Republic of Ireland V Latvia - Wednesday, 22nd March 2023 - Friendly

[SkStu]

Worth a look in a friendly though? It might be a bit soon but he’s proven in a league where McGrath was a total failure and he’s on the books of Aston Villa and, I believe, highly thought of. We’ll see true enough. Just not anytime soon.

[CraftyToePoke]

Ronan was on the books at Wolves, and for longer, got closer to the team too, it didn't amount to anything in the end. I see your point, we aren't good enough so why stick, keep twisting & seeing if we can improve, and you're right, just maybe in a window where France or similar aren't up next y'know.

[Razors left peg]

Considering we now have the squad now, as much as some want to argue over it, how would ye approach the 2 games?

If it was my choice Id be starting our team for the France game against Latvia and make changes after an hour. The time for experimentation is over, it's sh1t or get off the pot time and we should be trying to get as settled a team as possible in the next few games. I hope we have a bit better luck with injuries this campaign too, it felt like we were always missing a few players last time around.

Moving into match week I'm starting to get excited about the games. I'd love to be flying home for them, it's the one big thing I miss living so far away.

[CraftyToePoke]

If it was my choice Id be starting our team for the France game against Latvia and make changes after an hour.

So long as neither starting eleven or on the hour refreshments contain Browne, McGrath or McLean says you :) :)

Yeah, something like that it the likelihood I spose.

Idah is a doubt & Johnston won't be expected to feature majorly as its his first rodeo with us according to SK on RTE. Idah asked not to be left out while there's a chance.

[Razors left peg]

So long as neither starting eleven or on the hour refreshments contain Browne, McGrath or McLean says you :) :)


Don't forget our auld mate Jeff, we don't want to see him either...... but I've a feeling we might. France are a big team in midfield and our lads are mostly Hobbits. He could start Hendrick to add a bit of size in there.

[CraftyToePoke]

Don't forget our auld mate Jeff, we don't want to see him either...... but I've a feeling we might. France are a big team in midfield and our lads are mostly Hobbits. He could start Hendrick to add a bit of size in there.

He was desperate for Reading the other day, commentators even named him & one other specifically, said you can't bring what he brought in midfield & expect anything other than a beating. Several passages featured him twenty yards behind breaking opponents closing in on goal as he jogged in their general direction in his own time. Still, fully expect him to be involved but that's where we're at.

[Razors left peg]

I think he's awful, and agree that if he's involved we could be in trouble, but I can also see a potential rational for picking him.

[Snapshot]

Don't forget our auld mate Jeff, we don't want to see him either...... but I've a feeling we might. France are a big team in midfield and our lads are mostly Hobbits. He could start Hendrick to add a bit of size in there.


He was desperate for Reading the other day, commentators even named him & one other specifically, said you can't bring what he brought in midfield & expect anything other than a beating. Several passages featured him twenty yards behind breaking opponents closing in on goal as he jogged in their general direction in his own time. Still, fully expect him to be involved but that's where we're at.


I think he's awful, and agree that if he's involved we could be in trouble, but I can also see a potential rational for picking him.
His worst is pitiful but he also has played good games for Reading. Indeed Hendrick (4), Szmodics (5) and Sykes (5) have scored 14 goals to date, more than some of our futurist forwards. I'd worry more about Molumby. His tenacity and gutsy approach is admirable but being so outclassed would render him a red card waiting to happen.

[Fixer82]

I’m surprised at Brady’s omission. He’s been one of our best players the last few times he’s played

[Jd2793]

Considering we now have the squad now, as much as some want to argue over it, how would ye approach the 2 games?

If it was my choice Id be starting our team for the France game against Latvia and make changes after an hour. The time for experimentation is over, it's sh1t or get off the pot time and we should be trying to get as settled a team as possible in the next few games. I hope we have a bit better luck with injuries this campaign too, it felt like we were always missing a few players last time around.

Moving into match week I'm starting to get excited about the games. I'd love to be flying home for them, it's the one big thing I miss living so far away.


id be pretty disappointed if kenny used this game as another one for starting the first 11. Cullen shouldnt see the pitch IMO. Hes played loads with burnely, give him some time off and lets see someone else in his role. id like smallbone and sykes to get starts. ferguson in for 60 then take him off. wonder will kenny change formations given johnston is included? he sounds like an out and out wide player would be a bit silly to have him in one of the two no.10 positions. wouldnt mind seeing himself or ogbene out wide, never been a fan of ogbene when he has his back to goal up front.

