AIPL plans revealed

[blackholesun]

Like it or not franchise football is on its way. It could be argued it has already arrived via Fingal & Limerick. Cork City was essentially a franchise when it was created.

I believe the FAI has no interest in supporting 22 senior clubs but just needs a nice way (licencing) to bring this about. Less clubs means more money for each club. No use investing millions in facilities for clubs with crowds in the hundreds.

While I feel for some of the volunteers and fans helping out at some struggling first division clubs, some of these clubs should really consider packing it in at this stage and go back to the regional leagues. Maybe a bye into the first round of the FAI Cup for 5 years would soften the blow.

Will be interesting to see how this thing pans out, I am bit surprised that 7 clubs signed a letter to the minister at this early stage.

btw I think 10 team leagues stink, Id rather see a 16 team league whether its an AIL league or not.

bhs

[passerrby]

I believe the FAI has no interest in supporting 22 senior clubs but just needs a nice way (licencing) to bring this about. Less clubs means more money for each club. No use investing millions in facilities for clubs with crowds in the hundreds.
sad but true, also i assume cork bohs,derry, drogs, and pats signed the letter but who else believes they are super potential

[cheech]

You do an awful lot of supposing where it's not really justified. Which issues are only "supposed" issues as opposed to fundamental ones? (And I agree with you on the ridiculous over-exaggeration of the security issue, so you can ignore that one). You were also happy to suppose that the Limerick fans would suddenly do a U-turn when they'd previously said that their inclusion would be ridiculous. You're happy to suppse that the FAI have a "finger in the ear attitude" towards clubs' financial problems - I'd argue that the FAI's sensible 65% wage cap approach has instead caught these financial issues before they got way out of hand, and so (a) that's far from a "finger in the ear" approach, and (b) it's as much as they can really do in an issue that ultimately they don't have much control over. Maybe you should look to arguing actual issues rather than "supposing" them to exist or not.

There's a number of problems with the proposals. The first is that they bear Jim Roddy's trademark of a superb goal with absolutely no correlation between the changes proposed and how we're going to reach the goals. Again, stuff like "Irish football has no future" are bandied about without any sort of back up. Of course Irish football has a future. But if that future involves average gates of 1500 and part-time teams because Johnny Bar Stool doesn't care about the league, then we have to accept that straight off and work within those constraints. That's more of a future than magic 150% crowd increases.

Secondly, did Linfield not state about a month ago that they weren't interested in this for the foreseeable future? No-one cares about anyone other than Linfield and Glens from the North (with due respect to the other clubs), and if Linfield are out, I'd imagine Glens are out (won't risk losing their bumper three-times-a-year crowds to have 100 Cork fans instead), which sinks the project immediately.

Thirdly, the new IL Premier League was initially supposed to have no relegation for a period, but that was changed after, as I understood it, pressure from UEFA (and correct me if I'm wrong here). Yet Platinum One have decided they can overcome the exact same issue somehow?

What the Platinum One proposals are basically promising isn't a million miles off where Genesis said we'd be about now. Not much has changed with the new league, increased TV coverage, CPOs, etc, and not much will change if Linfield and Glentoran are brought into this mix, lured by pie-in-the-sky revenue figures. Anyone who believes this is the only way to a fully professional league doesn't have a clue about Irish football.

Fantastic post mate.

For anyone that is lauding the new league in this thread, reference some of the points above first.

[Bald Student]

But if that future involves average gates of 1500 and part-time teams because Johnny Bar Stool doesn't care about the league, then we have to accept that straight off and work within those constraints. That's more of a future than magic 150% crowd increases.

I interpreted this statement as meaning professional football in untenable.

Am I mistaken?:confused:I'm sure we'll all agree that Pineapple can speak for himself but I think he's saying that any plan to introduce a fully professional league has to start by looking at where the league is now and then setting out a set of realistic steps that can take us to where we want to go.

If you look at this snippet from the proposals:

We have said that we expect gate receipts to increase by 150% in the first year of the AIPL. Take the earlier example (4.2.3) of the club that earned €272,000 in gross gate receipts from its home league fixtures in 2007. Were it to continue in the current dispensation and manage a highly unlikely 50% increase in that figure it would realise gross receipts of €408,000. However, we are projecting growth of 150% to gross receipts of €680,000 in year one of the AIPL. Net of the fees payable to its league that clubs income would stand at €612,000 still far ahead of what it could ever hope to realise from a season in the Eircom League. The AIPL represents a much stronger proposition than the status quo which will continue to under deliver.it reads like a bad FF election manifesto, full of promises which cannot possibly be met. It simply states that this group has predicted an increase of 150% where as others have only predicted 50%. Therefore this group will bring about an increase of 150% and the club with an annual gate of 270,000 can happily hand over 100,000 of it at the start of the season on the presumption that the increasing gates will make it worthwhile.

