Irish Sunderland fan here. Debate very interesting [Archive] - Page 7

dcfcsteve

08/05/2007, 1:21 PM

well you have a number of Irish players at some english clubs- i presume that is a big factor!

Ehhhhh ????? :confused:

Aren't there "a number of Irish players" at Irish clubs too.....? :confused:

If someone born in Ireland played for England, would the Irish suddenly start supporting the English international team ???

Supporting an English teamn over Irish ones is effectively no different than supporting THE England team over THE Irish one. Course, you'll never get an English/Scottish club supporter to admit to that.....

osarusan

08/05/2007, 1:29 PM

Supporting an English teamn over Irish ones is effectively no different than supporting THE England team over THE Irish one.

Nonsense. Being born in a country makes you most likely to be a supporter of that country, and, by and large, precludes you from supporting other countries. When supporting a club side, there is an element of free and open choice of which club to support (no matter what eL elitists may say) which is absent at international level.

dcfcsteve

08/05/2007, 1:37 PM

Nonsense. Being born in a country makes you most likely to be a supporter of that country, and, by and large, precludes you from supporting other countries. When supporting a club side, there is an element of free and open choice of which club to support (no matter what eL elitists may say) which is absent at international level.

You forgot the bit that said "in Ireland..." ......

Name me another country in Europe where the overwhelming majority of football supporters reject their own club game in favour of a foreign one ? True - in places like Scotland and England, people are increasingly gravitating towards bigger teams over their loval ones. But at least they're choosing one Scottish/English team over another - not foreign over domestic.

The nearest example I can think of is Norway - but they still support their own game as well (or at least, aren't scathingly dismissive of it). Wales is another possible example, but a strange one in that it's main clubs play in a forign league, and they've only had their own league for 15 years. So I can't think of any clear parallel with Ireland anywhere in Europe. Doesn't that say something.....? :o

I'm sure the Irish would find an excuse to stop supporting the ROI and start chasing after Brazil if they felt it worthwhile. Such is the shameless two-faced muppetry of our national psyche.....

osarusan

08/05/2007, 1:43 PM

stampp

08/05/2007, 1:45 PM

Another point. In general, English football fans dislike those who come from somewhere else with no connection to their clubs. The Man U and Liverpool fans in Ireland should maybe remember that. And it will be the same in Sunderland when the novelty wears off.

As a point of fact, I don't think that's true - I've never seen any evidence of it at Sunderland so far. We've always had quite a few Scandinavian fans, for example, some of whom get to the games when they can, and most fans are just delighted to have support over there and fascinated to meet and talk with them. Even better, our new Trinidad & Tobago fans brought a steel band and scantily-clad 'carnival dancers' - most local lads seemed highly supportive of such cultural diversity ;) .

NY Hoop

08/05/2007, 2:19 PM

As a point of fact, I don't think that's true - I've never seen any evidence of it at Sunderland so far. We've always had quite a few Scandinavian fans, for example, some of whom get to the games when they can, and most fans are just delighted to have support over there and fascinated to meet and talk with them. Even better, our new Trinidad & Tobago fans brought a steel band and scantily-clad 'carnival dancers' - most local lads seemed highly supportive of such cultural diversity ;) .

The Scandinavians love the premiersh1t BUT they support their own clubs. I couldnt give a toss if the whole nation flew over to see sunderland every week if they supported EL clubs to be honest.

KOH

galwayhoop

08/05/2007, 3:43 PM

jebus

08/05/2007, 3:56 PM

I'm sure the Irish would find an excuse to stop supporting the ROI and start chasing after Brazil if they felt it worthwhile. Such is the shameless two-faced muppetry of our national psyche.....

What you mean that supporting the national side that play the dullest football in Europe, having the most tactically inept man in football in charge of the side, having the most tactically inept footballing authorities in charge of selecting the second most tactically inept man in football to succeed our current most tactically inept man in football, coupled with the high cost of supporting the national team isn't enough of an excuse? It's not "two-faced muppetry" to stop supporting the national team, it's just common sense

OneRedArmy

08/05/2007, 4:04 PM

A while back the French international team had no, or very few, first XI players actually playing their domestic football in France.