[osarusan]

If we had a competent manager I'd be very confident of a draw at least but even with this one, a draw isn't out of the question.
This is just silly.

France were a 119th minute world class save away from being world champions. They're a side with quality all over the pitch we can only dream of. They are so superior that they could come to Dublin and win by 3 goals and it still wouldn't automatically be a terrible night for Kenny. There could still be positives in defeat. I'd even say the same about the Dutch, albeit to a lesser extent.

The idea that Kenny needs a good result against France isn't one I'd agree with myself. He needs solid performances against the French and the Dutch.

He needs results against Greece and Gibraltar.

[pineapple stu]

Considering we now have the squad now, as much as some want to argue over it, how would ye approach the 2 games?

If it was my choice Id be starting our team for the France game against Latvia
I think the games are too different for that. France we need to set up for minimal time on the ball, maybe backs to the wall defending, an outlet up front who can hold the ball up and so on.

If we set up that way against Latvia, we're in for a tedious 90 minutes cos they'll likely do similar. I'd rather use the Latvia game to work out why we can't take the game to smaller teams (Malta, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Gibraltar...(!))

[texidub]

I'm expecting nothing pointswise from the Frace game, no matter who the manager is. This will make a draw or a win all the more enjoyable. A draw would be an excellent result. As long there are bouts of fearlessness and ambition from the Irish team, I'll be happy. Looking forward to seeing Ferguson, in particular, but also Knight. Coleman has been playing well recently too. Cullen, of course. And Collins.

If I had to be rational about it, I'd say 2-0 France, but it's Patrick's Day today, the only day of the year that it's legal for Irishmen to have hope for the future, so I'm focusing on the notion that a young and inexperienced Irish team against the Almost World Champions(TM) is the kind of background story that sporting legends are made of. It's the hope that kills ya, so 1-0 Ireland.. a moment of brilliance from Ferguson prefered, but will take an OG from Benzema too.

[pineapple stu]

Well Benzema's retired, so I wouldn't hold out much hope of that! :p

[SkStu]

Considering we now have the squad now, as much as some want to argue over it, how would ye approach the 2 games?

I think I'd still come at the Latvia game quite open minded and play some lads that havent had much interaction with the squad to date or havent played much under Kenny. Would probably expect to see Doherty and Collins get at least 60 minutes to give them some game time. Same, maybe, for Omobamidele and O'Dowda. In midfield would be nice to see Smallbone and/or Sykes get a start and I'd agree with Jd about not worrying too much about game time for Cullen. Up top you'd be hoping to see Ferguson get a start.

For France, I'd probably go with something along the lines of what I posted in post #99 but with some tweaks in midfield and possibly Ferguson for Parrott.

[texidub]

Well Benzema's retired, so I wouldn't hold out much hope of that! :p

Proof that we have them rattled already! :)

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

This is just silly.

France were a 119th minute world class save away from being world champions. They're a side with quality all over the pitch we can only dream of. They are so superior that they could come to Dublin and win by 3 goals and it still wouldn't automatically be a terrible night for Kenny. There could still be positives in defeat. I'd even say the same about the Dutch, albeit to a lesser extent.

The idea that Kenny needs a good result against France isn't one I'd agree with myself. He needs solid performances against the French and the Dutch.

He needs results against Greece and Gibraltar.

This is about Ireland, not Kenny. Your whole post is about what's best for him. And it's not just you. There's an obsession with what Kenny needs to stay in the job rather than what's good for Ireland. He doesn't need results against Greece and Gibraltar. Ireland need results against them along with Holland and France. It's not very likely but we have a chance to qualify from this group. Never have we given up before a ball is kicked before this. We've got victories and draws against far better teams on paper than us before.

Some people might say they don't care about qualifying for major tournaments any more. Well, I'm not one of them and I think the majority of Irish fans aren't either. We go into a qualifying group looking to qualify, not aim for third. In a group like this, we look for the top team to win home and away against the second seed. So France to get 6 points off Holland. We sneak a point against France. We have one of those famous nights at home to Holland, try to knick a point away to them and then beat Greece and Gibraltar. I couldn't care less who the manager is, it could be Kenny, it could be anyone but that should be the aim and we've always held out some hope that we could achieve that. Yes, we'd need an element of luck but it's not impossible.

[osarusan]

All that can be asked of a manaer is that they maximise the resouces at their disposal.

I don't think that our resources give us a reasonab;e chance of beating or even drawing with France, so failure to do so doesn't automatically mean Kenny failed to maximise the resources (although the performance itself might indicate that).

