Spurs/Arsenal Champions League Spot? [Archive] - Page 4

Karlos

23/04/2006, 1:03 PM

I don't want to waste any more energy on this really. I still maintain the ball should have gone out. It's fustrating to have it do it when someone gets injured as happened on at least 10 occassions to Arsenal in the game Vs Villereal on Wednesday while we were in very good position buts it's good sportmanship in my eyes and universally accepted.

Players being players I expect this isn't the last we'll hear of this and I wouldn't be surprised to see a dodgy action resulting in a season defining moment between now and the end of the year and I don't expect any uproar if it occurs.

I'll state again as I did at the very start, Spurs played very well yesterday and were deserving of their point and I've absolutely no argument with the result on the overall 93 minutes. People are bandying about the 'sore loser' tag but it's wide of the mark. Firstly we didn't lose the game nor have we lost anything yet and secondly it's the incident and subsequent denials that are a problem to me - a moral issue if you will and one I will be unmoved on.

I'm also not surprised that no one has mentioned Wenger's actual comments on the Spurs performance as a team and their deserving of something out of the game too - it doesn't fit with the 'sore loser' tag either but it's not being printed anywhere today. The 'printable' issue is purely over the goal and conceived sporting nature of it. Everyone has their opinion on it and Wenger is entitled to have is as am I.

I'm actually surprised no one has said it yet but at least Keano put the ball into the touch - *******! :) :)

Karlos

23/04/2006, 1:11 PM

yes i presume you seen the MOTD interview with henry as well, and thats why i think wenger should have tried to have a bit more class like henry. wenger was suggesting imo that jol was lying - when the replays clearly showed him looking away from the arsenal player sitting down.

i think you are letting your bias here get the better of what should really have been a non story - spurs did nothing wrong.

It should be noted that Wenger's interview was conducted directly within minutes of walking down the tunnel after the game while Henry had the luxury of a relaxing shower before his. Henry despite his use of words did not dissagee with anything Wenger said. He said he felt they should have put it out and still does feel that way. Speaking to Carrick & Davids he said, he has to take their word on it that they didn't see but he did not say however that they were right to not put it out.

edit: Carrick has now confirmed he should have put the ball out - at least he has the balls to admit that much and by return proves Arsenal had a definate
right to be unhappy about it as I strongly believe.

"It happened so quickly that I did not know he was down injured," Carrick said.

"I was concentrating on getting us forwards. Unfortunately there is a bit of controversy about it.

"I did not know he (Eboue) was down injured otherwise I would have put the ball out. You do not want to score goals like that, but it is just the way it happened."

thejollyrodger

23/04/2006, 2:36 PM

I saw the incident with the two arsenal players and it was a completely irrelevant. No spurs players were invovled so the robbie keane goal was perfectly ligit.

I hope spurs can go on and beat west ham and bolton but it will be hard.

geysir

23/04/2006, 7:14 PM

They mightn't be Arsenal fans but it's hardly neutrality - a quick search on older posts can prove that. Some are as anti as I am pro :)
I would concede that there could be bias here because Keane slotted home the goal, personally I couldn't be bothered to be emotional about either team.
Almost every other confirmed neutral has it as a legit goal.
"I didn't see that particular incident"
You can order the tee-shirt on line, its quite popular.
Its been used so often that Arsene eventually used it to parody himself.
What about this report
"Some commentators have disingenuously compared it with the oh-so-generously replayed Arsenal v Sheffield United FA Cup 5th round game from February 1999, to try and put Arsenal in a more favourable light. That was a totally different situation. In that instance, the ball had been put out of play as a result of an injury to United�s winger, Lee Morris. He was genuinely injured and was substituted. After the substitution, most players from both teams were standing in the centre of the pitch waiting for the ball to be returned to United�s goalkeeper and for play to resume. Instead of returning the ball, Arsenal took a quick throw-in down the line, resulting in a �two-on-none� situation, and Overmars easily sidefooted into an empty net. Not quite the same as Saturday�s goal.

A closer analogy is the FA Cup semi-final from April 2003 (again, Arsenal v Sheffield United!) when Wayne Allison was "injured" (well, at least as �injured� as the Arsenal players today) after being crudely taken from behind by Sol Campbell (note - not after running into one of his own players). Allison stayed down in Arsenal�s half, but Arsenal took advantage and played on. Moments later, Michael Tonge was clearly about to intercept an Arsenal pass when he was sent flying over by Graham Poll. Again, Arsenal took advantage, and with two United players out of the picture went on to score. They won 1-0 and went through to the FA Cup Final."
I don�t recall Wenger complaining about that goal."

Karlos

23/04/2006, 9:56 PM

"Some commentators have disingenuously compared it with the oh-so-generously replayed Arsenal v Sheffield United FA Cup 5th round game from February 1999, to try and put Arsenal in a more favourable light. That was a totally different situation. In that instance, the ball had been put out of play as a result of an injury to United’s winger, Lee Morris. He was genuinely injured and was substituted. After the substitution, most players from both teams were standing in the centre of the pitch waiting for the ball to be returned to United’s goalkeeper and for play to resume. Instead of returning the ball, Arsenal took a quick throw-in down the line, resulting in a “two-on-none” situation, and Overmars easily sidefooted into an empty net. Not quite the same as Saturday’s goal.

Not the same incident but the situation was the same - it concerns an injured player and an obvious advantage over players who were out of position. Sportingly, Ray Parlour actually threw the ball back to Alan Kelly only for the over-exuberent Kanu, making his debut to unwittingly take advantage. In true sporting fashion, Arsenal offered to replay directly after the game claiming it a hollow and unfortunate victory.

Ars�ne Wenger, Arsenal's manager, announced: "I have offered to replay the game here at Highbury. It is the only thing I can do. I am trying to repair an accident. Kanu and all of us are very, very sad."

Steve Bruce added: "It was the bitterest moment of my career, and I've been around a long time. I was sickened. I felt we'd been robbed and cheated. But Arsenal's gesture is just what we'd expect from them."

