Irish Sunderland fan here. Debate very interesting

[irishboy99]

Very few people will castigate you for having an interest or passion for a foreign club in addition (though a few will) but most of us just want people to take an interest in the domestic Irish game and with their added investment (in all senses) to push the game forward here. People could then enjoy a product of a high standard here without having to travel abroad to do so. I often go to St. Annes park to watch amateur soccer and was involved for a few years as a secretary so I dont feel that I owe local soccer all that much to be honest. If Dundalk were playing in a big game then I have on occasion gone to watch them but I have limited resources and I want to see Sunderland at least once a season. I see where you are coming from but rather than people castigating the stay aways who may also be LOI fana you should focus your attention on the LOI clubs and suggest to them ways to allow people to come for example free for 1st visit

[irishboy99]

I'm sure as a Sunderland "supporter" since 1981 you remember Roker Park Irishboy. ....Let me put it to you this way Irishboy, when Sunderland were relegated, did you say "sod this lower division football lark, I'm following Liverpool from now on"?
I was in Roker Park but me following sunderland had nothing to do with facilities. It was circumstance. I supported them when they were relegated to div 3(now league 1) in 1987 by a tony cascarino goal for Gillingham.

[skitz3]

where I grew up in Stillorgan. I was always interested in soccer and the GAA and my first LOI game was Shamrock rvs vs Dundalk. But none of my friends were interested in LOI.

Popularity contest was it? It's not fashionable to support a LOI team so i won't?

[irishboy99]

Popularity contest was it? It's not fashionable to support a LOI team so i won't. When you are 8 it usually is. Was it ever thus?

[pete]

What is new is the direct appeal of British clubs aggressively marketing in Ireland, and the hordes leaving this island every weekend to support British teams. It's not about patriotism or xenophobia or insulting Sunderland or other English fans, as some would like to portray it.

What's special about the Sunderland case is that Quinn also likes to portray himself as a supporter of the domestic game.

I think this is what makes the Sunderland situation so different. They seem to be targeted at Irish people in the same way UK football sold to Asian countries. They will support whatever team is winning that year. Its no surprise Chelsea have large Chinese support. Who did the new Sunderland supporters follow before & who will they move to when the Sunderland ride is over?

Fair dues for irishboy99 posting & trying to defend his position. If I was to actually choose who to support free from geographic restrictions I would however choose a team that might actually win something. Why choose a team that will never win anything & stuck in what I would assume not the most picturesque region in England?

:confused:

[kdjaC]

I was in Roker Park but me following sunderland had nothing to do with facilities. It was circumstance. I supported them when they were relegated to div 3(now league 1) in 1987 by a tony cascarino goal for Gillingham.

Why are you:

A) Posting on an Eircom League message board?

B) Proving your allegiance to Sundireland as if it will mean something to the posters here?

C) Posting on an Eircom league messageboard?

I think your trolling and not doing a very good job at it (your meant to leave the topic stew for a day or 2 then come back to it).

The people most foot.ie users hate are the "barstoolers" those who watch football on tv and mainly english PL football with the view that its the best thing ever (che vs liv both sides hoofing it in a CL semi final is blasphemous to good football). They completley disregard Irish football (http://www.stpatsfc.com/watch_video.php?id=56) like the mate who says movie sucks without seeing it and thats god damn annoying in itself.

I dont want these people to go to EL games and i am glad they dont, they are clueless and will believe whatever andy gray tells them to believe. Tbh i dont ever think anyone on foot.ie will convert someone to go to an EL game when i read most of the above posts. From condescending to downright elitism but the point remains why are you posting an EL message board about Sundireland?


kdjac

[skitz3]

When you are 8 it usually is. Was it ever thus?

I supported a LOI team despite not knowing another person who did at the time because even as a 10 year the concept of supporting a team in another country was so outragously ridiculous,it wasn't even funny.

[irishboy99]

Why are you:

A) Posting on an Eircom League message board?

B) Proving your allegiance to Sundireland as if it will mean something to the posters here?

C) Posting on an Eircom league messageboard?

I think your trolling and not doing a very good job at it (your meant to leave the topic stew for a day or 2 then come back to it).

The people most foot.ie users hate are the "barstoolers" those who watch football on tv and mainly english PL football with the view that its the best thing ever (che vs liv both sides hoofing it in a CL semi final is blasphemous to good football). They completley disregard Irish football (http://www.stpatsfc.com/watch_video.php?id=56) like the mate who says movie sucks without seeing it and thats god damn annoying in itself.

I dont want these people to go to EL games and i am glad they dont, they are clueless and will believe whatever andy gray tells them to believe. Tbh i dont ever think anyone on foot.ie will convert someone to go to an EL game when i read most of the above posts. From condescending to downright elitism but the point remains why are you posting an EL message board about Sundireland?


kdjac

Read above why I am writing on the board. You obviously very quickly read thru the post. I am not proving my allegiance. The original post was on a sunderland website(see previous). As for stewing on it for a day or so I wanted to get my point across. Debate, argue. I dont need a few days to do this. BTW I am flying out tomorrow so I cant logon tomorrow. If people believe andy gray then far be for me to say if they are right or wrong.

[Soper]

Football is not a Product. If ypeople are so interested in products, then they should go down to Tesco and buy Toilet Duck or tampons or something.

[irishboy99]

even as a 10 year the concept of supporting a team in another country was so outragously ridiculous,it wasn't even funny. You must never had BBC, ITV or a dad/uncle/brother/son who supported a team other than a LOI team. You were lucky. Also you assume that all PL supporters are dim. Actually many have played for Ireland at all levels. Your argument goes to those bar stoolers but why kill yourself over them. I dont.

