AIPL plans revealed

[OneRedArmy]

Again, arguing on semantics, but I've no problem believing that year 1 attendences would increase 150%, as we have plenty of examples of bandwagon jumping at most clubs at some stage or other, its sustaining these crowds going forward that is the Holy Grail.

Edit: Jinxy beat me to the point!

[Schumi]

I expect they probably mean increase crowds to 150%.Nope. Read the top of page 51 where they're justifying charging €100k entry fee.

Would a bandwagon effect last a full season? Most promoted teams have a jump in crowds at the start of their premier season but drop back as they struggle. Would it be much different in an AIL seeing as only two teams would be new?

[GavinZac]

as for insults it was sarcasm sutle differenceSarcasm generally takes the form of a statement one makes in the hope that the contrast with the truth will be obvious. It can be a form of an insult or of humour. If "fintan drury and the blockheads" is sarcasm as you claim, then the 'statement' (albeit made with all the grammatical finesse of a 2 year shouting "want bockle!") if we can, er, transliterate, is "Fintan Drury and his group, Platinum One have blocks for heads", and we can assume you believe the opposite.

Personally I'd say you'd want to put down the ould shovel now.

Back on-topic, while obviously the challenge would be to maintain the higher crowds in the long run, at very least such big increases would make clubs more solvent and easier to lend to in confidence that they can't muck it up and make fools of themselves and their banks.

[dublinred]

Year 1 I wouldn't worry about crowds as it would have a novelty value and all but I'd worry for subsequent years when the novelty wears off and attendences drop as a result.
My biggest gripe with it is that 10 teams is too small. I think too many clubs are being left out of this. This should be done for the good of Irish Football not just for 10 Clubs, drury and roddy

The whole thing is silly , 10 teams, assuming Galway got relegated this year , at the end of next season they intend to discard 4 of the remaining ten teams(40%) to let in Galway, Limerick , Linfield and Glentoran and close the promotion/relagation door for a few seasons.

[Paraic]

I know it is unlikely that Linfield or Glentoran getting relegated, but it would be a stupid thing to see. AIL with all LOI clubs. Great stuff.

there's a link to the proposal document earlier in the thread and it suggests that there would have to be a mechanism in the promotion froim IL / el that would secure the ratio of teams from north and south. to steal a phrase from the recent lisbon debate, I suppose you could call it Qualified Majority Promotion. it's very vague though and probably relies on the premise that both the above won't get themselves in to that situation.

the document itself is worth reading and rather than getting bogged down in why it mightnt work, it's worth exploring why it might happen (as opposed to whether it may or may not work). a couple of things jumped out at me:

- Drury and co have stated up front that it cant happen without the cooperation of the IFA / FAI and UEFA. It's stating the obvious, but at least that is formally acknowledged
- the political system will probably have the greatest impact- Dermot Ahern is on record of being in favour of an AIL - because ultimately, if it's going to be a success, there is a requirement for significant capital investment a large proportion of which will come from government coffers. So if there is substantial political support on both sides, there's a far greater chance of success in getting it off the ground
- although platinum are trying to differentiate between their proposal and the roles of the associations as promoters of national team / developing the game, they are providing for an underage apprenticeship system which to me could conflict with the FAI's technical plan and their desire to create a 'pathway' to a professional career including the provision of regional centres of excellence. This has huge implications in terms of securing funding for developing facilities at a regional level by the clubs that are excluded form the AIL if the thrust of government funding is centred around stadium development for the AIL teams
- the 150% increase in gates is based on an example in the document and focusses on average attendances for a full EL season, versus average attendances against the EL clubs that would be part of the new league. In the first year, i don't think it's unrealistic at all, certainly for the dublin clubs

for me, the jury is out on this - there's too much detail to come out yet and the proposal is the first salvo in what will no doubt be a long series of negotiations behind the scenes, that will water down the proposal to some extent.

But i think, it can happen if there is serious political support/pressure put on the associations in a way that won't impact their international standing.

[pineapple stu]

Isn't that a supposition?:confused:

But getting back to your point, the wage cap should act as a preventative rather than a detective control over excessive spending, which means that it actually proves the wage cap ISN'T working.
Given clubs have mentioned the 65% wage cap as part of the reason they've been letting players go when they have, I don't think it's a supposition in the slightest.

Also, how can the wage cap act as a preventative control? What more do you think the FAI would have to do? They can't control what clubs do, they can't sign cheques for them or sign their contracts - they can only see what they've done and tell them to calm down. I've no problems with that.


I expect they probably mean increase crowds to 150%. Cork's average crowd has gone from 2000 to 3500 this season
Wrong. Per the attendances thread (which is using official Cork figures), your crowds have gone up from 2897 to 3454 this season, an increase of 19%. It's a decent increase, but it's way away from a 150% increase, which would see you up to 8635 in this hypothetical 2008/09 season.