It's another example of the 'spend money now in the hope of money later' plan that has worked against a lot of clubs in the past.

[OneRedArmy]

I'm sure we'll all agree that Pineapple can speak for himself but I think he's saying that any plan to introduce a fully professional league has to start by looking at where the league is now and then setting out a set of realistic steps that can take us to where we want to go.You mentioned FF bull**** at the end of your post, refer to the highlighted section.

What on earth does that mean? Its very easy to hurl from the ditch.

[Bald Student]

You mentioned FF bull**** at the end of your post, refer to the highlighted section.

What on earth does that mean? Its very easy to hurl from the ditch.
What I meant when I said 'steps that can take us to where we want to go' I meant a plan to introduce a fully professional league, which I mentioned earlier in the same sentence. I thought that was reasonably clear but sorry if it wasn't.

[Macy]

I've said this before and been shouted down, but if you want lessons in how to revive a league that was percevied as a joke league populated by plumbers, postmen, has beens & never will be's then look at the Australian league.
It's too early to tell with the A league. If after 10 or 12 years they're still getting crowds higher than the clubs with history, maybe it will be worth thinking about, even with the obvious advantage they had of the Aussie's tradition of going to watch live sport that we don't have.

Remember when the NASL used to get massive crowds? In the mid to late 90's the Manchester Areana was packed for Ice Hockey and Basketball, getting over 17,000 a game. There was talk about them taking over from football. Now they're both playing in venue's with a capacity of under a 1000, under different names as the franchises effectively went bust.

[dublinred]

The only reason there is money men behind pats, Drogs and Cork is the lure of franchise football, sure, there are alot of problems with this proposal but the basics are along the lines of whats needed if professional football on this island is to survive.
Franchise sounds like a dirty word to supporters but its what business men want to hear. Any AIL needs investors and this is the way to get them.


Is it true that the operators of the current football franchise in Cork are going to pull out if the AIPL doesn't go ahead , who would cover the wages if this happened?

[endabob1]

It's too early to tell with the A league. If after 10 or 12 years they're still getting crowds higher than the clubs with history, maybe it will be worth thinking about, even with the obvious advantage they had of the Aussie's tradition of going to watch live sport that we don't have.

Remember when the NASL used to get massive crowds? In the mid to late 90's the Manchester Areana was packed for Ice Hockey and Basketball, getting over 17,000 a game. There was talk about them taking over from football. Now they're both playing in venue's with a capacity of under a 1000, under different names as the franchises effectively went bust.


That's a fair point but in its first 3 years attendances have gone From 10,955 to 12,927 to 14,610. The last grand final of the old NSL attracted 9,000

I disagree that we don't have a tradition of going to live sport, the GAA manages to get people to it's games, Munster & Leinster Rugby have proved that if the product is right and properly marketed people will come.
Populationwise there is always going to be issues, 5m is not a lot of people to support 4 professional sports (the GAA is professional in all but name), crowds of 5,000-10,000 are acheivable for clubs with big catchement areas like Cork & the Dublin clubs, Sligo has a population of under 20,000 how realistic is it to expect 25% of that population to turn up at the showgrounds on a Friday night?

[Fivesilver]

Is it true that the operators of the current football franchise in Cork are going to pull out if the AIPL doesn't go ahead

Is it true that Fintan Drury is also going to hold his breath and stamp his feet until he's allowed have his league? And that several of the "elite" clubs have vowed that if it doesn't go ahead they'll never speak to us ever ever ever again?

[dublinred]

Is it true that Fintan Drury is also going to hold his breath and stamp his feet until he's allowed have his league? And that several of the "elite" clubs have vowed that if it doesn't go ahead they'll never speak to us ever ever ever again?

We might get a phone call or a late invite to the top table , a few clubs above us in the league are operating off the shels model.

[Mr A]

Is it true that Fintan Drury is also going to hold his breath and stamp his feet until he's allowed have his league? And that several of the "elite" clubs have vowed that if it doesn't go ahead they'll never speak to us ever ever ever again?

