Palestinian Israeli Conflict.

[CraftyToePoke]

Opening a thread as some interesting stuff elsewhere misplaced elsewhere on the site & the last few days etc have been unprecedented.

[osarusan]

Very surprised to see the speed and uniformity of the 'We stand with Israel' type stuff from various European leaders.

I've never seen it before, and I wonder what is behind the changed message.

[nigel-harps1954]

Very surprised to see the speed and uniformity of the 'We stand with Israel' type stuff from various European leaders.

I've never seen it before, and I wonder what is behind the changed message.

I don't think it's too controversial to suggest it's largely because Israel is a rich US-backed country, and Palestine is just 'arab terrorists', or as the Israeli foreign minister so eloquently named an entire nation of people "human animals".

[pineapple stu]

But that's been the case the past few decades, so wouldn't explain a change in message.

[SkStu]

I noticed it too. My own personal opinion, the EU needs a quick de-escalation of the tensions there and strong statements of condemnation for the actions and support for Israel sends a message to the players in the region to get it under control and/or stop aiding Hamas. The EU has basically got a war on its borders that it is dealing with as well as the ongoing tensions between Serbia/Kosovo and even Serbia/Bosnia. The last thing they have the resources for is supporting an open conflict in the ME too.

Their strong messages of condemnation/support also indirectly supports the US efforts to broker relationships between Israel and Saudi which many see as a key to providing a sustainable peace in the region.

I could be wrong but there’s broadly a lot at stake here for the EU and this is one they see as needing to be shut down quickly.

[dahamsta]

I'm not surprised by the support for Israel, the actions of Hamas are ill-conceived and futile. However I am disappointed by it. You can be critical of Hamas without doing that. I'm also very, very frustrated by America's near-instant financial support of Israel. I understand it, but I hate it. Israel is a big boy, a rich boy, and they take great pleasure in telling everyone so. They should stand on their own two feet.

I don't support this action by Hamas, in any way. But I continue to hate the Israeli state for their actions, in particular their disgusting, vile leader. And I hate the Israeli people that vote for them and support them. They should be ashamed of themselves. But they aren't.

Hate is a strong word, and intended. And that's not anti-semitic. It's just anti-a55hole.

[CraftyToePoke]

I think the support is possibly those countries being absolutely terrified of what Israel may do next here, they aren't known for restraint or counting to ten and the attack was disgraceful. If there is any space for their present government to present this as the world taking a what goes around comes around slant, then God help everyone.

Been reading about the falling support for a two state solution within Israeli society, particularly in recent months, but you'd imagine a load of kids dancing in a field might be more open to a live and let live, work this out approach & in that support of two states demographic & they've butchered them.

[SkStu]

I don't support this action by Hamas, in any way. But I continue to hate the Israeli state for their actions, in particular their disgusting, vile leader. And I hate the Israeli people that vote for them and support them. They should be ashamed of themselves. But they aren't.

Hate is a strong word, and intended. And that's not anti-semitic. It's just anti-a55hole.

With respect, you could equally replace all references to Israel in that statement with Hamas and you would still have a valid opinion. Based on todays reports, what happened to the people at the music festival doesnt even sound like the worst of the atrocities with the killing of kids and babies in Kfar Aza. Its disgraceful, its evil. Anyone who supports Hamas (in practical terms or in spirit) is equally worthy of contempt and should be ashamed of themselves but they aren't. And not just confined to this incident. Hamas is anti-semitic, support for them is support for anti-semitism.

Sometimes both parties to an argument are complete a55holes.

[elatedscum]

Based on todays reports, what happened to the people at the music festival doesnt even sound like the worst of the atrocities with the killing of kids and babies in Kfar Aza. Its disgraceful, its evil.

