Official Premiership Thread [Archive] - Page 7

DotTV

12/12/2006, 3:28 PM

Well firstly going over the last few seasons Galway haven't been inferior to Dundalk and going on this season there was only a few points between both teams so they are pretty close.
I think Galway being in the Premier will benefit the league because they are a very marketable club.Things are going right of the pitch and there is a massive potential audience to plug into(80,000 in the city and up to 200,000 in the surrounding areas).
Galway have systems in place to tap into this.Football has become a business and with people like Nick Leeson behind the scene Galway are in a good position to maximise the potential of having a big Eircom league club on the west coast.

cavan_fan

12/12/2006, 3:32 PM

I was just trying to get an answer as to how this particular (galway/dk) decision benefits the league as a whole... still stumped. :confused:

It doesnt benefit the league any more than Dundalk in reality. The whole thing does however make it look like the FAI are running 'a whole new league'. You can tell it's new becasue we didnt bother with old fashioned things like promotion relegation to choose the clubs.

If they had wanted to be radical they could have done the following.

Have a 10 team Premier League.

Pick the best ten locations in the country for a club (with some weighting to places that already have a club). (possibly 2*Dublin, Cork, Galway, Derry, Louth, Athlone, Limerick, Wexford, Donegal)

Install a centrally appointed General Manager to each club and give each of them 10% of all funding available for the next five years.

Contract all players Centrally and hire them out to the clubs.

No promotion/relegation for 10 years.

Now this would not have been particularly fair or easy but at least it would have been real action. If they weren't going to do this dont see the point in p*ssing about with a pretend reorganisation.

DotTV

12/12/2006, 3:37 PM

That would never work.Several clubs would cease to exist completely

bholg

12/12/2006, 3:42 PM

DotTV

12/12/2006, 3:54 PM

Well, thats a reasonable answer no doubt about it but it doesent make it any easier to stomach. It would be great to see galway and western clubs expand, but at the unfair expense of anybody else? Dundalk has had big crowds and support for decades, addmitedly not so for the last few years, but there is a massive football tradition here and seeing our attendances multiply rapidly all season there is no doubt they were on course (if in the prem)for a return to full grounds etc. this is seriously damaging for prospects here. Ill resist a nick leeson quip.
so

Well as I said before, if he can bring down Barings Bank, he'd have no problem bringing down Galway Utd!

Anyway, of course it doesn't make it easier to stomach.It's a kick in the balls for Dundalk but there was always going to be some big losers.
Dundalk brought a great crowd with them to Terryland that made loads of noise and they'd be the pride of any team in the Eircom league but unfortunately for a variety of factors they missed out this year.I hope John Gill doesn't pack it in because Dundalk can get back up to the premier again next year.

bigmac

12/12/2006, 4:01 PM

Now this would not have been particularly fair or easy but at least it would have been real action. If they weren't going to do this dont see the point in p*ssing about with a pretend reorganisation.

Excellent post (aside from suggesting a club in Wexford where none exists and leaving out Waterford :rolleyes: ). A slight reorganisation like this means that within a year or two the status quo will return. It does not have the effect of reducing the number of Dublin teams, nor of increasing regional participation. Does it really improve the league? As one poster commented, if Galway get relegated next year at the expense of Waterford or Dundalk, then we're back to square one. Smacks of rearranging the deckchairs to be honest.

bholg

12/12/2006, 4:14 PM

Makes it all the more exasperating really. getting seriously f*cked over for an essentially pointless endeavour like this 1. Hopefully we go up next year, but its still loosing out.

pete

12/12/2006, 8:45 PM

Since no-one has answered my own, and a lot of others question on this I'll ask again. What do people who say this think the alternative for clubs not saying yes to this was? I'll take Limerick as my first example (although I've already posted this point, no one responded to it).

They could have said No.

Saying they had no choice is like saying i should vote FF in the next election because they will win anyway. Cowardise to vote with opinion is no excuse.

Dodge

12/12/2006, 9:11 PM

They could have said No.