[GavinZac]

I expect they probably mean increase crowds to 150%. Cork's average crowd has gone from 2000 to 3500 this season, not 150% increase or even 100% but certainly respectable - and that's based on radio, print and community marketing. Other facets or increased budget for the marketing should see higher growth. of course, it helps that the average man on the streets opinion on the quality of football on offer was probably boosted by the hype of O'Callaghan and Mooney.

My apologies, our attendances never averaged at 2000, i took Schumi's usually accurate figures but it seems ours were closer to 3000 than 2000 last season. Still - if the goal is 5000 then 3500 isn't a million miles off it, and as Paraic pointed out, the 150% is on average for the entire league, which would make it quite possible if 'sleeping giants' akin to Bohs and Pats attracted the sort of crowds they deserve; Cork's don't need to rise 150% to be respectable.

[EalingGreen]

Er, what? I don't reckon any borders were effected because of an all-ireland rugby league...
I fear you misunderstand. I wasn't concerned about NI (the country's) independence being threatened by this proposal. Rather it was the independence of the IFA and the NI international football team.
That is, if properly constituted, we could survive the existence of a 10 or 12 team AIL. But that's a hell of a sight different from doing away with the (rump) Irish League entirely and handing stewardship over the clubs from the IFA to Platinum.
Many of us in NI would see that as a first step on a slippery slope down which we simply will not go.

[spongebob]

They can shove it.

[Schumi]

My apologies, our attendances never averaged at 2000, i took Schumi's usually accurate figures but it seems ours were closer to 3000 than 2000 last season. Still - if the goal is 5000 then 3500 isn't a million miles off it, and as Paraic pointed out, the 150% is on average for the entire league, which would make it quite possible if 'sleeping giants' akin to Bohs and Pats attracted the sort of crowds they deserve; Cork's don't need to rise 150% to be respectable.Sorry, 2,000 was a complete guess off the top of my head, I didn't realise your crowds were that high. A 150% increase on your current 3,500 would breach your capacity so!

Change Cork to Pats or Bohs or whoever else then. Do you see an across the board 3,000 increase in average crowds from an AIL? I could see it at the start as a novelty but I can't see it being sustained. Hyping a product might work at the start but it'll mostly be the same players playing in the same stadia for the same teams that people don't go to see now.

[EalingGreen]

I'd imagine if a certain quota of Northern Ireland teams are needed in the league and they have reached that limit then the Republic team who wins the Republic league will be excluded from promotion that year and the winner of the NI league will go up automatically. No other way of going about it. Another reason why their proposal is faulty.

Not wishing to stir, but as the Document itself acknowledges, NI does at least have some powerful "brands" - marketing-speak for clubs which have a proud tradition and historic support etc, even if they are currently down on their uppers.
Which is only a reflection of the fact that historically (up until the Troubles?), the IL was stronger than the LOI. Indeed, there is an argument for saying Belfast is the traditional "football capital" of Ireland.
Therefore, if this new AIPL is as wonderful as they say, and beneficial all round, in time we could see P&R work in such a way as to see NI clubs greatly increase their share of the 10 (or 12).
Alternatively, you could see Dublin supply 4 or 5 clubs, with the rest of the Southern clubs all from the East Coast.
Neither prospect would please Platinum, or their sponsors/TV backers etc, who seem to demand the widest possible geographical spread, regardless of whether it reflects the true footballing strongholds on the island.

Yet another contradiction in this scheme, which the backers either don't understand or (more likely) prefer to deny.

[soccerc]

Oh man, I can't even work out who are the pots and who are the kettles on this page of the thread, it's like a cookware store in Pompeii.

We don't often agree but sitting here PMSL.

[EalingGreen]

I don't see a problem with having "Yo Yo" clubs,
There is a basic problem with any League which only has 10 clubs, playing a 36 game season i.e. fans will quickly get bored with playing the same nine teams four times a season (plus Cup games?).
But if there is regular and widespread P&R, this offers the opportunity to keep things fresh.
But if there is only one club coming up each season, derived from the same handful of clubs every time, and the promoted club is invariably doomed to go back down after a season or two, then it does nothing for the League, in terms of keeping fans interested.
Moreover, it does nothing for the yo yo clubs themselves, or their fans.

And remember, this whole league is to be financed basically by sponsors (plus mythical Government support). And for the sponsors to stump up the cash, they need to be getting their product advertised in front of large numbers of TV subscribers.
And if large numbers of barstoolers are going to subscribe, the TV company needs to be able to offer an exciting, competitive product, which effectively means one which attracts lots of punters through the turnstiles (to create a "buzz").
And punters aren't going to keep coming back to a League which eventually develops into the same old same old every season.
That is, a handful of clubs competing at the top, supplemented by a handful of "franchise" clubs only there for non-footballing reasons, with one or two from another handful of "yo yo" clubs, bringing up the rear.

[SalvadorSanchez]

AIL nice idea, but won't work....
bring a few more clubs into the Setanta cup and increase the prize money so that there are 12 or so clubs really benefiting from it financially, then we could see how that goes for 5-8 years.
If the SC had say, 24 teams divided into 6 groups of 4 with home and away ties and then 2 leg qtr final etc. we'd see what our chances were afterwards of rolling out an AIL, the suggested format screws over the NI teams and if they don't buy in then we go no where.
I'm not worried about the status of the Associations, after all if FIFA allow the UK 4 national teams then an AIL should threaten NI/ROI status at all....