Yes, and he's going to stamp his foot 150% harder than anyone has ever done before through the magical power of marketing.

[GavinZac]

Can we just get a consensus of "Waaaaaaaaaaa" from the fans of teams not involved and then get back to having fans of those teams involved discussing the merits?

[gustavo]

Can we just get a consensus of "Waaaaaaaaaaa" from the fans of teams not involved and then get back to having fans of those teams involved discussing the merits?
Fair enough




I think it's a stupid idea



I'd love an AIL but this seems stoopid



This Glens fan, who is not opposed in principle to an AIL, wants nothing to do with it


I'm very in favour of an AIL but not this proposal.

[OneRedArmy]

Its the people who say that they are dead against Drury's proposals, but conceptually in favour of an AIL, yet can't seem to put their finger on what shape it would need to take for them to support it, that I can't get my head around.

When word of Drury's and Jim Roddy's putative plan surfaced ages ago people got outraged and said they couldn't support something that didn't have any promotion and relegation or wouldn't be supported by both national jurisdictions. The plans attempt to address both these issues and now the very same people have moved onto a new list of issues to be outraged about.

[Macy]

When word of Drury's and Jim Roddy's putative plan surfaced ages ago people got outraged and said they couldn't support something that didn't have any promotion and relegation or wouldn't be supported by both national jurisdictions. The plans attempt to address both these issues and now the very same people have moved onto a new list of issues to be outraged about.
Apart from not having promotion and relegation for several years, basing the teams on aspects other than footballing merit, including a caveat about promotion even after they do allow promotion?

[GavinZac]

Fair enough

Thats more like it - their opinions matter. As long as their concerns are addressed, OneRedArmy, we move closer to a viable professional league on this island. Not sure if you guys are familiar with the concept of "user feedback" in product development but the way to perfect a 'product' is by finding out whats wrong with it, via the people who will be using it. Far better to find a fault at the beginning than half way through the first quarter.


Apart from not having promotion and relegation for several years, basing the teams on aspects other than footballing merit, including a caveat about promotion even after they do allow promotion?
There are already caveats - premier licenses and such.

[dublinred]

Its the people who say that they are dead against Drury's proposals, but conceptually in favour of an AIL, yet can't seem to put their finger on what shape it would need to take for them to support it, that I can't get my head around.

When word of Drury's and Jim Roddy's putative plan surfaced ages ago people got outraged and said they couldn't support something that didn't have any promotion and relegation or wouldn't be supported by both national jurisdictions. The plans attempt to address both these issues and now the very same people have moved onto a new list of issues to be outraged about.

I would have issues about the selection basis, the 10 team concept , lack of promotion/relegation for the first few seasons, 100k upfront , 10% of gate receipts, ridulous attandance increase estimates , if these were addressed I would be happier about the prospoal, the only i like about the proposal at the moment is the return to winter football.

[Mr_Parker]

I would have issues about the selection basis, the 10 team concept , lack of promotion/relegation for the first few seasons, 100k upfront , 10% of gate receipts, ridulous attandance increase estimates , if these were addressed I would be happier about the prospoal, the only i like about the proposal at the moment is the return to winter football.

It would also be good if they would back up some of their ridiculous claims like "80% of clubs are technically insolvent." The document does its best to paint a black picture of the Irish League in order to make them look like the Knight on the white horse.

I have asked before, but why are P1 involved in all this? Is it their love of the game? :rolleyes:

[jinxy lilywhite]

I like the concept and the idea of the ail but this plan stinks. P1 have no interest in the state of irish football and what are they going to do that everybody else has failed. I don't think professional football on the island is the way forward yet but clubs should concentrate on youth development and invest in infrastructure instead of blowing their gate receipts on players wages.
I thinks clubs should concentrate more on self sustainability because at the moment it seems that one or two bad gates will really f*ck teams up.

[SMorgan]

Can we just get a consensus of "Waaaaaaaaaaa" from the fans of teams not involved and then get back to having fans of those teams involved discussing the merits?

Listen this proposal is laughable and doesn't merit serious discussion. These people have achieved agreement on both sides of the border. The football associations have told them to get lost. Could it be any clearer!!

[OneRedArmy]

Listen this proposal is laughable and doesn't merit serious discussion. These people have achieved agreement on both sides of the border. The football associations have told them to get lost. Could it be any clearer!!Why is it still going a year after being first announced?