Once again, today's reports need to be taken with a huge degree of scepticism. The Israeli army have said they can't confirm them. The babies thing seems to have come from an interview that Israeli-American journalist Nicole Zedeck made with David Ben Zion where he said "

“We talk door after door. We kill a lot of terrorists. We are stronger than them. They are aggressive. They are very bad. They cut head. Off Children, cut head off women. But we are stronger than them.” (He continues talking but audio is cut). Sounded from intonation like he might have been talking more generically about ‘the enemy’ or his perception of Muslims.


From that quote, a clearly very nervous Zedeck, live on tv said: “As I mentioned earlier, about 40 babies, at least, were taken out on gurneys”, when asked about it: “That is what one of the commanders told me… He said we don’t know the exact number of casualties” - which was then shared and given the headline 40 babies murdered by Israel’s Ministry Of Foreign Affairs’ Digital Diplomacy Team. That’s then become 40 beheaded babies by your right wing Americans.


She’s now backtracked slightly to “babies/children” - but the Israeli military have shown a lot of journalists the site and no one has come out with any first hand claims of seeing what is alleged and the Israeli military (not reliable at the best of times) is also refusing to confirm.


Not saying that there’s no truth - but if you were looking to create a narrative to ensure that you were seen as good guys, then claiming the others were beheading babies is a pretty good start. The claims about the German woman were similar - that she was murdered, raped, her naked mutilated body spat on and paraded around etc etc. Turns out that she’s alive in Palestine, requiring medical treatment for a head injury.

There's so much disinformation across the board that you're better sticking to genuine credible news sources, while still questioning the narrative that's being pushed.

[SkStu]

I read it on BBC, like.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67065205

[CraftyToePoke]

I read it on BBC, like.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67065205

Yes, I did too initially, but the IDF have not confirmed this thus far despite several opportunities to do so. Maybe they don't want to let on they dropped the ball so badly, maybe it happened, but hopefully it did not. I have Sky News rolling here as I type and they are on the subject now, it does seem under doubt or at least not fully verified to an extent that BBC should have run it, at least as yet.

The below is from five hours ago.


The Israeli army has no information confirming allegations that "Hamas beheaded babies," Israeli army spokesperson unit told Anadolu on Tuesday.

It was alleged that Hamas's armed wing, the Qassam Brigades, "beheaded many Israeli babies" on the Israeli side during the early Saturday morning attack launched from Gaza.

When Anadolu contacted the Israeli army spokesperson unit over the phone and asked about the allegations, she said "We have seen the news, but we do not have any details or confirmation about that."




https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-army-says-it-does-not-have-confirmation-about-allegations-that-hamas-beheaded-babies-/3014787#

[SkStu]

Fair enough, thanks for the clarification. Glad - truly - for it not to be true in that way. That said, there can be no doubt that, beheadings or not, it amounts to another horrific butchering.

[CraftyToePoke]

The claims about the German woman were similar - that she was murdered, raped, her naked mutilated body spat on and paraded around etc etc. Turns out that she’s alive in Palestine, requiring medical treatment for a head injury.

Ok, is she verified as alive and ok bar the head injury ?
I saw footage earlier, which I will not post on here but it is on Telegram Channel: Ukraine War Live - October 8th & it was a girl unconscious in the back of a pick up with what look an awful lot like armed Jihadis, she is in her underwear, with blood in her hair, and her leg is bent in a way a human leg does not bend without blunt force impact. She is spat on by them.

Is this fake ?
Is this a different girl ?

I am also hearing IDG / Israeli Govt are taking international media around the massacre sites but not allowing local media ones access.

Here :: https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-brings-international-press-to-massacres-sites-near-border/

Is this true and if it is why might this be ?


--------------

Can anything be believed any longer ?

[joey B]

While It was always good to double check things on Twitter to be sure now it’s a complete lost cause,Musk has destroyed it completely and it’s a disinformation dump now….

[Fixer82]

While It was always good to double check things on Twitter to be sure now it’s a complete lost cause,Musk has destroyed it completely and it’s a disinformation dump now….

