AIPL plans revealed

[Macy]

I'm really not! Whats different between the criteria the FAI apply (applied) and those PO would?
No geographical aspect to FAI or IFA licencing. Licencing has critrea that if it's met means you go up if you're good enough on the pitch. Very different from the type of pick P1 propose to make.

[dublinred]

I'll go back to a point I made previously, it difficult to understand why anybody is taking this proposal seriously. It really is pie in the sky stuff that makes its promoters look as if they are not living in the real world.

A 10-team league with no PnR for 3 years. We'll all be q-ing up for that TV coverage!!! not

I agree it seems ridulous , but they have got a website www.aipl.ie check out all the positive media coverage clippings that must of cost them a fortune in lucnhs and jollies so they are spending money.

[GavinZac]

No geographical aspect to FAI or IFA licencing. Licencing has critrea that if it's met means you go up if you're good enough on the pitch. Very different from the type of pick P1 propose to make.

You think geography had nothing to do with Galway in the Premier and Dundalk in the First? It would have been dressed up as potential marketability or something along those lines.

[Mr A]

You think geography had nothing to do with Galway in the Premier and Dundalk in the First? It would have been dressed up as potential marketability or something along those lines.

The rules for the new FAI league were clearly set out and Dundalk hadn't a hope because they had racked up a series of mid table finishes in D1. It was a relatively clear and transparent process (although obviously it could have been done better) despite the controversy around it.

Platinum 1 have already picked their clubs without any sort of credible process.

[jebus]

You think geography had nothing to do with Galway in the Premier and Dundalk in the First? It would have been dressed up as potential marketability or something along those lines.

Big difference between making a choice on your initial set up like the FAI did, and reviewing it with each and every possible promotion as Platinum One have said they will do

[Macy]

You think geography had nothing to do with Galway in the Premier and Dundalk in the First? It would have been dressed up as potential marketability or something along those lines.
Dundalk didn't get the points to finish ahead of Galway. If they'd more points they would've got in. But as Jebus says, P1 want to assess this every time there's a potential promotion rather than having a set criteria that must be met.

[dublinred]

Big difference between making a choice on your initial set up like the FAI did, and reviewing it with each and every possible promotion as Platinum One have said they will do

Assume this goes ahead and Sligo Rovers are not allowed in and still exist after a few years in the wilderness and get new investors on board with a plan to get promoted and invest in good players on 2/3 year contracts with a view to planning ahead and reaping the greater financial rewards and the 150% increase in attendances in the top division and in the meantime win the lower divsion by 20 points , Linfield and Glentoran have bad season and finish bottom , what happens next?

[GavinZac]

Dundalk didn't get the points to finish ahead of Galway. If they'd more points they would've got in. But as Jebus says, P1 want to assess this every time there's a potential promotion rather than having a set criteria that must be met.

They have suggested that they might do that if they go with this particular plan.

As I said, its almost like democratic process. If enough fans and football people complain about it, I'm sure they'd listen; they are marketing a product after all. Personally I think we've passed that watershed in terms of picking and choosing teams in the league and we have done as long as i can remember anyway - teams were 'elected' to the league for decades.

Personally I would prefer a proper pyramidal system all the way down to county junior leagues like in England. Unfortunately football is so fractured on this island I have no idea if that'll ever happen. However, I see this as, for the most part, being an improvement for Irish football. We've been wishing and hoping for years that business people would take an interest, that TV would take an interest, that prize money could fund full time football, that we could finally see a professional league. Its not perfect, but here it is, and nows the time to get on board and start constructively criticising rather than moaning because you don't reckon your own club will ever reach the 'standard' of clubs which are their peers!

[jebus]

They have suggested that they might do that if they go with this particular plan.

They have said they are in this for the money (fair enough), let's say Cork finish bottom three seasons in a row and Cobh win the promotion playoff three seasons in a row, can you ever see a time that anyone would see Cobh as being more capable of making money than Cork, if not then why would Platinum One let them into their league at Cork's expense? All the internet petitions in the world wouldn't change a buisness man's mind in relation to this.

Furthermore I can't see why Platinum One would pump a shed load of money into bringing Limerick FC (nice that they got our name wrong in the proposal by the way)up to AIPL standards and then replace us with a club like Monaghan, where they would have to pump an equal or greater amount of money into the club to bring them up to speed.

This isn't some pie in the sky talk Gav, this is a serious criticism of the proposed system and one that needs to be addressed, until it is people will keep talking about it.

This has hopefully gone someway to answering londonred's question about what happens if Sligo win promotion and Linfield are relegated too

[Louth4sam]

The rules for the new FAI league were clearly set out and Dundalk hadn't a hope because they had racked up a series of mid table finishes in D1. It was a relatively clear and transparent process (although obviously it could have been done better) despite the controversy around it.

