Eircom League Co Efficient for 2006/2007

[pineapple stu]

Alas, I did copy yours... :o

[DmanDmythDledge]

But I'm still getting 2.667;

Derry= 3.5
Cork= 1.5
Drogs(at the mo)=3

Adds up to 8 which divided by 3 gives 2.667.(I think I'm right?)

[pineapple stu]

We're on 2 at the moment, which is 6/3. 6+.5+1=7.5/3=2.5

Drogs are two wins and a draw and a defeat, which is 2.5, not 3.

[DmanDmythDledge]

Was counting for 2 wins agaisnt Helsinki even though it went to ET.:o

[pineapple stu]

Drogs at penos, so we're guaranteed the win. 2.5 with one team left for sure. And one more five minutes away from destiny...

[pineapple stu]

Updated. (http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/crank2007.html) Up two to 35th - ahead of Macedonia and Georgia. Need two wins from Derry to pass Moldova, which is unlikely I suppose. Although if they got a handy draw and fluked into the groups to get four more games...! Have to equal Macedonia or we drop a place.

Sixth in Europe (http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/ccoef2007.html) at this stage - it'll drop, but nice to see.

2008/09 ranking is 29th (http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/crank2009.html), very close to the bar for a bye to QR2 of the CL.

[sullanefc]

Updated. (http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/crank2007.html) Up two to 35th - ahead of Macedonia and Georgia. Need two wins from Derry to pass Moldova, which is unlikely I suppose. Although if they got a handy draw and fluked into the groups to get four more games...! Have to equal Macedonia or we drop a place.

Sixth in Europe (http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/ccoef2007.html) at this stage - it'll drop, but nice to see.

2008/09 ranking is 29th (http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/crank2009.html), very close to the bar for a bye to QR2 of the CL.

2010 ranking is 23rd. Which means an extra CL spot and 2 places off an extra UEFA spot. Can you imagine :eek:

[pete]

Great news on the coefficients front again tonight. With a minimum of just over 2 points for team rankings next year would take a weird outcome to deny eL sides seedings in the 1st qualifying round next year.

Going to be hard to make any more progress this year but if we can even match the last 3 years good chance of making it into the 20s.

I think this makes it 3 years running have had irish side in the 1st round of the Uefa Cup! The eL/FAI should be using that footage to promote the league!

:cool: :ball:

[Poor Student]

What's interesting to note is that while most of the countries directly ahead of us drop a poorish year some of the other countries ahead of us like Bosnia and Cyprus are dropping an exceptionally good year. Hungary miles ahead look to be on a downward spiral in the next few years on current trend. We've got two crap years we can significantly improve on in the next two years. Please God Derry still have some points left to accumulate, or even better that they actually progress.

[BohsFans]

Updated. (http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/crank2007.html) Up two to 35th - ahead of Macedonia and Georgia. Need two wins from Derry to pass Moldova, which is unlikely I suppose. Although if they got a handy draw and fluked into the groups to get four more games...! Have to equal Macedonia or we drop a place.

Sixth in Europe (http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/ccoef2007.html) at this stage - it'll drop, but nice to see.

2008/09 ranking is 29th (http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/crank2009.html), very close to the bar for a bye to QR2 of the CL.

Where did that Macedonian team come from?

Did they get straight into the 1st round? :confused:

[Poor Student]

Where did that Macedonian team come from?

Did they get straight into the 1st round? :confused:

Knocked out of the CL 3rd round by Lillie.

Wait, let me get this straight, despite all the progress of the last 3 years eL sides will still be unseeded in the UEFA Cup 1st qualifying round? I see that the worst ranked seeded teams were the Lithuanians and they still have quite a better coefficient than us. So unless it's Shels in the UEFA next year or unless Derry also pick up some individual coefficient points and are in the UEFA we'll have to punch above our weight again?:(

[pete]

Wait, let me get this straight, despite all the progress of the last 3 years eL sides will still be unseeded in the UEFA Cup 1st qualifying round?

AFAIK the round you enter at is determined by the seeding of the country. Then the seeding of teams inside that round is determined by the club ranking (1/3 of the country ranking + own club points)

IF you look at the last couple of years 2.0+ points is enough to ensure all eL clubs seeded in 1st qualifying rounds. Shels have already been seeded due to the extra club point they got against Lille.

I would be confident that all eL teams being seeded next year.

A lot of this is lost on barstoolers but the league is making real progress now consistently beating teams from countries up to 10 places ahead of us.