Is it really? Or is it just still a disinformation dump?
The truth is probably in there in the midst of a lot of disinformation. I don't see a huge difference in new twitter to old twitter Maybe less virtue signalling just

[seanfhear]

Very surprised to see the speed and uniformity of the 'We stand with Israel' type stuff from various European leaders.

I've never seen it before, and I wonder what is behind the changed message.
America ~ ~ They all pretty much do as America directs.

[joey B]

Is it really? Or is it just still a disinformation dump?
The truth is probably in there in the midst of a lot of disinformation. I don't see a huge difference in new twitter to old twitter Maybe less virtue signalling just

People who fight disinformation for a living say it’s much worse,as I said double checking was always good though…
Monetising engagement was only ever going to make things worse though…..

[Stuttgart88]

What can Hamas have expected to achieve by this action? There can only be one Israeli response with such a hawkish regime in charge. Who's influencing them and why?

Might someone be trying to galvanise domestic far right support given Netanhyu's unpopular changes to domestic judicial policy and/or his upcoming corruption case? (Conspiracy alert!!)

I also heard that US support for Israel will reduce supply of weapons available to support Ukraine. Any truth in this?

[backstothewall]

What can Hamas have expected to achieve by this action? ?

I think what Hamas have proven here, via the most brutal means imaginable, is that the Israel military simply can't defeat them or even weaken them to the point that the Israeli people can ever truly be relaxed about their threat. The IDF went in to Gaza in 2014, presumably aiming to emasculate Hamas once and for all, yet less than 10 years later they're on the verge of having to go back in and do it all over again. Since the collapse of the Camp David negotiations in 2000 and 9/11 successive Israeli governments have sought to impose a settlement on Palestine, but it hasn't worked and won't work.

With use of drones on the battlefield evolving rapidly in Ukraine, I imagine we'll soon be at the point where rocket attacks are the least of Israel's security worries. Israel has a first class military and security apparatus so they must realise this. In the short term Israel will do what they do, but in the longer term the politicians are going to have to talk to Hamas.

It might seem unlikely today but in the long term there is no other viable option. The British had to talk to SF and the Americans had to talk to the Taliban for the same reasons.

[dahamsta]

With respect, you could equally replace all references to Israel in that statement with Hamas and you would still have a valid opinion. Based on todays reports, what happened to the people at the music festival doesnt even sound like the worst of the atrocities with the killing of kids and babies in Kfar Aza. Its disgraceful, its evil. Anyone who supports Hamas (in practical terms or in spirit) is equally worthy of contempt and should be ashamed of themselves but they aren't. And not just confined to this incident. Hamas is anti-semitic, support for them is support for anti-semitism.

Sometimes both parties to an argument are complete a55holes.

I don't really understand this post to be honest. You seem to be suggesting that I support Hamas in some way, and I've no idea where you're getting that from.

[SkStu]

I don't really understand this post to be honest. You seem to be suggesting that I support Hamas in some way, and I've no idea where you're getting that from.

Ah no, not at all - sorry if i gave that impression. The point I was trying to make, maybe clumsily, is that there are no good guys in this conflict. And i struggle to see how one is materially better or worse (more/less justified in their actions) than the other. Both sides are, in their different ways, utterly reprehensible. But there seems to always be a prevailing tendency to focus on the wrongs of Israel and their supporters while pardoning or downplaying the actions and mentality of Hamas (and I don't limit that to the recent events/atrocities) and their supporters. And as i said on the Robbie Keane thread, I'm not convinced there is a workable solution when you have aggression and rhetoric on both sides that is so absolute.

[dahamsta]

Perhaps it's my inherent dislike of the Israeli state in general and Netanyahu in particular showing, but I think an actual state has more responsibility than... whatever the hell Hamas is. They have been working inexorably towards the thing they escaped from since day one. Don't even get me started on the stuff they got up to to go nuclear, or Mossad generally. They make the CIA look like tellytubbies.