Platinum 1 have already picked their clubs without any sort of credible process.

Yeah we finished up near the top of the off the field stuff but got screwed by our league positions over the previous four years. Since this is a brand new league and as limerick are being chosen despite having a worse record over the last few years than Dundalk one could only imagine that Platinum 1 are choosing clubs due to geographical reasons.

[Dodge]

Dundalk didn't get the points to finish ahead of Galway. If they'd more points they would've got in. But as Jebus says, P1 want to assess this every time there's a potential promotion rather than having a set criteria that must be met.
I'm not sure this is true. I'm going through it page by page picking out some of the worst bits but they do say "Clubs would need to meet very strict Licensing criteria as set by UEFA through the Associations Club Licensing Departments, to qualify for the AIPL including meeting financial demands that would protect the league against unanticipated difficulties"

While this would seem to say they'll use the sme licensing rules as currently, the last line should scare clubs that if this thign doesn't work, they're paying for it.

When I'm done I'll post all my nitpicking here

[SMorgan]

The rules for the new FAI league were clearly set out and Dundalk hadn't a hope because they had racked up a series of mid table finishes in D1. It was a relatively clear and transparent process (although obviously it could have been done better) despite the controversy around it.

Platinum 1 have already picked their clubs without any sort of credible process.

What was also very transparent was the presentation, by an Eircom league club, of facilities and sturctures of a junior club as their own. But we digress.

[dublinred]

Because the people who stand to make most out of it want to make their bucks? Another couple of clubs in trouble due to overspending makes it a prime time to come in as the white knights....

Eircom gone as well now , beginning to take shape.

[GavinZac]

Eircom gone as well now , beginning to take shape.

http://breakingnews.ie/sport/mhqlausngbmh/

Grow up.

[dublinred]

http://breakingnews.ie/sport/mhqlausngbmh/

Grow up.

It was news at the time , given that the Aussies who own Eircom are in trouble at the moment wouldn't be too surprised as they reviewing their irish operations. Heard some news on the AIPL this morning and it looks like a done deal , note that not one of the irish journalists has questioned the proposals also expect a few press releases in the next couple of days whilst the agm is going on.

[deecay]

It was news at the time , given that the Aussies who own Eircom are in trouble at the moment wouldn't be too surprised as they reviewing their irish operations. Heard some news on the AIPL this morning and it looks like a done deal , note that not one of the irish journalists has questioned the proposals also expect a few press releases in the next couple of days whilst the agm is going on.
In what way does what you heard affect Rovers?

[Rovers Maniac]

In what way does what you heard affect Rovers?

I heard that Sligo Rovers were first Reserve for the new league of Ireland. Depends if limerick can get their ground up to standard in time. Looks like a 2010 kick off.

[Steve Bruce]

The fact that Platinum One will be assessing if clubs are meeting their standards means that the likes of Linfield will never get relegated, even if that means they keep a suitably good team from getting promoted.

[jebus]

I heard that Sligo Rovers were first Reserve for the new league of Ireland. Depends if limerick can get their ground up to standard in time. Looks like a 2010 kick off.

Source?

[Dodge]

Drugs and booze I reckon

[Rovers Maniac]

Source?

What do you want to do start naming close associates or contacts or even some of my friends on an internet forum? Sure i may as tell you who i am or put my mobile on here. :rolleyes:

By the way i think is a very good chance that we will see soccer played Thomond because i can't see you develpoing Jackman to a high enough standard that will be able to deal with the projected crowds the new league will bring.

[jebus]

What do you want to do start naming close associates or contacts or even some of my friends on an internet forum? Sure i may as tell you who i am or put my mobile on here. :rolleyes:

There is a rule saying you have to back up your claims on this forum you know. It's to stop people saying things like, 'I heard from a source that Sligo was merging with Monaghan and forming Monigo FC, a team that plays on the Blasket Islands'


By the way i think is a very good chance that we will see soccer played Thomond because i can't see you develpoing Jackman to a high enough standard that will be able to deal with the projected crowds the new league will bring.

I know this, we've talked about it on the Limerick forum

[Rovers Maniac]

There is a rule saying you have to back up your claims on this forum you know. It's to stop people saying things like, 'I heard from a source that Sligo was merging with Monaghan and forming Monigo FC, a team that plays on the Blasket Islands'



I know this, we've talked about it on the Limerick forum

To be honest jeebus i don't want to give away my contacts mate i would hope that you would understand this. You can make fun of my factual information by PM but please don't post rubbish like above as you are bringing down the not just you and me but the whole of foot down with you. Seriously guys get a grip.