Saying they had no choice is like saying i should vote FF in the next election because they will win anyway. Cowardise to vote with opinion is no excuse.

Don't be ridiculous Pete. If they vote no, they're not allowed in any league. They had no option

pete

12/12/2006, 9:13 PM

Don't be ridiculous Pete. If they vote no, they're not allowed in any league. They had no option

They could have voted no to the merger of the eL & FAI as while the procss may not have 100% completed by then everyone knew would be entry criteria to join.

Dodge

12/12/2006, 9:16 PM

And everyone knew who was voting yes to it. Same scenario

Paddyfield

12/12/2006, 9:17 PM

I just read the previous three hundred and twenty something PLUS posts and it's a bit of a blur.

CONCLUSION

Dundalk FC are really unlucky. They brought 400 fans to Terryland Park a few weeks ago and they beat us 3 times this season. When Tony Cousins took over, there were 400 at his first home game. At the end of the season, the FAI stated that Galway United had the largest average attendance in the First Division and also attracted two biggest 'gates' in the Division. John Gill was right when he said that the Play Off was a waste of time and asked who would've been responsible if a player was seriously injured as a result of playing in a meaningless game. The merits of the Play Off were discussed on Foot.ie for weeks before it happened. Dundalk has a an excellent history in the League of Ireland.

Waterford United have been relegated in the good old traditional manner. The accountability of the IAG is concrete as the head of the FAI, who is from Waterford, couldn't swing it for his hometown club. Waterford has a successful history in the League of Ireland.

Limerick FC is also a major story. More so than any other Club, they have massive competetion in the form of Munster Rugby. I was in Limerick today and there is evidence of rugby everywhere and LFC is a poor relation. Irish Footbal needs a Limerick club; Limerick is the fourth biggest city in Ireland and has a great history in the League of Ireland. [Please don't dispute the findings of the Central Statistics Office and yes, there are huge suberbs outside Limerick city boundry but that happens in most big towns and cities so don't go there]

POINTERS:

*Galway United performed better over the last five years than Dundalk.

*All Clubs signed up for the changes.

*Galway United knew that the only way that we could get in to the Premier League was to improve the off-the-field stuff and that's what we did. In theory, Monahgan United could have won the Premier Divison by ten points this year but they would be in ther First Divsion next season.

Aaron

12/12/2006, 9:19 PM

*Galway United knew that the only way that we could get in to the Premier League was to improve the off-the-field stuff and that's what we did. In theory, Monahgan United could have won the Premier Divison by ten points this year but they would be in ther First Divsion next season.

Gotta remember on-field acheivments over the last four years is taken into account aswell.

exiled_gufc_fan

12/12/2006, 10:04 PM

Can you point me in the direction of any of these reports? The one I read in The Irish Times was very careful to state exactly what the position of the play-off!

Lot's of silence on the question I asked. Interesting.

Hot air then?

mypost

13/12/2006, 12:47 AM

So we stay down due to our record over the past four seasons, when towards the end of these seasons with nothing left to play for we were fielding youth teams at times because we weren't told then that it would affect us now. We hadn't even signed up for the past four seasons criteria, we signed up for the past five which included our FAI Cup win in 2002 but that was botched due to typical FAI incompetence with the Kildare County not existing situation.

I'm surprised you haven't used the fact that you beat Galway by 20 points the year you went down, to justify why you should go up. :confused: :rolleyes:

The decision to keep Dundalk where they are, was not unexpected and has been long forecast on this site for well over 6 months. You won a play-off which even you knew yourselves, would mean nothing. You could have won the league, and it still wouldn't have made any difference. Dundalk like everyone else, signed up to the FAI League earlier in the year, and knew what was required. It is useless crying about it now.

Terry

13/12/2006, 7:43 AM

Gotta remember on-field acheivments over the last four years is taken into account aswell.

ya, but they were completed already, what we were depending on was what we could do this year.

oriel

13/12/2006, 12:53 PM

I never expected us to get an invite, that was always clear in my mind from the start of the season. We had too much on the field ground to make up from seasons 03 + 04.