And the people keep voting for them, like Americans voting for Trump and Tipp people voting for Lowry. It's just gross.

I have no sympathy for either of them. They're both disgusting in their own ways. But again, Israel is a state.

[pineapple stu]

But there seems to always be a prevailing tendency to focus on the wrongs of Israel and their supporters while pardoning or downplaying the actions and mentality of Hamas

I think that's probably out of an understanding (maybe based on our own history) that Israel are clearly the aggressors in all this, and that if you poke anyone as much as Israel have, you're going to get a backlash.

That's just human nature, without saying it's right to storm a rave party and machine-gun down a couple of hundred people, or anything else Hamas have done.

One of the big problems from anything I've seen of this issue is how many ordinary Israelis buy the rhetoric that the Palestinians deserve to be treated in the way they are. It's a fairly small sample - a few people online, or stuff like Levison Wood's Arabia or Paul Theroux's The Pillar of Hercules. It's a really unhelpful element though. And I'm sure the feeling is more than mutual.

Agree with dahamsta too that there's an element of State v random terrorist organisation here (like the British Government and the IRA actually)

[dahamsta]

^^^ Said it better than me.

[SkStu]

I think that's probably out of an understanding (maybe based on our own history) that Israel are clearly the aggressors in all this, and that if you poke anyone as much as Israel have, you're going to get a backlash.

That's just human nature, without saying it's right to storm a rave party and machine-gun down a couple of hundred people, or anything else Hamas have done.

One of the big problems from anything I've seen of this issue is how many ordinary Israelis buy the rhetoric that the Palestinians deserve to be treated in the way they are. It's a fairly small sample - a few people online, or stuff like Levison Wood's Arabia or Paul Theroux's The Pillar of Hercules. It's a really unhelpful element though. And I'm sure the feeling is more than mutual.

Agree with dahamsta too that there's an element of State v random terrorist organisation here (like the British Government and the IRA actually)

Kind of but... Hamas is an elected body with large support across Palestine and is responsible for the governance of Gaza. To the best of my knowledge, there is no distinction between Hamas as a political organization and a terrorist organization (unlike SF/IRA) and they obtained majority support and close to 50% of the vote. My point is really to ask why the people who voted for Hamas aren't equally as worthy of contempt as Israel? I know - and have clearly talked about how much Israel must shoulder the blame for the situation - but i think, objectively, the other side is also at fault and this needs to be acknowledged and changed if peace is the objective.

Not only is Hamas an entity that is anti-Semitic to its core and wants to destroy Israel (with similar beliefs and actual support from many other players in the region) but - and we all are fairly knowledgeable on the history - but this also goes back to the events that led to the creation of the State of Israel and ultimately to the 1948 war. If you want to play the blame game (i say that generally, not to anyone in particular on here) I think it is only right to follow the thread back as far as reasonable to understand what decisions and activities led to the current entrenched positions and actions of both sides. If you believe the State of Israel should exist, you should, by extension, believe that it deserves to exist a) free from threat of destruction and b) that it upholds the responsibilities of a state. Neither a) nor b) are happening.

I truly don't want to put myself in the position here of being seen to defend Israel, as i really do not feel that way, but I just don't buy fully into the "Israel is the cause" line and so I'm playing devils advocate in the interest of healthy discussion. At the very least that statement or position comes with a ton of history, context and qualifications that shouldn't be ignored or dismissed by people with strong opinions one way or another.

I'm actually really interested in hearing from folks here on what it might take for the situation to resolve? With all that history, context, rhetoric etc... it seems impossible that a platform on which to build "peace" is even there.

[joey B]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/

Worthwhile article on Hamas and the Israeli government’s relationship with it,Netanyahu has played a big part in its consolidation of power in Gaza……

[osarusan]

America ~ ~ They all pretty much do as America directs.

Not really. USA has been a staunch supporter of Israel for years, and while this Hamas attack is particularly gruesome in terms of the scale and nature of the killings, it's not unprecedented.