[jebus]

To be honest jeebus i don't want to give away my contacts mate i would hope that you would understand this. You can make fun of my factual information by PM but please don't post rubbish like above as you are bringing down the not just you and me but the whole of foot down with you. Seriously guys get a grip.

Factual information? :D All hail Rovers Maniac, the new, less aggressive, NY Hoop :D:D

[Lux Interior]

the problem with the national league is that people in counties without teams have no affintity for it, which is where the GAA works so well playing on the county pride etc etc.

Is this suggestion based on an all-Ireland model? There is no real "county pride" amongst a sizeable Irish League hardcore and I would extend that to the wider populace, particularly in 'Unionist' areas where the feel for county is not as strong as that within the GAA fraternity.

However, it raises an interesting discussion. 'Franchise football' may be the only long-term viable 'solution' to the woes of football on this island but I recall the opposition and indifference to a possible 'Belfast United' (whose demograph would have been a pretzel-munching BT9 conglomerate). Therefore, I think we need to rebrand and aim not for the stars but for a cloud of nebulous dust this side of Alpha Centauri, that is: a 12-team all-island league, where each team can pull in a regular 4-5000 punters.

No franchises, though. There is enough latent support out there to make this workable.

[thedoyler]

Is this suggestion based on an all-Ireland model? There is no real "county pride" amongst a sizeable Irish League hardcore and I would extend that to the wider populace, particularly in 'Unionist' areas where the feel for county is not as strong as that within the GAA fraternity.

However, it raises an interesting discussion. 'Franchise football' may be the only long-term viable 'solution' to the woes of football on this island but I recall the opposition and indifference to a possible 'Belfast United' (whose demograph would have been a pretzel-munching BT9 conglomerate). Therefore, I think we need to rebrand and aim not for the stars but for a cloud of nebulous dust this side of Alpha Centauri, that is: a 12-team all-island league, where each team can pull in a regular 4-5000 punters.

No franchises, though. There is enough latent support out there to make this workable.


Im just speaking from experience of people from counties such as carlow, kerry etc in college who have a genuine interest in football but feel they have no one to follow...rich to see cork fans heavily in favour of these 'plans' which could potentially drive other clubs out of existence they'd know all about that given their city's history of sustaining clubs, strange they wouldn't be a bit more understanding to the plight of clubs being left out. :(. I mean from a pure catchement area point of view i remember a study we read in school that there is approx 130k people living within 15 mins drive of bray, plus all this new development down by the sea, gives bray as big a potential fanbase theoretically at least as limerick, galway and derry. For me both leagues should be fully integrated or nothing should happen at all, since the former is unlikely then we'll have to work with what we have and not have a 3rd party trying to fix things. Having heard the story from drury and one of his men in the company it appears the main motivation is money and thats a dangerous way to go about things.

[dcfcsteve]

I mean from a pure catchement area point of view i remember a study we read in school that there is approx 130k people living within 15 mins drive of bray, plus all this new development down by the sea, gives bray as big a potential fanbase theoretically at least as limerick, galway and derry.

No way does Bray have the same potential fanbase as distinct citiies

Most of the 130,000 people within 15mins drive (is that at rush hour...?) of Bray wouldn't even consider themselves as being from or living in the town.

[SMorgan]

No way does Bray have the same potential fanbase as distinct citiies

Most of the 130,000 people within 15mins drive (is that at rush hour...?) of Bray wouldn't even consider themselves as being from or living in the town.

Well its certainly for Jim Roddy and Fintan Drury to consider when they sit down to hand pick the teams that are to go out of existance and those that play in their fantasy league.

[Macy]

Most of the 130,000 people within 15mins drive (is that at rush hour...?) of Bray wouldn't even consider themselves as being from or living in the town.
The may not consider themselves from Bray, but I think you may be underestimating the amount of building that's gone on surrounding Bray, and in the rest of North Wicklow, never mind heading back in towards town. Everyone is only talking about potential, but now the Roddyites want to redefine potential too?

[dublinred]

Well its certainly for Jim Roddy and Fintan Drury to consider when they sit down to hand pick the teams that are to go out of existance and those that play in their fantasy league.

Agree on this one , I would favour an AIL but not this proposal as it is full of cracks and disagree with the cherry picking ,all clubs attract fans from outside their own town and county so stupid to use the towns population as a criteria.

The top leagues in the world, premiership,la liga,serie a , championship and bundersleague all have circa 20 teams in them with promotion and relegation I have yet to see a succesful 10 team league.

[endabob1]

Ireland does not have the population to run a professional 20 team league, it is never going to compete with Serie A, Bundesliega, Premiership etc..
The 10 team league is a starting block which will expand if it is succesful, I would be amazed if it ever went above 12 teams which I agree is not ideal, playing each other 3/4 times in a season is less satisfactory than the "proper" home and away set up but it works relatively well in Croatia, Denmark, Israel & Scotland while Switzerland & Austria have 10 team leagues, without looking their co-efficients up I would guess that all the above leagues are ranked higher the either the Eircom or Irish Leagues.