It's a pity Martin Jol hasn't decided to repair an accident that his own player, Michael Carrick has admitted to making. It's still amazing how the so-called neutrals can't see the error but the offending player can :rolleyes: (see quotes from Carrick in previous post)

A closer analogy is the FA Cup semi-final from April 2003 (again, Arsenal v Sheffield United!) when Wayne Allison was "injured" (well, at least as “injured” as the Arsenal players today) after being crudely taken from behind by Sol Campbell (note - not after running into one of his own players). Allison stayed down in Arsenal’s half, but Arsenal took advantage and played on. Moments later, Michael Tonge was clearly about to intercept an Arsenal pass when he was sent flying over by Graham Poll. Again, Arsenal took advantage, and with two United players out of the picture went on to score. They won 1-0 and went through to the FA Cup Final."
I don’t recall Wenger complaining about that goal."

Not an accurate comparison to yesterday at all but I'll answer it anyway. Firstly Campbell won a ball from Allison that was deemed to be won fairly by the referee (although it looked like a foul). Allison was not out of position when he lost the ball and Arsenal did not exploit a position he would have taken up as Neil Warnock confessed himself. Warnock's problem was with referee Poll for a) not giving the free kick and b) for running into Tonge. Tonge was not injured in the play, he gets straight back up and plays on. Warnock himself absolved Patrick Vieria of all blame and aimed all his critisicm at Poll.

"He said to me that Michael Tonge had run into him, but that's not how I saw it - he could have stood still and avoided the collision. He missed the free-kick and then took out our player. I'm not blaming Patrick Vieira for not kicking the ball out but while referees are honest they are making honest mistakes."

If Tonge was lying injured then the ball should have gone out of play. The simple fact was, he wasn't.

Allison the striker went down after the challenge from Campbell and after the ball was travelling away. Again he was not out of position nor was the ball or the opponent moving into his vacant position (unlike Eboue yesterday) and Arsenal were not gaining ANY advantage as a result.

The only advantage comes from the referree not deeming the tackle as free kick, something that happened 10 times probably during yesterday's game without complaint. (Poll "I did not think it was a foul and I'm more than happy with my decision.I've only got one angle, and from that angle it looked to me as though the player was going to ground prior to any contact.")

What Arsene has a problem with is something very different than what Neil Warnock had a problem with. The situation couldn't be any more different.

geysir

23/04/2006, 10:59 PM

Game one, Mistake was glaringly obvious to everybody on the planet, the solution could not have been more obvious. All Arsenal had to do was allow Sheffield to score a goal for an on the spot repair job.
For game 2, the report mentioned closer analogy, not claiming to be an accurate comparison.
But 10/10 for amazing dexterity with your interpretations of game 2 :)

Have you come across anybody who thought Keane's was not a legit goal.
Anybody in the media, printed, tv or radio ? (lee dixon does not count)

Karlos

24/04/2006, 12:07 AM

Have you come across anybody who thought Keane's was not a legit goal.
Anybody in the media, printed, tv or radio ? (lee dixon does not count)

I don't think I ever claimed it wasn't legit, (in hindsight I may have used the word legit describing their other chances or alluded to the LOTG which was probably inaccurate on my side).

I think there is an obvious issue over the sporting nature of the goal, a point backed up by Michael Carrick's own remourse over not putting the ball out in his comments.

I believe there was a justified complaint from Arsenal and I believe the other quotes by Wenger point to the nature of the goal and not the 'sore loser' aspect that it's being portrayed as. His comments on the Spurs performance are there for all to see.

For all the talk of old examples highlighting Arsenal's actions, I've yet to see any savy media journo bring up the Andy Sinton incident in 96. Fans don't forget as easily as the meeja, that much is apparant!

I hope I'm done on this but I have noticed Neil hasn't been around yet so this one might roll on! I think my own feelings on this (as openingly biased as anyone else's) are there for all to see.

Stuttgart88

24/04/2006, 7:35 AM

I've got a dose of the Martin Jols on this one: I didn't see it. I saw about 85 mins of the game, but my baby son's appetite made me nip out to the kitchen for a crucial few minutes.

On the replays I only saw the Davids cross & Robbie's finish. First off, fair play to Robbie. He timed his run well and lost his marker brilliantly. Great to see him doing so well.

It was only later that I heard that there was controversy.

As a general observation I think this lark of kicking the ball out everytime a player gets a minor knock is infuriating. It leaves the game wide open for cheats to prosper - Albania at Lansdowne Road immediately springs to mind. What age were we all when we first learnt the adage "play the whistle"?

If I was Wenger I'd be far more upset that Arsenal showed none of the class or hunger that has been present in any of their successes. That's certainly how I felt. I suppose deep down this game was an unwelcome sideshow to the Arsenal players & it showed. But runs of form build their own momentum and Arsenal should have given it everything from the start in my opinion. It was similar at WHL in the first game. Arsenal only started playing when it looked likely they'd lose.

I also think Wenger, no matter how genuine he felt his reasons were, should have maintained a more dignified demeanour. Throwing the toys out of the pram only shows Jol he's rattled. I honestly think that Wenger, Ferguson & Mourinho are a shocking example of sportsmanship to the hundreds of thousands of children who adore them. I'd expect more from Wenger than the other two but he continuously lets me down in this regard.

Wenger said he'd never seen anything like it in English football, obviously forgetting all about the FA Cup match Arsenal won against Sheffield United:)

Overall a fair result and one that suits Spurs far better than Arsenal. Hopefully Arsenal will make 4th place an irrelevance. And regardless of how Arsenal end up in Europe I'm not going to get too bothered about 4th place anyway. Any team who loses 11 games a season barely deserves 10th, let alone 4th, so it'd be a hollow "success".

I'd also add that for all his ability, Jose Antonio Reyes infuriates me. He plays the game in such a dishonest, sly & mean-spirited manner I find him hard to take. Cop on for your own sake lad.

eirebhoy

24/04/2006, 9:33 AM

The situation couldn't be any more different.
You could use that sentence for the incident you're trying to compare Saturday's goal too aswell. :)

NeilMcD

24/04/2006, 9:45 AM

Great Post Stuttgart I agree with everything you have said there.

Overall the game was a very good one with Carrick controlling the game for long periods. Diaby never got close at any stage and as a result Carrick could play his passes with ease. Spurs played very well for about 65 minutes of the game and should have been at least 1 goal up with they did eventually scored. Arsenal only started playing when Henry Fabregas and Eboue came on to the pitch. Shortly after that they were a goal down and had to chase the game. I thought their attitude and work ethic in the 1st half was terrible. Henry's goal was sublime and he is a great player and character.