[Student Mullet]

I think it's a good idea overall but the financial projections are completely off the wall.

[GavinZac]

There is a basic problem with any League which only has 10 clubs, playing a 36 game season i.e. fans will quickly get bored with playing the same nine teams four times a season (plus Cup games?).I don't agree with this. There hasn't been a huge churn in the teams which are in the LoI premier, and besides shel's demise (probably consistently replaced by drogs at least in the time since then) the teams at the top haven't changed all that much in the last decade; neither have the teams at the bottom. Cobh coming up this year and Dublin City coming up a few years back being the only examples of clubs which rose from murky depths rather than yo-yoing constantly. I don't think it makes a difference to most people which of the 'yoyos' they play.

[KevB76]

Well a Limerick team in the top division of Irish football which if a success could make Limerick very well supported.

Two maybe's though.

Correct, BUT, Limerick at the bottom of any league (which lets face it is where we would be) would not draw in the support.

[dcfcsteve]

All very well, but one of the attractions of the AIPL is that it will offer 2 x Champions League places to the top two clubs. What happens if both clubs come from ROI (or both from NI?).
Will UEFA be happy to grant the FAI (or IFA) two CL places?
Can't see it myself.

How would it be any different than if Cardiff City won the English Premeirship and entered the CL along with, say Llanelli ? Ignoring the fact England has 4 CL slots - that would see two from Wales (Cardiff are still affiliated to the Welsh FA).


Also, on a more parochial note, what is to be the status of Derry City in this new set-up. We are told they will play in the Irish Cup, rather than the FAI Cup. Also, the Apprentice Cup* for U-19 sides is to be organised around 4 regions, so their team will be playing mostly (exclusively?) against NI/IL teams to start with.
Does this mean DCFC will re-enter the IFA? I can see why they would not want to, but with the greatly improved security situation, their original justification for joining the FAI is now all but dissipated, whilst the proposed AIPL would give them the all-Ireland element which they require.

Firstly - DCFC have never actually left the IFA. We are still fully paid-up memebrs to this day (it may even be a UEFA stipulation that ou remain paid-up to your own jurisdiction, even if you play in another one). It was the Irish league we resigned from. We could arguably enter the Irish Cup next seaosn if we wanted to anyway.

Secondly, you know as much about thios scheme as everyone else. The plan appears to nbe that we would play in the Irish Cup, which no City fans are interested in TBH. regardless - I would be more worried about the technical outcome if we were to be relegated form the AIPL - would we then find ourselves pushed back into the Irish league ? :eek:


* - If Derry City were to win this competition, might they not rename it "The "Apprentice Boys Cup"? ;)

Even for you, that's week EG..... :o

[Rovers Maniac]

How would it be any different than if Cardiff City won the English Premeirship and entered the CL along with, say Llanelli ? Ignoring the fact England has 4 CL slots - that would see two from Wales (Cardiff are still affiliated to the Welsh FA).



Firstly - DCFC have never actually left the IFA. We are still fully paid-up memebrs to this day (it may even be a UEFA stipulation that ou remain paid-up to your own jurisdiction, even if you play in another one). It was the Irish league we resigned from. We could arguably enter the Irish Cup next seaosn if we wanted to anyway.

Secondly, you know as much about thios scheme as everyone else. The plan appears to nbe that we would play in the Irish Cup, which no City fans are interested in TBH. regardless - I would be more worried about the technical outcome if we were to be relegated form the AIPL - would we then find ourselves pushed back into the Irish league ? :eek:



Even for you, that's week EG..... :o

I have to laugh at how guys come on here thinking they know more than than DCFCSteve and even try to argue some points with him. Let me tell you guys who do this you should know your place ! :mad: and if you read his posts correctly you would not argue with him you simply ask him his opinion on such matters.

[dcfcsteve]

There's a number of problems with the proposals. The first is that they bear Jim Roddy's trademark of a superb goal with absolutely no correlation between the changes proposed and how we're going to reach the goals. Again, stuff like "Irish football has no future" are bandied about without any sort of back up. Of course Irish football has a future. But if that future involves average gates of 1500 and part-time teams because Johnny Bar Stool doesn't care about the league, then we have to accept that straight off and work within those constraints.

No we don't have to acept those 'constraints' - as if the appeal of football in Ireland is so severely limited. Why have we brought in CPO's etc etc if we think we are 'constrained to crowds of c. 1,500 ?


That's more of a future than magic 150% crowd increases.

The percentage figure may seem arbitary, but there is no reason to suppose an AIPL won't increase crowds substantially. For one simple reason. Football in Ireland - north and south - has never been properly packaged/marketed. Ever. Platinum One are a professional sports marketing company. If anyone can make an inherently decent sports product more appealing to the masses, then it's a professional and successful sports marketing company. It wouyld be absurd to just c0ck your nose and say 'sure look at them professional sporst marketing fools. we know better than them - they haven't a hope in hell of increasing gates dramatically'. I believe they do. Because they know what they're doing when it comes to marketing sport, and because no-one else on this island has ever done it before.