[finnpark]

If Derry make group stakes:eek: , the eircom league will get a "bonus" 1pt like cl right?

Also 1pt for a draw in this round so hopefully Derry can get a draw in one of their matches. If its Litex they have half a chance of getting 2pts. Austria Vienna are no world beaters either .

[DmanDmythDledge]

If Derry make group stakes:eek: , the eircom league will get a "bonus" 1pt like cl right?

Also 1pt for a draw in this round so hopefully Derry can get a draw in one of their matches. If its Litex they have half a chance of getting 2pts. Austria Vienna are no world beaters either .
I'm not sure if there's bonus point, I think there might be, but it would count from the first round proper I'd imagine.

[higgins]

I would be confident that all eL teams being seeded next year.


Its in black and white in front of you Pete.

It doesnt matter how confident you are we still have to position ourselves in the TOP HALF of the countries that make up the Northern Section. Going on last years rules we are not in the top half.

UEFA decide on the regions every season but there is no reason to think they will change the rules.

The three FAIR PLAY places always upset the system so depending on how they finish you might become a seed. On past history its nearly always gone to the higher Northern Region countries and pushed us further down the list.

I think we are going to go through one more season of unseeds and then it will kick in.

Also we are seeded in the Champions League!!
Thats not to be laughed at. That is real progress.

[pineapple stu]

One other point to note - if we get five consecutive years of 2.5 (i.e. just like this year, assuming Derry don't get anything off PSG), we'd be up to 12.5. On this year's seedings, that'd be good enough for 27th and the bye to QR2 of the CL as well.

We've climbed 5 places this year. No reason why we can't do the same next year.

Higgins is spot on re UEFA Cup seeding. We'll see in a month or so if there's a bonus point for qualifying for the UEFA Cup groups. There might well be. I know there's a point or two for getting to the CL groups, even if you were seeded to enter at that stage.

That Macedonian team drew FC Basel, who beat Vaduz on away goals. They may well pick up a draw there to move ahead of us.

Estonian team - only others below us still left - drew Newcastle.

[pete]

As it stands all eL clubs guaranteed team 2.035 points for next season.

This season the lower seeded team in the CL 1st qualifying round had 1.760 points & in the Uefa Cup this was 1.925.

Going by that logic its reasonable to think will be seeded although very hard to calculate as depends who qualifiers from other countries.

:confused:

[pineapple stu]

But others' seedings move just as ours did. Lithuania were the ones on 1.925 - they'll now be guaranteed 2.4 or so.

This (http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/seeduc2006.html) is the table you want. It's not enough to improve coefficient. We have to move ahead of Latvia or Lithuania, who both had good years this year. And still, the Northern European is the weakest of the three groups (well, up to second-weakest now) - we're lucky we even have a chance of being seeded.

[paudie]

It doesnt matter how confident you are we still have to position ourselves in the TOP HALF of the countries that make up the Northern Section. Going on last years rules we are not in the top half.

UEFA decide on the regions every season but there is no reason to think they will change the rules.

The three FAIR PLAY places always upset the system so depending on how they finish you might become a seed. On past history its nearly always gone to the higher Northern Region countries and pushed us further down the list.



Damn those Latin and Balkan temperaments for ensuring the Fair Play places go to those placid Scandanavians each year:D

In the UEFA Cup northern section the only country we have passed out this season so far is Iceland who were unseeded this year also.

[pete]

But others' seedings move just as ours did. Lithuania were the ones on 1.925 - they'll now be guaranteed 2.4 or so.


I think you probably correct for the Uefa Cup but the Cl is not regionalised so effectively just ned to ensure 10 weaker countries with a CL participant below us.

[pineapple stu]

Yes. We're seeded in the CL (I don't think anyone below us has points of their own), but not in the UEFA unless Shels qualify.

Also, it's nothing to do with effective regionalisation, as you put it, but rather because there's more countries in the First Round of the UEFA, so we're shoved further down the list, relatively speaking.

[swinfordfc]

So the estonia side loss 1-0 to newcastle, can derry help the irish cause tonight? i hope so but think it might be a draw, here's hope ing :D

[Gareth]

A Derry draw means they gain on their Team Co-efficient!! Like Shels versus Lille. Does a draw mean more points in a First Round Proper than in a qualifier?

[EnDai]

Derry +1 point.
League +1 point / 3 = +0.333.

6.465 I think.

[Poor Student]

Extra good news. Rabotnicki of Macedonia lost 6-2 to Basel tonight. They're the only country with remaining sides that really effect us.

[Rebal Boy]

Thats good news to hear. I hope Derry create history in the 2leg by going though.