On the spurs goal it is clear that Carrick did not see that the players were injured. Also Sky Sports confirmed yesterday that Jol did not see that the players were injured as he was clearly looking at Davids all the time even when Carrick had the ball and he was saying Play Play Play as in play the ball to Davids.

Secondly even if the players had seen the incident I would have had no problem with them playilng on for one simple reason. The referee checked on the 2 players as they went to ground Gilberto was getting up and the ref seemed happy to let the game go on. I think we need to go back to a time when the referees whistle is what determines the start and stop of play. I felt that last wed in the Villareal game when a few players were cheating by staying on the ground. The ref on Saturday was happy that the players were ok and continued to let the game go on. Spurs scored. I honestly dont see a problem with it and I think I would say the same if it happened the other way.

However Lehmans reaction was terrible as he went straight to Davids when if anybody it was Carrick that should have been confronted. He knew that Davids is a hot head with a suspect temperament. Wenger should not have given an interview so soon after the game if he could not control his emotions. I know he is obliged to give an interview but he could have sent Pat Rice out. Callilng someone a liar and a disgrace and possibly cheat is very strong words esp having not looked at the pictures again. If everybody was to call Wenger a liar everytime he said he did not see an incident the game would be in chaos. To be honest I think Wenger was frustrated at his own teams performance and he was using this incident to vent that anger. Its a dangerous game that he played on Sat by putting all his eggs in one basket by trying to win the Champions League. Seeing Arsenal this season and Chelsea with all their money ets, It does show what an achievement that the treble season of 1999 for Man Utd was.

Finally one thing that I am happy with with Spurs is their behaviour in matches this season. They have had 3 players sent off Dawson twice and Davids but none was for bad behaviour but just 2 bookings that are quite easily picked up in the Premiership. There have been no incidents were Spurs were involved in nasty play this season with over the top tackles etc etc. Martin Jol has also impressed me with his diplomacy and fair assessments after games also. This cannot be said for previous Spurs managers i.e. Glenn Hoddly Gerry Francis etc etc.

A few weeks ago I felt that Spurs would beat Everton lose to Man Utd and draw with Arsenal. That is exactly what has happened and I also felt that West Ham would get to the final of the FA Cup which is good for Spurs in my view. Bolton are terrible on their travels at the moment and Spurs are in good form in relation to performances so I feel that 6 points is well within Spurs grasp. Spurs still need to beat the top teams but that will come with experience.

NeilMcD

24/04/2006, 10:00 AM

Arsenal - 1 Tottenham - 1: Throughout the saga of Thierry Henry's uncertain future mention has been made of how much Arsenal will miss the striker if he departs. Over the past 15 days their fans have received painful confirmation of the gap he would leave. None will doubt that Arsene Wenger's gambles in not starting the captain against Manchester United and Tottenham contributed to taking one point from those two matches. It now looks as if the team will have to win the European Cup to play in it next season.

Wenger is entitled to point out that Arsenal only drew at Portsmouth in between with Henry and that sparing use of the 28-year-old in the Premiership may make the difference between the club lifting the European Cup for the first time or going out in the semi-finals.

The manager cannot be blamed for wanting to take a rare chance to prevail in that tournament and correctly predicted that Villarreal would rest 10 players against Real Sociedad on Saturday. But failure in Europe and a finish below fourth in the league will leave his selections looking unwise.

Whatever the rights or wrongs of omitting Henry here, his impact after coming on in the 62nd minute spoke volumes. Though one of his first duties was to watch Robbie Keane's incendiary goal, he responded by making a chance, equalising and helping to push Spurs ever deeper in Arsenal's best spell of pressure.

Henry psychologically boosts his team while deflating opponents, and Emmanuel Adebayor and Robin van Persie were mainly quiet. Henry's celebration after he finished sweetly from a rare penetrating Adebayor pass, running almost the length of the field towards the away fans, is unlikely to bring Football Association censure, though the governing body will take guidance from the referee Steve Bennett on that as it sifts through the fallout.

It will today study footage of Jens Lehmann's and Robert Pires' confrontation with Edgar Davids after Keane's goal to decide whether charges are required. It will also examine Wenger's claim that Martin Jol lied in saying he had not seen two Arsenal players on the floor after colliding as Spurs began the move that ended in them scoring and the managers going eyeball to eyeball.

He may be asked to explain his comments and can expect a fine if subsequently charged and found guilty. He was still consumed by anger that Tottenham had not kicked the ball out to allow treatment when he addressed his selections.

"People will criticise because Thierry Henry didn't start," he said, "but at the end of the day I think if Tottenham had not stolen that goal we would have won."

Talk of lying and thieving reflected Wenger's frustration at Arsenal's performance and the latest failure of his rotation but should not obscure one important fact. Jol made one of Saturday's more unarguable observations when he said: "Tottenham deserved something from this game."

Spurs were superior in the first half and could have won with sharper finishes or final passes. Aaron Lennon exposed Philippe Senderos and Mathieu Flamini when running at them but needs to improve his delivery.

This season Arsenal have won two of the eight Premiership games Henry has not started. On Saturday they were not helped by vapid displays from Jose Reyes and Pires and the inability of Abou Diaby to help Gilberto Silva gain a grip on a midfield in which Michael Carrick and Teemu Tainio were outstanding.

Spurs are guaranteed a Uefa Cup berth and wins at home to Bolton and at West Ham will secure fourth spot.

They were helped by a clever performance by Keane, who could hardly miss when set up by a cross from the busy Davids, whose late red card for a second booking could not ruin Tottenham's joy.

NeilMcD

24/04/2006, 10:04 AM

Best quote of the day from Jol.

"He doesn't know how strong I am, otherwise he wouldn't approach me with a head-butt," smirked an unrepentant Jol afterwards. He was though, "disappointed" to be called a liar, insisting he had not seen Eboue on the ground"

NeilMcD

24/04/2006, 10:07 AM

Spurs leave Highbury with a lasting legacy
By Clive Tyldesley (Filed: 24/04/2006)

Match details

Arsenal (0) 1 Tottenham (0) 1

In pics: Premiership action
Your View: Premiership forum

The last goal scored by a Tottenham player at Highbury could prove to be both the most famous and infamous of them all. A glory, glory moment for Spurs will be forever recorded in Arsenal folk history as an act of treachery. Whenever 'the Robbie Keane goal' is drunkenly debated in years to come, it will be remembered differently on each side of the north London divide, particularly if it is all that divides Tottenham from Arsenal in the Champions League race.