[Buller]

Agree on this one , I would favour an AIL but not this proposal as it is full of cracks and disagree with the cherry picking ,all clubs attract fans from outside their own town and county so stupid to use the towns population as a criteria.
The top leagues in the world, premiership,la liga,serie a , championship and bundersleague all have circa 20 teams in them with promotion and relegation I have yet to see a succesful 10 team league.

Those countries have populations which can support that amount of teams... Although I do agree, a 12 team league would be much less repetitive.

[GavinZac]

The top leagues in the world, premiership,la liga,serie a , championship and bundersleague all have circa 20 teams in them with promotion and relegation I have yet to see a succesful 10 team league.
Ok, do the maths - whats the population covered for each team in those leagues? we'll take the closest, the Premiership, which is actually not doing fantastic in terms of attendances lately.

Here's each team with its immediate local area population alongside it - most of these will be underestimates as they are only the direct surroundings of the club - so no 'Man U fans from London' or indeed from Blackburn counted. In a few places I've taken figures for the local Borough, which would include conurbations of the town proper - in reality these still underestimate the local population as they would have suburbs beyond. London teams suffer here because I've gone with just the local borough and not the suburbs beyond, and several of the clubs would therefore split a borough from which they don't actually draw most of their fans anyway. Teams whose immediate locality has been split by local rivals within the Premiership indicated by a star, and I've done the divisions myself.

Arsenal (North London) 521,000*
Aston Villa (Birmingham) 1,006,500
Blackburn (Blackburn-Darwen) 141,200
Bolton (Bolton) 262,400
Chelsea (Kensington) 178,000
Everton (Liverpool) 551,545*
Fulham (Ham'th-Fulham) 171,400
Hull (Kingston East Riding) 587,100
Liverpool (Liverpool) 551,545*
Man City (Greater Manchester, with Wigan removed) 1,000,000*
Man Utd (Greater Manchester, with Wigan removed) 1,000,000*
Middlesbrough (M'boro-Redcar) 270,000
Newcastle (Tyneside) 879,996
Portsmouth (Portsmouth) 422,252
Stoke (Potteries) 362,403
Sunderland (City of Sunderland) 280,807
Tottenham (North London) 521,000*
West Ham (New Ham-Hackney) 456,400
West Brom (Sandwell) 287,600
Wigan (Metro Wigan) 305,500

That gives us a total immediate area population of 9,756,648 for the 20 clubs currently in the Premier League - and thats with low-estimate figures and no counting of day trippers from our fair isle! :D More importantly, that gives us an average urban area of 487,832 per club.

Now lets see a similar comparison for the Eircom League, as it stands. I'm going to be a lot more generous and include things like counties, and divide up Dublin as if 25% of them want to see UCD. I won't include Shelbourne to divide up Dublin further - fair's fair, they're relegated at the moment, its not often Stoke are in the Premiership either but I wouldn't have included Reading in dividing London. I'm not going to be as cruel as to count the top 20 clubs - I'll go with the 12, as I imagine even you don't want to advocate a larger league. Do you?

Bohs (Greater Dublin) 261,442*
Bray (Bray & Environs) 32,000
Cork City (Metropolitan Cork) 274,000
Cobh (Cobh & Environs) 12,887
Derry (Londonderry) 90,663
Drogheda (Drogheda) 28,973
Finn Harps (County Donegal) 146,956
Galway Utd (County Galway) 231,035
Sligo (County Sligo) 60,894
Shamrock Rovers (Greater Dublin) 261,442*
St. Pats (Greater Dublin) 261,442*
UCD (Greater Dublin 261,442*

This gives us a total catchment area population of 1,923,176 for the Premier Div - roughly 20% of that in the EPL. I find that figure very interesting, because roughly 20% of the teams in the EPL - 4 - is the same number of clubs that appear safe in their professional status this year in the Premier (Cork, Bohs, Pats, Drogs - the experiments in Sligo and Galway look well and truly over for the time being). No coincidence, I feel.

Again revealing is the average catchment area of clubs in the LOI Premier, at 160,264. This, being very generous and taking county figures rather than figures for towns - replacing counties with the towns of the clubs gives us an average of 131585. The larger figure, 160,264, is roughly 33% of that low-estimate average figure in England, which of course is no where near accurate given the number of paddies on planes and daytrippers in general. Even fulfilling their entire potential, clubs in Ireland can only ever be 33% as strong as equivilant English clubs - this before the factors we all know only too well which further dampen our support.