What did surprise though was Galway 'leapfrogging' over us but having read a lot since, they did make up loads of points in the off field section, its only natural to be disappointed, but good luck to them, the decision was made.

Some other clubs can also count themselves extremely fortunate to have made it. A lot of this gives the impression the points awarded on the off field section were not done on to a consistent and fair level.

For example, Shamrock Rovers well publised financial irregularities last season, the awarding of a licence when clearly false information was given, no ground at the time of the IAG decsion, was all of this not taken into account ?

Bray Wanderers, too many items to list, surely the biggest winners in all of this, quite how they 'ticked' so many boxes is still a mystery.

UCD, were any points taken off for their obvious lack of support + geographical position ?

And finally Waterford, was their playing record any worse than Bray over the past 4 years (overall), a time spent all in the premier unlike Bray, also included a cup final appearance.

For what its worth, I dont see the point in Gill continuing to moan, he knew the score.

Anyway good luck to all who got there, apart from the increased prize money and a moderate increase in live tv games, i cant see how different the Premier Lge Season 2007 will be from any of the previous years.

See you all in 2008 , I`m off to have a chat with Tom the Gom.

DmanDmythDledge

13/12/2006, 12:58 PM

UCD, were any points taken off for their obvious lack of support + geographical position ?

And finally Waterford, was their playing record any worse than Bray over the past 4 years (overall), a time spent all in the premier unlike Bray, also included a cup final appearance.
Ye it was in the criteria. It counted for 20% (100 points) for the off the field criteria.

Waterford had 4 points more than Bray for on the pitch score.

pineapple stu

13/12/2006, 12:59 PM

UCD, were any points taken off for their obvious lack of support + geographical position ?
Attendances were marked in two groups, both out of 35 (figures are approximate here, but more or less right).

The club with the highest average got 35 points. For every 150 less, you got docked 1 point. So to compare UCD (600-ish) and Dundalk (1000-ish), we would be down about 3 points on you in that regard.

Next, attendances were weighted according to where you finished in the league on the basis that, if your attendances were the same as someone who finished much higher than you, you deserve credit for that. Top half of the Premier, bottom half of the Premier, top half of the First and bottom half of the First had multipliers of 1, 1.5, 2 and 2.5, and the same procedure as above applied. So we finished in the top half of the Premier - still 600. Dundalk finished top half of the first, so 2000. That's about ten points for Dundalk.

Overall, Dundalk (and Galway and Rovers) gained about 15 points on UCD in the attendances category.

UCD should have outscored Dundalk on the geography criterion (if there was one; I think it could have come under the general mish-mash-waffley part) as Dublin is much bigger than Dundalk, even allowing for five teams in Dublin and one in Dundalk (or two in Louth).

I have the whole points tally at home from the club if anyone wants it posted.

NY Hoop

13/12/2006, 1:40 PM

For example, Shamrock Rovers well publised financial irregularities last season, the awarding of a licence when clearly false information was given, no ground at the time of the IAG decsion, was all of this not taken into account ?

Yes it was.

BTW can the title of the thread be changed? It is not and never was the premiership(I hate that word).

KOH

oriel

13/12/2006, 1:48 PM

Ok thanks lads for updates, esp pineapple, overall picture is a lot clearer now.

Also that premiership word is very annoying.

bigmac

13/12/2006, 2:28 PM

I have the whole points tally at home from the club if anyone wants it posted.

That would be interesting to see Stu.

BTW, where did the attendance figures for the clubs come from?

GalwayFrancis

13/12/2006, 5:29 PM

BTW, where did the attendance figures for the clubs come from?
the clubs fax their attendances onto the fai after every game, they just dont release them to the public, as scotland/england do.

bigmac

13/12/2006, 5:57 PM

the clubs fax their attendances onto the fai after every game, they just dont release them to the public, as scotland/england do.

probably re-raising a thorny issue here so, but why did Genesis lift their figures off here instead of getting them from the FAI. Although, given that the person responsible for compiling attendances at the FAI Cup final said that the FAI overstated the figures in Landsdowne by 20%, how accurate are they?

jebus

13/12/2006, 7:22 PM

Lot's of silence on the question I asked. Interesting.