Secondly, did Linfield not state about a month ago that they weren't interested in this for the foreseeable future? No-one cares about anyone other than Linfield and Glens from the North (with due respect to the other clubs), and if Linfield are out, I'd imagine Glens are out (won't risk losing their bumper three-times-a-year crowds to have 100 Cork fans instead), which sinks the project immediately. .

Conversely - if Glens left the IL for the AIPL, Linfield would most likely follow shortly afterwards for exactly the same reasons you mention. Partiularlty if there was talk of Cliftonville or aother IL club taking the place currently left for them at the AIPL table. And the Glens have much more to benefit from being first to jump.


What the Platinum One proposals are basically promising isn't a million miles off where Genesis said we'd be about now. Not much has changed with the new league, increased TV coverage, CPOs, etc, and not much will change if Linfield and Glentoran are brought into this mix, lured by pie-in-the-sky revenue figures. Anyone who believes this is the only way to a fully professional league doesn't have a clue about Irish football.

Not much has changed since Genesis because Irish football - north and south - is run by people with no marketing knowledge or experience, let alone sports marketign experience. Our league has a serious image problem. Can someone please explain to me exactly how that can be changed without serious marketing to re-position it/effectively brainwash people. Did Skoda shake off their old sh!t image by just putting new wheels on and limiting engine size by 65% ? Did they hell - they pumped a tonne of money into telling the world they'd changed. And it worked. Without serious professional marketing we will always be seen as a dog's arse league. the FAI/IFA don't even see the need to do this - let alone have the ability to do it. That is the real constraint to the appeal of our league and the size of our crowds - not defeatist attitudes that assumes we're stuck with what we have now, because no-one knows how to make it any bigger.

[dcfcsteve]

I don't think so.
1) Would UEFA let one league have two representatives? or

Firstly - it would be one league, not one FA. It's FA's that nominate Euro teams. Anyway the English Premiership is one league that currently has 4 CL teams nominated form it. Where's the problem ?

Secondly - see my earlier example re Cardiff representing England and Llanelli representing Wales. Both are memebrs of the Welsh FA, yet both could be nominated for the Champions League by different associations.



2) Two National teams?

Why wouldn't they allow the 2 national teams stay on ? There'd still be two separate leagues, one for each.



3) Wouldn't this not mean an amalgamation of the IFA and the FAI?

As above - no. Why would it ? :confused:

[Rovers Maniac]

DCFCSteve you are destroying them with fact not fiction like they use.:)

[dcfcsteve]

The root cause of problems in the league is the perception held by the general public that the league is awful crap populated by builders and postmen and plasterers and generally not proper footballers or clubs. This has lead to a lack of support, which has lead to a lack of finances, which has lead to a lack of quality facilities and coaching.



Bingo.

This blindingly obvious point seems to have completely skipped-by the FAI/IFA - not to mention many posters on here.

And how do you tackle this core problem ? By marketing the hell out of the league to give it a new image.

Is the FAI capable of this ? Absolutely not. If they were they'd have done it already (or at leats shown some signs of recognition of the problem). They're a bunch of blazers with no understanding of, or experience in, marketing - hence why they think the way to save our league is to reduce the size of the premier division by two :o A footballing answer to a marketing/'branding' problem, when instead what we need is a marketing answer.

For so long as this absurdity remains the case, our league is destined to wallow in ongoing mediocrity...

[Dodge]

And where in the proposal does Drury give even the broadest of outlines of how he's going to market the league?

Or even give examples of the marketing the company has done in the area (they allude to some of it)

Like 95% of posts on here his proposals is a mixtures of wishes, ill informed half truths, lies, contradictory opinions, vague bull**** and tons and tons of ego. He'd have had the fulls et if he wrote a giant bug ****ing FACT!!! at the end of it.

I'll repeat, I'm all for a professional AIL, but this proposal is ridiculous.

[osarusan]

Bingo.

This blindingly obvious point seems to have completely skipped-by the FAI/IFA - not to mention many posters on here.

And how do you tackle this core problem ? By marketing the hell out of the league to give it a new image.

Is the FAI capable of this ? Absolutely not. If they were they'd have done it already (or at leats shown some signs of recognition of the problem). They're a bunch of blazers with no understanding of, or experience in, marketing - hence why they think the way to save our league is to reduce the size of the premier division by two :o A footballing answer to a marketing/'branding' problem, when instead what we need is a marketing answer.

Absolutely, a core problem is the marketing of the league, and the resultant image of the league.
But it must be admitted that the eL contributes to this problem by having teams that spend money they don't have to make it big, then come crashing down to earth. This is at least part of the reason the public have the perception they do of the league. eL teams have a history of focusing on the short-term, without taking the worst-case scenarion into account.