I care about qualification. but I'm also (I believe) realistic about our chances of qualifying, which are very very limited given the top two seeds. I'm realistic abut whether we'll get what we need to qualify.


You said earlier you'd be confident of getting something from the French game if we had a better manager. I don't share that confidence, and tbh, I don't believe it. I think you are building up our supposed chances of getting something out of the France game just so you can say it's Kenny's fault if/when we don't get anything.

[Demesne Lad]

If Kenny was managing France, and had in his squad 3 players from Bayern Munich, 3 from Milan, 2 from Real Madrid and one each from Arsenal, Atletico Madrid, Barcelona, Borussia MG, Chelsea, Frankfurt, Liverpool, Lens, Leverkusen, Marseille, Monaco, Nice, Paris SG and West Ham, I'd be expecting him to deliver a comfortable win against Ireland.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

All that can be asked of a manaer is that they maximise the resouces at their disposal.

I don't think that our resources give us a reasonab;e chance of beating or even drawing with France, so failure to do so doesn't automatically mean Kenny failed to maximise the resources (although the performance itself might indicate that).

I care about qualification. but I'm also (I believe) realistic about our chances of qualifying, which are very very limited given the top two seeds. I'm realistic abut whether we'll get what we need to qualify.


You said earlier you'd be confident of getting something from the French game if we had a better manager. I don't share that confidence, and tbh, I don't believe it. I think you are building up our supposed chances of getting something out of the France game just so you can say it's Kenny's fault if/when we don't get anything.

No, it's Kenny's fault we have a tough draw and a 50/50 chance of getting a play off and that people are writing off our chances before we even begun but losing to France is the expected result. But losing against teams like France and all the top seeds we've played over the years is always the expected result. Yet we've only lost 4 home qualification matches since the Brian Kerr reign in 2005. 18 years. We punch above our weight and with a decent manager, we have the players to compete. We did before Kenny arrived and we will after he goes. Holland are no better than Denmark and Switzerland who we came very close to qualifying ahead of pre Kenny.

I want Kenny gone because he isn't maximising the resources available to him, we have a far less chance of qualifying for a major tournament because of results achieved under his term and he has shown he's not capable at this level. But probably the main reason I want him gone now is because it's all about him. People keep talking about what results he needs to save his job, what would be acceptable for him to continue. Kenny himself picks squads and team selections with saving his job in mind, the development of our players has been ignored. I want to go back to actually talking about our players and the quality they have instead of talking them down and targeting 3rd position. Kenny was supposed to be the man that brought positivity back but I've never seen Irish supporters so negative.

But I'll be cheering him on against France and in this group. I want this thing turned around and I don't care who does it. I don't think he's in any way capable but I will be delighted if I'm wrong. But if he doesn't then everyone needs to start putting Irish football first. It's far more important than one man.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

If Kenny was managing France, and had in his squad 3 players from Bayern Munich, 3 from Milan, 2 from Real Madrid and one each from Arsenal, Atletico Madrid, Barcelona, Borussia MG, Chelsea, Frankfurt, Liverpool, Lens, Leverkusen, Marseille, Monaco, Nice, Paris SG and West Ham, I'd be expecting him to deliver a comfortable win against Ireland.

If he was in charge of France against Ireland in 2009, would you expect a comfortable win with this team:

Lloris, Sagna, Gallas, Escude, Evra, Lassana Diarra, Alou Diarra, Gourcuff, Anelka, Gignac, Henry.
Subs: Mandanda, Govou, Benzema, Sissoko, Malouda, Squillaci

[DCWA]

If he was in charge of France against Ireland in 2009, would you expect a comfortable win with this team:

Lloris, Sagna, Gallas, Escude, Evra, Lassana Diarra, Alou Diarra, Gourcuff, Anelka, Gignac, Henry.
Subs: Mandanda, Govou, Benzema, Sissoko, Malouda, Squillaci

The answer to that frankly is no. That is way, way off their current squad.

[SkStu]

No, it's Kenny's fault we have a tough draw

Is it though? Seems unfair. We could equally have found ourselves in a group with Hungary, Israel, Greece and Gibraltar where we'd be having a totally different discussion. Would he get credit for that?

[Eirambler]

We could also have been second seeds if we had performed better in the Nations League. Especially in what was a relatively kind group in the circumstances. That's on Kenny - he absolutely ballsed up the first two games of that campaign in particular (and had another disaster in the last game, albeit we scraped home in that one), and that's why we are where we are now.

