Palestinian Israeli Conflict.

[CraftyToePoke]

About a month away from it bring a year since the last post on this thread & Bidens very public early summer big push for peace ending in an overall settlement in the region has instead seen Israel blasting Beirut this weekend, because razing Gaza was obviously just a warm up. Done with largely US weapons & without bothering to give the Americans a heads up.

The, We Stand With Israel merchants all round Europe are on a different page now & looking a bit daft & Bidens administration, well has Washington ever looked weaker in its special relationship with Israel ? Seemingly not an ounce of influence over Netanyahu.

I said early on in this thread I felt the initial show of support for Israel was because the world was scared of what Israel would do next.

[seanfhear]

About a month away from it bring a year since the last post on this thread & Bidens very public early summer big push for peace ending in an overall settlement in the region has instead seen Israel blasting Beirut this weekend, because razing Gaza was obviously just a warm up. Done with largely US weapons & without bothering to give the Americans a heads up.

The, We Stand With Israel merchants all round Europe are on a different page now & looking a bit daft & Bidens administration, well has Washington ever looked weaker in its special relationship with Israel ? Seemingly not an ounce of influence over Netanyahu.

I said early on in this thread I felt the initial show of support for Israel was because the world was scared of what Israel would do next.
If you have America's backing you can do as you please.

[John83]

I don't see their endgame here. A decade or three from now, or a century, or two, or however many it takes, they're getting driven into the sea. No moral judgement there (that's another conversation), but some day the US will be weak or distracted and Israel won't have the teeth to keep the wolves from the door. You can't fight everyone forever, surely, and they're not exactly courting other outcomes.

[seanfhear]

I don't see their endgame here. A decade or three from now, or a century, or two, or however many it takes, they're getting driven into the sea. No moral judgement there (that's another conversation), but some day the US will be weak or distracted and Israel won't have the teeth to keep the wolves from the door. You can't fight everyone forever, surely, and they're not exactly courting other outcomes.
Maybe ~ They intend to annihilate all of their enemies now ( or certainly a lot of them )

From the Israeli's point of view ~ Now is the time to do it.

[CraftyToePoke]

How many Irish did Britain imprison, inter, deport, starve, execute, collude to murder ? Did it work? It just grew back more determined.

[seanfhear]

How many Irish did Britain imprison, inter, deport, starve, execute, collude to murder ? Did it work? It just grew back more determined.
Perhaps ~ The Israeli's are going to make sure that they kill enough to put a stop to that sort of thing ~ Maybe they are just beginning ~ ~ They can do as they please as they have the backing of America.

[dahamsta]

Russia is emboldening them, IMHO. They see Putin getting away with literal murder and fancy their chances. They want a war, just like Russia, and they don't care if they drag the rest of us into it.

[joey B]

Hard to disagree with this from Jordan's foreign minister, perpetual war is all the fanatical government in Israel want and offer, zero solutions to any of it.....

1841091218790351126

[sbgawa]

If Iran and its mullahs are on one side its easy enough for me to side with a democratic Israel. Can't remember the last time an Israeli suicide Bomber blew up a concert or bus.
That being said its pointless as unless they kill every last Palestinian/ Arab they are only killing x number to be replaced by the next lot.
It's as close to a no possible solution as there is. At least ourselves and the Brits when we are at it had enough in common that in the end we could live together....hard to see that ever happening in the middle east.

[nigel-harps1954]

If Iran and its mullahs are on one side its easy enough for me to side with a democratic Israel. Can't remember the last time an Israeli suicide Bomber blew up a concert or bus.
That being said its pointless as unless they kill every last Palestinian/ Arab they are only killing x number to be replaced by the next lot.

No harm, but this is an utterly mental opinion.

[sbgawa]

What's mental? I see no solution, do you? Genuinely can you see the Arabs and Israelis living happily together in the future?

[pineapple stu]

If Iran and its mullahs are on one side its easy enough for me to side with a democratic Israel. Can't remember the last time an Israeli suicide Bomber blew up a concert or bus.
I mean, they've killed what - 40k in Palestine in the last year? Another few hundred in Lebanon already?