But this time various Eurpoean parliaments and landmark buildings are beaming with the Israeli flag and EU countries and leaders are 'standing with Israel' in a way that is unprecedented.

[pineapple stu]

Kind of but... Hamas is an elected body with large support across Palestine and is responsible for the governance of Gaza. To the best of my knowledge, there is no distinction between Hamas as a political organization and a terrorist organization (unlike SF/IRA) and they obtained majority support and close to 50% of the vote.
Fair point actually. Though I do still think the Palestinians/Hamas are far more sinned against than sinning in all this.


I'm actually really interested in hearing from folks here on what it might take for the situation to resolve? With all that history, context, rhetoric etc... it seems impossible that a platform on which to build "peace" is even there.
I had a couple of comments in the other thread, but they're purely hypothetical as I don't think Israel has any interest a resolution really.

In the immediate term, what's needed now is a calm, measured response from Israel. So what are they doing? Telling a million people they have to leave the north end of Gaza within 24 hours (https://news.sky.com/story/israel-gaza-war-latest-hamas-palestine-sky-news-live-blog-12978800). That's utterly barbaric, and if it goes ahead would surely rank as one of the worst atrocities in living memory? And that's after already quietly killing more Palestinians since the attack than Hamas did in the original ones.

There's surely no other outcome possible now than an escalation of violence. EU leaders can't keep having Israel's back with this response.

[sbgawa]

Israel is a functioning democracy that is surrounded by a bunch of basket case countries ruled by Despots and Religious nut jobs.
My instinct is to support them a bit like when the Cold war was brewing and i had to ask myself would i rather have the USA or Russia rule the world...lesser of two evils.
I dont think there is a solution to the problem which is a bit depressing.
The Gaza strip is just a piece of Land...if Israel pushed every resident into Egypt it just moves the problem a few miles South with Tunnels and attacks from there instead.
I dont think Israel showing "restraint" will win them any credit from Hamas , the kind of people that shoot Children at a concert arent to bothered about subtelty....
The violence will escalate and die down eventually before starting again...like i said a bit depressing

[pineapple stu]

Plenty of religious nutjobs in Israel too. Just because it's a different religion doesn't mean they're not as nutty. The Ultra-Orthodox Jews ironically may be the breaking of Israel in the future. High birth rates and a general refusal to work, because studying the Torah is more important. They'll be a huge part of the Israeli population in another generation and there's already discussions around what'll happen the economy when that happens (https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-government-wants-more-ultra-orthodox-men-work-faces-pushback-2021-07-26/).

Think that qualifies as "religious nutjobs" in my book. And guess who they've been supporting in power? Yep - Netanyahu.

[sbgawa]

If i had to live in either Iran or Israel i know where i would live and certainly where the missus would.

I dont want anyone killed either by having their head hacked off , beig shot at a concert or having a bomb dropped on them from a Jet.
The whole middle east is a disaster area. If ISrael was gone in the morning it would still be a disaster area, with one less functioning democracy.

[pineapple stu]

If i had to live in either Iran or Israel i know where i would live and certainly where the missus would.
In fairness, that's not really relevant to the discussion.

One of the ironies of the current problems in Iran is that its people are revolting against the regime. (They'd probably be called Islamophobic here). If more people did that throughout the Middle East, it'd be a better place.

Conservative Islam is a horrible culture (by our standards), but let's not let that kid ourselves into thinking Israel is a beacon of sanity "surrounded by a bunch of basket case countries". It's also a pretty nasty place with plenty of religious nutjobs pulling the strings.

[SkStu]

And guess who they've been supporting in power? Yep - Netanyahu.

