Irish Sunderland fan here. Debate very interesting

[irishboy99]

on the website.
Some very negative towards Keane/Quinn/Drumville.
To be honest many seem to be just sad that the LOI cannot attract investment into the game but there is no way Keane/Quinn/Drumville are interested in helping the LOI, and I am sure the mature audience in here realize that.
The investment in Uk football comes to many clubs -Sunderland, Man U, Liverpool, Chelsea, Reading etc etc. Some are from money interested parties, some from fans (wigan athletic chairman).
The LOI will always be a minority interest in this country and most clubs seem to be happy with that. I love to see them do well but like many who follow clubs in the UK they never captured our interest when we were kids.
I have been a Sunderland fan since 1981 when I saw them play Liverpool and was amazed at the passion and support of their fans. I was hooked. Before that I saw the great Dundalk team in the early eighties but while I keep an eye out for them they never got under my skin.
As an example of the modern youths, my son is a Liverpool fan, we live in Dublin but there is no LOI club that any of the kids follow. I asked him once if he wanted to see a LOI game as we had nothing to do on a Friday and he looked at me like I was mad. Sorry for the ramble but the vilification of Sunderland is silly. The club had a massive local fan base before the irish involvement and will always keep that

[BohsFans]

The LOI will always be a minority interest in this country and most clubs seem to be happy with that.

:rolleyes:

Please explain.

[CharlesThompson]

In your opinion, would you like to see an Irish side doing well in Europe? i.e. reach the group stages of Champions League or Uefa Cup. If so would you go along to support them?

[Jerry The Saint]

I love to see them do well

Super! Thanks for that, it really means a lot to all of us.:)

[OneRedArmy]

The LOI will always be a minority interest in this countryIs that what they call a self fulfilling prophecy?!

Hardly deserves a new thread.

[Philly]

The Sunderland thing has just proved how easily bought and sold theres so called "soccer lovers" are bought and sold over in England.

Just think about it logically - sir.

You are Irish, yes?

You support a team from England - Sunderland of all teams.

Now, does that reeeealy make any sense?

I mean. You have a local team I'm sure. Yea, they might not be a big club, but it's where you come from so tough ****, I know the feeling, I'm from Kildare.

The reason LOI doesn't attract investment is because smart investors know that Irish people are such bloody good patriots and fans that they'd much rather throw their money across the water than actually even attend the odd game for their hometown club.

Bottom line: You are just a customer. A statistic in the Drumville business plan. Nothing more - nothing less.

[A face]

First post ..... is it trolling?

Will anyone bite i wonder?

[TheBoss]

Slightly off topic here, What annoys me about Sunderland is hearing their results on the radio and not hearing the other Championship scores. Or when Setanta show a EPL game @ 3.00, Sunderland's score pops up in the corner and no other Championship score. I find it embarrassing, Everyone in Ireland is all of a sudden a Sunderland supporter, joke. Its like every Irish person is suppose to support Celtic, well, I do not.

[irishboy99]

From my perspective and I am an outsider looking in many ways the clubs do very little to attract new interest from the new generation of soccer supporter so I take from that that the clubs are happy with the status quo.
As to the comment would I like to see them do well in the CL or UEFA cup? I said that "I would love to see them do well" but that goes for any irish club in any sport. Would I go along to watch them? No. They are not my club but I am sure there would be many bandwagon jumpers (like there is at present) with Sunderland and LOI clubs maybe happy with that but its the getting them back that is the killer. I think that you all will just have to accept as things stand that LOI has very little sway with vast numbers of soccer supporting people in Ireland. For those that support LOI, great but please, please do not rundown other people for their love of other clubs whether that is in England, scotland etc. :)

[Philly]

I notices in one national publication Sunderlands position and name on the table were highlighted. And not when they were in first place. They certainly have the media on their side.

[irishboy99]

Bottom line: You are just a customer. A statistic in the Drumville business plan. Nothing more - nothing less.

Philly: You are failing to read my initial post. I am a Sunderland fan since 1981 when Niall quinn was playing hurling for Dublin minors. Unless I had a crystal ball I would hardly know who the later owners were going to be.
I totally reject your assumption. I am "Sunderland till I die" as the chant goes:)

[Poor Student]

For those that support LOI, great but please, please do not rundown other people for their love of other clubs whether that is in England, scotland etc. :)

Why? Why do you feel the need to come here and justify yourself? Is there a feeling of guilt ebbing away somewhere in you?