Do you not think that's slightly more than your suicide bomber (abhorrent and all as that is)?

[sbgawa]

Thats kind of my point though its pointless as even if every one of them was a Hamas terrorist which they werent they will be replaced straight away and how much nearer is the middle east to peace.
I stand by my comment on the mad mullahs , you cant be Gay there its still punishable by death , woman have zero rights and can be married off at 13, the Iranian people are under the thumb of a bunch of fanatical nutters and no chance of getting rid of them through elections
I think if the Countries surrounding Israel were democracies peace would be possible but as long as those countries are ruled by dictat there will never be peace.

[pineapple stu]

Conservative Islam is a blight on the planet, sure.

Lebanon - which Israel is now attacking - is a democracy.

Israel is a democracy and they're one of the greatest shower of *****s in the world the last 30 years or so

Ultimately the key issue is Israel bombs, slaughters and even invades at will. I don't see why you're looking to avoid that fact

[dahamsta]

I can't stand the government of Israel, I'd wee on Netanhayu if he were within reach, and Mossad has to be one of the worst "intelligence" agencies out there, but....

....jesus, the pagers and walkie talkies thing was an amazing piece of supply chain f*ckery, wasn't it?

[osarusan]

No harm, but this is an utterly mental opinion.

Tbh, I'd say that blindly applying reductive positions such as 'democracy beats theocracy' without any examination of the specific context does massive amounts of harm.

[Buller]

Conservative Islam is a blight on the planet, sure.

Lebanon - which Israel is now attacking - is a democracy.



Was Lebanon perhaps attacking Israel with rockets for the last year?

[sbgawa]

Conservative Islam is a blight on the planet, sure.

Lebanon - which Israel is now attacking - is a democracy.

Israel is a democracy and they're one of the greatest shower of *****s in the world the last 30 years or so

Ultimately the key issue is Israel bombs, slaughters and even invades at will. I don't see why you're looking to avoid that fact

It could be said they would hardly have invaded if it wasnt for Oct 7th but on the other hand youll have people that will say October 7th happened because of A.N.Other event and it is the Israelis fault.
I dont think ive ever met anyone who having decided who they support has changed their mind based on any logical arguement so lets not go there.

My position is i look at how the people in the countries involved live.
The Iranian people live in a society where any attempt to change has been ruthlessly put down, where if you are gay u could be put to death , where woman have no rights.
Israel is a democracy where people live freely (including the Arabs who live there) and vote in free and fair elections.

Hence i ignore the whataboutery of who is at fault and support the side that more clearly reflects my view of the world.

It might mean that Israel is the tallest dwarf of the two or indeed the bald man who wins my vote for the comb but i just cant see myself siding with people who are so strongly agasint what i see as basic things to live by.
Doesnt mean im a cheerleader for bombing people by either side just that instinctivly i am siding with people who i can relate to on things other than war.

I do find it amusing when you see young people supporting the countries opposed to Israel while also voicing their concerns for equal rights for woman and LGBT people, although when i was young everything seemed simple to me as well. Would be highly amusing if these people decided to have a pride parade through central Tehran or indeed pretty much anywhere in the middle east, it might make them think about their support for despotic regimes.

[SkStu]

I think I have said it before and I stand behind it still. What we are dealing with here is a massive pair of c*nts. One that doesn't use the power they wield responsibly and inflicts atrocities without repercussions, the other that does all the evil things that sbgawa listed.

[pineapple stu]

The Iranian people live in a society where any attempt to change has been ruthlessly put down, where if you are gay u could be put to death , where woman have no rights.
So I agree with stuff like that - but you're using it to back Israel in this conflict

That's an absurd level of simplification

Israel is a terrorist state and needs to be condemned as such. It is possible to have that view while also not looking the government of Iran.