From what I've seen of these proposals, little will be done to stop this from happening. I'd say that greater prize money, combined with no relegarion for 2 years, will encourage even more teams to try and spend big to get the prize money.

[Student Mullet]

And where in the proposal does Drury give even the broadest of outlines of how he's going to market the league?

Or even give examples of the marketing the company has done in the area (they allude to some of it)

Like 95% of posts on here his proposals is a mixtures of wishes, ill informed half truths, lies, contradictory opinions, vague bull**** and tons and tons of ego. He'd have had the fulls et if he wrote a giant bug ****ing FACT!!! at the end of it.

I'll repeat, I'm all for a professional AIL, but this proposal is ridiculous.
But last season's ten year plan didn't work. We need a new ten year plan.

[EalingGreen]

How would it be any different than if Cardiff City won the English Premeirship and entered the CL along with, say Llanelli ? Ignoring the fact England has 4 CL slots - that would see two from Wales (Cardiff are still affiliated to the Welsh FA).

With Cardiff, you are talking about the FA voluntarily agreeing one of its UEFA Cup places may to go to a Welsh club in the once-in-140 years event that one may actually win the FA Cup.
That is somewhat different from a private company suddenly deciding that it is within their gift to allocate two Champions League places, whether the FAI and IFA have agreed, or not (and they haven't, btw). This is esp so when there is a decent chance that both CL places, formerly allocated one each to two separate countries, might now regularly both be "won" by teams from just one of those countries. Drury is signing cheques he can't honour, methinks.


Firstly - DCFC have never actually left the IFA. We are still fully paid-up memebrs to this day (it may even be a UEFA stipulation that ou remain paid-up to your own jurisdiction, even if you play in another one). It was the Irish league we resigned from. We could arguably enter the Irish Cup next seaosn if we wanted to anyway.

Secondly, you know as much about thios scheme as everyone else. The plan appears to nbe that we would play in the Irish Cup, which no City fans are interested in TBH. regardless - I would be more worried about the technical outcome if we were to be relegated form the AIPL - would we then find ourselves pushed back into the Irish league ? :eek:

If I were the cynical type, I might consider that the (mysterious) "balancing mechanism" whereby the AIPL doesn't become too top heavy in favour of the LOI (or even IL) might be Derry City's "Get out of jail free card". That is, if they somehow did finish bottom of the new League, they could argue that they are a "Northern" club, so as to keep the North-South composition of the League more in balance. Hence the offer to play in the Irish Cup (their FAI Cup place not being that big a sacrifice).
And if I were especially cynical, this "re-positioning" as an NI club might not be entirely unconnected with the need for (Stormont) Government grant-aid to redevelop the Brandywell?
After all, the new DCAL minister is a football fan and Derryman, to boot, but would appreciate some bargaining power with his party if he is going to persuade Robinson & Dodds to hand over a big wedge to a "Southern" team...
Might it be argued that they would now, indeed, be an NI club again, on the basis that they:
1. Are still IFA Members, as you point out;
2. Are no longer pointedly scorning the IL in favour of the LOI (the AIPL would supercede both, and if it's good enough for Linfield and the Glens...);
3. Are back in the Irish Cup.


Even for you, that's week EG..... :o
I was rather proud of it, actually. Oh well, at least I managed to spell it correctly...;)

[EalingGreen]

The percentage figure may seem arbitary, but there is no reason to suppose an AIPL won't increase crowds substantially. For one simple reason. Football in Ireland - north and south - has never been properly packaged/marketed. Ever. Platinum One are a professional sports marketing company. If anyone can make an inherently decent sports product more appealing to the masses, then it's a professional and successful sports marketing company. It wouyld be absurd to just c0ck your nose and say 'sure look at them professional sporst marketing fools. we know better than them - they haven't a hope in hell of increasing gates dramatically'. I believe they do. Because they know what they're doing when it comes to marketing sport, and because no-one else on this island has ever done it before.

A sustained crowd increase of, say, 25% would be "substantial", an increase of 150% would be a bloody miracle!
You have a touching faith in the power of Marketing (or "spin", as we more cynical types prefer to call it). Though I'll give you one thing, this platinum crowd are certainly very good at marketing themselves...
And have you ever wondered why no other Group has bothered investing their own money into marketing football in Ireland before now? Have they all been missing a trick?
And how much of their OWN money is platinum investing in this venture? Fair enough, they are investing their time and expertise, but from what I've seen, in the world of sports marketing, they're hardly a big player like Mark McCormick etc.
Might it be more a case of their being unable to break into the "First Division" of football markets (England, Spain, Italy, Germany etc) and so are having to scratch around in the 2nd Division (e.g. Scotland) or even 3rd Division (Ireland), to pick up business?


Conversely - if Glens left the IL for the AIPL, Linfield would most likely follow shortly afterwards for exactly the same reasons you mention. Partiularlty if there was talk of Cliftonville or aother IL club taking the place currently left for them at the AIPL table. And the Glens have much more to benefit from being first to jump.