[BohsFans]

Slightly off topic here, What annoys me about Sunderland is hearing their results on the radio and not hearing the other Championship scores. Or when Setanta show a EPL game @ 3.00, Sunderland's score pops up in the corner and no other Championship score. I find it embarrassing, Everyone in Ireland is all of a sudden a Sunderland supporter, joke. Its like every Irish person is suppose to support Celtic, well, I do not.

In fairness, they do it for Dunfermline's scores as well.

Irish manager.

[Philly]

You aren't a soccer supporter, you are a customer. People don't support Sunderland, they consume it. Give it up like! If you don't like what you are seeing you can switch the channel. If the TV goes bust you can't even see the team you "support". If a TV channel doesn't deem their matches worth showing, you can't see them in action. It's like any TV show. The Premiership is just like the OC at this stage, excepth the Premiership gets repeated more often.

Sunderland is an end product, just like most big English clubs. The only link you have to it is your wallet - and that's all they want too.

There are about 20,000 soccer SUPPORTERS in this country. You'll find them standing out in whatever the conditions are on a Friday or Saturday night. They don't have the pleasure of action replays or alternate angles, but they get to be there and support a real club, their club.

Don't forget to re-new your Sky Subscription.

[TheBoss]

Setanta have always given all Scottish results in the corners cause they own the rights and stuff like that.

[Philly]

Philly: You are failing to read my initial post. I am a Sunderland fan since 1981 when Niall quinn was playing hurling for Dublin minors. Unless I had a crystal ball I would hardly know who the later owners were going to be.
I totally reject your assumption. I am "Sunderland till I die" as the chant goes:)

I don't care when you decided to follow them mate. Fact is you were a customer then and still are now. Not a supporter. They don't need you. They wouldn't notice it if you never showed again.

[irishboy99]

Why? Why do you feel the need to come here and justify yourself? Is there a feeling of guilt ebbing away somewhere in you?

No not at all. The reason I came on the board was there was a link to the website on www.readytogo.net to this board saying "bitter irish fans" and I was very surprised to see that it was true for some individuals.
I dont need to justify myself but thought a different perspective from an irish Sunderland supporter would go some way to redressing the balance. Dont worry it is my first and last post to the board and I feel better ;)

[BohsFans]

Setanta have always given all Scottish results in the corners cause they own the rights and stuff like that.

Not all of them 'as the goals go in'.
Only Celtic, Rangers and Dunfermline. -FACT!

[skitz3]

Philly good point and one i never really considered before.

Irishboy99,what time is your flight to Sunderland for tomorrow nights game? Have you booked your flights for the Luton game yet? I'm sure you have seeing as you're such a big supporter and all.

[irishboy99]

I don't care when you decided to follow them mate. Fact is you were a customer then and still are now. Not a supporter. They don't need you. They wouldn't notice it if you never showed again.

Now you are really being silly. Explain the difference to me. Be careful. I shall keep rubbishing your arguments if you keep up the same logic.:rolleyes:

[irishboy99]

Philly good point and one i never really considered before.

Irishboy99,what time is your flight to Sunderland for tomorrow nights game? Have you booked your flights for the Luton game yet? I'm sure you have seeing as you're such a big supporter and all.

I am flying tomorrow at 09:25 to Leeds/Bradford (as all the new Sunderland Keano supporters from Cork :( ) have booked out the Tyne/Tees airport and driving to Seaburn(a B&B suburb of Sunderland). That good enough for ya:)

[skitz3]

That good enough for ya:)

Not really,thats one game. Next question,how many times have you carried out this practise this season?

[TheBoss]

Not all of them 'as the goals go in'.
Only Celtic, Rangers and Dunfermline. -FACT!

Never noticed it.

But is daft why they do it for only Irish managers.

[irishboy99]

This is the first time I have accessed this website.
It well run, seems professional but some of the stuff about Sunderland did cheese me off. I am a Sunderland fan since 81 and to tarnish all irish sunderland fans the same is silly. There has been 2 Sunderland supporters branches in Ireland, the one in the North has been going for a very long time.
The links to Sunderland are via Shipping, mining, the university and Charley Hurley!

[BohDiddley]

I've been following an English club way longer than you've been following Sunderland (and my English club is much better than your English club :p ). Nearly every Irish football fan follows an English club, and has done so since the advent of television. That's not at issue.