The French didn't automatically rush to drop PSG, Lyon and whatever their local team was in favour of supporting Chelsea, Juventus and Real Madrid.

jebus

08/05/2007, 4:15 PM

The French didn't automatically rush to drop PSG, Lyon and whatever their local team was in favour of supporting Chelsea, Juventus and Real Madrid.

That doesn't equate to this situation, as most Irish football fans are brought up to support Man Utd, Liverpool, Celtic etc., so they wouldn't have to rush to drop anyone from our leagues

OneRedArmy

09/05/2007, 9:50 AM

That doesn't equate to this situation, as most Irish football fans are brought up to support Man Utd, Liverpool, Celtic etc., so they wouldn't have to rush to drop anyone from our leaguesThe point was in relation to the justification of supporting a foreign club by the fact most of our international players play in that country's League.

reder

09/05/2007, 9:53 AM

Name me another country in Europe where the overwhelming majority of football supporters reject their own club game in favour of a foreign one ?

Any of the Scandanavian countries. I have met umpteen of them who take 2 weeks holidays mid season to travel to the uk and see their team playing. Outside europe, most of Asia supports PL football (i.e. a few billion people do so). Its massive over there.

jebus

09/05/2007, 10:00 AM

Any of the Scandanavian countries. I have met umpteen of them who take 2 weeks holidays mid season to travel to the uk and see their team playing. Outside europe, most of Asia supports PL football (i.e. a few billion people do so). Its massive over there.

A lot of South Americans support La Liga teams, some over their own teams I hear (not sure, have never been to S.America)

reder

09/05/2007, 10:01 AM

Supporting an English teamn over Irish ones is effectively no different than supporting THE England team over THE Irish one.

I cant believe you typed that! You live in NI, judging by your umpteen other posts you support Rep. of Ireland. By your logic you should support NI, surely?

dcfcsteve

09/05/2007, 10:21 AM

I cant believe you typed that! You live in NI, judging by your umpteen other posts you support Rep. of Ireland. By your logic you should support NI, surely?

Firstly - as is clear from the top right-hand corner of every post I've ever made on foot.ie, I live in London.

Secondly - yes I am from NI. But I'm a Catholic nationalist form a city who's team plays it's football in the Republic. For those reasons I support the Republic.

You know full well that there are hundreds of thousands of people who think the same way, so ease up on the poor/cheap shots....

dcfcsteve

09/05/2007, 10:23 AM

Any of the Scandanavian countries. I have met umpteen of them who take 2 weeks holidays mid season to travel to the uk and see their team playing. Outside europe, most of Asia supports PL football (i.e. a few billion people do so). Its massive over there.

But as I pointed out, the Scandis also support their own leagues. Or at the very least don't snear at it dismissively.

The Asians are the biggest muppets of world football, so the less said about them the better. I clearly referred to Europe when I posed the question.

BohsPartisan

09/05/2007, 10:36 AM

The Asians are the biggest muppets of world football, so the less said about them the better. I clearly referred to Europe when I posed the question.

Like these guys? (http://www.hidebehindproxy.info/index.php?q=aHR0cDovL3N0YXRpYy5mbGlja3IuY29tLzQxLz c4MDI3MDY2XzBhYzdmMGE0YWNfby5qcGc%3D)

Steve Bruce

09/05/2007, 10:37 AM

You forgot the bit that said "in Ireland..." ......

Name me another country in Europe where the overwhelming majority of football supporters reject their own club game in favour of a foreign one ? True - in places like Scotland and England, people are increasingly gravitating towards bigger teams over their loval ones. But at least they're choosing one Scottish/English team over another - not foreign over domestic.

The nearest example I can think of is Norway - but they still support their own game as well (or at least, aren't scathingly dismissive of it). Wales is another possible example, but a strange one in that it's main clubs play in a forign league, and they've only had their own league for 15 years. So I can't think of any clear parallel with Ireland anywhere in Europe. Doesn't that say something.....? :o

I'm sure the Irish would find an excuse to stop supporting the ROI and start chasing after Brazil if they felt it worthwhile. Such is the shameless two-faced muppetry of our national psyche.....