[Philly]

I think that your arguments are lost on my generation of supporter but if you feel that you can influence the next generation I would feel that has some merit but the clubs need to go to the schools and the community in a much bigger way and in a much wider radius, offer free tickets, invite inward investment for a share of the club, run it with real business professionals, find a way to offer good contracts to players who want to go to England (a bit like Leinster in the Rugby). My generation is lost. The bug bit for me when I watched a game in a big stadium(anfield) watching very passionate supporters(sunderland) with great facilities.
The next generation are there for the taking but alot has to change. As for being a consumer then if it means paying for my ticket, my flight, my B and B then I am a consumer but I regard myself as a supporter as well and if you are a better supporter than me then fair play to you

On grounds. My brother plays for Kildare GAA and Moorefield. I travel to some of the most pathetic grounds on the planets to see him. Health and safety disasters. Think about the toilets in Tolka Park - now imagine you are sitting in it watching a match. Not many GAA grounds would get a UEFA License, but thousands at times flock to them. Would you refuse to see Sunderland is they were playing away to a non-League ground?

Actually, what constitutes good facilities? Some of the Dublin grounds are grand.

Now, don't get me started on the consumer thing. You consume what is essentially a media product for more Irish Sunderland "fans". The media feed you the stories about what Roy said today, and Sky throw the match on. You travel to the odd game. Cut the media out of the equation though. You wouldn't have a clue what's going on. You wouldn't be able to see many matches at all. That's what makes your "supporting" of Sunderland a media product. A product which the Irish media and Sunderland has profited from a lot, as have Man Utd etc.

So what makes you a supporter?
Well:
-You have actual links to your club, you have an affinity eg. your local club
-You don't miss a game unless there is no chance
-You don't rely on media to support your team
-You actually matter to the club. You are important to it. Not a number in the business plan.
-If the team loses or is getting trashed you can't chage the channel.

I don't choose to support Ireland. I don't choose to support KCFC. It's football, it's your local club. It's not a choice. You can say there isn't one that close to you, but Sunderland is a damn shot further. You are a bandwagon jumper - it doesn't matter if you jumped on the bandwagon in the 80, 90 etc.

I show plenty of interest in the Premiership but at the end of the day home is were the heart is. It's people like you and the thousands of others that shun domestic soccer for British ball that are not soccer supporters. You are media consumers there is no other way about it.

[irishboy99]

You consume what is essentially a media product for more Irish Sunderland "fans". The media feed you the stories about what Roy said today, and Sky throw the match on. You travel to the odd game. Cut the media out of the equation though. You wouldn't have a clue what's going on. You wouldn't be able to see many matches at all. That's what makes your "supporting" of Sunderland a media product. A product which the Irish media and Sunderland has profited from a lot, as have Man Utd etc.

So what makes you a supporter?
Well:
-You have actual links to your club, you have an affinity eg. your local club
-You don't miss a game unless there is no chance
-You don't rely on media to support your team
-You actually matter to the club. You are important to it. Not a number in the business plan.
-If the team loses or is getting trashed you can't chage the channel.
. Your post annoys me v.much. I WAS A FAN before 2006! Read the previous post please. Ok I am calm. Your arguments for being a real fan are your view. They are not the 4 commitments.

[Philly]

And read my post again:
"it doesn't matter if you jumped on the bandwagon in the 80, 90 etc."

[SligoBrewer]

I don't choose to support Ireland. I don't choose to support KCFC. It's football, it's your local club. It's not a choice. You can say there isn't one that close to you, but Sunderland is a damn shot further. You are a bandwagon jumper - it doesn't matter if you jumped on the bandwagon in the 80, 90 etc.



Your post annoys me v.much. I WAS A FAN before 2006! Read the previous post please. Ok I am calm. Your arguments for being a real fan are your view. They are not the 4 commitments.

read the bold irish boy

[Philly]

Don't mean to be acting holier than thou by the way.

I don't think anybody would expect you to quit the Sunderland thing either.

I would encourage you to make the trip down to a match or two though, in the next few weeks. Perhaps it would make you realise this is something worth giving your support to. What's the worst that could happen?

[ashbournebohs]

I think that your arguments are lost on my generation of supporter but if you feel that you can influence the next generation I would feel that has some merit but the clubs need to go to the schools and the community in a much bigger way and in a much wider radius, offer free tickets, invite inward investment for a share of the club, run it with real business professionals, find a way to offer good contracts to players who want to go to England (a bit like Leinster in the Rugby). My generation is lost. The bug bit for me when I watched a game in a big stadium(anfield) watching very passionate supporters(sunderland) with great facilities.
The next generation are there for the taking but alot has to change. As for being a consumer then if it means paying for my ticket, my flight, my B and B then I am a consumer but I regard myself as a supporter as well and if you are a better supporter than me then fair play to you


Yes i am and i will tell you why with two words. AWAY GAMES. The highlight of you and your ilk is to get to the mecca that is the stadium of light or wherever anfield or old trafford like sheep.Well in my book a supporter supports their team wherever they play home league away league home europe away europe small cup games down the country preseason friendlies in the arsehole of nowhere but that is what is generally classed as supportin a team .Big difference to going "cross the water couple of times like the japanese tourists with cameras and as much merchadise as the exchange rate will allow.".Im sure your happy enough and thats your right but dont forget we are laughing at you the local sunderland supporters are laughing at you and micheal o leary is laughing at you..Oh and in case your wondering there isnt a shred of bitterness in this and do you know why i will be up in derry tomorrow night supporting my local team

[SkStu]

Your arguments for being a real fan are your view. They are not the 4 commitments.

the thing is they are not just "his view". Ask any supporter in the world why they follow the team they do and the answer will be pretty similar to that. In fact it can and should be boiled down to the following.

I love the Game.
The club is Local. and/or
There is a History between the club and me (my family).