What is new is the direct appeal of British clubs aggressively marketing in Ireland, and the hordes leaving this island every weekend to support British teams. It's not about patriotism or xenophobia or insulting Sunderland or other English fans, as some would like to portray it. It's about supporting football where you live, in a real sense, with a real connection. I think they understand that in Sunderland better than most.

What's special about the Sunderland case is that Quinn also likes to portray himself as a supporter of the domestic game.

[skitz3]

How many times this season have travelled to see Sunderland?

[Philly]

Okay. You want to know the difference between watching Sunderland - a team in a different country - on TV (When Sky decides their match is market worthy) - at home or in a pub. You are a customer. Have you ever looked at what football CEOs are saying in the business section of papers? They market themselves to you, sign plays that please target markets etc. Just look at the Boylesports deal.

Actually I am not going to get into a debate about the difference.

If you cannot see the difference between looking at a Sundireland game - when Sky show one - and following your club week in week out, no matter what the weather, win or lose, home or away. Well if you cannot see any difference there, I give up on you lot. Keep thinking you are supporters of soccer as your senior local club starves because your too busy consuming Sky TV to actually support a club.

[irishboy99]

It's about supporting football where you live, in a real sense, with a real connection.

So tell me who for example in Dublin in the huge number of suburbs who should they be supporting. I can think of vast areas of Dublin where there is no 'local' LOI team.

[ollie]

I am "Sunderland till I die" as the chant goes:)
Say that yourself again-does it not sound even a little sad!?
i have no problem with pple having a soft spot for another team from another country(i do myself even) but going this far...:rolleyes:

[Philly]

Any club in Dublin is surely a lot more local than Sunderland?

Oh no. There I go again with my crazy logic......

[Saint MacDara]

So tell me who for example in Dublin in the huge number of suburbs who should they be supporting. I can think of vast areas of Dublin where there is no 'local' LOI team.

I live a few miles away from Richmond Park (St Pat's if you didnt know),it's not on my doorstep but neither is Sunderland for you.Im not criticising you,we both make the effort to support our clubs but maybe you should give the LOI club nearest to you a visit one Friday night.You dont seem to mind travelling,you dont need ID or a plane ticket.

You might just enjoy the friday night lights.

[BohDiddley]

So tell me who for example in Dublin in the huge number of suburbs who should they be supporting. I can think of vast areas of Dublin where there is no 'local' LOI team.
If you're from north Dublin, your local team, should you choose to support Irish football, historically is Bohemian FC (no Wimbledon, no BSkyB!).
If you're from south Dublin, you are blessed with the choice of Shamrock Rovers or Shelbourne.*
You will find, especially in the latter two cases, although this no doubt will be argued, that the football is less than Premiership-perfick (as is that of most EPL teams when you watch 90 minutes).
But you will also find that if you, and people like you, and their sons, can get past the TV brainwashing and get behind a 'local' (your word) Dublin team, it will improve, as if by magic. It won't do if you continue to buy and to promote Sunderland alone.

*I forgot Pat's. I do apologise. As everyone knows, they're real local...

[don ramo]

I am flying tomorrow at 09:25 to Leeds/Bradford (as all the new Sunderland Keano supporters from Cork :( ) have booked out the Tyne/Tees airport and driving to Seaburn(a B&B suburb of Sunderland). That good enough for ya:)

that funny im not, my club was keanes first senior club and as i wish him the best i have no intention of going to sunderland to watch them i dont watch them on tv either i watch the highlights on the premiership (cue explosion) and the championship (set off the flare yeah) se what i done i seperated them by how good they are, the bigger team gets the bigger bang so you know what your watchin, like drones, follow the big bang, that is what english soccer is sky made sure of it, not even sky american football started it all with the big boons to talk into to, the explosions and all that, it so sterile and im hundreds of miles from it, but they dont need me cause there is alwyas someone else to folow the bandwagon, follow away but your not a fan a fan is out in the rain (well sun for the summer months the two of them) every wekend following there club, and comin here to give out to each other great fun, im not the type to go the pub every time man u are on tv if i feel like it ill watch it but if not woulnt bother me, if i missed my club play i would be a bit upset no body would stop me seeing my club play,

[lofty9]

Irishboy,

As absurd as it seems to you I find it impossible to put an English football team ahead of an Irish one. I just don't understand that psyche. Your a Dub? You support Dublin in hurling and football? I presume so. Therefore, why would you support a soccer team outside Dublin, nevermind an English one? I couldn't imagine a Derryman supporting Shelbourne, Bohs or Cork.