The interesting thing is that the opposition party in Israel position on Israel protection is only slightly less "warmongery" than Likud!! I mean they are slightly better in that they ran on a campaign of striving for peace but also protecting Israel and maintenance of the current settlements (albeit no expansion)... while change is good in this scenario (Netanyahu carries baggage), improvement in relations would be marginal if you ask me. With that domestic political landscape/philosophy, it also forces you to take a look at why they have to be so resolute in their positions. They are surrounded by countries and terrorist groups that want to destroy them!

[sbgawa]

In fairness, that's not really relevant to the discussion.

One of the ironies of the current problems in Iran is that its people are revolting against the regime. (They'd probably be called Islamophobic here). If more people did that throughout the Middle East, it'd be a better place.

Conservative Islam is a horrible culture (by our standards), but let's not let that kid ourselves into thinking Israel is a beacon of sanity "surrounded by a bunch of basket case countries". It's also a pretty nasty place with plenty of religious nutjobs pulling the strings.

TBF Stu , i never said it was a beacon of Sanity , i just think that if you look at the middle east as a whole Israel is probably the least basket case country compared to its neighbours. That doesnt mean i support them i just think its self evidently true.

It s a case of in the Kingdom of the blind the one eyed man is king

[pineapple stu]

i just think that if you look at the middle east as a whole Israel is probably the least basket case country compared to its neighbours.
I don't think this is self-evidently true to be honest.

Other countries may have had civil wars, but Israel is a really nasty aggressor state in the region. I think that - and this idea of giving 1 million people 24 hours to leave their homes - is worse.

[Trequartista20]

In the last few days, the Zionist regime has carried out deadly attacks on the West Bank, Syria, Lebanon, (where it appears they have killed multiple members of the press - very probably deliberately), and Gaza, to whose people they are in the process of subjecting an utterly barbaric mediaeval-style siege, denying its population food, electricity, water and medicine. They've also threatened to bomb Egyptian convoys trying to send absolutely essential life-saving aid through the only port of entry they don't control.

This is what we are dealing with - a regional menace, 'democratic' or not. The people of Gaza are facing complete annihilation. This is genocide. The death toll in Gaza already exceeds that of the purported number of deaths caused by Hamas's actions. Many hundreds of children have been killed. Even before this latest round of blood letting, more Palestinian children had been killed in a single year than ever before. Half of Gaza's 2.3 million people are children.

The Zionist entity are deliberately targeting civilian infrastructure, including a university, schools, high-rise residential blocks, hospitals and places of worship.

They are using white phosphorus munitions. This war crime, unlike their lies of decapitated babies, is true and has been confirmed by the UN. Palestinians in the West Bank are also being slaughtered. In July, the IDF carried out a murderous bombing of the Jenin refugee camp in the West Bank. A f**king refugee camp.

What the Zionists' are perpetrating is absolutely evil. These are crimes against humanity. And this has as been going on for 75 years. The state calling itself 'Israel' is in violation of more UN resolutions than all other nations put together. It is an an apartheid state ruled by nazis.

Call this an 'anti-Semitic' 'rant' if you want, but how any human being can attempt to draw any sort of moral equivalence between this wealthy Western-backed occupying colonialist regime with fighter jets, attack helicopters, gun boats, advanced drones, submarines, tanks, GPS guided projectiles, incendiary munitions, long range ballistic missiles and nuclear warheads, and its impoverished, dispossessed victims in Palestine, trying, largely impotently, to resist using, until recently, only crude homemade rockets and throwing stones, simply defies belief.

In fact, it's a truly despicable position to take.

[sbgawa]

Well that's certainly a considered attempt at seeing both sides of the situation.

[nigel-harps1954]

Well that's certainly a considered attempt at seeing both sides of the situation.

I'm not sure you gave a better balance within your own posting, to be fair. It all looked fairly one sided to me, from my reading.

[mark12345]

What can Hamas have expected to achieve by this action? There can only be one Israeli response with such a hawkish regime in charge. Who's influencing them and why?

Might someone be trying to galvanise domestic far right support given Netanhyu's unpopular changes to domestic judicial policy and/or his upcoming corruption case? (Conspiracy alert!!)