Ireland is so warped when it comes to football. We proclaim we love the game but the majority of the barstoolers are JUST TOO EFFIN LAZY to go to a game. Everything else is just an excuse. If you love the game and go to see a live match then you will be hooked by the experience, irrespective of facilities, abilities etc. Thats what happened with me. 7/8years back, Tuesday night, league cup game, UCD v Bohs, in Belfield ffs and i have been Bohs ever since. Hooked. English football on the telly just cant compete anymore.

[The Man Himself]

sunderland are only a flash in the pan cos keano is in charge,
in a few years time when fergie hangs up his hair dryer keano will go to man u and sunderland will be forgotten about.

as for quinn, hes only the danial o donnell of sunderland flashing his cash around paying fans taxis just to make himself look good,
the mans more intrested in the horses then wonderland afc.

it will all fall flat on its face.

[irishboy99]

I don't think anybody would expect you to quit the Sunderland thing either.

I would encourage you to make the trip down to a match or two though, in the next few weeks. Perhaps it would make you realise this is something worth giving your support to. What's the worst that could happen? Well I will always go and support the mackems. I have watched Dundalk on occasion but is really necessary.

[irishboy99]

[/B]


Yes i am and i will tell you why with two words. AWAY GAMES. Well in my book a supporter supports their team wherever they play home league away league home europe away europe small cup games down the country preseason friendlies in the arsehole of nowhere but that is what is generally classed as supportin a team I have no argument you are a great supporter. Fair play to you. However those going to clubs in England dont want to compete with you but your club is not THEIR club. If you support your club in that manner then magnificent. I cant do that. However I am not in a whose the best supporter debate. The issues go beyond that. I am trying to put my point across without going down blind alleys. I am tired now. Will try to come back later if there is interest.

[monkey magic]

first of all, can i just say to irishboy, fair play for coming on and debating, NOBODY should have a problem with him coming on to air his point of view.

having said that, your point of view will never hold merit on this forum, because here, for the most part people understand the fundamentals of football support as it is known the world round. for the real football supporter its not a choice, a decision based on the passion you saw one night in anfield, its a relationship, a sense of identity with your locality and your club. the passion you speak of from the Sunderland supporters you saw that night can be found in any LOI ground on any given weekend, maybe not in the same numbers, but its there. that kind of passion can only come through having a vested interest in the fortunes of your club, your home town team. the good times the bad, the few pound you threw into the half time draw going to support the running of the club. what you did is latch onto that and say "i want to be like those guys" you consumed it if you will, and thus by default you can never really feel the same kind of passion that they do about what is their club.

the baffling thing about you from my perspective is that your from Dublin. you actually had a CHOICE of five clubs, seven if you count drogheda and bray, your argument about not feeling any connection to these clubs is again baffling because any one of those clubs are a few minutes drive away, in my opinion thats connection enough, certainly more of a connection than seeing a club play once and then deciding to support them. i come from Longford, and it is indeed a small provincial backwater. the year i was born longford town fc were admitted to the league of Ireland, despite having existed for sixty years at the time. there was/could only ever be one club for me. thats not coincidence, thats not faith, thats just football. i can just remember a time when flancare park (mullogher as it was then) consisted of what can only be described as a cowshed in one corner and a "terrace":p along the other side. we were probably the worst team in Ireland and ill freely admit that i rarely got to a game, relying on my uncle to bring me when he could. to this day i miss as many games as i catch with work commitments, but i still cant shake off that attraction to my club, the sense of identity, the familliar faces, the good times had and the bad to come.

one little thing to point out to you. the cost of one trip to sunderland would probably see you into any LOI ground for a couple of months, i urge you, before you write us off as a bunch of bitter lunatics, to take in a few consecutive games, and then come back to this forum and tell us were wrong, if you have kids bring them along, and watch them get hooked, ive started to bring my lil bro(annoying as he is) to the odd match, and already ive seen a marked change in his attitude to the game of football. where once his saturdays consisted of slobbing on the couch watching arsenal play and changing the channel when it looked like they were gonna loose, now he's talking a real interest in the art of actually supporting a club. last week he bought a ps3 and had invited his mates over to have a go, but when he found out i was going to the Waterford game, he phoned and cancelled. i was shocked, but all he could talk about was how a win would take us off the bottom, i didnt even think he knew what position we were in!

all im saying is to judge to game in ireland on one game a few years ago is daft, its not a restaurant, just give it a try

[pete]

Good quote from barstooler recently...


I really wish I had gotten over to see United this season...

:rolleyes:

[TommyT]

This MB really has hit the skids when an interesting, thought provoking poster is accused of trolling.

That said I completely disagree with him.
The point about a lack of family members/mates to share the passion with is a fair one and is a problem for the league but how many of irishboy99's friends and family support Sunderland ? Frequently fans of English clubs plough a lonley enough furrow among their circles if they're the only fan of their particular club.

Also the lack of media exposure was a problem but probably isn't as much anymore, it's now pretty easy to follow your teams fortunes if your missing matches, how often were Sunderland in the Irish papers or on TV (Irish or English) in the eighties ?

As for not your local team Stillorgan is a couple of miles from Milltown, Rovers have and always will have more support in DLR than UCD or indeed Bray. I'd guess most Sunderland season ticket holders are from further away from Roker/ The SoL than you grew up from Milltown, and they'd be known for being a strongly local club.

You mention the passion of Sunderland fans, it's true of all the clubs in the north east. I think you'd find also that a major part of their pride in their clubs comes from regionalism and they'd be very proud of the fact that fans of other clubs (in particular Manchester United) are thin on the ground up there. They'd look down on the fact that there are so many United fans in areas like the midlands/London and parts of Yorkshire and would look down on those fans.

[dcfcsteve]

So tell me who for example in Dublin in the huge number of suburbs who should they be supporting. I can think of vast areas of Dublin where there is no 'local' LOI team.