Bit like Derry City?

The fact of the matter is, people have the freedom of choice to support what ever football team they want.

Unfortunately most people prefare the bright lights of first class football rather than the standard that our teams play at, which would be league 2 at best.(4th teer in the English game)

And unfortunately Northern Ireland and the Republic suffer from being so close to an exceptional standard that exists in England and with cheap air fares etc, we are fighting a losing battle.

All we can do is try and keep the supporters we have and attract the odd one or two back to our grounds.

Spouting off about people supporting English football or what ever league is not going to entice people back, it is more than likely going to keep them away as they will not feel welcome as a casual supporter.

I'm a Linfield man first and foremost, but I am also a Man Utd man, A Northern Ireland supporters and England supporter who also has a wee look at Scotlands and Wales results.

Democracy and freedom of thought/speech is a great thing and I would never condemn anyone who wishes to support teams of a different league.

jebus

09/05/2007, 10:46 AM

The fact of the matter is, people have the freedom of choice to support what ever football team they want.

Unfortunately most people prefare the bright lights of first class football rather than the standard that our teams play at, which would be league 2 at best.(4th teer in the English game)

Thats it in a nutshell for me.

Lads not all of us equate your 'Irishness' with who you support in football. Some people just look at football as a sport, a hobby/pasttime, and so choose to follow who they get the most enjoyment out of, be it Liverpool, Celtic, St.Pats or Real Madrid, you can call them barstoolers all you want, but I'm pretty sure it won't change their minds as to whether football is community

OneRedArmy

09/05/2007, 10:56 AM

I cant believe you typed that! You live in NI, judging by your umpteen other posts you support Rep. of Ireland. By your logic you should support NI, surely?Take it down from the mast :rolleyes:

BohsPartisan

09/05/2007, 10:57 AM

Some people just look at football as a sport, a hobby/pasttime,

So you admit we are better fans than them!

jebus

09/05/2007, 10:58 AM

So you admit we are better fans than them!

Of course we are! ;)

Poor Student

09/05/2007, 11:00 AM

Name me another country in Europe where the overwhelming majority of football supporters reject their own club game in favour of a foreign one ?

Slovenia.

BohsPartisan

09/05/2007, 11:05 AM

Slovenia.

What league do they predominantly follow? Italy?

Steve Bruce

09/05/2007, 11:10 AM

What league do they predominantly follow? Italy?

That is so.

I was in Slovenia to watch Linfield. We flew into Italy(Triest) and drove to Gorica. It was an hour or so drive.

Torn-Ado

09/05/2007, 12:48 PM

But as I pointed out, the Scandis also support their own leagues. Or at the very least don't snear at it dismissively.

The Asians are the biggest muppets of world football, so the less said about them the better. I clearly referred to Europe when I posed the question.

Many Swedes do support their own teams along with premiership teams but attendances for the Swedish league is poor. And a lot of Swedes sneer at their own league. Basically because its dire.

BohsPartisan

09/05/2007, 12:49 PM

Basically because its dire.

As opposed to the beautiful football you get from watching Liverpool V Chelsea? :rolleyes:

Torn-Ado

09/05/2007, 1:36 PM

As opposed to the beautiful football you get from watching Liverpool V Chelsea? :rolleyes:

Derry City and Cork City won't be knocking Chelsea or Liverpool out of Europe any time soon.

BohsPartisan

09/05/2007, 1:47 PM

Derry City and Cork City won't be knocking Chelsea or Liverpool out of Europe any time soon.

Maybe not but if asked to pay �50STG or (whatever extortianate price those teams are asking to watch them play) to see a game of hoofball or €15 to see two teams get it down and try to play football, I'll pay the €15 thank you very much. If I want to be bored at a game, well I'm a Bohs member and that only costs €330 per year. Teams like Chelsea and Liverpool serve up a rubbish brand of football, doesn't matter how good they are at being boring, they're still boring.