Yes, we could have got a kinder group as third seeds. But we could also have removed the issue entirely by performing in the Nations League. It was a case of Kenny's mistakes finally catching up with him unfortunately. Now he needs to figure out a way out of it, and quickly. First step - get a result at home to France.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Is it though? Seems unfair. We could equally have found ourselves in a group with Hungary, Israel, Greece and Gibraltar where we'd be having a totally different discussion. Would he get credit for that?

If he got us to second seeds he would have got us a far kinder draw and bucket loads of credit.

[elatedscum]

We could also have been second seeds if we had performed better in the Nations League. Especially in what was a relatively kind group in the circumstances.

Relatively kind group? Ukraine were the highest ranked team overall across League B. Look at the group after us (B2):

1st seed Iceland
2nd seed Russia (2 walkovers)
3rd seed Israel (could have been us)
4th seed Albania

Israel won the group and are now guaranteed a playoff

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

The answer to that frankly is no. That is way, way off their current squad.

Not really and Ireland managed to beat that team in France! So let's not paint this as impossible. They've drawn to Bosnia, Austria, Ukraine, lost to Denmark twice, all within the last couple of years.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Relatively kind group? Ukraine were the highest ranked team overall across League B. Look at the group after us (B2):

1st seed Iceland
2nd seed Russia (2 walkovers)
3rd seed Israel (could have been us)
4th seed Albania

Israel won the group and are now guaranteed a playoff

There was something big going on in Ukraine. You might have heard about it? Scotland won the group. Are they full of superstars? Instead of coming ahead of those 2, we came close to coming behind Armenia. Can anyone list the clubs their players play for?

[SkStu]

We could also have been second seeds if we had performed better in the Nations League. Especially in what was a relatively kind group in the circumstances. That's on Kenny - he absolutely ballsed up the first two games of that campaign in particular (and had another disaster in the last game, albeit we scraped home in that one), and that's why we are where we are now.

Yes, we could have got a kinder group as third seeds. But we could also have removed the issue entirely by performing in the Nations League. It was a case of Kenny's mistakes finally catching up with him unfortunately. Now he needs to figure out a way out of it, and quickly. First step - get a result at home to France.

I think we have to keep expectations a bit in check though, no? I took some time to go through the last 8 qualifying rounds to see where we usually fall. Out of the 8, we've been 3rd pot 6 times, once each in the 2nd and 4th pot. While performing better in the NL could have increased our chances, we would have had to have climbed 5 full spots in the rankings. Not many other managers have manage their way up to second ranking over that time period.

Below looks at (L-R) - tournament; seeding/pot; year of assessment; ranking at time of assessment (note that the ranking for Euros is different).

WC 2010 – 3rd pot (2007) – 35
Euro 2012 – 3rd seeds (2009) – 25*
WC 2014 – 3rd seeds (2011) – 33
Euro 2016 – 2nd seeds (2014) – 19*
WC 2018 – 4th seeds (2015) – 42
Euro 2020 – 3rd seeds (2018) – 23*
WC 2022 – 3rd seeds (2020) – 52
Euro 2024 – 3rd seeds (2022) – 26*


If he got us to second seeds he would have got us a far kinder draw and bucket loads of credit.

You're kind of missing the point I'm making is that the draw itself is luck, not management. Seeding makes a difference but see my note above.

[Eirambler]

Relatively kind group? Ukraine were the highest ranked team overall across League B. Look at the group after us (B2):

1st seed Iceland
2nd seed Russia (2 walkovers)
3rd seed Israel (could have been us)
4th seed Albania

Israel won the group and are now guaranteed a playoff

"In the circumstances". Ukraine were in the early stages of a war. In addition for the home game they played mostly a second string because they had just played a World Cup playoff. And we got the away leg at a neutral venue. Armenia were utter crap (and we still lost to them) and Scotland are no great shakes either. It was a handy enough group, we should have probably won it, or at an absolute minimum been top 2 with a high points total that would have got us in as second seeds and guaranteed a playoff. Instead it was a complete mess, in particular the first two games and the last one.

[paul_oshea]

Considering we now have the squad now, as much as some want to argue over it, how would ye approach the 2 games?

If it was my choice Id be starting our team for the France game against Latvia and make changes after an hour. The time for experimentation is over, it's sh1t or get off the pot time and we should be trying to get as settled a team as possible in the next few games. I hope we have a bit better luck with injuries this campaign too, it felt like we were always missing a few players last time around.

Moving into match week I'm starting to get excited about the games. I'd love to be flying home for them, it's the one big thing I miss living so far away.