Why have the major clubs signed up?

Why is someone with a track record like Drury involved?

Why have the national footballing bodies moved their position from a flat no to not ruling it out to investigating the concept of an AIL?

[Rovers Maniac]

Why is it still going a year after being first announced? Money

Why have the major clubs signed up? greed

Why is someone with a track record like Drury involved? Money, greed and Power

Why have the national footballing bodies moved their position from a flat no to not ruling it out to investigating the concept of an AIL? Where has the IFA said this please, source please !

Also Linfield are still not on side for an all Ireland league.

[Mr A]

Why is it still going a year after being first announced?

Why have the major clubs signed up?

Why is someone with a track record like Drury involved?

Why have the national footballing bodies moved their position from a flat no to not ruling it out to investigating the concept of an AIL?

1. + 2. Because the top clubs are as a rule overspending massively and are looking for a silver bullet solution to their unsustainable wagebills. Blaming the 65% rule or the FAI is really just an excuse.

3. Dunno much about his track record- what has he done?

4. They don't want to see a breakaway I guess, but they don't seem anywhere close to endorsing it.

[pineapple stu]

I interpreted this statement as meaning professional football in untenable.

Am I mistaken?:confused:
Mea culpa; I mis-read your post as saying that football in Ireland was untenable, which opinion has been bandied about carelessly on this forum before.

However, although professional football here is obviously untenable for the moment, Bald Student's post -


I'm sure we'll all agree that Pineapple can speak for himself but I think he's saying that any plan to introduce a fully professional league has to start by looking at where the league is now and then setting out a set of realistic steps that can take us to where we want to go.

...sums up my view on things as well. There's certainly nothing in the proposals which give the merest hint that they're realistic, or that they will do what 40 live games a season, summer soccer, European progress, MNS, CPOs, eL Weakly, professional football (such as we have) and relatively big named players have failed to do.

And for those who are using the A League in Australia as an example of what could happen, I'd like to counter with the New Zealand Football Championships, a new franchise league set up in 2004/05 in a country roughly Ireland's size where football isn't the number one sport. The league still hasn't taken off (the grand final last year got 3,800) and the game is roughly where it was beforehand.

[Rovers Maniac]

I get the feeling that Derry fans are expecting to see Drury on the new series of Dragon's Den probably looking to get James Caan out with some help from John Hume :D

The Dragons will also be asked to play a 5 a-side friendly later in the year in the city.

[Mr A]

Fintan Drury details from the Indo:

Age: 46
Job: Football agent. Chairman of Paddy Power Bookmakers. Chairman of Platinum One and director of Anglo Irish bank.


Career: A former RTE journalist who switched sides and moved into the PR game. Drury sold his PR company to concentrate on sports management. The expanding business's clients range from Manchester United's Liam Miller to rugby international Gordon D'Arcy. He is also chairman of Paddy Power Bookmakers and a non-executive director of Anglo Irish Bank.

Full details here: http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/fintan-drury-the-cv-463060.html

[Rovers Maniac]

Fintan Drury details from the Indo:

Age: 46
Job: Football agent. Chairman of Paddy Power Bookmakers. Chairman of Platinum One and director of Anglo Irish bank.


Full details here: http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/fintan-drury-the-cv-463060.html

Anglo Irish bank :D

Hobbies: Spending time with his family, playing golf and tennis and supporting Manchester City.

[endabob1]

And for those who are using the A League in Australia as an example of what could happen, I'd like to counter with the New Zealand Football Championships, a new franchise league set up in 2004/05 in a country roughly Ireland's size where football isn't the number one sport. The league still hasn't taken off (the grand final last year got 3,800) and the game is roughly where it was beforehand.


Rather than using the A league as a strict template I think there are a lot of lessons to learn from it, very similar set of circumstances with regard to league perception, genereal interest in the game and rival sports.
The New Zealand leauge is not one that I know a whole lot about but I do know the first ALeague franchise over there flopped big time, the replacement in Wellington is faring a whole lot better with average crowds in 5 figures.
I would think that the (relative) success of one club in a bigger league would have a detrimental effect on the domestic league. It supports the reasons why there was (quite rightly) such strong opposition to the various ideas of Dublin based teams for the EPL & SPL over the years.

[Macy]

Why is it still going a year after being first announced?
Because the people who stand to make most out of it want to make their bucks? Another couple of clubs in trouble due to overspending makes it a prime time to come in as the white knights....