As you can see, a rose garden it is not. For football on this island to succeed, it needs each club perform to its potential through marketing, improvement of facilities, improvement of playing staff, and professionalism in general. It needs the boost of the 2nd largest city on the island competing with the first (I'm too weary at this stage to work out the consequences of that - maybe a job for someone in Platinum One, as I'm sure they're out there reading). And it needs to accept that it simply cannot be England. It needs cut its own cloth. The Bundesliga, the Premiership or Serie A might work with 18-20 teams, but they've got 18-20 catchment areas 3 times as large on average as our own. It ridiculous to use those as targets, and a telling comparison that the other professional game on this island (rugby) supports 4 franchise funded teams and one of those a development team with half the funding.

[jinxy lilywhite]

Those stats are as ridiculous as the AIPL. They could of been plucked from anywhere. A 10-12 team league is too small. Should be 16. The island of ireland have a population of 5.5m and according to you "being generous" only 1.9m have direct access to it.
Stats can be used to prove any point. I'd take that with a very big pinch of Salt. Actually more of a scoop

[GavinZac]

Those stats are as ridiculous as the AIPL. They could of been plucked from anywhere.They're all from the last censuses of England (2001) and Ireland (2006) respectively. England's will have risen in the same way ours has in that time too.

A 10-12 team league is too small. Should be 16. The island of ireland have a population of 5.5m and according to you "being generous" only 1.9m have direct access to it.To the Eircom League Premier Division at the moment, yes, only 1.9 million of the 4 million in the ROI have access to the top division. In the same way that only half of England's 20 million inhabitants have access to the top division. In those respects, that 50%, the situation is very similar at the moment.

Stats can be used to prove any point. I'd take that with a very big pinch of Salt. Actually more of a scoopHow else do you suggest we compare like with unlike?

[SMorgan]

Ok, do the maths - whats the ..........................


............ might work with 18-20 teams, but they've got 18-20 catchment areas 3 times as large on average as our own. It ridiculous to use those as targets, and a telling comparison that the other professional game on this island (rugby) supports 4 franchise funded teams and one of those a development team with half the funding.

No harm to you Gavin, but what a waste of time that post was.

Why exactly did you give Galway the full county yet Drogheda were given the population of the town. Why not Louth and throw in Meath as well. I'am sure in P1's wee world of make believe all Lilywhites will be queing up to go to Drogheda. Is there some reason why the folks in Athenry will be rushing to Terryland in great numbers. Also what about Northern Ireland and the Armage/Lurgan/Craigavon conabation.

I can't understand why Northern Ireland are not kicking up to a greater extent. It appears the the Board of Glentoran have got all stary eyed at the nice packaging of this nonsense amd appear not to give a damn about the well being of other clubs in the six counties. Altough I do note the informed comments of the Glens fans on this board in relation to the matter.

You can analyse that proposal to death, but at the end of the day, you're left with a 10-club league with no PnR for 3 years. That is laughable and should cause everybody to question if the people coming forward with the proposal know what they're talking about.

I would appeal to the FAI and the IFA to kill this P1 proposal and reiterate that it won't happen as they want it.

[GavinZac]

No harm to you Gavin, but what a waste of time that post was.

Why exactly did you give Galway the full county yet Drogheda were given the population of the town. Why not Louth and throw in Meath as well. I'am sure in P1's wee world of make believe all Lilywhites will be queing up to go to Drogheda. Is there some reason why the folks in Athenry will be rushing to Terryland in great numbers.I was being very generous - I state this, right there in black and white - but I'm not using these figures as support for how great our own attendances, but rather as a comparison to England to show just how badly off we are just for a start in terms of supporting 12 or 16 clubs. For football to succeed on this island it needs to be professional. The suggestion that we could somehow support 16 or 20 fully professional teams is ludicrous, the figures just don't add up. Even 12 would be extremely unlikely in the short term. In the short term only 10 teams would be anywhere near sustainable, and even then its a gamble. The rewards for winning this gamble - attracting the proper support of potential football supporters in this country - are huge. I want it to happen. No, I'm not particularly pleased about no promotion/relegation, or about several other aspects of the proposals. However, something needs to be done in this country and I don't see anyone else queuing up with ideas other than sitting it out and seeing how it goes.


Also what about Northern Ireland and the Armage/Lurgan/Craigavon conabation.Its for the ELoI Premier Division :confused:

[dublinred]

I think for an AIL to work you need to get as many areas as possible involved this tactic works wonders for the GAA , the AIPL has 4 clubs from the pale, 2 from Belfast, Cork, Limerick, Galway and Derry , there is a big bit of the country i-e the middle which has no clubs. Again to be successful you need to control the media the GAA are very good at this note the negative publicity about Eircom on RTE yesterday and not a mention of the young fella who got racist abuse down in Carlow.