The two managers traded insults and locked touchline antlers over it. Arsene Wenger accused Martin Jol of lying about it. On the field, it led to Edgar Davids being set upon by Jens Lehmann. Even up in the stately Highbury directors' box, suited and booted VIPs openly bickered about it. The legacy of a goal that broke no laws and no bones, and was no more than Tottenham deserved, could run into millions. Because of it, Arsenal's most direct route back into the Champions League is now to win it.

For once, the referee did not get blamed by all and sundry. And yet, Steve Bennett's quick spot-check on the condition of the two Arsenal players who collided and went down as Tottenham headed for goal is the key to settling the controversy. If he had considered that either was in need of immediate attention, he could have stopped the game. Michael Carrick and Davids merely followed his lead and their instincts in playing on to set up Keane's simple finish, rather than kick the ball out to allow Arsenal to treat their wounded. Only Emmanuel Eboue subsequently required treatment, and he was able to continue.

The whole incident was unfortunate, but Arsenal's reaction was unacceptable. Lehmann raced from his goal to join Robert Pires in hounding and haranguing Davids. Wenger confronted and accused Jol, who stood his ground in an unseemly clash of eyeballs. Soon after the restart, Pires kicked through Jermain Defoe with a crude and vengeful tackle. Something was thrown into the Spurs section of the directors' box, where the Arsenal managing director threatened to expel one visitor. Worst of all, Thierry Henry followed his brilliant equaliser by running towards the Spurs fans to provocatively celebrate before them. "We are responsible for our behaviour," Wenger said defiantly. "Tottenham behaved like they behaved. It's their responsibility, but I think if they had not stolen that goal, we would have won the game."

Methinks Arsenal protesteth too much. Without their over-reaction they might not have found the momentum to rescue anything from a weary display. Wenger rested five key players ahead of tomorrow's Champions League semi-final return with Villarreal and Tottenham could have been a couple of goals up even before Keane struck. Aaron Lennon led Arsenal a merry first-half dance, and Carrick was imperious throughout. The watching Sven-Goran Eriksson has probably settled on his World Cup team, and doesn't need anyone changing his mind now. He had better stay away from Tottenham games. Carrick's poise, presence and pass selection were immaculate. Unhurried and unerring in his use of the ball, he was a whisker away from capping a pedigree performance with a stunning individual goal before the break.

Such goals are weekly occurrences in the life of Henry. Released from his substitute's cage with half an hour to go, the revved up Arsenal captain saved the day with a sumptuous late offering. His first touch to control Emmanuel Adebayor's pass was almost as deft as the casual flick of the foot with which he caressed the ball past Paul Robinson. Arsenal's final onslaught was reinforced when Davids needlessly got himself sent off, but all Wenger's frantic Basil Fawlty impressions on the touchline could not contrive a happy ending.

The Arsenal manager's frustration was deepened by Philippe Senderos limping off at Highbury with a knee injury that will probably rule him out against Villarreal. So a north London derby without the added spice of a Sol Campbell appearance may prove to be the game that returns the England centre-back to centre stage.

The dust from this game will not settle until the final Champions League place is settled. The destiny of fourth place in the Premiership is Tottenham's to do what they will with - at home to Bolton and away to West Ham. But thanks to Uefa's muddled ruling, in the wake of Liverpool's win last year, Arsenal's Champions League destiny is still in their own hands. And Tottenham's with it. No wonder the two managers are not quite ready to shake hands.

geysir

24/04/2006, 10:39 AM

I don't think I ever claimed it wasn't legit, (in hindsight I may have used the word legit describing their other chances or alluded to the LOTG which was probably inaccurate on my side).
I think there is an obvious issue over the sporting nature of the goal, a point backed up by Michael Carrick's own remourse over not putting the ball out in his comments.
I believe there was a justified complaint from Arsenal and I believe the other quotes by Wenger point to the nature of the goal and not the 'sore loser' aspect that it's being portrayed as. His comments on the Spurs performance are there for all to see.
.
Karlos you have implied that anybody neutral is a so called neutral.
I might prefer to be called a liar and a cheat but a so called neutral hurts:)
I will rephrase the question. Have you found anybody anywhere in the media (outside the Arsenal box) who thinks the goal was tainted as a result of an unsporting act, that Carrick cheated, that Davids cheated?

NeilMcD

24/04/2006, 11:18 AM

The battle for places in the Champions League and the FA Cup Final - coupled with the increasingly puzzling search for England's new manager - provided the perfect backdrop to a weekend of high-drama.

It started with a very public spat between Arsenal boss Arsene Wenger and Spurs counterpart Martin Jol, had the filling of Liverpool and West Ham reaching Cardiff, and was rounded off by the emergence of Luiz Felipe Scolari as favourite to succeed Sven-Goran Eriksson.

I feel Wenger should apologise to Jol for labelling him a liar

Let's start at Highbury and the controversy over Robbie Keane's goal in the 1-1 draw at Arsenal that saw Spurs edge closer to sealing fourth place.

Arsenal clearly felt Spurs should have put the ball out with two of Wenger's players down injured.

I have to beg to differ, and I feel Wenger should apologise to Jol for labelling him a liar over his insistence he never saw the incident.

The pictures are conclusive. Jol did not see it. He was looking at Edgar Davids all the time and Wenger has got it wrong.

I now feel an apology is in order from Wenger. People will understand the stakes were high, and things are said in the heat of the moment that are sometimes over the top.

I speak from experience. When my Liverpool team-mate Jim Beglin broke his leg in a challenge with Gary Stevens in a League Cup tie at Everton, I was asked what I thought of the tackle.

My response was: "Apart from being a mile high and an hour late it was fine."

I was speaking right after a game when I'd seen a mate badly injured by what I thought was a bad tackle. It was heat of the moment stuff on my part and it was later sorted out.

The issue of putting the ball out of play when someone is down injured is a thorny one - I believe Spurs were completely within their rights to play on at Highbury.