Ah, the old "Divide and Rule" tactic. Linfield and the Glens will never think of that one, will they? After all, they're only IL dunderheads from Belfast, nowhere nearly so cute as those Big City LOI boys from Derry...;)
Get real. Everyone, including the two clubs themselves, knows that without both LFC and the Glens, this whole project will be deader than a very dead thing indeed. Do you honestly think anyone will be able to play e.g. Cliftonville off against either?


Not much has changed since Genesis because Irish football - north and south - is run by people with no marketing knowledge or experience, let alone sports marketign experience. Our league has a serious image problem. Can someone please explain to me exactly how that can be changed without serious marketing to re-position it/effectively brainwash people. Did Skoda shake off their old sh!t image by just putting new wheels on and limiting engine size by 65% ? Did they hell - they pumped a tonne of money into telling the world they'd changed. And it worked. Without serious professional marketing we will always be seen as a dog's arse league. the FAI/IFA don't even see the need to do this - let alone have the ability to do it. That is the real constraint to the appeal of our league and the size of our crowds - not defeatist attitudes that assumes we're stuck with what we have now, because no-one knows how to make it any bigger.
I have to say, I never had you down for a teary-eyed dreamer, Steve.
And your Skoda analogy is bunkum. Before WWII, Czechoslavkia had a very good reputation for engineering and manufacturing, with Skoda particularly noted for producing good cars.
This all went to Hell after the Communist takeover, which dragged Skoda down with it.
However, Skoda's recent revival had nothing to do with mere Marketing, rather it had all to do with the fall of the Berlin Wall allowing VW to come in in 1991 and invest millions in introducing the latest German car-making technology into Skoda's factories. Combined with the Czech engineering tradition at low wages, the real reason they are so successful is because the basic product is 1,000 x times better than the crap they previously turned out, at lower prices than their (Western) competitors.
The role of Marketing was merely one of pointing out the improvements and letting word of mouth from new purchasers to do the rest.
Now of course the marketing of the existing Irish football "product" could be much better, and if it were, would produce greater interest from punters, both turnstile and TV.
But if you seriously believe that Platinum can produce the sort of "Pie -in-the-Sky" figures such as 150% which they are promising, without a substantial improvement in the basic "product" to more nearly match that of competitors e.g. in England and Scotland, then you are deluding yourself.
The Texan phrase "All Hat and no Cattle" comes to mind. Then again, the Yanks always did know how to spot a Snake-Oil Salesman: sure didn't they invent "Marketing"? ;)

[EalingGreen]

Bingo.
when instead what we need is a marketing answer.


Great. That avoids the (inconvenient) need for difficult answers like better grounds, better players and better football. Better weather would be nice as well, so I trust the Marketing People will arrange for the seasons to be reversed, so that we get more sunshine in the Winter. Perhaps they're planning to line Fintan Drury up on the Equator and point his arse towards Ireland? That should do the trick.

This whole thing is becoming ever more like that priceless episode of the Simpsons, when the Monorail Company came to town...

[endabob1]

I've said this before and been shouted down, but if you want lessons in how to revive a league that was percevied as a joke league populated by plumbers, postmen, has beens & never will be's then look at the Australian league.
I was there before the A league was launched and South Melbourne (then Melbournes sole representative in the National League) were playing to crowds of a few (3-5) thousand in the old NSL, within 2 years Melbourne Victory played to 50,000 against Sydney at the Telstra Dome.
There has been some old teams which made the transition from the old NSL to the new A league and there have been some new franchises like Melbourne but it has taken soccer from a joke sport to getting crowds of 50k+ for big games and an average of 14,610 (Melbourne averaged 26,000 last season) 3 clubs had highest regular season attendances of over 30k.
There are similarities with the AFL/GAA competition but I think the things that the A League did which made it work were
- A complete rebranding, sexing up the league, a deal with Fox (Australia's sky) gave it more credence as a proper sport, previously it was on ABC which is the state/public broadcaster. The marketed it in the same manner as AFL/NRL/SUPER 14, basically stating that this was a product of similar standard.
- Australians aren't idiots and they watch a lot of European football, there are large Croat/Italian/Greek communitie as well as the UK & Irish ex-pats they know the difference between premier league/serie A and the A league BUT what the A league have done well is to bring back Australian players coming to the end of their careers in the Europe added to the one prestige signing allowed per club, it means there is some star power added to the production of young talent and you have a more marketable product.
- The production of young talent is essential to the long term success but the star names are essential to the short term success, the best young players will all still eventually move to Europe but if they get 2/3 years out of them before they move and the same at the end of their careers I think they will be satisfied.

I remember Roddy Doyle talking many moons ago about his idea of buying a LOI club (I think it was Pat's?) and bringing the likes of Moran & Aldo back to play I realise there aren't that many "Star" names from recent years of Irish football that you could bring back but I think it's a good idea to draw the non-initiated fan off their barstool.