[dcfcsteve]

hose countries have populations which can support that amount of teams... .

Really....? :confused:

2007 ESTIMATED POPULATIONS

Croatia - 4.49m
Scotland - 5.12m
Denmark - 5.4m
Ireland - 5.8m (island)

[GavinZac]

I think for an AIL to work you need to get as many areas as possible involved this tactic works wonders for the GAA
Only 1 county board in the GAA isn't hemorrhaging money and that's Cork, the only county strongly successful in both codes. Even in Cork, the clubs in the city are falling massively behind the county clubs because of competition with soccer and the sedentary lifestyle of today's kids. The GAA are making a profit via sponsorship and days out in Croke Park, with 3 or 4 counties filling the place 3 or 4 times a year. They also have the slight advantage of not having to pay players, letting the government do it instead, and having no international competition for fans or players.

[Buller]

Really....? :confused:

2007 ESTIMATED POPULATIONS

Croatia - 4.49m
Scotland - 5.12m
Denmark - 5.4m
Ireland - 5.8m (island)

Yeah....
England has a population 50m, Germany 80m, Spain 45m, Italy 60m.

The countries you have listed there all have 12 team leagues, akin to their populations... not 20.
Read my response again. (I think you misread it...)

[jinxy lilywhite]

I think this discussion has swayed somewhat to a population contest.
In an other aspest I don't believe that P1 would be ready in time to lauch this AIPL in August 09. The FAI and especially the IFA will not stand for this plan in it's current format(the figures included in the proposal are ludicrous and I think the expenses they believe they will incur are vastly under estimated) and more importantly they would have the backing of UEFA who probably will have the final say on this matter.
If P1 has got something out of this is that the whole football community on the island is talking about this and this is quite a divisive issue whilst still in the public domain.
Speaking as somebody who supports a team on the outside of the cosy cartel of the 12 teams selected, I would never support a team in the AIL or subscribe, go to a game unless Dundalk where in it. It could well be the sentiment of other supporters whose teams are outside but I can only speak for me.
I think one thing has to be found out by the FAI and the IFA are what contingency plans for P1 and what will happen if this whole thing goes pear shaped in the first couple of years?

[GavinZac]

I think this discussion has swayed somewhat to a population contest.All in response to the laughable suggestion that because England, Germany and Italy have larger-than-normal premier divisions, so should we.

[backstothewall]

Teams in a large population centre (like Galway or Limerick) might have current problems, but at least they have the potential to one day pull in a crowd over 10,000. But given the populations of towns like Sligo, Dundalk, and especially Ballybofey, we can be sure that such a crowd will NEVER show up there. Whilst it might seem unfair to teams achieving fine results on the field to cherry pick sides, it is a financial reality that if this country is to have a league that isn't to continue to fester, and is to have some degree of success in Europe, that cherry picking must happen. The alternative is to carry on as we are, watch more sides go to the wall and stand by as apartments and a TESCO are built on top of their grounds, before realising what has to happen and getting a worse deal in 10 years.

It has to make sense to look at successful formats in other European nations of similar populations.

Serbia - 7,780,000 - 12 teams x 3 meetings per season
Bulgaria - 7,621,337 - 16 teams x 2 meetings per season
Switzerland - 7,301,994 - 10 teams
Ireland - 5,962,000 - ????????
Slovakia - 5,422,366 - 12 teams x 3 meetings per season
Denmark - 5,368,854 - 12 teams x 3 meetings per season
Finland - 5,302,545 - 14 teams x 2 meetings per season
Georgia - 4,960,951 - 12 teams
Norway - 4,743,193 - 14 teams x 2 meetings per season
Croatia - 4,490,751 - 12 teams x 3 meetings per season

LOI has a lower co-efficient than all these league, bar Georgia, which is dominated by one team, and I would suspect Dinamo Tiblisi (who have won 13of the 19 championships played since independence) would expect to progress against any LOI side. As putting all Ireland's eggs in a single Dublin side basket isn't practical, I would conclude the only way to improve the standard is a proposal at least similar to the P1 proposal.

The Georgian league also used to have 16 teams, but reduced this to 14. Croatia also experimented with 16 teams in the 90's, but reverted to 12 after a single season. Slovakia meanwhile used to have 10, but recently expanded this to 12.

To me this suggests 10 is too few, and leads to boredom from playing the same other nine side’s week after week. 16 however leads to boredom from playing poor quality sides every other week, and slices the cake to many ways in a country of our size.

This leaves a number between 12-14. Given our situation of having a concentration of teams around Dublin, the most comparable model to my eyes in the list above is Norway, which has 6 teams in or around Oslo. The Norwegian league has also recently achieved the kind of improvement we seek for Ireland. Perhaps one day we can see a Linfield or Cork City playing in the group stages of the Champions League as Rosenberg have done.

