to what I've outlined above. As a distinct regional concept, it developed over time in what you might call a more organic (and completely uncontroversial) fashion. For these reasons, Catalonia wasn't and isn't in and of itself a contested territory. I don't think anyone has disputed the boundaries of Catalonia or its designation as an autonomous democratic unit.

Sinn Féin accept the validity of the will of the unionist community (who still remain a minority in Ireland), but the party's effective recognition, as of 1998, of the "principle of consent" (towards the aim of establishing and developing peace and mutual respect) didn't amount to a moral approval or legitimisation of partition or of the dismemberment of the democratic unit along sectarian paracolonial lines, which the party still ultimately seeks to overturn (through peaceful means) as they regard it as an imperial injustice inflicted upon the people of Ireland. Partition was imposed (under the threat of "terrible and immediate war" from David Lloyd George); it wasn't a free or voluntary choice made by the Irish people.

Partition was what specifically didn't happen when the colonial power left African countries like Zimbabwe (formerly Rhodesia). Would the partitioning of Rhodesia to create one state for the African majority and another for the white-settler minority have been acceptable? The process of partitioning colonised regions as a means of decolonisation is actually deemed illegitimate now by the UN.

To draw another analogy; supporting and enforcing partition against the democratic will of the Irish people was the former-day equivalent of what establishing a Volkstaat for white Afrikaaners in post-Apartheid South Africa against the will of the democratic majority of South Africans would have been in the latter day. This would have been exceptionally contentious for obvious reasons had it been allowed to happen in South Africa, yet it's exactly what happened in Ireland. It's no surprise the constitution refused to recognise for so long what has essentially been an imperial anomaly.

Catalonia is a completely different situation that features none of the complexities that come with being a former colony. It's a fairly straightforward case of a recognised autonomous community or nation of people (who share a collective sense of self-consciousness) having an internal debate amongst themselves, in respect of the future of their own undisputed territory, with about half of them seeking self-determination and the other half seeking to maintain a constitutional connection to Spain.

26 counties seceded from the UK, and the whole thing was done without any mandate from the people, who would never have provided one.

You mean partition was done without a mandate? The people's will for national independence was democratically expressed in 1918.

[backstothewall]

You mean partition was done without a mandate? The people's will for national independence was democratically expressed in 1918.

Yes. There was a clear mandate for independence. None at all for partition

[backstothewall]

Anyway back to the matter at hand...

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/1221/92...ain-catalonia/

Ball firmly back in Madrids side of the court. This was never even a political gamble. It was a political equivilant of a snooze button. The problem wasn't going to go away, but could be avoided temporarily.

The 2 available options are a breakup of Spain (and significant damage to the Spanish economy) or the military putting this movement down, with the likelihood of suspension from the EU (and massive damage to the Spanish economy).

Rajoy is caught between the devil and the deep blue sea. But the Catalans surely must be offered a proper binding referendum.

My first thoughts are that it might suit all concerned to move towards some sort of dual constitutional monarchy in personal union. Something similar to Austria-Hungary after the end of the Habsburg Empire.