I have friends from South America who stay with me every winter, they cannot understand why someone Irish would support an English football team. It's alien to them, in fact one who supports a team in Chile said it's like him following a Brazilian or Argentinian team. He said he'd rather cut off his balls.

It's all well and good looking out for results of Irishmen in those teams but getting conned by them to buy jerseys and season tickets is embarrassing.

Anyhow it's no longer 1981, no longer a working class man's game in England and Sunderland. All the passion you saw then has evaporated out of the English game.

[irishboy99]

where I grew up in Stillorgan. I was always interested in soccer and the GAA and my first LOI game was Shamrock rvs vs Dundalk. But none of my friends were interested in LOI. No connection to the Dublin clubs. Just another area where their reach was minimal. I got brought to a Liverpool vs Sunderland game and was seated very close to the Sunderland support. Their passion is still etched on my mind nearly 25yrs later. When I told everyone I was going to support them never once did anyone say "Why dont you support a LOI club" not even in Sunderland where they understand that many irish soccer supporters for many reasons historical, passed down from father to son have great love of clubs yes in ENGLAND. If you feel you are a better supporter than them try going to Dublin airport and watch them look at you as if come from a different plant. I prefer to leave it that we have the right to support Beijing FC if needs be.....I leave it at that.:)

[soccerc]

If you feel you are a better supporter than them try going to Dublin airport and watch them look at you as if come from a different plant.

...and from my perspective "native supporters" of UK clubs in UK citiies look at those who travel to be a customer of their club exactly the same way.

Can I ask the following

Are you involved with any club, schoolboy or junior in Dublin as a volunteer or player?

Do you go to Ireland international games?

[Poor Student]

Irishboy, the proximity argument in Dublin is stupid. You can easily slice Dublin into: South Dublin = Rovers, South Dublin City = Pat's, Dun Laoighre/Rathdown = UCD, North Dublin City/Fingal = Shels and Bohs. In any point in those small regions if it's too far for you to travel to see the clubs within those regions then it makes not the slightest amount of sense to leave the country to find a team to follow instead.

By the way, your new argument is weak. "No one else was interested so neither was I." It's not an exaggeration to say it's people with an attitude exactly like yours that ensure our domestic game remains weak. We have the necessary population to sustain a stronger league if the money and passengers that are funneled abroad to the UK to watch football over here remained here. To stick with the domestic theme, our own Edmund Burke said "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Obviously I'm not calling you evil but the sentiment remains the same, our game will continue to remain weak while people like yourselves put no investment into it be that financial or emotional.

[bray boy]

in any other country then ireland people who support a local team get respect.here wen i say who i support im always asked a second question :no who do ya support in england an i say no1 they kinda give me a patronisng chuckle it annoys me soooo much. wen i ask dem how many times theve seen 'dere team' play their only come bak is:your team is s***.football really is crazy in this country

[irishboy99]

Irishboy, the proximity argument in Dublin is stupid. You can easily slice Dublin into: South Dublin = Rovers, South Dublin City = Pat's, Dun Laoighre/Rathdown = UCD, North Dublin City/Fingal = Shels and Bohs. In any point in those small regions if it's too far for you to travel to see the clubs within those regions then it makes not the slightest amount of sense to leave the country to find a team to follow instead.

By the way, your new argument is weak. "No one else was interested so neither was I." It's not an exaggeration to say it's people with an attitude exactly like yours that ensure our domestic game remains weak. We have the necessary population to sustain a stronger league if the money and passengers that are funneled abroad to the UK to watch football over here remained here. To stick with the domestic theme, our own Edmund Burke said "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Obviously I'm not calling you evil but the sentiment remains the same, our game will continue to remain weak while people like yourselves put no investment into it be that financial or emotional.

Let me go thru your points one by one
1. South Dublin = Rovers. Let me state again. Noone I was friends with was interested in Shamrock rovers. So being a child I needed someone to bring me.Shamrock rvs were never on TV so that source of interest never came to me. However English soccer came thru Jimmy Hill and Dickie Davis for those old enough to remember. I loved soccer but did not support any team when I was younger. I had no reason. See above how my love of Sunderland came about.
2. "our domestic game remains weak." It remains weak for many many reasons. The important of which is that the best players go to England. The influx of English TV (dont think of SKY, there are newbees, think BBC and ITV over the years), poor product, poor facilities and since the irish have got richer then dont accept bad facilities

3. "We have the necessary population to sustain a stronger league if the money and passengers that are funneled abroad to the UK to watch football over here remained here." So explain how your propose that should happen?