Steve Bruce

09/05/2007, 1:51 PM

Maybe not but if asked to pay �50STG or (whatever extortianate price those teams are asking to watch them play) to see a game of hoofball or �15 to see two teams get it down and try to play football, I'll pay the �15 thank you very much. If I want to be bored at a game, well I'm a Bohs member and that only costs �330 per year. Teams like Chelsea and Liverpool serve up a rubbish brand of football, doesn't matter how good they are at being boring, they're still boring.

I'm not about to defend Liverpool or Chelsea, I hate them both(although Liverpool is a true hatred, Chelsea is a fake hatred, once they start falling away to there level(around about spurs level) my hatred will go)

But with any big team in England(or Scotland) you get more than just a match. There is match day experience that not club on this island can provide, apart from big games.

The atmosphere is umpteen times better, the crowds are a different world & the general standard of play is better.

TV doesn't give the game justice and a lot of the crap matches on tv are far better actually in the ground. When you are caught up in the excitement and atmosphere.

My opinion anyway.

GavinZac

09/05/2007, 1:53 PM

The atmosphere is umpteen times better, the crowds are a different world & the general standard of play is better.
take a trip beyond windsor or united park sometime.

galwayhoop

09/05/2007, 1:55 PM

..... the standard that our teams play at, which would be league 2 at best.(4th teer in the English game)

not having a dig here but the IL* may be on a par with League 2 but I would put the eL at closer to lower half of the chamionship (tier 2).

*yes, yes i know linfield are in the setanta final but sure joe gamble said that they molested football against ye so thats good enough for me ;)

dfx-

09/05/2007, 1:56 PM

Derry City and Cork City won't be knocking Chelsea or Liverpool out of Europe any time soon.

So it's not 'basically because it's dire' then...

BohsPartisan

09/05/2007, 1:57 PM

But with any big team in England(or Scotland) you get more than just a match. There is match day experience that not club on this island can provide, apart from big games.

The atmosphere is umpteen times better, the crowds are a different world &

I disagree with this. I go over to Goodison a couple of times a year and the atmosphere is generally better at whatever game I've been at the night before in Dalyer. In fact its only against the likes of Liverpool and Manure where you can say the atmosphere is any good. The crowds are bigger, but less involved in the game. Numbered seating has ruined the atmosphere at games. There was a time when the Goodison crowd was the proverbial twelfth man. Now there is hardly a peep out of 75% of the Glawdys St for the 90 minutes. Old Trafford too is as quiet as a morgue a lot of the time. The Beer is better in Dalyer than it is in any Premiership ground too!

BohsPartisan

09/05/2007, 2:19 PM

English teams are robbing game of skill, says Valdano

Sid Lowe in Madrid
Tuesday May 8, 2007
The Guardian

The former Real Madrid coach and World Cup winner Jorge Valdano has attacked Rafael Ben�tez and Jose Mourinho, insisting that they are ushering in a bleak future for football and likening the Champions League semi-final between Liverpool and Chelsea to "a **** hanging from a stick".
The Argentinian, who scored in the 1986 World Cup final and has a respected reputation as a football intellectual, claimed that Mourinho and Ben�tez mistrust talent because of their own failure to make it as players and said their approach is bad news for the game.

Read the rest (http://football.guardian.co.uk/News_Story/0,,2074386,00.html)

dcfcsteve

09/05/2007, 2:21 PM

But with any big team in England(or Scotland) you get more than just a match. There is match day experience that not club on this island can provide, apart from big games.

The atmosphere is umpteen times better, the crowds are a different world & the general standard of play is better.

I'm not sure when you last had the whole 'match-day experience' in England Steve ? It's certainly not the case for any English stadiums I've been at this year (e.g. Newcastle, Sunderland, Fulham, Arsenal). The atmosphere at a decent City game would wipe the floor with them hands-down.

And what is 'match-day experience' other than a cliche anyway ?? Apart from a spot of merchandise shopping, eatting a dodgy burger, and savouring any (often non-existent) atmopshere before a game, what exactly is this 'wow' experience we're all meant to be in awe of at the ground of an English club ?? :confused:

BohsPartisan

09/05/2007, 2:24 PM

My favourite bit of the match day experience on my trips to Goodison is a curry chip and a cheese and onion pie up county road followed by a pint in the black horse!

