Palestinian Israeli Conflict.

[John83]

It was a complement, in the form of a reference to a 200 year old poem. Yeah, I don't know what he was thinking either.

[Razors left peg]

It was a complement, in the form of a reference to a 200 year old poem. Yeah, I don't know what he was thinking either.

I got the poem part... complement I'm not so sure? :)

[seanfhear]

If Winter comes, can Spring be far behind?Is Spring behind or in-front though ? !

[Neish]

Hamas for what-ever reasons did not have the intelligence to Not go too far ! ~ ~ I could have told you what would happen to, GAZA / Palestinian Cause, as soon as October 7th happened.

It may Not be very nice to have an understanding of these things, and the way they will play out ~ But reality is reality all the same !

We all agree Hamas are fanatical murderous scum (well anybody with a reasonable mind does) so yes there you are correct but your reason otherwise is ludicrous .

You're using both the IRA and October 7th well Israel's response to October 7th is the equivalent to the British establishment having bombed the bogside are of Derry then cut off, medical supplies, water & electric, internet access and blocked free movement of the people of that area in response to the Warrenpoint ambush

[SkStu]

I got the poem part... complement I'm not so sure? :)

Stalking is kind of a compliment if you think about it.

[seanfhear]

We all agree Hamas are fanatical murderous scum (well anybody with a reasonable mind does) so yes there you are correct but your reason otherwise is ludicrous .

You're using both the IRA and October 7th well Israel's response to October 7th is the equivalent to the British establishment having bombed the bogside are of Derry then cut off, medical supplies, water & electric, internet access and blocked free movement of the people of that area in response to the Warrenpoint ambushThere would have been some British quite in favour of doing that !

[Razors left peg]

There would have been some British quite in favour of doing that !

It wouldn't have made it right though Sean, just like there's no excuse for what Israel are doing now

[SkStu]

I find this a really interesting development...

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4g71lk09npo


Hundreds of people have taken part in the largest anti-Hamas protest in Gaza since the war with Israel began, taking to the streets to demand the group step down from power.

Masked Hamas militants, some armed with guns and others carrying batons, intervened and forcibly dispersed the protesters, assaulting several of them.

Videos shared widely on social media by activists typically critical of Hamas showed young men marching through the streets of Beit Lahia, northern Gaza on Tuesday, chanting "out, out, out, Hamas out".

[Neish]

I find this a really interesting development...

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4g71lk09npo

This is good to see but unless Israel makes a significant change to the brutal way they treat the Palestinian then the only thing replacing Hamas will be groups every bit if not more extreme

[osarusan]

Louis Theroux's new documentary The Settlers lays bare the combination of deluded divine belief in superiority and maniacal hatred of Palestinians that has fuelled Israeli settlement of Palestinian land.

[Neish]

Louis Theroux's new documentary The Settlers lays bare the combination of deluded divine belief in superiority and maniacal hatred of Palestinians that has fuelled Israeli settlement of Palestinian land.

Great documentary, that Daneilla Weiss told was truly hideous saying its normal to only care for "you own people" and not others

[Neish]

Louis Theroux's new documentary The Settlers lays bare the combination of deluded divine belief in superiority and maniacal hatred of Palestinians that has fuelled Israeli settlement of Palestinian land.

Just noticed this is being repeated on BBC2 at 11:30pm tonight

[Razors left peg]

The back lash from Kneecaps performance at Coachella has been something else. The focus on trying to censor them instead of addressing the genocide that Kneecap are trying to highlight is a symptom of how fcuked up the media has become.

[SkStu]

Overall I agree. The campaign against them to cancel and punish is concerted and obvious and misses the real and correct message they are trying to portray. And it’s frightening how quick so many in the media lined up to essentially defend Israel.

But I don’t think they’ve (incl DanL) actually handled the backlash that well. This thing about taking comments out of context doesn’t wash with me. There’s no real alternative acceptable context to “Up Hamas/Hezbollah” and “The only good Tory is a dead Tory/kill your local MP”. They’d have been better off saying it was “heat of the moment and regretful and not what we believe but the real issue is…” or totally doubling down on what they truly believe and their NI experience. I’d happily buy into either.

[osarusan]

Absolutely, there's an attempt to drag up any muck that could be found.

The problem is that those doing the digging found some pretty ugly muck.

[Razors left peg]

Overall I agree. The campaign against them to cancel and punish is concerted and obvious and misses the real and correct message they are trying to portray. And it’s frightening how quick so many in the media lined up to essentially defend Israel.

But I don’t think they’ve (incl DanL) actually handled the backlash that well. This thing about taking comments out of context doesn’t wash with me. There’s no real alternative acceptable context to “Up Hamas/Hezbollah” and “The only good Tory is a dead Tory/kill your local MP”. They’d have been better off saying it was “heat of the moment and regretful and not what we believe but the real issue is…” or totally doubling down on what they truly believe and their NI experience. I’d happily buy into either.

Is it really any different to the Wolfe Tones singing Up The Ra?