I can think of vast swathes of London with no team. I live in one, for example ! My nearest senior club is either Chelsea/Fulham, a few miles away on the other side of the river (a big identity barrier in london) or the likes of charlton or Palace who are miles away geographically and again identity wise. But you may not grasp the fact that for most people who follow a team, havign an ability to idenitfy with them is key...

I can think of vast swathes of other cities in Europe which have football teams less local to them than in Dublin. So how the hell is that any sort of genuine reason/excuse ? It isn't - you're just grasping at straws to justify the fact you picked an English team at random, and now a chunk of your life revolves around that random childish decision. That is what is so ridiculous about people in Ireland who support an English team - it's nigh on a lottery of time, personnel or kit colour, and as a result that team can never actually mean that much to them, no matter how much they doth protest to the countrary...

[TheOwl]

So many dismissive, bitter, petty, holier than thou Eircom League fans on this thread and it makes me sick. If people have this kind of attitude why would irishboy even bother going to an Eircom League game?

I always get a feeling that if the Eircom League did ever get popular, the same people would complain about the barstoolers being “band-wagon” jumpers and pining for the days when it was “their league.”

It is like people who love these new bands, tell all their mates “buy the album, buy the album” and then get all bitter and resentful when the band becomes successful.

All this consume nonsense is just b*ll**** too - you don’t choose football clubs, they choose you, and when you fall in love with one - rational goes out the window.

Attending games is great but it is not the end all either - I’ve lived away from Dublin for a year and a half and a Shels defeat still hurts the same.

I’m also a Sheffield Wednesday fan, a club who size and success wise would be close to Sunderland, and I do care deeply out them too and I’ll never apologies for it.

Too many people are trying to over analysis things here, I bet irishboy hurts when Sunderland lose and is over the moon when they win - just like all you are whenever your team plays.

There are many, many things wrong with the Irish game, it is not an attractive product, to be honest, non-Shels games hold very little interest for me, especially now that we are not in the top league, why would I care less about a Bohs v Cork match?

Forget about your own club for a minute because your emotionally attached to them - but how interested would you be in watching Sligo v Bray; Waterford v Rovers; Longford v Derry? When you’re not emotionally invested - they don’t seem all that attractive do they?

So what do we do to change this? We just have to keep improving the standard, and the facilities, and make it as attractive as possible for people to come to games, then when they see that last minute winner, after not having had to stand in the cold for ninety minutes, with maybe a few beers and some good food in their bellies, they might say to themselves - “hey this is alight - I could go do this again”

People need to stop bitching and moaning as to why Irish people don’t attend Eircom League games and why Irish businessmen don’t invest. They need to start asking why they don’t instead. Because if we don’t identify the problems then we will never come up with a solution, and in 30 years time we will be having the same argument all over again.

[CavanBohs]

I am not going to go into a big angry rant like I normally do with barstoolers as I have gone past the point of caring. I used to be the same as you irishbhoy when I was younger and knew no better. Children are easily swayed by tv and hype and it was the thing to do when you were young. But I was brought to a Bohs-Monaghan pre-season friendly by a mate and was hooked straight away as I felt I could be part of the club.

I look back now and wish I had been brought to a game before and can't believe I considered myself a big Liverpool and Celtic fan because I seen them the odd time on TV. I was not a Liverpool or Celtic fan but an interested observer, a follower. I never felt a connection with either team and one very important thing, I never felt a connection to any other Liverpool or Celtic "fan" I ever met. I never meant anything to either club, unlike at Bohs where my support matters very much so.

As for what a proper fan is, from the informaion you have given here, you are not what I consider a fan, you are a follower, a viewer, but not a fan. A fan is a support and gives his club his support, in many ways; going to games (very important), giving a helping hand a the club, something that the club/players can see and allow the club in some way progress/improve/benefit from. Sitting in a pub or at home with the tv on is not something that is likely to benefit "your" club. 1 fan in the stand would inspire a player more than thousands of "fans" infront of a tv. Being a fan is not just a one day or 90mins commitment a week but an ongoing thing, you are a fan not just when your team is playing. You live for your team, you go through pain and joy for days after a game. The list could go on but no one will ever be able to explain fully what it's like to be a real fan, you just have to experience it.

If Bohs went bust tomorrow, it would be something I would never get over, it would be one of the worst things that couls ever happen as it is such a big part of my life, as it is for all football fans. If Sunderland went bust tomorrow, it would be like your favourite TV programme being cancelled, nothing more. You would be dissapointed but move on. There is more TV programmes you could watch instead, it is just 90mins of your TV viewing every week, if even.

But to be honest, I feel sorry for you that you will never get to experience what it is like to be a football fan, so enjoy following Sunderland but expect to be laughed at if you visit Dalymount for your vip trip to see the filming of your favourite TV programme.;)

[dcfcsteve]

So many dismissive, bitter, petty, holier than thou Eircom League fans on this thread and it makes me sick. If people have this kind of attitude why would irishboy even bother going to an Eircom League game?

I always get a feeling that if the Eircom League did ever get popular, the same people would complain about the barstoolers being “band-wagon” jumpers and pining for the days when it was “their league.”

It is like people who love these new bands, tell all their mates “buy the album, buy the album” and then get all bitter and resentful when the band becomes successful.

All this consume nonsense is just b*ll**** too - you don’t choose football clubs, they choose you, and when you fall in love with one - rational goes out the window.

Attending games is great but it is not the end all either - I’ve lived away from Dublin for a year and a half and a Shels defeat still hurts the same.

I’m also a Sheffield Wednesday fan, a club who size and success wise would be close to Sunderland, and I do care deeply out them too and I’ll never apologies for it.

Too many people are trying to over analysis things here, I bet irishboy hurts when Sunderland lose and is over the moon when they win - just like all you are whenever your team plays.

There are many, many things wrong with the Irish game, it is not an attractive product, to be honest, non-Shels games hold very little interest for me, especially now that we are not in the top league, why would I care less about a Bohs v Cork match?