[thejollyrodger]

so whats our co-efficent now ?

[DmanDmythDledge]

6.165 I think.

[DmanDmythDledge]

2.833 actually. The one above is our 5 year score not counting tonight.

[Poor Student]

Another positive to consider is that both Derry and Shelbourne now have personal coefficient points to beef up their overall coefficient. Seeming as one of them will be in the UEFA next year, we should have at least one seeded team in the UEFA Cup 1st qualifying round.

[pineapple stu]

Does a draw mean more points in a First Round Proper than in a qualifier?
Counts double. :)

Didn't see anything to suggest that a draw's out of the question in Paris either. Whereas Lille and Prague were clearly better than Shels and Cork, that gap wasn't evident tonight.

[thejollyrodger]

2.833 is as far as it can go for this year I reckon. Great result for Derry tonight though. Away teams all aim for a draw away from home and win at home.

[pete]

Hard to make any further progress this year but will make progress in future years easier.

Derrys team ranking gone to 3.1 now so pretty much guarantees them seeding the 1st qualifying round for next 5 years or so.

[OneRedArmy]

2.833 is as far as it can go for this year I reckon. Great result for Derry tonight though. Away teams all aim for a draw away from home and win at home.Sorry to burst your bubble JR, but as you say, away teams go for a draw. & I`ll settle for that in Paris.

I`m not even goinq to broach how away teams can go for a win at home, as the physics of it is beyond me.

A tear in the space-time continuum perhaps?

[Terry]

now in 35th position

http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/crank2007.html

[EnDai]

now in 35th position

http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/crank2007.html

That's not been updated yet. It was last updated after the CL games on Wednesday. We'd still be in the same position, but with 6.498 as a country coefficient.

Thats 2.166 for each participating team next year. 3.166 for Derry and Shelbourne.

[cavan_fan]

A few thoughts on these rankings:

The best ranking in the world would still have had Derry in the final qualifying round for the UEFA. The problem for EL teams will always be these matches if they have to play a top Euro team (and hopefully the first half of that was last night). Assume the next steps are seeding in CL Qualifying 1 and Uefa Qualifying 1, how often do EL teams fall at this hurdle anyway?

In fact si it not a good idea to play as many early qualifying matches as possible as these are relatively easy points or is that not how it works.

Is 27th the point at whcih an extra UEFA cup place comes into play? When does the second CL place come in (20th???).

How much can seeding be swung by a single great run, e.g. how many points would it be worth if Derry qualified and then went on to win 2/3 matches?

Finally how depressing must life be in Hungary, they have no teams left in Europe and have scored 1 point in each of the last 2 years. How the mighty have fallen.

[cavan_fan]

I wonder what the odds on our clubs soon being ranked higher than our national side. At present clubs are 35th, national side is 25th in Europe.

[bigmac]

A few thoughts on these rankings:

The best ranking in the world would still have had Derry in the final qualifying round for the UEFA. The problem for EL teams will always be these matches if they have to play a top Euro team (and hopefully the first half of that was last night). Assume the next steps are seeding in CL Qualifying 1 and Uefa Qualifying 1, how often do EL teams fall at this hurdle anyway?
Seeding in the early rounds means that the EL teams will get easier draws and therefore should be more likely to get two wins under their belt - we're still another few steps away from getting byes past any rounds, which is I think what you're talking about. Look at Shels in the CL. Seeding meant that they drew a NI team and beat them well, whereas Cork were handed a much trickier tie against the Cypriots. Cork and Torshavn were the only unseeded teams to go through from this round.



In fact si it not a good idea to play as many early qualifying matches as possible as these are relatively easy points or is that not how it works.
Swings and roundabouts - should we progress to the stage where we skip the first qualifying round, there will then probably be seesaw years of up and down when we no longer have the "easy" coefficient points to count on. As against that, we should then be (in theory) better than all the teams in the first qualifiers and should hence be expected to go through. In essence the way it works up to the group stages is that better teams come in at each round so you expect the seeded teams to get through whatever round they enter at, and then fall against better opposition in the next round.




Is 27th the point at whcih an extra UEFA cup place comes into play? When does the second CL place come in (20th???).
I, as everyone will, refer you to bert's site for that one. There could also be an effect similar to what you suggest above, whereby more teams means more likelihood of an early exit for one, and points are then divided by 4.



How much can seeding be swung by a single great run, e.g. how many points would it be worth if Derry qualified and then went on to win 2/3 matches?