I was at the gig in Coachella, they had the whole crowd chanting Free Free Palestine. Thats the message that should be focused on, not trying to dig through everything that they've said in the past. Probably not a great look chanting Up Hamas, but Id rather that right now than the message that Israel can get away with murdering innocents on a mass scale.

[KevinJBarry]

Is it really any different to the Wolfe Tones singing Up The Ra?

I was at the gig in Coachella, they had the whole crowd chanting Free Free Palestine. Thats the message that should be focused on, not trying to dig through everything that they've said in the past. Probably not a great look chanting Up Hamas, but Id rather that right now than the message that Israel can get away with murdering innocents on a mass scale.

No , the wolfetones should be cancelled too

[Razors left peg]

No , the wolfetones should be cancelled too

Its been tried!

[SkStu]

As I said, I actually agree with you. But you live by the sword, you die by the sword. They’ve used their platform to put themselves in the middle of a political/humanitarian issue and all I’m saying is i don’t think they’ve actually handled the backlash well. Their defense is mixed messaging at best (which they’ve engaged in before) and it’s not serving them well. Come clean, apologize for the past comments and then make your point. It’s what I think would land best. That’s all.

And I think it’s a little different to Up the Ra. Not for you and I maybe but for anyone who was murdered by the IRA it is offensive. Declan Rice, Irish ladies etc all more recent than the Wolfe Tones - and there was backlash, albeit more muted and it passed quickly which suggests it is seen as different by the general public and more in the past.

Anyway, not looking to get you all riled up on this. We’re on the same page overall, I just wish they’d pick a ditch and would’ve handled it differently.

[Neish]

Overall I agree. The campaign against them to cancel and punish is concerted and obvious and misses the real and correct message they are trying to portray. And it’s frightening how quick so many in the media lined up to essentially defend Israel.

But I don’t think they’ve (incl DanL) actually handled the backlash that well. This thing about taking comments out of context doesn’t wash with me. There’s no real alternative acceptable context to “Up Hamas/Hezbollah” and “The only good Tory is a dead Tory/kill your local MP”. They’d have been better off saying it was “heat of the moment and regretful and not what we believe but the real issue is…” or totally doubling down on what they truly believe and their NI experience. I’d happily buy into either.

Agree it was a rather stupid comment to make when they know the spotlight is on them.

In saying that I do find it quite ridiculous how the media are so focused on a couple throw away comments made by members of a musical group, yet more or less completely ignore countless much. much more vile comment being constantly made by prominent Israeli political & military figures

[Neish]

Just read on The Guardian website that the home of Issa Amro who featured in Theroux documentary "The Settlers" was raided by at first Israeli military then a group of settlers. Seems to nothing more than pure vengance. See link for more https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2025/may/05/palestinian-activists-home-raided-by-israeli-soldiers-for-appearing-in-louis-theroux-documentary

[Dermobohs]

And it goes on and on. Since the last postHUNDREDS of people, not terrorists, people have been murdered by Israel, the USA and Britain.
Genocide, Holocaust, it doesn’t matter if the victims aren’t white apparently

[The Fly]

I used to say it in jest but the best thing that the Palestinian people could do is have a mass conversion to Christianity.

[seanfhear]

I used to say it in jest but the best thing that the Palestinian people could do is have a mass conversion to Christianity.
Islam certainly hasn't done much for them ~ Or Islamic Countries either !

[The Fly]

Islam certainly hasn't done much for them ~ Or Islamic Countries either !
I’m not talking about what Islam has or hasn’t done for them. What I mean is that the American (and European) reaction to the conflict would probably be very different.

[seanfhear]

I’m not talking about what Islam has or hasn’t done for them. What I mean is that the American (and European) reaction to the conflict would probably be very different.I had taken that in to consideration, but decided to add my own thoughts to your point ~ Obviously your points stands on its own ~ And, mine may also be worthy of debate, particularly how little help, that Islamic Countries give to the Palestinians !

[pineapple stu]

I’m not talking about what Islam has or hasn’t done for them. What I mean is that the American (and European) reaction to the conflict would probably be very different.
I don't think the European reaction to the conflict is based on religion. I think it's based more on money. Possibly embarrassment at what happened in World War II also.

Judaism has a long connection with old money in America, so it carries a lot of influence in the halls of power there.

Either way, the support it gets is increasingly baffling.

The Saudis put a fair bit of money into Palestine afaik (which is unfortunate as they also push their nasty brand of conservative Islam on them too.)

[The Fly]

I don't think the European reaction to the conflict is based on religion. I think it's based more on money. Possibly embarrassment at what happened in World War II also.

The European reaction is much less important, hence the brackets. But I mentioned it in response to Dermaboh's claim about skin colour being a factor in the ongoing suffering over there. And it's a claim that probably has some, or a lot of, merit to it.


Judaism has a long connection with old money in America, so it carries a lot of influence in the halls of power there.
It does, but as a counterweight to a suffering 'Christian' nation I'm not sure how far that influence would go. This is all a kind of speculative counterfactual nonsense anyway.