Forget about your own club for a minute because your emotionally attached to them - but how interested would you be in watching Sligo v Bray; Waterford v Rovers; Longford v Derry? When you’re not emotionally invested - they don’t seem all that attractive do they?

So what do we do to change this? We just have to keep improving the standard, and the facilities, and make it as attractive as possible for people to come to games, then when they see that last minute winner, after not having had to stand in the cold for ninety minutes, with maybe a few beers and some good food in their bellies, they might say to themselves - “hey this is alight - I could go do this again”

People need to stop bitching and moaning as to why Irish people don’t attend Eircom League games and why Irish businessmen don’t invest. They need to start asking why they don’t instead. Because if we don’t identify the problems then we will never come up with a solution, and in 30 years time we will be having the same argument all over again.


And in return for such honesty, those who don't support the EL need to likewise be honest and stop grasping for pathetic excuses to explain why they follow English or Scottish teams.

Exhibit A being the whole 'But there was no club near me in Dublin' - as if they were ever poised to support the domestic game, only to be cruelly foiled by geography and then forced to support a team 300 times further away than their nearest Irish side instead.... :o

And they also need to stop dismissing a game they know nothing about, involving teams they never see, and trotting out a view of the standard of the domestic game that is at-best a decade out of date.

It cuts both ways Owl.....

[skitz3]

You must never had BBC, ITV or a dad/uncle/brother/son who supported a team other than a LOI team.

Of course i had BBC and ITV,i even had Sky Sports growing up and also my father was and still is a fan of English football but the concept of supporting a team from another country that i could never go see in the flesh week in,week out was so far fetched that i refused to let my friends or family dictate who i supported.

[craig7042]

Slightly off topic here, What annoys me about Sunderland is hearing their results on the radio and not hearing the other Championship scores. Or when Setanta show a EPL game @ 3.00, Sunderland's score pops up in the corner and no other Championship score. I find it embarrassing, Everyone in Ireland is all of a sudden a Sunderland supporter, joke. Its like every Irish person is suppose to support Celtic, well, I do not.

I think the interest in Sland is more about football than the Celtic interest. With all the ex-Irish boys involved going back a number of years it creates interest naturally. The Celtic thing annoys me. Its as though we arent allowed support English clubs but Celtic are okay even though they're clearly Scottish (with their English version of "Soldiers are we"). I lived in Glasgow and supported them at that time and still do, but I think the connection with Ireland is a bit precarious. The Sland connection is better I think.

[stampp]

It's interesting to see this rumbling on - on another thread now. To the poster that asked 'why are you on here', I say count the number of posts on the thread (including your own) - it obviously touches a raw spot.

It's funny that a similar argument is simmering away now on the Sunderland Message Board, where self-proclaimed 'uber' fans often have a go at the ' johnny-come-lately's ' who have only started going to the SSOL since we started to have some success under Roy and Niall. But what do they want? New fans to be banned? You have to show ticket stubs from the '73 final to be allowed admission? It's silly.

What about Man Utd? Coach loads of 'Utd' supporters head up from the South of England carrying southern 'fans' who have adopted Utd. as their team - often just because it is a 'big' club - this isn't just an English/Irish issue. Some fans are fans through birth, others through chance, some through fashion. But I don't see any point railing against it - it's an open market - that's the way the world is.

[Calcio Jack]

Slightly off topic here, What annoys me about Sunderland is hearing their results on the radio and not hearing the other Championship scores. Or when Setanta show a EPL game @ 3.00, Sunderland's score pops up in the corner and no other Championship score. I find it embarrassing, Everyone in Ireland is all of a sudden a Sunderland supporter, joke. Its like every Irish person is suppose to support Celtic, well, I do not.

The reason their result/updates is only shown is becasuse half the country loves Roy Keane and the other half hates him... thus it makes sense for Setanta to show Sunderland results updates etc because they know everyone in the country has an interest.. if he had chosen to bring his brilliance to another club then that clubs results would be featured... love him or hate the man still occupies a huge fascination for almost every follower of soccer in this country.

[GavinZac]

I often go to St. Annes park to watch amateur soccer and was involved for a few years as a secretary so I dont feel that I owe local soccer all that much to be honest. If Dundalk were playing in a big game then I have on occasion gone to watch them but I have limited resources and I want to see Sunderland at least once a season. I see where you are coming from but rather than people castigating the stay aways who may also be LOI fana you should focus your attention on the LOI clubs and suggest to them ways to allow people to come for example free for 1st visit

In fairness you're telling us nothing we havent heard a hundred times, the FAI are doing their best to address the very things you have pointed out. For instance, my own club at cork city:

- Has fantastic facilities, and will hopefully by the end of the year be the first ever all-seated, all-covered soccer ground in ireland.
- Has a good footballing team. We may have lost players of the calibre of shane long, kevin doyle, geoge o'callaghan, danny murpphy and alan bennett to premier division/championship teams in britain, (we had players of that calibre, we still do, and people will still claim we're "****") but we still have good players, we still play attractive football, and soon enough we'll have 2 irish internationals in the centre of our midfield.
- Has incentives to start going. The loyalty card that every club now has is perfect. You have a set goal of a number of games you could go to - i think its 10. Go to 10 games in the whole season, and you can get thousands of euros as a reward.
- Puts in "face time" with the media/public. Not a day goes by without damien richardson or one of the players being pictured at some public interest area. Dan Murray kisses more babies than a politician.
- We attract big crowds - on the right occasion. Thats the clincher. People have no problem coming to the cross for a game of football. the majority of people in cork these days do wish to see city do well. They just won't bother their arses going even every few weeks to see a game. Its much, much easier just to watch the premiership and swap andy gray's soundbites with your friends.

[OneRedArmy]

No offence but "trying to see your team once a year" doesn't really make you a supporter, in the same way someone you see very rarely is more likely to be an acquaintance rather than a friend.