[pineapple stu]

I remember Roddy Doyle talking many moons ago about his idea of buying a LOI club (I think it was Pat's?) and bringing the likes of Moran & Aldo back to play I realise there aren't that many "Star" names from recent years of Irish football that you could bring back but I think it's a good idea to draw the non-initiated fan off their barstool.
So you think the way forward for the league is to go back to what screwed it over in the 70s?

[osarusan]

So you think the way forward for the league is to go back to what screwed it over in the 70s?

Bit harsh isnt it?

Bringing back some washed-up ex Premiership player probably would bring in a few new fans, and probably wouldn't hurt the standard of the eL either. As long as clubs aren't spending money they dont have, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

[pineapple stu]

Bringing back some washed-up ex Premiership player probably would bring in a few new fans, and probably wouldn't hurt the standard of the eL either. As long as clubs aren't spending money they dont have, I wouldn't have a problem with it.
Not entirely sure how they could manage the former without doing the latter, to be honest. Clubs have enough trouble at the moment. Plus the likes of Jason Gavin and Owen Morrison aren't exactly huge draws at present. To generate any interest, you'd have to be looking at the equivalent of George Best, Bobby Charlton, Geoff Hurst, Gordon Banks, Peter Lorimer, etc, all of whom played here, were ineffective and cost their clubs large sums of money.

[dublinred]

Do they seriously think they will be allowed to kick out almost half of next seasons premier division without all hell breaking loose.

[pineapple stu]

Was thinking that as well. An August 2009 start means this would have to be the last proper season, with those lucky ones presumably not starting until August (what's the point in dropping out half way through?) and the unlucky ones also not having a league next year if no-one else is around.

[endabob1]

So you think the way forward for the league is to go back to what screwed it over in the 70s?

you think the world hasn't changed since the 70's, honestly a bit of friction in the middle east & an oil crisis and all of a sudden it's 1977 again, next thing you know Dr Who will be back on tv :D

[jebus]

The proposals are rubbish, the only bright point if this happened would be seeing Dundalk fans spontaneously combust when the news is announced (if their over-reaction on this thread is anything to go by). I wouldn't be happy with Limerick being included at present by the way (certainly we won't have our house fully in order by this time next year I'd imagine), and would only accept it if they started throwing in clubs in similar financial states (Sligo, Galway etc.), anyway on to this


I think the idea is that with a proper scheme for generating them funds, and probably with a generous donation from Platinum One, Limerick FC and Galway Utd would not be the jokes they are now. Its a bit unfair to class them together, also. Galway may be struggling with mediocre crowds and tight finances but they've been rooted to the foot of the table so long that their attendances really aren't that poor - they're matching St Pats at the top.

Limerick on the other hand don't have a stadium, don't have many fans

We rent a stadium, Galway do likewise don't they? We average 650 a match, I'd like to see Galway and Cork do likewise after so many years in the wilderness. If we were 'promoted' we'd pull in the same level of fans as Galway easily. The Limerick sporting public are even more fickle than the rest of Ireland when it comes to only backing success, but they will start supporting the club if the club starts performing on the pitch. You also forget that we actually have quite a sizeable amount of people who remember when Limerick were one of the better clubs in Ireland, and having a background of success helps rebuild that solid fanbase that every club needs, I think this is one thing that the Galway board didn't reckon with when drawing up their prospective attendance targets.


and don't exactly put much into the 'match day experience' beyond apologising afterward when you've been spit at

You forgot to add in that this happened after some of Cork's buffoons antagonized our buffoons before, during and after the game. Still though, no need for facts when Gavin's painting his thought process for us is there? Sorry we only apologised for it afterwards too Gav, we really should have started a Maddy McCann style newspaper appeal to catch these thugs too :rolleyes:

[pete]

Whatever way you look at it there is little or no future for at least half the first division clubs (it is fairly obvious who they are without picking on them). Even the top Premier division clubs cannot continue on current path so something has to change.

In particular I think the first division clubs need to assess what their future ambitions are. After that it is easy to assess if that matches the remainder of the LOI.

[Steve Bruce]

I was wondering how the LOI would operate if this AIL starts in the middle of the LOI season.

Will the participents of the AIL from the LOI just have a prolonged close season?

[Mr A]

I was wondering how the LOI would operate if this AIL starts in the middle of the LOI season.

Will the participents of the AIL from the LOI just have a prolonged close season?

With players on 52 week contracts? They'd all be broke before the league even started!

[holidaysong]

I was wondering how the LOI would operate if this AIL starts in the middle of the LOI season.

Will the participents of the AIL from the LOI just have a prolonged close season?

You could get the LOI to have a 'mini-season' running from March to July (maybe just playing each other twice) with the AIL then kicking off in August and the LOI reverting to a winter season (this would be necessary to facilitate promotion and relegation between the AIL and LOI). Something similar happened when we switched from winter to summer.

[passerrby]

I agree with pete kick out all the club who have money problems, ground issues and sustainability problems , dont let them back until they can convince us of there long term futures and let the rest of us get on with the game... bloody spoilsports

[OneRedArmy]

I've said this before and been shouted down, but if you want lessons in how to revive a league that was percevied as a joke league populated by plumbers, postmen, has beens & never will be's then look at the Australian league.Here's the nub of the problem.