[sbgawa]

I think I have said it before and I stand behind it still. What we are dealing with here is a massive pair of c*nts. One that doesn't use the power they wield responsibly and inflicts atrocities without repercussions, the other that does all the evil things that sbgawa listed.

next time i need someone to better say in 10 words what ive just said in a hundred ill send you a PM :)
Which one is the taller dwarf ?

[sbgawa]

So I agree with stuff like that - but you're using it to back Israel in this conflict

That's an absurd level of simplification

Israel is a terrorist state and needs to be condemned as such. It is possible to have that view while also not looking the government of Iran.

i dont agree its an oversimplefication.
What Israel is doing is wrong, while it would have been unreasonable to expect any country to have not responded to 1200 of its people being killed and raped plus taken hostage the protracted natire of the response is self defeating and ultimately pointless as they cant win, just like the Brits could never win here.
Calling Israel a terrorist state is fine if you like but the fact remains we have a lot more in common with Israel than we do with Iran or indeed most of the middleeast who hate the west and the values we believe in.
If there has to be a winner i would rather it was Israel but that is an oversimplefication as there simply wont be one it will just rumble on until the mad mullahs and dictators that rule the middle east are gone and the people are in charge ratehr than religious nutters and dictators.

I cant get past the fact that the people cheering on Iran firing missiles at Israel are supporting a country who if several friends of mine where there they would likely be in jail or killed.
The antipathy towards Israel is strongest amongst those who would be the first to throw stones at anyone who questioned our western value system.

You have enough sense to make a logical arguement and have a considered position for most of the people its just the trendy thing to do.
Bohs support Palastine...enough said :) couldnt resist that

[seanfhear]

I think I have said it before and I stand behind it still. What we are dealing with here is a massive pair of c*nts. One that doesn't use the power they wield responsibly and inflicts atrocities without repercussions, the other that does all the evil things that sbgawa listed.
The only way to make much progress in such conflicts ~ ~ Is, if a third strong force attacks both of them equally ~ ~ And the first two have to ally to take on this third force !

Tis the way of humans !

[pineapple stu]

i dont agree its an oversimplefication.
What Israel is doing is wrong, while it would have been unreasonable to expect any country to have not responded to 1200 of its people being killed and raped plus taken hostage the protracted natire of the response is self defeating and ultimately pointless as they cant win, just like the Brits could never win here.
Calling Israel a terrorist state is fine if you like but the fact remains we have a lot more in common with Israel than we do with Iran or indeed most of the middleeast who hate the west and the values we believe in.
If there has to be a winner i would rather it was Israel but that is an oversimplefication as there simply wont be one it will just rumble on until the mad mullahs and dictators that rule the middle east are gone and the people are in charge ratehr than religious nutters and dictators.

I cant get past the fact that the people cheering on Iran firing missiles at Israel are supporting a country who if several friends of mine where there they would likely be in jail or killed.
The antipathy towards Israel is strongest amongst those who would be the first to throw stones at anyone who questioned our western value system.

You have enough sense to make a logical arguement and have a considered position for most of the people its just the trendy thing to do.
Bohs support Palastine...enough said :) couldnt resist that

Who's cheering on Iran launching missiles at Israel?

We have very little in common with Israel - they're a murderous genocidal state where an awful lot of people approve of what the country is doing and where any criticism is conveniently dismissed as anti-Semitism without any attempt to engage in discussion.

They've more in common with Nazi Germany than us.

Though interestingly the idea that Israel has more in common with the west than the Muslims do is one of the main tropes Israel push out in their social media propaganda (came to light in the Wix scandal last year for example)

[sidewayspasser]

I think there's no right side in this conflict. Each (Israel on one side, Hamas and Hezbollah on the other) would happily obliterate the other to extinction. And while Hamas/Hezbollah don't have the means to follow through with it, Israel is probably still held back somewhat by not wanting to completely lose support from the US and other Western countries.

[pineapple stu]

One thing to keep an eye on is public support for Israel in the US. it's always been very high, so supporting Israel helps at the booths. But lately there's a minority in favour of Israel for about the first time ever. If that keeps up, US policies may start to change.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disapprove-israeli-action-gaza.aspx

[sbgawa]

Who's cheering on Iran launching missiles at Israel?