Football is made to be watched live.

[fitzknows]

I often go to St. Annes park to watch amateur soccer and was involved for a few years as a secretary so I dont feel that I owe local soccer all that much to be honest. If Dundalk were playing in a big game then I have on occasion gone to watch them but I have limited resources and I want to see Sunderland at least once a season. I see where you are coming from but rather than people castigating the stay aways who may also be LOI fana you should focus your attention on the LOI clubs and suggest to them ways to allow people to come for example free for 1st visit

Your argument ends for me there I'm afraid. You can buy a season ticket for any LoI club for about 200/300 Euro. It's going to cost you more than that to go to Sunderland this weekend. Why should Irish clubs that work hard to stay in existence give you free entry to a game. Irish clubs give youngsters the opportunity to learn the game without having to go abroad at a ridiculously early age (i.e. Stephen Ward). If more Irish people attended games then the Irish clubs could compete financially with English clubs in the Championship and offer players like Stephen Ward the opportunity to stay in Ireland longer and stake a claim for inclusion in the International side but as long as Irish football lovers pour their money into clubs from a foreign country while ignoring their local sides then it is always going to be a difficult task for Irish clubs. You strike me as a decent person but to expect excellent facilities and free entry at a LoI ground smacks of arrogance. Did Sunderland give you free entry when you first went to see them?

[bawn79]

Im from Tipperary and have played local Junior soccer since I was 12 years old. We have no LOI and no team that I could really identify with.
I have a soft-spot for Derry City and have gone to watch them on a good few occassions but I know because Im not from Derry I can never real fan because it isnt in my blood/family.
However Im a big Ireland fan and go to all the home games.
However I think there is a formula to look at.


More People go to LOI= More Money for LOI Clubs= Better Grounds/Facilities= More People go to LOI= Better Grounds/Players= More Money for LOI Clubs= Better Youth Development/ Players= Better Options for young irish players= More and better players for the Irish National Team


Its a circle that will end up with better players for the National Team and also give an option to young irish lads to stay at home and pursue a career in football here which socially is also very important.
It will provide local heros for young people growing up and will entice more young people to play the game/ stay out of trouble.
It just needs enough people to go now to tip the balance and get this cycle going.
If Irish clubs are successful then Irish Coaches control the destiny of other Irish players rather than been lumped into massive youth systems in the UK.

[MojoPin]

lads i think everyone is bein very harsh on the original poster. hes a sunderland fan so what?????? just cause he doesnt follow a loi club is he a lesser person than us.... answer is no!!!!! simple like

[BohsPartisan]

If Dundalk were playing in a big game then I have on occasion gone to watch them but I have limited resources and I want to see Sunderland at least once a season.

I remember a very similar thread on the old EL forum about nine or ten years ago. The main difference being that your position was being advocated by none other than myself. My arguement was that I grew up in Navan so I "didn't have a local team" and had always "supported" Everton. Thing was the hostility of some of the diehards on that forum at the time only served galvanise that "support". It was at a time when for the first time I had the money to go to a few Everton games a season. I went and I loved the "being there" feeling. I soon realised I couldn't afford to "feed my habit" and get my fix by relying on trips accross the water so started going to EL games. Bohs featured more often than anyone else as I had a college friend who's a Bohs fan (there were some other factors which meant I already had was leaning in the direction of Bohs which I have mentioned here before). Pretty soon I got hooked by the atmosphere, the real live being there feeling. I began to consider myself a Bohs fan and by the end of my first season supporting Bohs they were more important to me than Everton. I also realised that I could get a whole season of Bohs for the price of two trips to Goodison. Nowadays I'm a member of the club. Its an obsession. I still follow Everton and go to the odd game but its a different kind of following. Bohs is part of me now and I am part of Bohs. What happens to Bohs directly reflects on my moods and my life. Everton is an interest, a hobby. Bohs is my religion.

[CharlesThompson]

There’s been a lot posted on here and it seems that nobody is budging on there stand point. And to be honest, from what has ben said I wouldn’t budge whether I was Irishboy or any of the eL supporters considering the posts.

Here’s my tuppence worth though. I like you Irishboy, saw my first match in England in the early 80’s and funnily enough it involved Sunderland although I was going to see Manchester United. I would imagine I’m also about the same age as you (early – mid 30’s?).

I spent years arguing your arguments right up until about 7-8 years ago. I didn’t (and still don’t) live ‘near’ to an eL club but was taken on occasion to Bohs matches as my Dad’s from Cabra. I would have always looked out for their results. I was even ‘emotional’ when United won the Champions League in ’99. I travelled as much as I could to see them play at Old Trafford and even got an away leg of a Champions League match against Bayern into the bargain. But it is expensive to follow ‘your club’ in this fashion.

So bearing all of this in mind I don’t think you and I are at all dissimilar.

Thing is this, you probably need a reason to go to watch eL football. For me there were two reasons. Firstly I wanted to give up smoking so needed something other than going to the pub on a Friday night to do and also I was beginning to question myself as a football fan. Why, if I purport to being such a great football fan (as everyone I knew would be of the opinion), was I not going to watch live football at any chance I could get? There was no answer to this except that I wasn’t as great a football fan as I thought I was or as others thought I was.

Football is a participation sport. Whether you play it or support it. I played for years but rarely went to support. When I stopped playing, I only looked at it on the TV so therefore I was not participating.

Deciding to go to watch eL on your own (which is basically what I did) requires a leap of faith and an open mind. 7/8 years later I could not bear the thought of missing Bohs playing. I enjoy meeting with all of the friends I’ve made down the years at Dalymount whether home or away. The whole social aspect of my support for Bohs is as much a part of it as is going to watch the football.

As I’ve said, you need some sort of justification to go and watch and eL game. If you can’t find that then pity for you. If you can I guarantee you, if you go and give it a chance, it will give you back more than you can imagine. And you can still hold onto your Sunderland.