[GavinZac]

Because the people who stand to make most out of it want to make their bucks? Another couple of clubs in trouble due to overspending makes it a prime time to come in as the white knights....

You mean sligo? and waterford? and harps? i don't think they're involved.

[Mr A]

You mean sligo? and waterford? and harps? i don't think they're involved.

And Galway? Limerick may be ok but would be looking at increasing their turnover by a factor of 5 or 6 to compete in this.

[Macy]

You mean sligo? and waterford? and harps? i don't think they're involved.
Or Galway. A PR man would know the time to do a relaunch of a scheme that makes outlandish claims of how much money is going to be made is when clubs are in the news for financial difficulties.

[Mr A]

Not sure Glentoran are in great shape either, and that's before you even go into whether what most of the top EL clubs are doing is in any way sustainable.

[GavinZac]

Or Galway. A PR man would know the time to do a relaunch of a scheme that makes outlandish claims of how much money is going to be made is when clubs are in the news for financial difficulties.

of course. strike while the iron is hot, as you will. Expect some more details on their plans for European places when the last club is out of UEFA competition.

[micls]

Its the people who say that they are dead against Drury's proposals, but conceptually in favour of an AIL, yet can't seem to put their finger on what shape it would need to take for them to support it, that I can't get my head around.

Who said they dont know what form it would take to support it?

There are a few things I disagree with with the current proposals(leaving out that I think their targets are a bit high)

1) Clubs should be there on footballing merit. If its going to be 10 clubs, then have the top 2/3 from the IL and the top 7/8 from the EL.
If they said they had invited, Linfield, Glentoran,Cliftonville, Derry,Bohs, Pats, Cork City, Drogs, Sligo, then you wouldnt have half the disagreement.

2) Winter football- No thanks

3) P& R- not a fan of no promotion/relegation.

4) Starting next August- very skeptical.

Those would be my main issues, also there needs to be more solid info about how clubs are going to increase attendances by 150%, what marketing will be used etc etc.

[Mr_Parker]

Why is it still going a year after being first announced?

Why have the major clubs signed up?

Why is someone with a track record like Drury involved?

Why have the national footballing bodies moved their position from a flat no to not ruling it out to investigating the concept of an AIL?

1. Is it now not a already year late?

2. Have they? You mean they have expressed an interest in being kept informed of developments?

3. Money?

4. I can't remember the IFA stating the flat "no" since it was first muted? Indeed I would be surprised if it has even appeared on the IFA's agenda.

[passerrby]

gavin answer me please if the IFA has said no and delaney will not even meet with platium one how is this ever going to happen ...geniune question

[GavinZac]

gavin answer me please if the IFA has said no and delaney will not even meet with platium one how is this ever going to happen ...geniune question

how did the Eircom League happen?

[passerrby]

how did the Eircom League happen?

i assume it was like minded people agreeing the best way forward for the league. dont think thats the case this time to much opposition from to many quarters

[EalingGreen]

One assertion which struck me as curious is the following:

"Discussions will continue with the Referees in order to create a panel of full time referees as soon as is practicably possible"

How much will this cost?

I assume the average referee is currently in his 30's-40's. Most will have a reasonable job, with many having a wife and family. Therefore, to induce them to make a career switch for no more than a few years, with possible difficulty in resuming that career when the refereeing ends, will mean they will demand a reasonable salary (up to €40k p.a.?), with the security of a reasonably long contract, since they will likely have to retire from the game before they're 50.

And with 12 teams/6 matches per weekend, the Panel will need as many as 10 f-t Refs. There will also be ancilliary costs of Referees Training, plus Linsesmen and Assessors. Add to this the cost of administration and employing people generally (tax, Nat. Insurance, benefits, Pension etc). Oh, and they will each require a Company Car, plus petrol allowance, since we can't have them queuing up at the Bus Stop outside the ground after a game, where any fan who was less than happy with their performance might spot them!

Therefore, I can't see this particular idea giving much change out of €500,000 per annum.