The injuries were not bad, referee Steve Bennett had checked, and was happy for play to continue.

I must stress I am not talking about Saturday's situation, which was a genuine collision between two players, but there is a growing fear that this recent piece of sportsmanship is open to abuse.

If there is a clash of heads or a very obvious injury, play should not go on, but there may be cases where if a player goes down and the opposition are attacking, they are not going to get up in a hurry and may hope play is stopped.

You can bracket it with diving. They are seeking to gain an unfair advantage.

Arsenal were not doing this on Saturday - but Jol still deserves an apology from Wenger

Karlos

24/04/2006, 11:19 AM

Have you found anybody anywhere in the media (outside the Arsenal box) who thinks the goal was tainted as a result of an unsporting act, that Carrick cheated, that Davids cheated?

Michael Carrick. The most defining comment on the incident of the whole weekend. :)

NeilMcD

24/04/2006, 11:22 AM

Karlos

24/04/2006, 11:24 AM

Speaking of bias - there's no one better at it than Clive Tyldesley but I'm sure you know that history already. He couldn't even get the shaking hands incident correct at the end.

Spurs leave Highbury with a lasting legacy
By Clive Tyldesley (Filed: 24/04/2006)

Match details

Arsenal (0) 1 Tottenham (0) 1

In pics: Premiership action
Your View: Premiership forum

The last goal scored by a Tottenham player at Highbury could prove to be both the most famous and infamous of them all. A glory, glory moment for Spurs will be forever recorded in Arsenal folk history as an act of treachery. Whenever 'the Robbie Keane goal' is drunkenly debated in years to come, it will be remembered differently on each side of the north London divide, particularly if it is all that divides Tottenham from Arsenal in the Champions League race.

The two managers traded insults and locked touchline antlers over it. Arsene Wenger accused Martin Jol of lying about it. On the field, it led to Edgar Davids being set upon by Jens Lehmann. Even up in the stately Highbury directors' box, suited and booted VIPs openly bickered about it. The legacy of a goal that broke no laws and no bones, and was no more than Tottenham deserved, could run into millions. Because of it, Arsenal's most direct route back into the Champions League is now to win it.

For once, the referee did not get blamed by all and sundry. And yet, Steve Bennett's quick spot-check on the condition of the two Arsenal players who collided and went down as Tottenham headed for goal is the key to settling the controversy. If he had considered that either was in need of immediate attention, he could have stopped the game. Michael Carrick and Davids merely followed his lead and their instincts in playing on to set up Keane's simple finish, rather than kick the ball out to allow Arsenal to treat their wounded. Only Emmanuel Eboue subsequently required treatment, and he was able to continue.

The whole incident was unfortunate, but Arsenal's reaction was unacceptable. Lehmann raced from his goal to join Robert Pires in hounding and haranguing Davids. Wenger confronted and accused Jol, who stood his ground in an unseemly clash of eyeballs. Soon after the restart, Pires kicked through Jermain Defoe with a crude and vengeful tackle. Something was thrown into the Spurs section of the directors' box, where the Arsenal managing director threatened to expel one visitor. Worst of all, Thierry Henry followed his brilliant equaliser by running towards the Spurs fans to provocatively celebrate before them. "We are responsible for our behaviour," Wenger said defiantly. "Tottenham behaved like they behaved. It's their responsibility, but I think if they had not stolen that goal, we would have won the game."

Methinks Arsenal protesteth too much. Without their over-reaction they might not have found the momentum to rescue anything from a weary display. Wenger rested five key players ahead of tomorrow's Champions League semi-final return with Villarreal and Tottenham could have been a couple of goals up even before Keane struck. Aaron Lennon led Arsenal a merry first-half dance, and Carrick was imperious throughout. The watching Sven-Goran Eriksson has probably settled on his World Cup team, and doesn't need anyone changing his mind now. He had better stay away from Tottenham games. Carrick's poise, presence and pass selection were immaculate. Unhurried and unerring in his use of the ball, he was a whisker away from capping a pedigree performance with a stunning individual goal before the break.

Such goals are weekly occurrences in the life of Henry. Released from his substitute's cage with half an hour to go, the revved up Arsenal captain saved the day with a sumptuous late offering. His first touch to control Emmanuel Adebayor's pass was almost as deft as the casual flick of the foot with which he caressed the ball past Paul Robinson. Arsenal's final onslaught was reinforced when Davids needlessly got himself sent off, but all Wenger's frantic Basil Fawlty impressions on the touchline could not contrive a happy ending.

The Arsenal manager's frustration was deepened by Philippe Senderos limping off at Highbury with a knee injury that will probably rule him out against Villarreal. So a north London derby without the added spice of a Sol Campbell appearance may prove to be the game that returns the England centre-back to centre stage.

The dust from this game will not settle until the final Champions League place is settled. The destiny of fourth place in the Premiership is Tottenham's to do what they will with - at home to Bolton and away to West Ham. But thanks to Uefa's muddled ruling, in the wake of Liverpool's win last year, Arsenal's Champions League destiny is still in their own hands. And Tottenham's with it. No wonder the two managers are not quite ready to shake hands.

NeilMcD

24/04/2006, 11:30 AM

Should also just point out that Spurs have qualified for Europe through a league postition which is the 1st time since 1982/83 season. Of course they would have done so 1987 but English teams were banned from Europe.

Karlos

24/04/2006, 11:39 AM

Karlos, Carrick said he did not see it but if he had seen it he would have kicked the ball out of play. Wenger has called Jol a liar and Spurs liars. He should say sorry for that. Carricks judgement is that if he saw it he would have kicked the ball out of play, fair enough but I honestly think the decision should rest with the ref and not the players and the ref clearly was happy with the play going ahead. If we have a game officiated by players discretion it will result in anarchy. As I said earlier the refs whistle must be the key to the start and stop of the game.

I agree with most of that Neil but Carrick's own admission proves that Arsenal had a genuine complaint over the incident. People are asking me for proof that an injustice was done and I don't think you can look any closer than the player who committed it. What some media people are saying about means nothing, look at the person involved. The player accepts the ball should have gone out, Martin Jol on the other hand does not. Carrick is a bigger man in my view.