4. "people like yourselves put no investment into it be that financial or emotional." - Again ask yourself why this is the case. Why are we choosing to go to watch football elsewhere. Remember that the majority of people who really support teams in the UK were brought by parents, family members or some local sports group. Why are there thousands of irish people members of supporters clubs in the uk?

And does it really matter to you that much...:confused:

[Tir Oilean]

in any other country then ireland people who support a local team get respect.here wen i say who i support im always asked a second question :no who do ya support in england an i say no1 they kinda give me a patronisng chuckle it annoys me soooo much. wen i ask dem how many times theve seen 'dere team' play their only come bak is:your team is s***.football really is crazy in this country

Your not the only one Seagull I get that **** all the time. When I go into the local though I am like an ambassador for the club. I'm always asked how was the last game etc by the bar stoolers but i've managed to encourage a few of them to make the trip up the Dyke rd a few times. I always reply to the "Yere ****" comments by telling them they have to come to Terryland before they can pass comment on our soccer ability and only then are they entitled to have an opinion in my mind.

[Poor Student]

Let me go thru your points one by one
1. South Dublin = Rovers. Let me state again. Noone I was friends with was interested in Shamrock rovers. So being a child I needed someone to bring me.Shamrock rvs were never on TV so that source of interest never came to me. However English soccer came thru Jimmy Hill and Dickie Davis for those old enough to remember. I loved soccer but did not support any team when I was younger. I had no reason. See above how my love of Sunderland came about.

I mean South Dublin as in the administrative county i.e. where Tallaght is. Stillorgan would fall under UCD's theoretical sphere of influence now. I understand your story, but you're an adult now, you have freedom of travel and freedom to operate sensibly outwidth peer pressure.


2. "our domestic game remains weak." It remains weak for many many reasons. The important of which is that the best players go to England. The influx of English TV (dont think of SKY, there are newbees, think BBC and ITV over the years), poor product, poor facilities and since the irish have got richer then dont accept bad facilities

At the root of it all is a lack of interest from the Irish public. Your lack of interest and many like you ensures that the finances will never become available to change the facilities and the large TV money will never be forthcoming.


3. "We have the necessary population to sustain a stronger league if the money and passengers that are funneled abroad to the UK to watch football over here remained here." So explain how your propose that should happen?

By people like yourself not funneling your hard earned cash across the Irish sea but investing it in the local game.


And does it really matter to you that much...:confused:

It does actually. Maybe that's why I'm a supporter and you're a consumer.

[irishboy99]

Are you involved with any club, schoolboy or junior in Dublin as a volunteer or player?

Do you go to Ireland international games?

I was secretary for a UCL team playing in the southside for 2 years organizing the pitch,nets, insurance, getting the posts put up in the summer, calling players, attending disciplany meetings with David Flood barking orders at the top table (when he was in charge of the UCL)and a player for the club in both the UCL and amateur league from 1991 to 1999. Then I moved to a northside club for 1 year as a player. As for the Republic I last saw them in a friendly vs China at Landsdowne.

[bray boy]

no its not even them sayin my team r crap its lik they luk down at me wen i say that i dont support an english team its jus mad

[BohsFans]

trip up the Dyke rd a few times.

:eek:

lesbians?

:D

[irishboy99]

By people like yourself not funneling your hard earned cash across the Irish sea but investing it in the local game.
It does actually. Maybe that's why I'm a supporter and you're a consumer.

I think that your arguments are lost on my generation of supporter but if you feel that you can influence the next generation I would feel that has some merit but the clubs need to go to the schools and the community in a much bigger way and in a much wider radius, offer free tickets, invite inward investment for a share of the club, run it with real business professionals, find a way to offer good contracts to players who want to go to England (a bit like Leinster in the Rugby). My generation is lost. The bug bit for me when I watched a game in a big stadium(anfield) watching very passionate supporters(sunderland) with great facilities.
The next generation are there for the taking but alot has to change. As for being a consumer then if it means paying for my ticket, my flight, my B and B then I am a consumer but I regard myself as a supporter as well and if you are a better supporter than me then fair play to you

[BohsFans]