Where is that going to come from? Unless, of course, those clever chaps at Platinum haven't thought to cost it. Or they have, but are just making impressive-sounding promises in order to show people how "professional" they are, which they can later go back on? :rolleyes:

[jebus]

Good God I actually just read the proposal from front to back,it's like it was written by a 16 year old, obsessive Football Manager fan who thinks he knows whats best for the game judging by his trophy haul during his ten year tenure as Man Utd manager :eek:

Seriously there is little indication to where their facts come from, they contradict themselves in some places (we want nothing to do with the two leagues below the AIPL, we will give payments to relegated clubs to the two leagues), there is no concrete plans as to how they will better the league in terms of marketability, they insult the IFA and the FAI at every corner (presumably they hoped we would all run at both headquarters with pitchforks raised after reading their mission statement), and they give no indication as to how they will persuade Uefa to bypass the fact that a ten team Irish league doesn't deserve 2 European Cup places, and won't be answerably to Uefa's Golden Rule of being run by the Assosications of our countries.

One of the more idiotic proposals I've read regarding this league, and well, I've read an awful lot of rubbish regarding this league on this website. On a last point (I was going to take down things I wanted to bring up, but there was 2-3 items a page up to the point they started repeating themselves) does anyone else feel uncomfortable with Platinum One deciding whether a football team is suitable enough for promotion when they bring relegation/promotion into the equation? They say that they will have a playoff between the LoI and IL winners and decide if they meet the criteria for promotion. Now I have no issue with an AIPL following Uefa guidelines, but considering that they base this league on marketability I wonder if, say, Monaghan went on a Cobh 2007 style run, won the LoI, won the playoff and met the Uefa guidelines, would Platinum One turn them away for not being as marketable as, say, Limerick or Galway (if we finished bottom of the AIPL that season)?

[GavinZac]

does anyone else feel uncomfortable with Platinum One deciding whether a football team is suitable enough for promotion when they bring relegation/promotion into the equation?
What, you mean Platinum One will be issuing things like "premier licenses"? That'd never happen!

[passerrby]

I respect anybodys right to further improve the lot of the club/team in whatever way they see fit but they to must show the same to those of us who see this a detrimental to there clubs, I thinkwe are all in a leaking boat not a sinking but leaking boat and some are being asked to jump overboard so that others may stay afloat.
ironically those wishing to stay on board are the heaviest.

[jebus]

What, you mean Platinum One will be issuing things like "premier licenses"? That'd never happen!

Completely different thing from the FAI issuing licenses and Platinum One deciding who they like better between clubs, you know this though and are just being your usual disagreeable self, but sure what else is new

[GavinZac]

Completely different thing from the FAI issuing licenses and Platinum One deciding who they like better between clubs, you know this though and are just being your usual disagreeable self, but sure what else is new
I'm really not! Whats different between the criteria the FAI apply (applied) and those PO would?

[kingdomkerry]

Im all off it

[Saint_Charlie]

I'm really not! Whats different between the criteria the FAI apply (applied) and those PO would?

If the club's not marketable they can refuse them entry. Even the FAI aren't that bad.



Oh wait....

[jebus]

I'm really not! Whats different between the criteria the FAI apply (applied) and those PO would?

Platinum One will (rightly) look at this from a profit margin viewpoint if they take this on, hence clubs from towns (Monaghan, Cobh etc.) will never be as marketable as clubs like Limerick and Galway (barring some population boom), and so I can't foresee a time when Platinum One would ever allow a club like that to take the place of any of the proposed AIPL clubs.

The FAI wouldn't do that as they are required to look at this from a sporting viewpoint (albeit a money driven one), but Cobh being allowed into the Premier after a fantastic run like last year's simply wouldn't happen under Platinum One I feel

[SMorgan]

Why is it still going a year after being first announced?

Why have the major clubs signed up?

Why is someone with a track record like Drury involved?

Why have the national footballing bodies moved their position from a flat no to not ruling it out to investigating the concept of an AIL?

As pointed out Linfield have not signed up. But not only have they not signed up to it, they have expressed opposition to it. Also Galway asked not to be involved. Why have they.

Would you mind telling me what Fintan Drury's track record in relation to domestic soccer, because I'll be damned if I bloody know. I know Jim Roddy's - a couple of years ago he wanted a 10 team Premier league with no PnR for 3 years. Sound familiar!!

The current situation is that both association have distances its self from the proposal and there has been no softening of that position. Can you give me a single qoute from either assocication, but especially the IFA, to back-up your claim that they are lighting their approach to P1. The current situation is that both association want nothing to do with the P1 proposal.

I'll go back to a point I made previously, it difficult to understand why anybody is taking this proposal seriously. It really is pie in the sky stuff that makes its promoters look as if they are not living in the real world.

A 10-team league with no PnR for 3 years. We'll all be q-ing up for that TV coverage!!! not