Forgot to add that I've brought a few Premiership regulars who live in England to EL games and they thought the atmosphere p1ssed all over the premiership "match day experience".

Steve Bruce

09/05/2007, 2:24 PM

I'm not sure when you last had the whole 'match-day experience' in England Steve ? It's certainly not the case for any English stadiums I've been at this year (e.g. Newcastle, Sunderland, Fulham, Arsenal). The atmosphere at a decent City game would wipe the floor with them hands-down.

And what is 'match-day experience' other than a cliche anyway ?? Apart from a spot of merchandise shopping, eatting a dodgy burger, and savouring any (often non-existent) atmopshere before a game, what exactly is this 'wow' experience we're all meant to be in awe of at the ground of an English club ?? :confused:

I haven't been over to Old Trafford for 12 years. So if the experiance had changed since then, well I cannot obviously comment.

dcfcsteve

09/05/2007, 2:27 PM

I haven't been over to Old Trafford for 12 years. So if the experiance had changed since then, well I cannot obviously comment.

I'm sure games like Man U v Watford and Reading really set the Old Trafford fan's hearts racing as part of the elusive 'matchday experience'.

The foundations have only just stopped rocking, I understand...

:D

Steve Bruce

09/05/2007, 2:30 PM

not having a dig here but the IL* may be on a par with League 2 but I would put the eL at closer to lower half of the chamionship (tier 2).

*yes, yes i know linfield are in the setanta final but sure joe gamble said that they molested football against ye so thats good enough for me ;)

The IL would sit amongst the Conferance and non-leagues.

Linfield would sit amongst the LOI teams in League 2.

We are no where near Championship material. Maybe we can make two teams out of all the teams on this island that would play in the Championship and even then I think it would be a struggle. League 2 at best for this island.

Steve Bruce

09/05/2007, 2:31 PM

I'm sure games like Man U v Watford and Reading really set the Old Trafford fan's hearts racing as part of the elusive 'matchday experience'.

The foundations have only just stopped rocking, I understand...

:D

When I last went the sell out attendance was around 48000 and there was a terrific atmosphere. We where playing Sheffield Wednesday.

I would have imagined 76000 would have been near twice as good. But then football is more commercialised now than then.

dcfcsteve

09/05/2007, 2:33 PM

My favourite bit of the match day experience on my trips to Goodison is a curry chip and a cheese and onion pie up county road followed by a pint in the black horse!

You see - that's my point ! Your favourite part of the whole 'matchday experience' has catually got fcuk all to do with the club ! Arguably fcuk all to do with football even !

So what is there in the average elusive English "matchday experience" that you can't get at a decent ground and game over here ? Answer = nought. This whole 'matchday experience' notion is just a lazy cliche that people trot out without having a clue what they actually mean by it.

Forgot to add that I've brought a few Premiership regulars who live in England to EL games and they thought the atmosphere p1ssed all over the premiership "match day experience

I'd have to concur as well. I've yet to take someone not involved in Irish football to a City match who doesn't become soem sort of a fan. Have fellas from London, Belfast, Edinburgh, Orkney and Drogheda following us now. :o)

Those who stand amongst us get the bug.....

BohsPartisan

09/05/2007, 2:34 PM

You see - that's my point ! Your favourite part of the whole 'matchday experience' has catually got fcuk all to do with the club ! Arguably fcuk all to do with football even !

That was my point too!

galwayhoop

09/05/2007, 2:37 PM

The IL would sit amongst the Conferance and non-leagues.

Linfield would sit amongst the LOI teams in League 2.

We are no where near Championship material. Maybe we can make two teams out of all the teams on this island that would play in the Championship and even then I think it would be a struggle. League 2 at best for this island.

the likes of southend, luton, qpr, barnsley and hull may, in your opinion, seem like giants to the club teams on this island but imo sides like derry, cork, rovers, drogheda and st pats would have absolutely nothing to fear from these teams and in fact be on a par with them. obviously the upper half of the championship would be a higher standard but the lower half (championship) and upper end of league 1 (at the very lowest) represent our peers accross the water.