Following the Norwegian model would also have the benefits of making a straight forward home and away season possible, without confusing potential new customers to Irish football with games played on neutral venues as part or the league, or splitting the league into championship and relegation groups.

I would include the 10 teams suggested by P1 (Derry City, Cork City, Bohemians, Drogheda Utd, Limerick 37, Glentoran, Linfield, Galway Utd, St Patrick's Athletic and Shamrock Rovers). I would also include...

- Longford Town, as the 10 leave the midlands completely without representation
- Portadown, as there is a high population in the Portadown-Lurgan area with a strong football tradition
- Belfast/Donegal Celtic if there is any truth in the story about a new stadium in west Belfast backed by Peter Curiston
- the winners of a play-off competition open to all Irish League and LOI teams not already chosen.

I believe such a league would give football a real bounce when it started, and could hold interest in the longer term. I would play it from March - August so as not to compete directly with the EPL Premier League, and to give Ireland’s sides the advantage of being at their sharpest at the early stages of the European competitions.

[Rovers Maniac]

Teams in a large population centre (like Galway or Limerick) might have current problems, but at least they have the potential to one day pull in a crowd over 10,000. But given the populations of towns like Sligo, Dundalk, and especially Ballybofey, we can be sure that such a crowd will NEVER show up there. Whilst it might seem unfair to teams achieving fine results on the field to cherry pick sides, it is a financial reality that if this country is to have a league that isn't to continue to fester, and is to have some degree of success in Europe, that cherry picking must happen. The alternative is to carry on as we are, watch more sides go to the wall and stand by as apartments and a TESCO are built on top of their grounds, before realising what has to happen and getting a worse deal in 10 years.

It has to make sense to look at successful formats in other European nations of similar populations.

Serbia - 7,780,000 - 12 teams x 3 meetings per season
Bulgaria - 7,621,337 - 16 teams x 2 meetings per season
Switzerland - 7,301,994 - 10 teams
Ireland - 5,962,000 - ????????
Slovakia - 5,422,366 - 12 teams x 3 meetings per season
Denmark - 5,368,854 - 12 teams x 3 meetings per season
Finland - 5,302,545 - 14 teams x 2 meetings per season
Georgia - 4,960,951 - 12 teams
Norway - 4,743,193 - 14 teams x 2 meetings per season
Croatia - 4,490,751 - 12 teams x 3 meetings per season

LOI has a lower co-efficient than all these league, bar Georgia, which is dominated by one team, and I would suspect Dinamo Tiblisi (who have won 13of the 19 championships played since independence) would expect to progress against any LOI side. As putting all Ireland's eggs in a single Dublin side basket isn't practical, I would conclude the only way to improve the standard is a proposal at least similar to the P1 proposal.

The Georgian league also used to have 16 teams, but reduced this to 14. Croatia also experimented with 16 teams in the 90's, but reverted to 12 after a single season. Slovakia meanwhile used to have 10, but recently expanded this to 12.

To me this suggests 10 is too few, and leads to boredom from playing the same other nine side’s week after week. 16 however leads to boredom from playing poor quality sides every other week, and slices the cake to many ways in a country of our size.

This leaves a number between 12-14. Given our situation of having a concentration of teams around Dublin, the most comparable model to my eyes in the list above is Norway, which has 6 teams in or around Oslo. The Norwegian league has also recently achieved the kind of improvement we seek for Ireland. Perhaps one day we can see a Linfield or Cork City playing in the group stages of the Champions League as Rosenberg have done.

Following the Norwegian model would also have the benefits of making a straight forward home and away season possible, without confusing potential new customers to Irish football with games played on neutral venues as part or the league, or splitting the league into championship and relegation groups.

I would include the 10 teams suggested by P1 (Derry City, Cork City, Bohemians, Drogheda Utd, Limerick 37, Glentoran, Linfield, Galway Utd, St Patrick's Athletic and Shamrock Rovers). I would also include...

- Longford Town, as the 10 leave the midlands completely without representation
- Portadown, as there is a high population in the Portadown-Lurgan area with a strong football tradition
- Belfast/Donegal Celtic if there is any truth in the story about a new stadium in west Belfast backed by Peter Curiston
- the winners of a play-off competition open to all Irish League and LOI teams not already chosen.

I believe such a league would give football a real bounce when it started, and could hold interest in the longer term. I would play it from March - August so as not to compete directly with the EPL Premier League, and to give Ireland’s sides the advantage of being at their sharpest at the early stages of the European competitions.