Hot air then?

Look them up yourself, the Mirror and the red tops at the time of the matches called them promotion/relegation playoffs, RTE Radio also reported them as such, jesus do you want me to hold your hand around the Internet to find them?

GalwayFrancis

13/12/2006, 8:12 PM

probably re-raising a thorny issue here so, but why did Genesis lift their figures off here instead of getting them from the FAI. Although, given that the person responsible for compiling attendances at the FAI Cup final said that the FAI overstated the figures in Landsdowne by 20%, how accurate are they?

im not saying the fai/all clubs are accurate with their attendances, but thats how its/should be done. how many clubs in ireland count their attendances properly? for one, i know galway do. im sure cork/pats/bohs/derry prob do too.

oriel

13/12/2006, 9:31 PM

Terry

13/12/2006, 9:34 PM

what has this history lesson got to do with anything?

Conor H

13/12/2006, 9:39 PM

This is taken from dundalk talk on oriel web.

list of LEAGUE (proper) titles from the new 12

correct where any errors made in the top 5. other than that, its a pure and simple list of wannabes.

Rovers 18
Shels 10 or 11
Bohs 7 or 8
pats 5
Derry 2 or 3
cork (city) 2
sligo 1
ucd 0
galway 0
longford 0
drogs 0
bray 0

A LEAGUE OF BULLSHXXTERS

Sums the whole thing up perfectly.

Pretty pointless post.What are you saying like?
That the league should have been made up only of those who've won league titles?

History and tradition are a great thing to have but it's in the future and present where other clubs like GUFC and Drogheda thrive to make their own history.

bholg

13/12/2006, 10:53 PM

good point conor.. what have the last 4 years got 2 do with present and future?

TheBoss

13/12/2006, 11:12 PM

I can not see why Waterford and Dundalk are complaining, they both knew and agreed to new structure next season and then come out saying why us, what did we do, I can understand their frustration about the play-off.

Both entered to be in the League of Ireland, whenever they joined in the past and should know the the League of Ireland run the show and can do what they want, that is what they accpeted to when they joined the League of Ireland many years ago.

oriel

14/12/2006, 10:37 AM

Ok then, how about these points. Sound like a clearer and fairer observation from clubs who missed out or pehaps a general view of the new lge from the public and media.

1/ 6 Teams from Dublin, is a totally unbalanced spread for the country. This accounts for 50% of the teams in an are making up 30% of the country in population terms.

2/ The whole criteria was a shambles from start to finish. Having a 4 year limit was only going to suit the 'johnny come latelys' moderate clubs with poor support and very little to offer long term. Dundalk and Waterford with 15 lge titles between, both with very strong fan bases and excellent geographical locations have been punished for their only crime of recent poor performances.

3/ Clubs had no other option but to sign up for this.

4/ In no particular order, Bray, Longford, and UCD offer nothing but an easy location to Dublin, the first two only in senior football 20 years the latter since 1979, together their sum achievements is 5 FAI Cups. Add in Galway, Drogheda + Sligo and the net dividend is ONE single lge title between all 6. Premier Divsion indeed.

5/ The licensing system was totally flawed and twisted to suit certain clubs, for example both Kilkenny City and Monaghan EACH have almost 3 times the amount of seating than one Premier Club, Drogheda Utd. Shamrock Rovers have still not been punished extreme lighlty for financial irregularities during 2005. Further this club still cannot commit to a date when their ground will be ready and are at the mercy of whatever other Dublin club will offer them accommodation on a season per season. Compare this to Limerick been refused a FIRST DIV licence.

6/ A 10 team lge was tried and failed some seasons back and will not work again in 2008.