Nobody on the other hand has jumped on Jol's refusal to shake Wenger's hand (another highly unsporting act), in fact people have actually accused Wenger of it and the media nor the posters here have moved to correct this, even after Jol has confirmed it was HIM. I think you'll see a Wenger apology when Saint Martin is willing to admit his sins too. :o

"It is just disappointing. I usually shake hands with the other manager, but he walked away."

NeilMcD

24/04/2006, 11:46 AM

I just posted up the medias view so people could have a read of it. I do this on other threads and by me posting them does not mean I am endorsing the view held within the articles.

I think its Carricks Judegement that he should have kicked it out of play but I actually think he is wrong and so does Martin Jol and many other observers. As I said the ref is in control of the situation not Michael carrick. It is he who should stop and start the game. It is not as if the ref did not see the incident and was caught upfield. He assessed the situation and let play go on. Even if Carrick looked up saw the two players and then played on I would say it is fine due to the fact the ref let play go ahead. I think that is the key to the whole incident.

I think the Arsenal players and managment lost the cool after the incident without lookilng at what actually happened. Wengers challenged Jol on the touchline and Jol stood up to him. If Jol refused to shake hands well then he is wrong to have done that. I have a feeling that Wenger probably called Jol a liar to his face and not just to the cameras as you can clearly see Jol saying to Wenger "I did not see it I did not see it" This could possibly be the reason the 2 managers did not shake hands after the game which is wrong in my view.

All in all a good game and the correct result.

NeilMcD

24/04/2006, 11:49 AM

It just proves they're both a pair of ar*eholes.....F*ck 'em.
Football doesn't need the likes of them, Moan-rinho & Old Beetroot Face.:mad:

What a stupid comment that is.

Ferguson has brought on most of the best English players in recent time.

Wenger has introuduced or improved so many good players over the last 10 years. The attacking football is sublime from them

Martin Jol is very popular in Holland for nurturing of young Dutch talent is now doing the same for many English players for Spurs and has helped Robbie Keane with his game no end also.

Karlos

24/04/2006, 11:49 AM

It just proves they're both a pair of ar*eholes.....F*ck 'em.

Two? only looks like one to me in that example. At least Fergie & Wenger have always offered the hand. The people & clubs who have't been at the highest level for a little time seem to struggle with common courtesy a bit.:mad:

Looks like no-one is going to condemn Jol for this.

NeilMcD

24/04/2006, 11:57 AM

You said that football does not need them and I would argue that the footballing world would be a poorer place without Ferguson, Wenger, Jol, and Mourinhio. Do you happen to support Liverpool by any chance cause Mr. Benitezis not whiter than white. Every manager is guiltly of bad behaviour during or before or after games no manager is free from this.

Stuttgart88

24/04/2006, 12:24 PM

Am I right in thinking that Wenger actually went halfway to the Spurs bench but Jol wasn't there to shake hands, so he went down the tunnel instead? Jol's got to be culpable here.

Either way, I think Wenger has been foolish. By antagonising other managers and whipping up controversy it only makes the opposition even more determined to beat Arsenal the next time they play. No matter how upset he is I maintain that Wenger should constantly look to take the high moral ground and avoid all these disputes. Surely he can let off steam in another way, or privately with his own players.

Also, the English media do a good enough job portraying the Premiership in the same vein as WWE Wrestling (which I utterly despise) without the star characters doing the job for them.

OwlsFan

24/04/2006, 1:09 PM

There is an old truism: "You cannot bear to see your own faults in other people". Thus when Wenger heard that Jol suffered from the same myopia that he has suffered from constantly over the years, he got enraged. Calling Jol a liar basicially meant that he too had been lying all those times he said "I didn't see it".

The ref checked whether the players were injured. Neither was. Absolutely no need to stop the game. The game has survived a 100 years or more with this putting the ball out when an opponent goes down - hopefully this stupid "code of honour" (when we know many professionals these days possess no such thing) of putting the ball out (except for head injuries) will disappear up its own posterior where it belongs.

mypost

24/04/2006, 1:44 PM

The game should have been abandoned yesterday so with all these free kicks taken without the referree blowing a whistle - are you serious :confused: .

There is absolutely no difference under the laws of the game between a direct free kick on the centre circle or in your own corner or indeed just outside the box. The referee is not required to blow a whistle for EVERY free kick under any law.

As a neutral looking at the thread, it seems that you've backed Wenger, as almost everyone says Spurs goal was perfectly valid.

There's not much point giving out to me; we had enough of the, will we or won't we? 4th spot debate last year. If you lose 4th this year, it won't be down to the goal you're moaning about, but rather throwing up points at Bolton, Blackburn, Boro, Chelsea, OT, Portsmouth, etc, and
our place. You've had plenty of chances to get 4th this season, they are the reasons why it looks like you won't.

geysir

24/04/2006, 2:30 PM

Michael Carrick. The most defining comment on the incident of the whole weekend. :)
Lets now say that you concede that 100 % of all known media report thinks the goal was not unsporting.
That leaves you with Carrick's quotes.
Carrick revealed he had spoken to Arsenal skipper Henry immediately following the game to explain there was no bad sportsmanship from the Spurs side.
He said: "I did not cheat. I said to Thierry straight away afterwards that I would have put the ball out if I had known, but it happened so quick. If I knew someone was injured I would have put it out.
"You can only play to the whistle and I played on because I thought it was the right thing to do.
"But I am not the sort of person who takes advantage of someone being injured."
I take it that that quote is your sole support.

What is Carrick saying? he is saying he is not a cheat, he is sporting, he was right in his action to continue with the play and the goal was not unsporting. 100% media pundits/reporters etc agree with him.
"If I had known someone was injured"
so he did not know, breakaway play moved on at a speed.
Was there somebody injured?
Eboue after carelessly clashing with own player actually sat up, strained his neck had a look at where the ball was and clutched his leg and went back down again hardly qualifies as being injured. Some say he even clutched the wrong leg but thats harsh :)

Docboy

24/04/2006, 8:12 PM

As a Spurs fan I have to say I always more than impressed with Martin Jol when it comes to any controversial incidents. The way he dealt with the goal that never was at Old Trafford last season showed the measure of the man. I feel Arsenal made a mountain out of a molehill.