We have very little in common with Israel - they're a murderous genocidal state where an awful lot of people approve of what the country is doing and where any criticism is conveniently dismissed as anti-Semitism without any attempt to engage in discussion.

They've more in common with Nazi Germany than us.

Though interestingly the idea that Israel has more in common with the west than the Muslims do is one of the main tropes Israel push out in their social media propaganda (came to light in the Wix scandal last year for example)

Do you feel you have more in common with the mad mullahs and Asad in Syria?

I'm happy with my choices.

[Acornvilla]

I find it impossible to find anything in common with a democracy that would indiscriminately murder tens of thousands of medics, journalists and civilians for a year straight. Let alone the apartheid, and *gestures at the last 60+ I don't know how many years*

It doesn't really matter what you think about fundamentalist Muslims, not all Arabs or Muslims are the same or hold the same beliefs for that matter, there are tons of innocent people with no say in this being murdered by a democracy that votes to do just that. Netanyahu is every bit as insane as Putin or any other tyrant you can think of throughout history. What Israel/US and any other enabler are doing is horrendous and shouldn't be allowed to happen. It will be looked upon with horror by future generations. As for young or lgbtq+ people supporting the Palestinian struggle, or any other group who you might think would hate them, you do not need to agree with someone's beliefs to think that they don't deserve to be murdered, people are capable of empathy and holding multiple positions at once.

[pineapple stu]

Do you feel you have more in common with the mad mullahs and Asad in Syria?

I'm happy with my choices.
How much do you feel you have in common with Hitler's Germany?

I'm any event, it's not an either-or option here. You can disapprove of both.

[John83]

Do you feel you have more in common with the mad mullahs and Asad in Syria?

I'm happy with my choices.
This isn't football. Why do you have to pick a side?

I like the people who are against blowing up children. I feel like that's safer ground than which genocidal ******* has more in common with me.

[sbgawa]

How much do you feel you have in common with Hitler's Germany?

I'm any event, it's not an either-or option here. You can disapprove of both.

Very little, slightly puzzled why you'd ask? But yes I do disapprove of both.

[sbgawa]

You don't have to but most people do pick a side no matter how reprehensible both parties are.
Most people in ireland on social media and in public seem to support the mad mullahs and their bag carriers , I don't get it but they are entitled to their opinions I suppose, just don't go live there.

[pineapple stu]

You don't see the similarities with two genocidal, expansionist, aggressive regime which have groomed a cult-like, unquestioning, belief in their stance among their population?

I'm not sure how well you understand this topic to be honest

[sbgawa]

I understand perfectly, you've chosen your side and you dont like my choice fair enough. Don't think we are going to change each others minds somehow. Hopefully things calm down soon

[John83]

I'm not sure how well you understand this topic to be honest
That kind of line just picks fights. This is a contentious enough issue without it.

[pineapple stu]

I understand perfectly, you've chosen your side and you dont like my choice fair enough. Don't think we are going to change each others minds somehow. Hopefully things calm down soon
But can you explain why you feel you've little in common with Nazi Germany but a lot in common with Israel, despite both being genocidal, expansionist, aggressive regime which have groomed a cult-like, unquestioning, belief in their stance among their population?

The Mad Mullah thing isn't an argument - or at least I could match it with a Mad Commie equivalent for the Nazis

[nigel-harps1954]

I just find it absurd that anyone in their right mind would support Israel here, given the terror, relentless bombing, murdering of children, families, women, doctors, students, and zero let up in the midst of it, ordering people to evacuate into makeshift campsites that are too small for the number of people, and then bombing those campsites.

And all of that is just tipping the iceberg.

There is zero justification for their acts. Zero. No amount of whataboutery or finger pointing justifies it.