I also heard that US support for Israel will reduce supply of weapons available to support Ukraine. Any truth in this?

Support for Israel will reduce weapons for Ukraine - that is what's being said here in America. And that is ok with many people here as the billions of US tax payer dollars being sent to Ukraine are viewed as single handedly funding the war there. People feel there are a multitude of problems in America which the money could be spent on instead.

[mark12345]

In the last few days, the Zionist regime has carried out deadly attacks on the West Bank, Syria, Lebanon, (where it appears they have killed multiple members of the press - very probably deliberately), and Gaza, to whose people they are in the process of subjecting an utterly barbaric mediaeval-style siege, denying its population food, electricity, water and medicine. They've also threatened to bomb Egyptian convoys trying to send absolutely essential life-saving aid through the only port of entry they don't control.

This is what we are dealing with - a regional menace, 'democratic' or not. The people of Gaza are facing complete annihilation. This is genocide. The death toll in Gaza already exceeds that of the purported number of deaths caused by Hamas's actions. Many hundreds of children have been killed. Even before this latest round of blood letting, more Palestinian children had been killed in a single year than ever before. Half of Gaza's 2.3 million people are children.

The Zionist entity are deliberately targeting civilian infrastructure, including a university, schools, high-rise residential blocks, hospitals and places of worship.

They are using white phosphorus munitions. This war crime, unlike their lies of decapitated babies, is true and has been confirmed by the UN. Palestinians in the West Bank are also being slaughtered. In July, the IDF carried out a murderous bombing of the Jenin refugee camp in the West Bank. A f**king refugee camp.

What the Zionists' are perpetrating is absolutely evil. These are crimes against humanity. And this has as been going on for 75 years. The state calling itself 'Israel' is in violation of more UN resolutions than all other nations put together. It is an an apartheid state ruled by nazis.

Call this an 'anti-Semitic' 'rant' if you want, but how any human being can attempt to draw any sort of moral equivalence between this wealthy Western-backed occupying colonialist regime with fighter jets, attack helicopters, gun boats, advanced drones, submarines, tanks, GPS guided projectiles, incendiary munitions, long range ballistic missiles and nuclear warheads, and its impoverished, dispossessed victims in Palestine, trying, largely impotently, to resist using, until recently, only crude homemade rockets and throwing stones, simply defies belief.

In fact, it's a truly despicable position to take.

You go into a lot of detail about the horrible situation currently going on in Gaza. And I like you abhor the loss of life of innocent people particularly children. But it has to be said that at one point on the morning of October 7 there was peace and quiet and even music in the air in the region. But then the rockets started flying and the machine guns started firing. If those things had not happened we would not be having this conversation right now.

[CraftyToePoke]

Support for Israel will reduce weapons for Ukraine - that is what's being said here in America. And that is ok with many people here as the billions of US tax payer dollars being sent to Ukraine are viewed as single handedly funding the war there. People feel there are a multitude of problems in America which the money could be spent on instead.

But wherever they are sending it won't be spent on American problems if its being sent abroad. Money or aid or weaponry by definition, is unavailable to American citizens if its sent to Ukraine or Israel or Ballyhaunis itself.

[CraftyToePoke]

So what is people's read on here of the IDF massed troops delay on the edge of Gaza which is now into week three ?

They will know who / where and how etc, this isn't something they wouldn't have planned for. They can pound the place from the air any old day, they know it at best inconveniences Hamas temporarily only. They have never had more reason, and backing to do as they said they would, but thus far they haven't gone in. I don't think its the hostages because the air strikes endanger those anyway. I see today settlements near Lebanon have been told to evacuate, so are they worried or have they been threatened with a regional backlash & are having to rethink ? Is it Western / EU arm around the shoulder support depending on restraint ?

I saw an Israeli official on BBC just now use the phrase, if and when in relation to the ground offensive.