BTW, I’m going to Milan on Wednesday to see United reach the final of the Champions League! :)

[Philly]

In fairness you're telling us nothing we havent heard a hundred times, the FAI are doing their best to address the very things you have pointed out. For instance, my own club at cork city:

- Has fantastic facilities, and will hopefully by the end of the year be the first ever all-seated, all-covered soccer ground in ireland.
- Has a good footballing team. We may have lost players of the calibre of shane long, kevin doyle, geoge o'callaghan, danny murpphy and alan bennett to premier division/championship teams in britain, (we had players of that calibre, we still do, and people will still claim we're "****") but we still have good players, we still play attractive football, and soon enough we'll have 2 irish internationals in the centre of our midfield.
- Has incentives to start going. The loyalty card that every club now has is perfect. You have a set goal of a number of games you could go to - i think its 10. Go to 10 games in the whole season, and you can get thousands of euros as a reward.
- Puts in "face time" with the media/public. Not a day goes by without damien richardson or one of the players being pictured at some public interest area. Dan Murray kisses more babies than a politician.
- We attract big crowds - on the right occasion. Thats the clincher. People have no problem coming to the cross for a game of football. the majority of people in cork these days do wish to see city do well. They just won't bother their arses going even every few weeks to see a game. Its much, much easier just to watch the premiership and swap andy gray's soundbites with your friends.

Cork fans. Any chance to brag and they grab it like a million quid.

[GavinZac]

Cork fans. Any chance to brag and they grab it like a million quid.

I'm giving my experience as an eircom league fan. predominantly, that is at turners cross. if you want to be "parochial" enough to put someone down for recounting how their local EL "product" has improved vastly over the last few years, so be it, but you'd wonder what exactly your ambitions are.

[Philly]

Ouch. Somebody's in a mood today! Joke, boy, joke.....

If we are going to be all serious, then I agree, Cork are a club a lot of teams should strive to emulate. Good facilities, and good community ties, and a good team with a professional set-up.

[OneRedArmy]

Cork fans. Any chance to brag and they grab it like a million quid.Don't see a problem with that.

Us Derry fans did our fair share of it last year as we had something to be proud of.

We should all be bragging more, or marketing as they like to call it in fancy circles........

[NY Hoop]

I think that your arguments are lost on my generation of supporter but if you feel that you can influence the next generation I would feel that has some merit but the clubs need to go to the schools and the community in a much bigger way and in a much wider radius, offer free tickets, invite inward investment for a share of the club, run it with real business professionals, find a way to offer good contracts to players who want to go to England (a bit like Leinster in the Rugby). My generation is lost. The bug bit for me when I watched a game in a big stadium(anfield) watching very passionate supporters(sunderland) with great facilities.
The next generation are there for the taking but alot has to change. As for being a consumer then if it means paying for my ticket, my flight, my B and B then I am a consumer but I regard myself as a supporter as well and if you are a better supporter than me then fair play to you

Gee thanks for telling us how to market the game here. How condescending of you. At Rovers we have volunteers working non stop to run the club and attract fans.

You're from Stillorgan and you "support" sunderland. How pathetic. When you go abroad and someone asks where you're from and who you support do you not get embarrassed? If you're not from sunderland you cannot be a supporter.

You have some nerve complaining about the league here without seeing the ridiculous hypocrisy of spending hundreds on a daytrip to see a foreign club.

http://www.safc.com/news/?page_id=11819

KOH

[TheOwl]

There’s been a lot posted on here and it seems that nobody is budging on there stand point. And to be honest, from what has ben said I wouldn’t budge whether I was Irishboy or any of the eL supporters considering the posts.

Here’s my tuppence worth though. I like you Irishboy, saw my first match in England in the early 80’s and funnily enough it involved Sunderland although I was going to see Manchester United. I would imagine I’m also about the same age as you (early – mid 30’s?).

I spent years arguing your arguments right up until about 7-8 years ago. I didn’t (and still don’t) live ‘near’ to an eL club but was taken on occasion to Bohs matches as my Dad’s from Cabra. I would have always looked out for their results and I was even ‘emotional’ when they won the Champions League in ’99. I travelled as much as I could to see them play at Old Trafford and even got an away leg of a Champions League match against Bayern into the bargain. But it is expensive to follow ‘your club’ in this fashion.

So bearing all of this in mind I don’t think you and I are at all dissimilar.

Thing is this, you probably need a reason to go to watch eL football. For me there were two reasons. Firstly I wanted to give up smoking so needed something other than going to the pub on a Friday night to do and also I was beginning to question myself as a football fan. Why, if I purport to being such a great football fan (as everyone I knew would be of the opinion), was I not going to watch live football at any chance I could get? There was no answer to this except that I wasn’t as great a football fan as I thought I was or as others thought I was.

Football is a participation sport. Whether you play it or support it. I played for years but rarely went to support. When I stopped playing, I only looked at it on the TV so therefore I was not participating.

Deciding to go to watch eL on your own (which is basically what I did) requires a leap of faith and an open mind. 7/8 years later I could not bear the thought of missing Bohs playing. I enjoy meeting with all of the friends I’ve made down the years at Dalymount whether home or away. The whole social aspect of my support for Bohs is as much a part of it as is going to watch the football.

As I’ve said, you need some sort of justification to go and watch and eL game. If you can’t find that then pity for you. If you can I guarantee you, if you go and give it a chance, it will give you back more than you can imagine. And you can still hold onto your Sunderland.

BTW, I’m going to Milan on Wednesday to see United reach the final of the Champions League! :)

Now that is the sort of post that might get irishboy interested in the Eircom League - good lad Charles - and also Bohs Partisan who made similar points above. Reasoned points as to why the league holds a great appeal and not the "I'm a better fan than you and you are pathetic" rants most people have chosen to spew.