Qualifying would require minimum another draw (1pt), maybe a bonus point for qualifying, then if you were to suggest a win and a draw - would make it another 5/3 on top of what we have - 1.66 on top of the 2.8 - it's a big improvement for a year - would give us 4.5 points for one year but overall would still only move us up 3 places on the ranking - up to about 8.2 points in 32nd place so in terms of overall seeding, not a huge difference.

[cavan_fan]

Thanks bigmac. It appears that the real problem would be if we did rise 'too' fast as we could have a few barren years.

I can see how non Old Firm Scottish teams have suffered with This. I suspect the gap between EL and all bar Celtic, Rangers and poss Hearts is not great. But beacuse the Old Firm pick up big points the other teams start at later rounds than EL teams. For this reason they win v few games. In fact I would guess EL teams have won more games in Europe over last 5 years than non Old Firm Scottish Teams.

[pineapple stu]

Thanks bigmac. It appears that the real problem would be if we did rise 'too' fast as we could have a few barren years.
Rising too fast hasn't got much to do with it - more like rising to a certain level. I think there's a stage where two or three clubs come straight into CL2 but aren't seeded - that'd be trouble. But it's better to risk being eliminated at that stage against a better team in front of a bigger crowd with more TV money than risk losing to a First Round non-seeded team with no TV and an average crowd.

[bigmac]

Rising too fast hasn't got much to do with it - more like rising to a certain level. I think there's a stage where two or three clubs come straight into CL2 but aren't seeded - that'd be trouble. But it's better to risk being eliminated at that stage against a better team in front of a bigger crowd with more TV money than risk losing to a First Round non-seeded team with no TV and an average crowd.


Good point Stu - anyway, if there was one year where it was "barren" - we'd be back in more comfortable territory as a result the next year - hence I'll add a seesaw to my swings and roundabout and extend the playground analogy. Hopefully there won't be a slide at any stage.

[higgins]

Derry's 1 point last night is great news.

Shels and Derry are now seeded next season and if Derry do the impossible we will have all thre sides seeded which would be something else!

Getting yourself seeded and moving up the charts is what its all about. I mean look at Newcastle this season!! They couldnt have faced easier opposition in the Intertoto or UEFA Cup if they picked the teams themselves.

Once we are seeded and get that bit of luck we can start to make real progress in Europe.

We are still ranked 12th in the overall seeding for this season alone!! No doubt we will slide down a little but we are still looking at somewhere around 20... If we kept that up over a few seasons we'd be looking at extra places and bye's.

It's been a great year and finally we are seeing the end of the bad years coefficients.

[thejollyrodger]

Sorry to burst your bubble JR, but as you say, away teams go for a draw. & I`ll settle for that in Paris.

I`m not even goinq to broach how away teams can go for a win at home, as the physics of it is beyond me.

A tear in the space-time continuum perhaps?

What i meant was.... most teams who play in Europe (from the continent)go for a draw away from home and aim to win the home tie.

[pete]

I think soem people are too obsessed with CL groups stages. Progress in europe is just that progress. Hopefully we close to ensuring all eL teams seeded in the 1st qualifying round which means some easy draws available. The more experience in europe the more players improve.

I think this year has been a big step up as all 3 teams have participated to the coefficients. The more often an eL side gets to the Cl 3rd qualifying round or the Urefa Cup 1st round the more likely one of them will make the breakthrough.

[thejollyrodger]

The more often an eL side gets to the Cl 3rd qualifying round or the Urefa Cup 1st round the more likely one of them will make the breakthrough.


Good work Pete :p

[BohsFans]

Good article about the Irish co-efficient on rte.ie

http://www.rte.ie/sport/2006/0925/uefacoefficient.html

[pineapple stu]

I dont think that was Newport County Stu, it was Merthyr tydfil and dont think it was the quarters either and also think it was the late 80's.
Lost my quote, and I'm not going to bother looking back for it, but here's (http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method1/match1981.html) Newport County advancing to the quarter-finals of the 1980/81 Cup Winners' Cup and narrowly losing (3-2) to Carl Zeiss Jena of West Germany.

Merthyr Tydfil, however, did lose to Atalanta after beating them 2-1 in the home leg in 1987 (http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method1/match1988.html).

[gspain]

Good article about the Irish co-efficient on rte.ie

http://www.rte.ie/sport/2006/0925/uefacoefficient.html

OK own up who hacked the RTE site and got a mention of domestic football on it?

[swinfordfc]

Great season for LOI but can Derry further progress it by getting something out of this game? i hope so but just think they fall short.