I think it will still happen, I just wonder if it will be on the scale and duration they would have initially liked it to be & I definitely didn't think over two weeks later it would still be pending.

[pineapple stu]

A slightly different Israel story in the papers today - an Israeli software company in Dublin have fired an Irish employee for making anti-Israel comments on social media. Apparently it generated a backlash from Israeli staff and customers and wasn't seen as inclusive (but of course no mention of Palestinians).

But the company's internal communications was full of political (ie pro-Israel) messages apparently, and even tips from an Israeli advertising agency for staff to tailor their own pro-Israel social media messages. It's a really worrying insight into the cult-like Israeli way of thinking (https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2023/10/24/internal-wix-chat-encouraged-staff-to-support-israels-narrative-in-hamas-conflict/).

Varadkar is encouraging the employee to sue for unfair dismissal. Hopefully the employee realises she's better away from that place. This looks like a story that has legs in it though.

[CraftyToePoke]

They're having a right good tilt at UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres today also, they want him gone too. So what chance would that employee have stood. His speech the one they want him to fall on his sword for, said the events of October 7th although unjustifiable in any way, did not happen in a vacuum.

Pretty accurate, one might have thought but no. Not to Israel.

[John83]

I think that's shameful. When they reduce the dialogue to supporting them unequivocably - to the point of sycophancy - or they'll try to get you fired, that should be resisted on principle.

[dahamsta]

The Israeli government is extremely aggressive in their words and actions, it clearly rubs off on their people.

[Trequartista20]

You go into a lot of detail about the horrible situation currently going on in Gaza. And I like you abhor the loss of life of innocent people particularly children. But it has to be said that at one point on the morning of October 7 there was peace and quiet and even music in the air in the region. But then the rockets started flying and the machine guns started firing. If those things had not happened we would not be having this conversation right now.

You seek to condemn the oppressed for resisting their genocidal destruction?

There is never peace in the occupied Palestine. Their people face daily violence, death and humiliation.

[Trequartista20]

Hamas should ‘go to Ireland or deserts’ and using nuclear bomb on Gaza an option, says Israel minister:


An Israeli minister has said Hamas should ‘go to Ireland or the deserts’ and that dropping a nuclear bomb on Gaza is an option, as the Israel-Hamas war enters its fifth week.

Heritage minister Amichai Eliyahu of the Otzma Yehudit party is quoted by the Times of Israel as saying in an interview that the Palestinian people “can go to Ireland or deserts, the monsters in Gaza should find a solution by themselves”, adding that those who wave a Palestinian or Hamas flag “shouldn’t continue living on the face of the earth”.

It quotes him saying that dropping a nuclear bomb on the Gaza Strip “is one of the possibilities”, and that humanitarian aid to the population should be restricted, saying “we wouldn’t hand the Nazis humanitarian aid. There is no such thing as uninvolved civilians in Gaza

https://www.irishtimes.com/world/middle-east/2023/11/05/hamas-should-go-to-ireland-or-deserts-and-using-nuclear-bomb-on-gaza-an-option-says-israel-minister/

[seanfhear]

Pretty obvious that Israel would very easily Nuke all of its enemies if it felt threatened enough.

[samhaydenjr]

Hamas should ‘go to Ireland or deserts’ and using nuclear bomb on Gaza an option, says Israel minister:



https://www.irishtimes.com/world/middle-east/2023/11/05/hamas-should-go-to-ireland-or-deserts-and-using-nuclear-bomb-on-gaza-an-option-says-israel-minister/

Now in this charming echo of our history, is Ireland Hell or Connacht?

And speaking of dumb verbal contributions to this horrible conflict... James McClean. Posted Sinn Fein's call for the Israeli ambassador to be removed from office and added "Kick him Out!... In fact, volley the p***k out!"... Israel's ambassador to Ireland, Dana Erlich, is a woman.

https://www.balls.ie/football/james-mcclean-israel-palestine-576910