Poor Student

09/05/2007, 2:37 PM

What league do they predominantly follow? Italy?

Or the EPL. Games are on national TV at 3 in the afternoon. I think they barstool more than anything. I don't think they're even bothered to head over the border. When Sebastjan Cimerotic, one of their top players at the time playing for Lecce in Serie B, was playing in Trieste a load people headed over to watch him.

I understand a lot of Serbs and Croats also barstool. Their clubs grounds are always majority empty like our own on TV. Red Star Belgrade's Marakana looks ridiculous when they're playing a non-European/non-derby tie, a bit like the away stand in Windsor Pk. for Setanta Cup games.

Erstwhile B�z

09/05/2007, 2:46 PM

Read the rest (http://football.guardian.co.uk/News_Story/0,,2074386,00.html)
Interesting theory (failed player = petrified manager) from Valdano. No doubt the quotes are rehashed from interviews he gave to the Spanish press years ago slating Ben�tez's Valencia team ...

NY Hoop

09/05/2007, 3:10 PM

the likes of southend, luton, qpr, barnsley and hull may, in your opinion, seem like giants to the club teams on this island but imo sides like derry, cork, rovers, drogheda and st pats would have absolutely nothing to fear from these teams and in fact be on a par with them. obviously the upper half of the championship would be a higher standard but the lower half (championship) and upper end of league 1 (at the very lowest) represent our peers accross the water.

Spot on. Billy there is trying to bring us down to IL level. Any premier team here would wipe the floor with League 2 ffs. Lower championship is about right.

KOH

galwayhoop

09/05/2007, 3:24 PM

When I last went the sell out attendance was around 48000 and there was a terrific atmosphere. We where playing Sheffield Wednesday.

I would have imagined 76000 would have been near twice as good. But then football is more commercialised now than then.

so by that token would an irish domestic game with an attendance of 4,000 have about one twelfth the atmosphere???? :confused:
the fact is that the bigger the stadium the more likely it is to have a 'diluted' atmosphere. smaller compact grounds are much better for an atmosphere. i have been to old trafford in the early 90's and again quite recently and i have to say when it was smaller (albeit 45 or 50 thousand capacity) it was a far better place from an atmosphere standpoint.

from talking to regular attending man utd fans they reckon that the atmosphere in old trafford has been pure sh1te for a good few years (although it has been relatively better this season due to winning back the premiership and a good champions league run). but look at any man utd home game and the stadium begins to clear with 10 mins to go and is nearly half empty at the final whistle. mostly because the plastic supporters just couldn't abide cueing on the way out!!!!!

PS - was that game you were at (v sheff wed) the one when man utd practically secured their first top flight championship after 27 odd years with 2 late, late steve bruce (?) goals???? if so i am sure it was a cracking atmosphere but more due to the game than anything else!

gustavo

09/05/2007, 3:26 PM

so by that token would an irish domestic game with an attendance of 4,000 have about one twelfth the atmosphere???? :confused:
the fact is that the bigger the stadium the more likely it is to have a 'diluted' atmosphere. smaller compact grounds are much better for an atmosphere. i have been to old trafford in the early 90's and again quite recently and i have to say when it was smaller (albeit 45 or 50 thousand capacity) it was a far better place from an atmosphere standpoint.

from talking to regular attending man utd fans they reckon that the atmosphere in old trafford has been pure sh1te for a good few years (although it has been relatively better this season due to winning back the premiership and a good champions league run). but look at any man utd home game and the stadium begins to clear with 10 mins to go and is nearly half empty at the final whistle. mostly because the plastic supporters just couldn't abide cueing on the way out!!!!!

PS - was that game you were at (v sheff wed) the one when man utd practically secured their first top flight championship after 27 odd years with 2 late, late steve bruce (?) goals???? if so i a sure it was a cracking atmosphere but more due to the game than anything else!
So he really was there :)