Catalonia march for independence

[culloty82]

1.5 million on the streets of Barcelona tonight, in a march demanding a vote on independence. Even among the nationalists, the ruling CiU just wants greater autonomy, while the ERC wants a Catalan Republic. Of course, even if Madrid allowed a referendum vote, questions such as EU membership and continuing in the euro would be thorny legal issues.

[BonnieShels]

And hilarious.

I think Catalonians are awful great craic. Such bull spouted when ya chat to them for their reasoning for wanting independence. It amounts to usually "Just cos"

[Mr A]

Funny how often it's richer regions that want to go their own way..

[BonnieShels]

Funny how often it's richer regions that want to go their own way..

It's richer now. But was it always thus?

I love the logic applied to Canada every time Quebec open their stupid mouths...

Basically Alberta is the financial engine of the Nation now and Ontario as the largest Province gobble up the cash. But Alberta don't "really" mind because over the years Ontario was the Nation's engine and contributed to the growth of the other Provinces. Quebec have done squat. Shut up Quebec. That's the summary of an article I read in the National Post in 2009 that stuck with me.

Catalonia like Quebec weren't always as rich as they are now. But as soon as they have a bit of cash... vamos.

I don't like the snooty self-serving Catalan attitude with this weird anti-Castillian vibe when you ask were things are in Castillian (Spanish) or when they go on and on and on and on about how they should be independent and how they are screwed by Madrid and how they prop up the poorer regions... blah blah blah.

I never warmed to Barcelona as a city as a result. Much prefer Madrid.

[pineapple stu]

Funny how often it's richer regions that want to go their own way..

So rich it needed a bailout last month?

Dunno what they really expect to change in an independent Catalonia. Fewer El Clasicos too.

[osarusan]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0911/breaking57.html

Hundreds of thousands of Catalans took to the streets of Barcelona today in an unprecedented show of mass support for autonomy from Madrid, blaming Spain's economic crisis for dragging their wealthy region down.

Surging unemployment and financial disarray have stoked a fever of separatism in Catalonia, a comparatively prosperous part of Spain whose leaders say their wealth is being sucked dry by the central government.
...
Economists calculate Catalans pay at least €12 billion more in taxes per year to Madrid than they receive back for services like schools and hospitals.

Many Catalans say the figure - difficult to calculate because of a complex system of transfers - is even higher, up to €16 billion.

[DaveyCakes]

I wonder how many of the people complaining about how much money Catalonia contributes to the national exchequer would complain about higher income tax for richer individuals....

[DaveyCakes]

I don't like the snooty self-serving Catalan attitude with this weird anti-Castillian vibe when you ask were things are in Castillian (Spanish) or when they go on and on and on and on about how they should be independent and how they are screwed by Madrid and how they prop up the poorer regions... blah blah blah.

I never warmed to Barcelona as a city as a result. Much prefer Madrid.

That's exactly how I felt about Barcelona. It seemed as if everything had to be reduced to a contest with Madrid, be it football, architecture, nightlife, whatever...they're absolutely obsessed in the most petty way imaginable.

[mypost]

Dunno what they really expect to change in an independent Catalonia. Fewer El Clasicos too.

Ah no, they still want to be in the Spanish League, so they can hold their propaganda rally big game against Real Madrid every year. Life in Barcelona would have no meaning if Real Madrid were not around. Quite what the French part of Catalonia makes of the prospect is open to question.

On the wider question, they can't have independence. If Madrid gave it to them, then next would be the Basques, then the Galicians, Andalucians, etc etc, and you would have a break up of Spain similiar to that of Yugoslavia. It's up to Madrid to keep them all together, and regional chaos at bay.

[Charlie Darwin]

And hilarious.

I think Catalonians are awful great craic. Such bull spouted when ya chat to them for their reasoning for wanting independence. It amounts to usually "Just cos"

Is that not as good a reason as any?

[superfrank]

I was reading the other day that the Basque Country is actually on the up economically (economic growth, GDP higher than the EU average, iirc), running completely contrary to the rest of Spain, yet there hasn't been a surge in the demand for independence there.

Catalonia used to be the economic powerhouse of Spain and it's only been since the beginning of the current crisis that the Madrid region overtook it. Of course, when things were going well, they had less interest in pulling away.

Catalans, Basques and Galicians are different culturally and linguistically from Castillians and I support their respective independence desires for those reasons.

Also, Barca's president said the other day that they'd continue in La Liga if the region gains independence. He didn't give any good reason why, just that Barca wants to continue with it's age-old rivals. Nothing to do with loss of revenue and competitiveness or difficulty for European football. He likened it to Monaco's position in France, but, afaik, Monaco has some kind of political connection with France. Even for the likes of Derry, considering that all citizens born in NI are entitled to Irish passports, and Berwick, which is part of the same looser federation, there are some political connections between the country the team is from and the one they play in.

I'm not sure on the specifics in the respective situations, but the only other similar situations are the likes of FC Andorra in Spain, San Marino in Italy and the Liechtensteiner teams in Switzerland. For them, though, it seems like the countries are too small to support a league of their own. To suggest that Catalonia, with 7.5m people, couldn't support a national league is ridiculous. Barca's position is based on nothing more than financial reasons.

[ped_ped]

You want independence beacuse you feel you're distinct, not for any overarcing reason. How many people would rather Ireland stayed with Britain and Britain just treat us a bit more fairly? A certain percantage, sure, but seriously in the minority. We sought independence because we felt we were seperate. We were allowed varying degrees of self-determination when we became the Free State - why did we become a Republic?

[peadar1987]

A region and a People have the right to make their own mistakes. It was a common opinion in Victorian Britain that the Irish were unfit to govern themselves. Now, as correct as that eventually turned out to be, the whole "white man's burden", better off with London/Madrid/Paris/Washington/whoever keeping hold of the reins argument isn't one that washes with me. Unless Catalunya were going to commit human rights abuses, if they're sufficiently in favour of independence, that's their decision to make.

[mypost]

A region and a People have the right to make their own mistakes. if they're sufficiently in favour of independence, that's their decision to make.

No it isn't. You can't just suddenly turn up one day, do a "Kosovo", then start demanding rights and recognition. It's a bit more complicated than that. Others have to have their say too, and regional consequences have to be factored into. Montenegro wanted independence from Serbia, and went through the relevant process calmly and correctly. So unlike Kosovo, they're entitled to their independence.

Barcelona wants independence from Madrid, but what do Perpignan want? Bilbao wants independence, but what do Biarritz want? If Madrid start giving them an inch, the rest in Spain will want a mile. Not every country can have as smooth a break up as Czechoslovakia.

[peadar1987]

I disagree. I think the only real "relevant process" is a democratic mandate from the people. Now once the people have decided that they want independence, there are right and wrong ways of going about it, that's true.

And on the Kosovo subject, I think they're perfectly entitled to independence from Belgrade after their "ethnic cleansing" antics.