You would want to check your facts in regards to Sligo pulling 10,000 + this has been done in past on quite a few occasions in the past. Dundalk i would say the same but i am not sure. I have to laugh at guys on here who come on stating what the league needs to do without checking facts and in the process of displaying their ignorance want to shut down two of the best and longest establised provincial clubs on the Island (not to mention one that is full time professional and this would be one of main aims of the new league to have all clubs full time).
In the last year we have seen what a fiasco the FAI made promoting Galway ahead of Dundalk, a club which came up because it was seen as the way forward for all clubs but is now that is relying on it's directors just to see out the season before they go back semi professional next year.

[backstothewall]

You would want to check your facts in regards to Sligo pulling 10,000 + this has been done in past on quite a few occasions in the past. Dundalk i would say the same but i am not sure. I have to laugh at guys on here who come on stating what the league needs to do without checking facts and in the process of displaying their ignorance want to shut down two of the best and longest establised provincial clubs on the Island (not to mention one that is full time professional and this would be one of main aims of the new league to have all clubs full time).
In the last year we have seen what a fiasco the FAI made promoting Galway ahead of Dundalk, a club which came up because it was seen as the way forward for all clubs but is now that is relying on it's directors just to see out the season before they go back semi professional next year.

Really?? Hate to rain on your parade (I'm actually quite enjoying it), but the capacity of the showgrounds is 9000 according to worldstadiums.com. If you believe wikipedia it is only 5500.

Now... What was that you were saying about research??

btw, i never mentioned closing down any club. they will probably have to adjust their setup, but the number of clubs going to the wall already is evidence if any were needed that there are a lot of professional clubs in Ireland who simply can't afford it

[Rovers Maniac]

Really?? Hate to rain on your parade (I'm actually quite enjoying it), but the capacity of the showgrounds is 9000 according to worldstadiums.com. If you believe wikipedia it is only 5500.

Now... What was that you were saying about research??

btw, i never mentioned closing down any club. they will probably have to adjust their setup, but the number of clubs going to the wall already is evidence if any were needed that there are a lot of professional clubs in Ireland who simply can't afford it

God have you noticed anything missing from the ground in the least two years ? Like an end? You have come on here talking complete rubbish about something you think you have an idea about but clearly you have not got a clue. Over 13,000 (Offical figure i think was 13,082) for a cup semi final v Cobh in 1983 something similar v Shams in 1977 in the 90's there was just under 10,000 at a game v FC Brugge. There are 3 matches that spring to mind so what you have said as is complete rubbish that has not being researched just complete tosh your proposal would mean that the league would lose a professional to promote a club that have never being professional because of potential (Don't people like you ask why that club have never being professional in the past?).

[backstothewall]

I am ulikely to have missed anything missing from the ground as I have never been there. Have you noticed anything missing from Inver Park or Suffolk Road recently??

http://foot.ie/showthread.php?p=960054

According to this arcived thread the record is 9000 for a game against Shamrock Rovers in the 1976/77 season. I mean there are no shortage of people who claim a million people were on O'Connell St after Italia 90, or at Bobby Sands funeral, but there is always a large element of exaduration.

Have you got any source for these wonderful attendences you quote??

It really doesn't matter anyway, the average attendance at Sligo is under 1500. For all the abuse Galway United get they pull in more people every week, and a team from a provincial capital city of over 70,000 people clearly has a better chance of supporting a club than a small town of 20,000.

[Rovers Maniac]

I am ulikely to have missed anything missing from the ground as I have never been there. Have you noticed anything missing from Inver Park or Suffolk Road recently??

http://foot.ie/showthread.php?p=960054

According to this arcived thread the record is 9000 for a game against Shamrock Rovers in the 1976/77 season. I mean there are no shortage of people who claim a million people were on O'Connell St after Italia 90, or at Bobby Sands funeral, but there is always a large element of exaduration.

Have you got any source for these wonderful attendences you quote??

It really doesn't matter anyway, the average attendance at Sligo is under 1500. For all the abuse Galway United get they pull in more people every week, and a team from a provincial capital city of over 70,000 people clearly has a better chance of supporting a club than a small town of 20,000.

This is quite funny and amusing you are lifting information from random internet posters on here :D. You seem to have no idea about football i am sure you would have Kilkenny in there if they still had a team in the league, but only for their potential because of their population ignoring all other norms and values for the people of that area. Guys like you scare me to be honest.

[Rovers Maniac]

This is quite funny and amusing you are lifting information from random internet posters on here :D. You seem to have no idea about football i am sure you would have Kilkenny in there if they still had a team in the league, but only for their potential because of their population ignoring all other norms and values for the people of that area. Guys like you scare me to be honest.


Look at the post further down the page from the poster named Believer he gives a figure like mine. It shows the health and safety was never really a concern back then.