Let me go thru your points one by one
1. South Dublin = Rovers. Let me state again. Noone I was friends with was interested in Shamrock rovers. So being a child I needed someone to bring me.Shamrock rvs were never on TV so that source of interest never came to me. However English soccer came thru Jimmy Hill and Dickie Davis for those old enough to remember. I loved soccer but did not support any team when I was younger. I had no reason. See above how my love of Sunderland came about.
2. "our domestic game remains weak." It remains weak for many many reasons. The important of which is that the best players go to England. The influx of English TV (dont think of SKY, there are newbees, think BBC and ITV over the years), poor product, poor facilities and since the irish have got richer then dont accept bad facilities

3. "We have the necessary population to sustain a stronger league if the money and passengers that are funneled abroad to the UK to watch football over here remained here." So explain how your propose that should happen?

4. "people like yourselves put no investment into it be that financial or emotional." - Again ask yourself why this is the case. Why are we choosing to go to watch football elsewhere. Remember that the majority of people who really support teams in the UK were brought by parents, family members or some local sports group. Why are there thousands of irish people members of supporters clubs in the uk?

And does it really matter to you that much...:confused:


I'm sick of the 'poor product, poor facilities' argument!

Fans the world over watch crap football in questionable stadiums, and the reason they do is to support their local team.
It was probably handed down to them from their fathers though!

[BohsFans]

I think that your arguments are lost on my generation of supporter but if you feel that you can influence the next generation I would feel that has some merit but the clubs need to go to the schools and the community in a much bigger way and in a much wider radius, offer free tickets, invite inward investment for a share of the club, run it with real business professionals, find a way to offer good contracts to players who want to go to England (a bit like Leinster in the Rugby). My generation is lost. The bug bit for me when I watched a game in a big stadium(anfield) watching very passionate supporters(sunderland) with great facilities.
The next generation are there for the taking but alot has to change. As for being a consumer then if it means paying for my ticket, my flight, my B and B then I am a consumer but I regard myself as a supporter as well and if you are a better supporter than me then fair play to you

Speaking of that I heard the UCD radio ad today.
They had a kid on last saying "......... part time school goer/student, full time UCD fan" (or something along those lines)! :D

[Poor Student]

Irishboy, while the future of domestic football relies more on captivating the youth of today to avert someone arriving at a situation where you have at this point in your life, it's not irreversible. I came through a similar situation as yourself, my passion being Celtic. I still love them and watch them at any opportunity on TV but with the freedom that comes with maturity I became encapsulated by domestic soccer and my local team. You're never too old to do so. Very few people will castigate you for having an interest or passion for a foreign club in addition (though a few will) but most of us just want people to take an interest in the domestic Irish game and with their added investment (in all senses) to push the game forward here. People could then enjoy a product of a high standard here without having to travel abroad to do so.

[Poor Student]

Speaking of that I heard the UCD radio ad today.
They had a kid on last saying "......... part time school goer/student, full time UCD fan" (or something along those lines)! :D

That's possibly foot.ie's very own dmythdmandlegend.:D He must be a fair aul dosser alright.;)

[TonyD]

I'm sick of the 'poor product, poor facilities' argument!

Fans the world over watch crap football in questionable stadiums, and the reason they do is to support their local team.
It was probably handed down to them from their fathers though!

Exactly. The stadia in England weren't always the shiny seated theatres of today, I'm sure as a Sunderland "supporter" since 1981 you remember Roker Park Irishboy. I'm not saying it was LOI standard, but it was hardly Old Trafford was it. English people have never had this hang up about facilities, or standard of play. Let me put it to you this way Irishboy, when Sunderland were relegated, did you say "sod this lower division football lark, I'm following Liverpool from now on"? In my view Irish people use those arguments as an excuse, because supporting a local team, week in, week out, takes more committment than just sitting in front of the TV. Couple of final points Irish boy - have you seen any of the local games on TV this season ? Do you not think the standard of the game here has improved. Finally, has it ever occurred to you that if people like yourself (and I'm only really picking on you cause you stuck your head above the parapet) went to local games that the standard of play, and the facilities would gradually improve as more money came into the game ? It is possible to become hooked you know. I've only been a regular at Richmond Park for the last twelve or thirteen years. I'd only been to games sporadically before that. However, once you become emotionally involved with your "own" team(for want of a better phrase) there is nothing that comes close. Trust me, no English team could give you a similar feeling.