Yuck - just praised two Bohs fans - I feel so dirty!

[BohDiddley]

There’s been a lot posted on here and it seems that nobody is budging on there stand point. And to be honest, from what has ben said I wouldn’t budge whether I was Irishboy or any of the eL supporters considering the posts.

Here’s my tuppence worth though. I like you Irishboy, saw my first match in England in the early 80’s and funnily enough it involved Sunderland although I was going to see Manchester United. I would imagine I’m also about the same age as you (early – mid 30’s?).

I spent years arguing your arguments right up until about 7-8 years ago. I didn’t (and still don’t) live ‘near’ to an eL club but was taken on occasion to Bohs matches as my Dad’s from Cabra. I would have always looked out for their results. I was even ‘emotional’ when United won the Champions League in ’99. I travelled as much as I could to see them play at Old Trafford and even got an away leg of a Champions League match against Bayern into the bargain. But it is expensive to follow ‘your club’ in this fashion.

So bearing all of this in mind I don’t think you and I are at all dissimilar.

Thing is this, you probably need a reason to go to watch eL football. For me there were two reasons. Firstly I wanted to give up smoking so needed something other than going to the pub on a Friday night to do and also I was beginning to question myself as a football fan. Why, if I purport to being such a great football fan (as everyone I knew would be of the opinion), was I not going to watch live football at any chance I could get? There was no answer to this except that I wasn’t as great a football fan as I thought I was or as others thought I was.

Football is a participation sport. Whether you play it or support it. I played for years but rarely went to support. When I stopped playing, I only looked at it on the TV so therefore I was not participating.

Deciding to go to watch eL on your own (which is basically what I did) requires a leap of faith and an open mind. 7/8 years later I could not bear the thought of missing Bohs playing. I enjoy meeting with all of the friends I’ve made down the years at Dalymount whether home or away. The whole social aspect of my support for Bohs is as much a part of it as is going to watch the football.

As I’ve said, you need some sort of justification to go and watch and eL game. If you can’t find that then pity for you. If you can I guarantee you, if you go and give it a chance, it will give you back more than you can imagine. And you can still hold onto your Sunderland.

BTW, I’m going to Milan on Wednesday to see United reach the final of the Champions League! :)
Great post.
Still, I hope MakeBelieveBohs/Milan stuff 'em.

[padzer]

Sounds as if he hardly gave it a chance. Im an ex-barstooler, but after giving the ELoI a chance I find its well worth the few bob entry fee. Having gone to see the Dubs and gone to the internationals down the years ive always loved the buzz of matchday and with the ELoI u get it every other wkend.

How can he say the facilities are dirt, when his beloved just played Colchester last weekend in Layer Road which has a capacity of a whopping 6,340.

[paul_oshea]

Then I moved to a northside club for 1 year as a player. As for the Republic I last saw them in a friendly vs China at Landsdowne.

Irishboy, I was agreeing with an awful lot of what you were saying, particularly with regards to having no affiliation to an Irish club growing up, however after this I don't see any logic to your argument other than being a consumer, brainwashed by marketing and a false sense of belonging. I mean what makes you anyway a Sunderland NATIVE? Its like people in ireland who support liverpool saying how they hate "mancs", I mean they dont even have a clue why, other than watching tele or having gone to the odd match and heard that they aren' t supposed to like united fans. plain stupidity.

[Cymro]

I'm going to step into this debate about choosing a football club. And yes I say choosing one yourself because it doesn't just choose you.

That isn't the same as saying you should pick any team for any random reason, or that you should just support the biggest team with the best players.

But there are plenty of reasons for choosing a football club. It is not just down to where you live. Nothing can be as cut and blown dry as that.

Even among the Irish league I bet there are plenty of fans who watch say Bohemians but don't watch say Aer Lingus F.C. even though the latter's ground is closer (my irish geography isn't great, so excuse me if those two clubs are miles apart) :)

Take me for example. My local club would be Port Talbot, though I was actually brought up in Neath. However, my dad was a Swansea fan and his dad before him. I was brought up wearing Swansea shirts and watching John Toshack's side rise through the divisions. I have a history watching them and have been through the bad times such as nearly dropping out of the league a few years back and the Tony Petty shambles, and the recent good times with the new stadium and international football being brought here.

Does the fact that I'm from Port Talbot make me any less of a fan than the ones who actually come from the city if Swansea but only come out to watch us when we get a good cup draw or are doing well in the league? :rolleyes: Scrap that, does it make me less of a fan than the fans who come from Swansea full stop? I don't see how it does. If so what about those Bohemians fans who actually live closer to the ground of a lower league Irish side? And I bet there are a good few of those to be honest.

With regards the Irish fan from Sunderland who started this thread, for me he's got no less merit because he supports an English club. Assuming he's got actual reasons for supporting them and not because they were doing well at the time, which I think we probably agree on since Sunderland have never really been that big a club relatively speaking, why criticise him? he has his own reasons. It's not like he's against the Irish league, but just chooses to support a team outside of Ireland, maybe because of family history or some other ties there.

[paul_oshea]

With regards the Irish fan from Sunderland who started this thread, for me he's got no less merit because he supports an English club. Assuming he's got actual reasons for supporting them and not because they were doing well at the time, which I think we probably agree on since Sunderland have never really been that big a club relatively speaking, why criticise him? he has his own reasons. It's not like he's against the Irish league, but just chooses to support a team outside of Ireland, maybe because of family history or some other ties there.


Cymro, thats the most honest, fair and reasoned point you will ever seen in the EL forum, but when that same fan said he went to landsdowne to watch china ( unless of course he has just been unable to get tickets, which I very much doubt ) v Ireland and thats the only/last time he was there makes his argument completely non-sensical - to me at least :)

[michaelguineys]

I want to see Sunderland at least once a season. I see where you are coming

Once a season?
Jesus fair play to ya