[sbgawa]

I find it hard to believe that people would support the mad mullahs and dictators that have killed tens of thousands and despise us. I'll say for the last time I don't support killing anybody on either side but I'm just not comfortable with the generally anti Israeli stance people take in this country regardless of the nature or type of regimes on the other side. Condemning each side isn't good enough for most people. Also saying I can identify more with a democratic state that doesn't hate the west shouldn't be even slightly hard to understand. It doesn't mean I support killing people Jews or Arabs its just a simple statement of facts

[nigel-harps1954]

There's a literal genocide ongoing in Palestine and your response is to repeatedly throw out this "mad mullahs" jibe, and a frankly slightly racist undertone in your posting on the subject.

There's zero justification for what's going on. It's genocide.

[sbgawa]

I'm a racist now because I condemn killings on both sides but say I identify more with a democratic Israel that doesn't hate the western values I believe in compared to the other side.......
and im not throwing out the mad mullahs thing for no reason, maybe it annoys you but they are mad and lunatic oppressors of their own people and minorities and woman.
I dont identify with them at all even a litle bit, if that makes me racist in your eyes so be it.


I'm done.

[CraftyToePoke]

I'm done.

Probably for the best, because someone who puts forward Israel as at least being a democracy, whilst failing to connect that the Nazis / Hitler were democratically elected initially is a bit mad Ted.

That's before mulling the Mullahs madness.

[sbgawa]

Why don't you mull the mullah madness ? Nobody ever seems to. Doesn't suit the wokarati agenda.

Are you trying to suggest that the fact the Nazis were elected means that democracies are inherently worse then mullahs or dictators whom you seem to prefer. You should ask a few Iranians or Syrians how they feel about their leaders.

Embarressing

[CraftyToePoke]

Embarressing

Embarrassing spelling maybe.

& yes this football site populated by middle aged men with a very particular sphere of interest is a known hub of wokarati types. Of course it is.

[pineapple stu]

Why don't you mull the mullah madness ? Nobody ever seems to. Doesn't suit the wokarati agenda.
Because the Mad Mullahs aren't relevant in a thread wondering why the State of Israel has murdered more than 40k people in the last 12 months with no more than token condemnation internationally, especially when compared to Russia - who, let's be honest, are killing fewer people in Ukraine

[osarusan]

Are you trying to suggest that the fact the Nazis were elected means that democracies are inherently worse then mullahs or dictators whom you seem to prefer. You should ask a few Iranians or Syrians how they feel about their leaders.


Strawman nonsense.

[sbgawa]

The mad mullahs are running hamas and hesbulah or do you think otherwise?
The Russians have killed far more than 40000 in Ukraine btw but let's not let facts get in yhe way.

[sbgawa]

Strawman nonsense.

Lol u started it with your nonsense about yhe Nazis ,I never mentioned them.
Can I ask you who do you think are more like us the mullahs or the Israelis? I expect no answer or nonsense

[pineapple stu]

I mentioned the Nazis. I was curious why you associated with Israel so strongly despite the huge parallels with Nazi Germany. You still haven't really answered that

The question about "who's more like us" is utterly irrelevant anyway. And btw, the Hasidic Jews - a rapidly increasing demographic with special treatment in Israel - aren't that fond of the gays either

They're all lunatics. I associate with none of them

[sbgawa]

I don't associate with the nazis at all. Do you associate with the mullahs hamas hessbulah? Where would you rather your daughter or your gay friend grew up? Iran, Syria or Israel. I expect nothing but nonsense and deflection as there is only one answer.

[osarusan]

Lol u started it with your nonsense about yhe Nazis ,I never mentioned them.

Neither did I FFS.



Can I ask you who do you think are more like us the mullahs or the Israelis?
It's a bizarre way to evaluate things...'who is more like us'. You've said it more than once on this thread...that you take a side (your words) based on which country/people/system of governance is more like your own.

To explore that...if the USA were to invade Vietnam tomorrow to remove their one party socialist state structure and replace it with a multi-party democracic structure, would you support that? After all, the USA's preferred solution is more than likely closer to your ideals than the Vietnamese system.