Karlos

24/04/2006, 11:03 PM

geysir

25/04/2006, 12:58 AM

Am I right in thinking that Wenger actually went halfway to the Spurs bench but Jol wasn't there to shake hands, so he went down the tunnel instead? Jol's got to be culpable here.
Scene 3 Act 2
Wenger went straight down the tunnel, head down.
Jol was not in the camera picture.
It didn't look like a handshake was in order.

Earlier, probably his deeper emotions were unhinged by the shock after sudden restoration of vision allowing him to witness an actual incident.

I think he has moved up the pecking order to be be invited onto the RTE panel. We might have one of those RTE moments if Giles says to him ' I don't agree there Arsene, I think you're lying'.

Marked Man

25/04/2006, 3:47 AM

Stuttgart88

25/04/2006, 8:13 AM

NeilMcD

25/04/2006, 8:23 AM

Have to say Karlos you are usually spot on most things on the site but I agree you have got a bit carried away with this incident. But from my personal point of view its good to see Spurs up there competing with Arsenal in the league. I am sure the informative posts will come back soon.

Dodge

25/04/2006, 8:28 AM

James Lawton is spot-on in his assessment of Wenger in today's The Independent:

http://sport.independent.co.uk/football/comment/article359943.ece

I haven't cut & pasted the whole article - it's long and its format on the web makes it difficult to cut & paste.
You shouldn't do it anyway, the link is good enough.

BTW lads, I'm not re-reading this thread but has it been confirmed hat will happen if Arsenal win the CL and Spurs get 4th place. Have they changed the rules after Liverpool's "concession" this season?

Stuttgart88

25/04/2006, 8:39 AM

Yes, rules have changed. Spurs would go into UEFA Cup.

NeilMcD

25/04/2006, 8:43 AM

Although there is talk that Spurs are going to contest this. However I dont agree they should change the rules. Whatever the rules are at the start of the season, that should be the rules at the end. If that means Spurs missing out due to Arsenal winning it than so be it.

Dodge

25/04/2006, 8:51 AM

Thanks for that

NeilMcD

25/04/2006, 8:54 AM

[QUOTE=KarlosIRL]Martin struggles with the truth but he's not a LIAR! ;)

Over and done with now however - Arsenal have a big European Game tomorrow and Spurs have an exciting episode of Eastenders to watch. :D

QUOTE]
Ahh I think Spurs will watch the Arsenal game and learn from Villareal how you can finish fourth in your league and then go on to get to the Semi final of the Champions League. As Robbie said if Spurs get there, there iis no reason why that should not aim to do a Villareal.

Karlos

25/04/2006, 1:24 PM

I'm happy to say, I've read over all my posts and everyone elses while I was at it I might add. I have absolutly no regrets about anything I have said - I've called it as I've seen it and as I've heard it - not as how the media told me. I don't believe I've intentionally offended anyone in the process but if I have then I apologise wholeheartedly..:o

I have used quotes and/or examples extensively to back up my argument & explain my reasoning which no one has to agree with. I've intentionally not gone for what I conceive as openly bias driven media articles to back up my claims, I've gone to the source. I've quoted Wenger, Jol, Carrick, Henry, Warnock, Poll, Bruce to name just a few. If direct quotes from the people invloved in all the incidents is not informative enough for some, then there is little more I can do. I believe it's my differing opinion and not the lack of information that some are having difficulty with.

On the read back I also noticed there are some issues I've raised that have yet to be discussed here or defended in the manner that the goal has. That ship has sailed now but I wasn't surprised to not see them adressed.

To call my posts unpretty in the face of some of the posts here with wild accusations of cheating, diving and myopia without backing it up with anything (not a single quote in some instances even after it was requested) is disappointing I feel. My posts are without question passionate and if my passion offends then I apolgise. I love the game and particulary Arsenal but I won't make any arguments that I don't feel I can back up or explain as to why I think like that. Can everyone on the thread, say the same? The read back suggests otherwise for some, in my opinion.:)

I will not toe the line with the media spin on any footballing issue for the sake of it. Football is about opinions and I've expressed mine and explained my thinking as have a select few here.

So for the very very very last time on this issue, and in as calm a manner as I have ever been in, my humble opinion is:

Do I think the ball should have gone out of play? Yes
Do I think it's the sporting thing to do? Yes
Did Spurs overall perfromance deserve a point? Yes
Do I now accept that Carrick would have put the ball out under normal circumstances? Yes
Was Wenger wrong to call Jol a Liar publically? Yes
Did Martin Jol lie about any of the incidents on Saturday? Yes
Is this the result that will cost Arsenal the Champions League place? No
Is the 4th place spot gone now? No
Will I be watching Eastenders Tonight? No (this one's just a little bit of fun by the way!) :)

NeilMcD

25/04/2006, 1:29 PM

Great post Karlos. Fair play.

Stuttgart88

25/04/2006, 1:32 PM

To call my posts unpretty in the face of some of the posts here Maybe they were getting confused with your photo on your blogsite. That certainly is unpretty :)

Fingers crossed for tonight. Arsene has made me nervous all of a sudden. He showed signs of stress on Saturday & I'm hoping they were only temporary.

I, for one, admire your enthusiasm, be it for Arsenal, Ireland and just about everything else you post about. I don't always agree mind, but so what?

jebus

25/04/2006, 1:51 PM

To be perfectly honest I think the arguments earlier of, unsporting behaviour is not in the rulebook is quite frankly disgusting, not even in regards to this situation, but in regards to any football match. In my opinion if a player, opposition or not, is down and you have the ball, you put it out to make sure the player in question is okay. So Eboue turned out fine in this particular incident, what if he had snapped an ankle for instance, would it still have been perfectly acceptable for Spurs to carry on and score? I don't see how any Spurs player, or even those bastions of medicine, a referee can tell whether a player on the ground holding his league needs attention or not. Unsporting behaviour, whether it is diving, stampi8ng, or not putting the ball out is what gives football its terrible name amongst the media and fans for being a scummy game, played by scum and followed by scum, and is what needs to be stamped out (pardon the pun).