Either way, the support it gets is increasingly baffling.
With Trump's latest round of deal making in the Middle East that support may begin to wane a bit, but who knows?

[pineapple stu]

I don't know about the skin colour claim to be honest. It's a very popular idea in the social media age to be obsessed by skin colour, but I don't think there's much real evidence for it here. I guess in wars you have to "other" the enemy and things like skin colour and religion are handy ways of doing that, but it doesn't necessarily answer the question of why there's so much support for Israel in the first place - and I think the US is supporting Israel rather than opposing Palestine here. And the US has backed Israel for decades - literally back to its inception, when it was the first country to recognise Israel.

I do think money is a big factor - Israel buys lots of US weapons for example; gotta keep those sales pipelines open. Possibly there's an element that having reliable weapons orders keeping R&D sharp is an extension of the cold war; Russia supports Syria because it buys lots of Russian arms for example.

Interestingly, I wonder how different the reaction to Russia would have been Poland, the Czechs and Sweden not openly boycotted them in the World Cup playoffs. Russia also provides a lot of wealth to the west (in terms of financial investments from the oligarchs) and also heating fuel, which is fairly important. But the boycott really called FIFA's bluff, and then other sports really had to follow, and there's been no valid reason for going back since then.

[The Fly]

I don't know about the skin colour claim to be honest. It's a very popular idea in the social media age to be obsessed by skin colour, but I don't think there's much real evidence for it here.
It's an intuitive thing I suppose, and something which will therefore vary from person to person; from a non-existent feeling in some to a very potent one in others.

The evidence for it is the mere fact of it. Palestinians are Middle-Eastern people with brown skin, almost all of whom are Muslim (whether that be culturally so or strict adherents, and everything in-between). They're 'othered' by default in other words.



I guess in wars you have to "other" the enemy and things like skin colour and religion are handy ways of doing that, but it doesn't necessarily answer the question of why there's so much support for Israel in the first place - and I think the US is supporting Israel rather than opposing Palestine here. And the US has backed Israel for decades - literally back to its inception, when it was the first country to recognise Israel.

I do think money is a big factor - Israel buys lots of US weapons for example; gotta keep those sales pipelines open. Possibly there's an element that having reliable weapons orders keeping R&D sharp is an extension of the cold war; Russia supports Syria because it buys lots of Russian arms for example.
Money, strategic interests in the region, arms sales etc explains a lot of the support. Cultural factors also feature...I had a conversation with a Baptist friend of mine the other day who quoted from Deuteronomy saying that the Israelites are God's chosen people. He shares the same forebears as a lot of the supporters of Israel in the US do.

Interest in the region will never wane either because that region is the crucible for the Abrahamic religions. It's not just that there's history there. It is History in a sense. I've often wondered if the whiteness of the Israelis themselves plays a part in the interest, relative to other conflict zones across the world. The comparative openness of Israeli society also factors into our knowledge of what's going on, which some may find a bit of a pill to swallow. So...there's a whole kaleidoscope of stuff going on there.

[pineapple stu]

The Palestinians are certainly "othered" - and I find the Israelis inherently racist too. I know that's a generalisation, but in this case it seems to be true. Levison Wood, Simon Reeve and Dervla Murphy are among those who've travelled there and come away with barely a good word to say about the Israelis in general. And Louis Theroux obviously. (I've forgotten what his dad, Paul, said when he was there in the 90s - must read that one again, but I remember lots of guns)

But people will start wars for reasons other than skin colour - Russia in Ukraine the obvious example. The Brits here. The Rwandan genocide or the Saudis in Yemen if you want to mix up colour. I think skin colour can be a difference in the Middle East without necessarily being the root cause.

Religion/history in the area is certainly a big contributing factor, yeah. In that regard this is just a modern Crusade.

But I think the US (and the Europeans, by extension) would have supported Israel whoever it picked on. I think the Israelis are racist, but that doesn't necessarily explain the support they get. I can't imagine what goes on in world leaders' heads. Are they convinced by Israeli PR? Or are they playing a bigger game (or Game, I guess, to parallel your post!)?

[SkStu]

None of the following is intended to give Israel a free pass on the genocide that is now undoubtedly being committed - but - doesn't the matter of support for Palestine have a lot to do with the fact that it is borderline impossible to support a state that is led by a terrorist organization - especially one whose mandate is to destroy a long time supposed ally of the West? I think it has far more to do with that obstacle than it does with specifically race or religion. All that said, the natural question then becomes how can they support a murderous, genocidal regime whose land grabs have been no less illegal than, say, Russia? The West needs to dramatically rethink and shift its relationship with and support for the Israeli state. Early days, I felt that Israel was justified in its response to the October massacre but any support i had then petered out pretty damn quickly. Unforgivable what is happening there.

[Neish]

Islam certainly hasn't done much for them ~ Or Islamic Countries either !

I feel a Life of Brian sketch in the making

https://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/01/29/muslim.inventions/index.html

And in the first 6-12 months of Israels aggression most aid for the Palestinians was coming from or through UAE, Egypt, Qatar & Jordan