Catalonia march for independence

[DannyInvincible]

A region and a People have the right to make their own mistakes.

How do we distinguish regions and peoples? Not all persons within a set defined - possibly arbitrarily - as a people will subscribe to a single orthodox. Why not go full hog and accord this right to make mistakes to individual persons?

[Mr A]

On the same theme as Danny- where do you draw the borders? What if sub regions of Catalonia don't like the idea and want to stay in Spain? Could they have their own vote and then remain? And what if a sub region of that sub region decided stuff the lot of ye we want to be independent of both?

Could get pretty messy.

And the independent state of certain sections of East Galway City won't stand for it.

[peadar1987]

Yes, you have to draw the line somewhere, I shouldn't be able to declare my flat an independent monarchy where not supporting Bray is punishable by public flogging. However, at the other end of the scale, should the Estonian people have just been happy to be ruled from Moscow? Sub-regions of Ireland ended up staying part of the UK? Should we have abandoned the idea of independence because of these regions and the potential for messiness? There's a sensible cut-off point, and it's not the exact same in every situation. However, just because there's no hard and fast rule for what constitutes a distinct ethnic group, or a nation of people, doesn't mean that things would be better if we just transferred all of the sovereign powers of every country to Berlin.

[BonnieShels]

Is that not as good a reason as any?

Well my issue with these scenarios is that it's generally with how a Catalonian always instigates this conversation whether and how I must agree with them. And when I don't they get snotty and whiny.

[culloty82]

On the same theme as Danny- where do you draw the borders? What if sub regions of Catalonia don't like the idea and want to stay in Spain? Could they have their own vote and then remain? And what if a sub region of that sub region decided stuff the lot of ye we want to be independent of both?

Could get pretty messy.

And the independent state of certain sections of East Galway City won't stand for it.

That was more of an issue in Quebec, where you had clear geographic Anglophone areas that planned to break away if the referendum had passed. In Catalonia, the Spanish community is spread throughout the province, so any regional difficulty would be unlikely to arise. Mypost's mention of Montenegro is most relevant here - the UN and EU set the bar at 55%, which was just barely met, and Serbia accepted the outcome. The problem here is that when the new Spanish Constitution came in after Franco's death - it outlawed even the possibility of votes in any region, so it is the democratic principle that's at stake here, rath er than the eventual outcome.

[mypost]

Yes, you have to draw the line somewhere, I shouldn't be able to declare my flat an independent monarchy where not supporting Bray is punishable by public flogging. However, at the other end of the scale, should the Estonian people have just been happy to be ruled from Moscow? Sub-regions of Ireland ended up staying part of the UK? Should we have abandoned the idea of independence because of these regions and the potential for messiness? There's a sensible cut-off point, and it's not the exact same in every situation.

Estonia and the other Baltic nations were officially recognised countries before 1945. As was most of the countries that comprised Yugoslavia. Kosovo was a rebel province, that simply declared itself independent without going through either a political process or a democratic process. That declaration is not legal, and so I don't recognise it. And the "ethnic cleansing antics" that went on in the region over the years, were not one-sided either.

In Catalonia, the Spanish community is spread throughout the province, so any regional difficulty would be unlikely to arise. Mypost's mention of Montenegro is most relevant here - the UN and EU set the bar at 55%, which was just barely met, and Serbia accepted the outcome. The problem here is that when the new Spanish Constitution came in after Franco's death - it outlawed even the possibility of votes in any region, so it is the democratic principle that's at stake here, rath er than the eventual outcome.

Even if votes were permitted, the other issue is that it's not simply the Spanish side of the region Barcelona's decision to make. The rest of Catalonia seems quite happy living in France and Spain.

[peadar1987]

Estonia and the other Baltic nations were officially recognised countries before 1945. As was most of the countries that comprised Yugoslavia. Kosovo was a rebel province, that simply declared itself independent without going through either a political process or a democratic process. That declaration is not legal, and so I don't recognise it. And the "ethnic cleansing antics" that went on in the region over the years, were not one-sided either.

Before the breakup of the Soviet Union, Estonia had been a nation state for 21 years in total, from 1918 until 1939. Before that it had been part of the Russian Empire, East Prussia, a Lithuanian-Polish confederacy, and Sweden, among others, as a region with significant linguistic, cultural, and ethnic heritage of its own. So a bit like Catalunya is today. Or a bit like Kosovo, which is primarily ethnic Albanian, whereas Serbia is, well, Serbian, as I'm sure you know.

Ireland hadn't been independent in 800 years before 1922.

Nations have always emerged and disappeared. Deciding whether a people have the right to self-determination based on whether or not they was a Grand Duchy with significant autonomy in that region in 1722 isn't exactly the best way of going about things.

Even if votes were permitted, the other issue is that it's not simply the Spanish side of the region Barcelona's decision to make. The rest of Catalonia seems quite happy living in France and Spain.

Again, the potential for things to be less than perfectly clean isn't the best reason for keeping Catalunya part of Spain. The path to an independent Catalunya, if that's what significant proportions of the people in the region wanted, would probably involve very complicated negotiations about which regions stayed in Spain, which stayed in France, and which wanted to join the Catalan Republic, or whatever they called it. The fact that Perpignan might well choose of their own free will to remain part of France shouldn't be a deal-breaker for secession of other regions from Spain, in the same way that the choice of the Six Counties to remain part of the UK shouldn't have meant that Galway, Cork, and Tipperary should have their wish for independence ignored.

[Charlie Darwin]

Estonia and the other Baltic nations were officially recognised countries before 1945. As was most of the countries that comprised Yugoslavia. Kosovo was a rebel province, that simply declared itself independent without going through either a political process or a democratic process. That declaration is not legal, and so I don't recognise it.

I'm sure they're devastated.

[nigel-harps1954]

Most of all, I love how they show their support for each other by not singing their national anthem.

[culloty82]

A regional election on November 25th will show where things stand. Meanwhile, Venice wants to break away from Italy.

[Charlie Darwin]

Catalans have handed a majority to parties backing independence from Spain, strengthening the region's drive for a referendum on secession in defiance of Spanish prime minister Mariano Rajoy, the first exit poll showed.Catalan president Artur Mas, who called early elections to force the debate on independence, won between 54 and 57 of the 135 seats in the regional assembly for his Convergencia i Unio party, according to estimate by Spanish broadcaster TV3, funded by the regional Catalan government.

The Separatist Catalan Republican Left won between 20 and 23 seats. Two smaller parties that also back a referendum secured at least 15 seats between them.
...

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/1125/breaking17.html

[BonnieShels]

And now that that's all over nothing will happen.

[culloty82]

And now that that's all over nothing will happen.

Sunday's "poll" may have been a sham, but it has left the region facing two potential follow-ups: Either Rajoy, the Spanish PM allows a real referendum, or local elections, focused on independence will be held, after which a nationalist government would simply declare independence, so the first option seems the easier for Madrid to win.

[BonnieShels]

Well, my post is from 2012 above.

And there's no way a Catalonian Govt will secede unilaterally.

[BonnieShels]

So the Spanish authorities doing their best to increase support-levels for Catalan independence.

Some disgraceful scenes coming in from Barcelona.