And again I'm not an Arsenal fan, although I do appreciate the type of football Wenger has brought to the English game, and I do think he went over the top at the pre-match conference, but then again he's an Arsenal fan, who have wrongly lost two important points because of a dubious decision, so he was bound to be fired up

NeilMcD

25/04/2006, 2:04 PM

Sorry what was the dubious decision that lost them 2 points. Spurs did not break any rule and the referee let play go on.

geysir

25/04/2006, 3:32 PM

Martin struggles with the truth but he's not a LIAR! ;)

Jol to the BBC "'I was going to the referee and shook hands with him."

Jol to Skysports "I hate it when I'm right and I offer somebody a handshake and they walk away. That's very difficult to take."

Apology, my arse
The Sky sports quote does not support your accusation of Jol as a liar.
It is taken from
http://home.skysports.com/list.asphlid=381658&CPID=8&CLID=6&lid=&title=Jol+hits+back+at+Wenger&channel=
There are a series of seperate quotes.
It obviously (to me) reads as Jol was not going to offer a handshake to Wenger in case Wenger refused and walked away.There is no lie, no contradiction.

I will not toe the line with the media spin on any footballing issue for the sake of it. Football is about opinions and I've expressed mine and explained my thinking
Karlos, you did made a comment about so called neutrals here, I asked you to find any source anywhere outside the arsenal box to support your opinion that Spurs goal was unsporting. The media was a suggestion. I don't expect you to get your opinions from the media, I just asked if you could find any to support your opinion.

Karlos

25/04/2006, 10:57 PM

Maybe they were getting confused with your photo on your blogsite. That certainly is unpretty :)

There isn't a quote in the world I could use as defence for that pic! It has been changed recently, nothig to do with your comments however I might add!:)

Fingers crossed for tonight. Arsene has made me nervous all of a sudden. He showed signs of stress on Saturday & I'm hoping they were only temporary.

I, for one, admire your enthusiasm, be it for Arsenal, Ireland and just about everything else you post about. I don't always agree mind, but so what?

Poxy peformance tonight but performances rarely matter in cup competitions. I'd settle for a poxy win in the final too. I know we are a much better team than that.

Might be my aul bias again but thought the penalty was very harsh. Clichy never takes his eye off the ball and the lad throws himself like a sack of spuds. Justice was done I feel. Villereal had a few decent chances that they might have stuck away but that's cup football as Man Utd found out in the FA Cup Final last year.

Best of all is the 10 clean sheets. Impossible to imagine as little as 6 months ago that this team would hold the best defensive record ever inthat competition:eek: . A credit to Jens to who also tonight claimed the record of longest without conceeding. He has been immence all year and has been my player of the year for a long time now.

Roll on Paris!

Win or lose, this team and it's manager have proven so much to me this year. It's been a struggle all year but I'm certain it will have been worth it and the benefit will be seen in years to come.

Stuttgart88

26/04/2006, 7:34 AM

Jaysus, that was one of those "watch from behind the sofa" matches. It was a bit like watching Ireland in Israel, just feeling that impending doom was around the corner. A few years ago I braked a little too hard on a very wet road, approaching traffic lights where an old couple were waiting at a red light in their car. I aquaplaned for about 30 yards with no sign whatsoever of slowing down. I watched in what seemed like slow motion as the old couple's car just got nearer & nearer. Miraculously, about two feet from their bumber my tires suddenly caught the road and I stopped inches from their car. That was like watching Arsenal last night. It was a certain disaster panning itself out in a painfully slow manner, but somehow it was avoided just at the end.

I think the sheer scale of the occasion paralysed Arsenal. Their game is all about sharp, quick, accurate passing & last night their passes had no "zip". Everything was lethargic & it gave Villareal time to close down and, far too often, intercept. I can't believe Arsenal didn't create one single chance before Henry's 1-on-1 near the end. Again, I honestly don't think Wenger's outburst at the weekend helped the players get settled for this match but WHO CARES????

Was it a penalty? Harsh, but Clichy gave the referee every reason to give it. He had no chance of winning the ball in the air so he should have stayed on his feet. What angered me though was when, 2 or 3 mins earlier, Franko (?) just threw himself onto the ground behind Campbell right in front of Fr. Dick Byrne, sorry, Valentin Ivanov. If I was the ref I'd have made a note of the dive and only given any subsequent penalty if it was absolutely stonewall, which this one wasn't. Watching Jose Mari crumpling onto the ground made me squirm.

Apart from the penalty I thought Clichy was superb. Arsenal should bag what they can get for Ashley Cole.

I actually felt Lehmann would save it. He's been colossal all year. He has redeemed himself for the TWO blunders against Chelsea which in my opinion cost Arsenal the CL two years ago.

Arsenal were pants on the night, no doubt, but it's hard to argue that the team which won 7 out of 8 in qualifying, kept 9 (10?) consecutive clean sheets, beat Real Madrid & Juventus in the knockout stages, played entertaining football through most of this and has only conceded 2 goals isn't worthy of a place in the final. Karlos mentioned that the better team doesn't always go through in cup football - just ask Bayern Munich and also Inter Milan in MUFC's CL winning run.

Bring on Barcelona. I think Milan would be a tougher opponent for Arsenal to overcome. At least Barcelona will give up some chances & it'd be fascinating to see how Gilberto copes with Ronaldinho. For all their brilliance I think Barcelona aren't as methodical and cynical as Milan can be.

I should add that Arsenal have avoided (so far) being tripped up by their European Nemesis: Spanish clubs. Valancia twice & Zaragoza. Barcelona are Catalan so they don't count :)

OwlsFan

26/04/2006, 8:48 AM

Good description of the game. Playing one man up front usually means the ball comes back a lot, particularly if that one man wasn't on his game, which Henry wasn't last night.

Some people might say Arsenal were lucky but you got to look at the chances created over the 2 games and Arsenal probably shaded it in that regard. Arsenal played a defensive game and hoped to hit them on the break and it didn't work. Hleb gave the ball away too much as did most of the others. Not long ago Lehmann was dropped by Arsenal - now he's the hero. It's a funny old game.

The peno - it was one like O'Shea against Israel (and the foul on Quinn in Korea by Spain) since outside the box they'd be given 95% of the time. Inside the box about 10% of the time so Arsenal were unlucky in that regard.

What does this say about the Premiership - two of their less fancied teams have made it to the CL League Final in successive seasons. Wonder what the poison dwarf Dunphy will say about that since when Chelsea were knocked out by Barca he used that as a stick to beat the Premiership.