7/ John Delaney is not the man to bring this alleged new era forward. His appalling appointment of the irish senior manager and failure to have any other candidate lined up proves his shocking knowledge of the game.

8/ The scandal that was the play off was a pure waste of everyone's time and money.

9/ The fan base of too many clubs in the 12 team lge is too poor to have a quality product. UCD and Bray regularly get crowds under 1,000 and Longford have seen a sharp decline in theirs, also their recent average has dropped to below the 1,000 mark.

10/ In the UK clubs who go into administration start the season with an automatic 12 pt deduction, here a similar type of situation is bubbly away with the current champions Shelbourne and last years Cork both have winding up orders applied to them by Revenue, again nothing is done to punish them nor set a standard for future cases.

oriel

14/12/2006, 10:48 AM

good point conor.. what have the last 4 years got 2 do with present and future?

My point is both Dundalk and Waterford have twice or 3 times the potential that clubs like UCD,Bray, Longford and as much as clubs like Galway, Sligo, + Drogheda.

No provision was made for that in the criteria.

sonofstan

14/12/2006, 11:30 AM

I

Limerick FC Limerick is the fourth biggest city in Ireland and has a great history in the League of Ireland. [Please don't dispute the findings of the Central Statistics Office and yes, there are huge suberbs outside Limerick city boundry but that happens in most big towns and cities so don't go there]

'suburbs' - and its bigger than galway but that still makes it the 5th biggest city in Ireland; it goes Dublin, Belfast, Cork, Derry, Limerick, Galway....

on another point; will Dundalk be entitled to Shelbourne's place when they go belly up?

jebus

14/12/2006, 11:34 AM

'suburbs' - and its bigger than galway but that still makes it the 5th biggest city in Ireland; it goes Dublin, Belfast, Cork, Derry, Limerick, Galway....

Hadn't realised that Northern Ireland had been abolished and we'd absorbed Belfast and Derry into our Central Statistics analysis. Either way that biggest city in the Republic debate is pointless, outside of Dublin the Republic has no proper cities, the rest of us are just small towns with big suburbs

jebus

14/12/2006, 11:37 AM

im not saying the fai/all clubs are accurate with their attendances, but thats how its/should be done. how many clubs in ireland count their attendances properly? for one, i know galway do. im sure cork/pats/bohs/derry prob do too.

You'll say I'm only bringing this up because of my 'hatred' for Galway United, but there was quite a few of us from Limerick and other clubs we talked to this year that used to have a laugh at Galway boosting their 'official attendences'. Seem to recall the Limerick fans being told on here that there was something like 700 in attendence for our first visit when Limerick fans counted roughly 300-350

sonofstan

14/12/2006, 11:43 AM

Hadn't realised that Northern Ireland had been abolished and we'd absorbed Belfast and Derry into our Central Statistics analysis. Either way that biggest city in the Republic debate is pointless, outside of Dublin the Republic has no proper cities, the rest of us are just small towns with big suburbs

If you look at his original quote, he says "Ireland" - I'm less of a republican that Nigel Dodds, but, Ireland is the whole Island as far as I'm concerned

DmanDmythDledge

14/12/2006, 11:45 AM

4/ In no particular order, Bray, Longford, and UCD offer nothing but an easy location to Dublin, the first two only in senior football 20 years the latter since 1979, together their sum achievements is 5 FAI Cups. Add in Galway, Drogheda + Sligo and the net dividend is ONE single lge title between all 6. Premier Divsion indeed.
Premier Division means the best teams in the country. What happened years ago has nothing to do with how good you are now.

My point is both Dundalk and Waterford have twice or 3 times the potential that clubs like UCD,Bray, Longford and as much as clubs like Galway, Sligo, + Drogheda.