You can either accept Stu's assertion that domestic professional football is untenable or you accept that radical surgery is required to grow the game.
To make domestic football "succeed" by attracting the missing majority (aka Johnny Premiership Barstooler) you need to change the perception of the current League and to do this you need to start with a blank canvas a la Australia.

By doing this, you do away with the history of clubs and disenfranchise the hardcore element of the existing league clubs (ie most people on this forum).

Obviously not a particularly appealing vision to me or most posters on here (to anyone but Johnny Barstooler, or some of the people who have invested money in clubs) but I could see it going this way.

Its the elephant in the room that for obvious reasons none of us want to talk about.:(

[jebus]

Its the elephant in the room that for obvious reasons none of us want to talk about.:(

Never understood this, I mean who was actually in a room with a few people and an elephant and they didn't actually talk about it until the elephant had sauntered off?

On your point though, I've been thinking the last few days that professional football in this country may have to go down the route of the GAA for it to succeed. That would mean junior clubs feeding a county or counties team that goes forward to a national tournament. That would mean disbanding all current football clubs in their current form (or clubs dropping back to the junior leagues) and players being handpicked to represent Cork County, 2 or 3 Dublin City teams (City/County/Utd/whatever), Galway/Sligo (merger), Limerick/Waterford (merger), rest of Leinster, rest of Munster, Derry and rest of Connaught. Obviously it would mean the death of football, as we know it, on this island, but I could see how the higher ups could see it as a potential money spinner (given the right marketing), and I think it would get the backing of the junior clubs that have wanted to do away with the LoI for quite some time.

[thedoyler]

I cannot see why they can't just bring the idea of merging the 2 premier divisions together from 2009 with whatever clubs are in it and the 2 first divisions. I echo the sentiments of others here a 10 team league with no relegation for the first while will become boring, having to play the same team 4 times in a league season is crap imo. Their proposal would create an even bigger gap between the top division and smaller clubs thus killing of up to 15 clubs in our own league and more than 20 in the northern league. If the new product is going to be 'so attractive' that the crowds will flock, who will want to watch bray vs wexford playing for nothing really bar the hardcore. It could work but a lot more thought needs to put in to accomadate as many clubs as possible on the gravy train, instead of creating hotspots of interest across the country, the problem with the national league is that people in counties without teams have no affintity for it, which is where the GAA works so well playing on the county pride etc etc.

[pineapple stu]

You can either accept Stu's assertion that domestic professional football is untenable or you accept that radical surgery is required to grow the game.
The complete opopsite of my assertion in fact. If you want to discuss things, kindly avoid making up counter-arguments.


With players on 52 contracts? They'd all be broke before the league even started!
No they won't. Have you not read the proposals? Everything'd be rosy.

[OneRedArmy]

But if that future involves average gates of 1500 and part-time teams because Johnny Bar Stool doesn't care about the league, then we have to accept that straight off and work within those constraints. That's more of a future than magic 150% crowd increases.I interpreted this statement as meaning professional football in untenable.

Am I mistaken?:confused:

[mr.untitled]

The only reason there is money men behind pats, Drogs and Cork is the lure of franchise football, sure, there are alot of problems with this proposal but the basics are along the lines of whats needed if professional football on this island is to survive.
Franchise sounds like a dirty word to supporters but its what business men want to hear. Any AIL needs investors and this is the way to get them.

[endabob1]

Here's the nub of the problem.

You can either accept Stu's assertion that domestic professional football is untenable or you accept that radical surgery is required to grow the game.
To make domestic football "succeed" by attracting the missing majority (aka Johnny Premiership Barstooler) you need to change the perception of the current League and to do this you need to start with a blank canvas a la Australia.

By doing this, you do away with the history of clubs and disenfranchise the hardcore element of the existing league clubs (ie most people on this forum).

Obviously not a particularly appealing vision to me or most posters on here (to anyone but Johnny Barstooler, or some of the people who have invested money in clubs) but I could see it going this way.

Its the elephant in the room that for obvious reasons none of us want to talk about.:(

The Australian model is interesting because there are a lot of paralells but some of the old NSL Clubs continued into the new A league, so while there were a lot of changes and radical changes it wasn't an entirely blank canvas.

The most interesting thing is the attendances, without looking it up and working from memory the new "franchise" clubs have been in general way more succesfull at getting new supporters than the old NSL sides who have joined the A league, in fact Perth Glory the club with the longest history of the 3 who did move from NSL to A League have actually seen their attendances go down

[pete]

Franchise sounds like a dirty word to supporters but its what business men want to hear. Any AIL needs investors and this is the way to get them.

Like it or not franchise football is on its way. It could be argued it has already arrived via Fingal & Limerick. Cork City was essentially a franchise when it was created.

I believe the FAI has no interest in supporting 22 senior clubs but just needs a nice way (licencing) to bring this about. Less clubs means more money for each club. No use investing millions in facilities for clubs with crowds in the hundreds.