No provision was made for that in the criteria.
How does winning stuff years ago equate to having more potential? It counts for nothing in the long term.

bigmac

14/12/2006, 11:46 AM

I can not see why Waterford and Dundalk are complaining,

Link to all the complaining Waterford fans please.. :rolleyes:

jebus

14/12/2006, 11:48 AM

If you look at his original quote, he says "Ireland" - I'm less of a republican that Nigel Dodds, but, Ireland is the whole Island as far as I'm concerned

point taken and noted :)

GalwayFrancis

14/12/2006, 12:20 PM

Seem to recall the Limerick fans being told on here that there was something like 700 in attendence for our first visit when Limerick fans counted roughly 300-350

on here is not the official attendance, apart from the odd occasion where it was annonced over the PA in terryland, towards the end of the season. attendances are counted correctly in galway and i know that for a fact. how about limerick? do they count their attendances? and if so how do they do it?

sonofstan

14/12/2006, 12:24 PM

how about limerick? do they count their attendances? and if so how do they do it?

Find someone with 2 hands? so they can go up to 11?

pineapple stu

14/12/2006, 12:26 PM

on here is not the official attendance, apart from the odd occasion where it was annonced over the PA in terryland, towards the end of the season. attendances are counted correctly in galway and i know that for a fact. how about limerick? do they count their attendances? and if so how do they do it?
Most Galway attendances on here were touted as official. Even Galways fans questioned their accuracy, saying there were up to several hundred more at games on occasions.

My point is both Dundalk and Waterford have twice or 3 times the potential that clubs like UCD,Bray, Longford and as much as clubs like Galway, Sligo, + Drogheda.
If your potential is that much more than us, I'm sure you'll be overtaking us soon enough.

I've said all along that the process was rubbish and that Dundalk were screwed*, but you're gaining no sympathy from this rant of yours.

* - yes, they knew what was happening, but the process was still seriously flawed.

Conor H

14/12/2006, 1:28 PM

Stu the Galway attendaces given are/have been correct.

Jebus there was 750 at the 1st game in Terryland.350 is laughable but understandable coming from a sore and envious bunch like yereselves.

Terry

14/12/2006, 1:42 PM

on another point; will Dundalk be entitled to Shelbourne's place when they go belly up?

No, next in line points wise are Waterford

DmanDmythDledge

14/12/2006, 3:20 PM

http://www.thepost.ie/breakingnews/breaking_story.asp?j=87383700&p=87384xxz&n=87384080

Waterford United say they will be seeking clarification of the methodology used in assessing the clubs due to make up the new FAI National League Premier Division.

Waterford lost out on a place in the top flight under the selection process conducted by the FAI's Independent Assessment Group.

The club says it was shocked at being ranked so low in the off-field criteria, despite working to assemble the documentation and evidence needed to support its case for inclusion.

bholg

14/12/2006, 4:04 PM

not complaining anymore, honest... yesterday's mind boggling display a fine example what can happen if one was to be an el or Ireland follower without a good sense of the absurd..

however.. reading the last page or two..
would it not be rational to say that when setting these criteria, the fai would have already had good knowledge of the clubs - certainly about results, attendences but also a decent knowledge of all relevant details about personell and management structures. Ergo knowing exactly who would be down and up, this would imply that the IAG is only a sort of front to give a veneer of impartiality, presiding over a foregone conclusion??.
who set the scoring allowances/criteria?? fai or themselves. were they threre to attempt to measure a set of given parameters for the fai, or to decide themselves what makes a decent football club and set their own agenda... this may already have been discussed, if so, sorry... im in the dark though.

i think i read dundalk are doing the same as waterford with the request...

harpskid

14/12/2006, 4:59 PM

From FAI.ie (http://www.fai.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1551)

bholg

14/12/2006, 5:12 PM

cheers.. point 6, if true, an interesting one.... suggests the club should have piped up earlier...

"6: At every stage in the process all clubs, including Dundalk, had the opportunity to suggest changes if they were not happy with the criteria being proposed and some clubs did so. In the end all the clubs that were assessed by the Independent Assessment Group had voted for the merger with the Football Association of Ireland and thus accepted the process that would ultimately decide the make-up of the Premier Division for 2007. "

oh well...