I wouldn't be too down about it razor, there's lads much closer who don't fly home for it ; )

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

I think we have to keep expectations a bit in check though, no? I took some time to go through the last 8 qualifying rounds to see where we usually fall. Out of the 8, we've been 3rd pot 6 times, once each in the 2nd and 4th pot. While performing better in the NL could have increased our chances, we would have had to have climbed 5 full spots in the rankings. Not many other managers have manage their way up to second ranking over that time period.

Below looks at (L-R) - tournament; seeding/pot; year of assessment; ranking at time of assessment (note that the ranking for Euros is different).

WC 2010 – 3rd pot (2007) – 35
Euro 2012 – 3rd seeds (2009) – 25*
WC 2014 – 3rd seeds (2011) – 33
Euro 2016 – 2nd seeds (2014) – 19*
WC 2018 – 4th seeds (2015) – 42
Euro 2020 – 3rd seeds (2018) – 23*
WC 2022 – 3rd seeds (2020) – 52
Euro 2024 – 3rd seeds (2022) – 26*



You're kind of missing the point I'm making is that the draw itself is luck, not management. Seeding makes a difference but see my note above.

I was saying we got a tough draw because Kenny failed to reach his own expectation of winning the Nations League group. He came nowhere near.

[SkStu]

Ive made the same point a few times, i'll give it one more go :)

The draw is happening:
Scenario 1 (Ireland in 3rd pot): Hungary, Israel, Ireland, Greece, Gibraltar
Scenario 2 (Ireland in 2nd pot): Holland, Ireland, Ukraine, Greece, Gibraltar

Which of these would you prefer for qualification purposes? And which of these scenarios would be a matter of credit to the manager v. luck of the draw?

[JR89]

Scotland are second seeds and could well be battling it out with Georgia for third spot in the group.

[Eirambler]

They're also guaranteed a playoff. And their rivals for second, while I appreciate they have a reasonably well known striker in the squad, haven't qualified for a finals tournament in almost a quarter of a century.

[tetsujin1979]

Euro 2020?

[paul_oshea]

Is it though? Seems unfair. We could equally have found ourselves in a group with Hungary, Israel, Greece and Gibraltar where we'd be having a totally different discussion. Would he get credit for that?

It's Paddy's Day but I'm not drinking. I might need to drink some to make that sensible : D. Probability and statistics stu

[DCWA]

Not really and Ireland managed to beat that team in France! So let's not paint this as impossible. They've drawn to Bosnia, Austria, Ukraine, lost to Denmark twice, all within the last couple of years.

Yes, really.

However I do in general agree with the rest of your post. Whilst expecting nothing France do regularly have slip ups in qualifying and I am hoping they are feeling a bit of post WC fatigue… or something like that…

[SkStu]

It's Paddy's Day but I'm not drinking. I might need to drink some to make that sensible : D. Probability and statistics stu

You'll figure it out. I have confidence in you :)

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Ive made the same point a few times, i'll give it one more go :)

The draw is happening:
Scenario 1 (Ireland in 3rd pot): Hungary, Israel, Ireland, Greece, Gibraltar
Scenario 2 (Ireland in 2nd pot): Holland, Ireland, Ukraine, Greece, Gibraltar

Which of these would you prefer for qualification purposes? And which of these scenarios would be a matter of credit to the manager v. luck of the draw?

Scotland won the group. They are in with Spain, Norway, Georgia and Cyprus. Would you prefer to be in their group?

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Yes, really.

However I do in general agree with the rest of your post. Whilst expecting nothing France do regularly have slip ups in qualifying and I am hoping they are feeling a bit of post WC fatigue… or something like that…

Put the likely team from 2023 alongside that 09 team. Not as big a gap as you're painting. Fairly even.

[Eirambler]

Euro 2020?

Norway didn't qualify for Euro 2020, their last finals was Euro 2000.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Euro 2020?

Were Norway at that?

[elatedscum]

Put the likely team from 2023 alongside that 09 team. Not as big a gap as you're painting. Fairly even.

New keeper < Lloris

Kounde/Pavard > Sagna
Upamecano > Gallas (close enough)
Konate > Escude
T Hernandez < Evra (close enough)

Tchoumani > L Diarra
Camavinga > A Diarra

Coman > Anelka (close enough)
Giroud > Gignac
Mbappe > Henry (Thierry was 32, different story 5 years earlier)

Both good teams but not at all even. Escude, Gignac, Alou Diarra - they wouldn’t get anywhere close to the current squad, let alone the first team

[osarusan]

Ive made the same point a few times, i'll give it one more go :)

The draw is happening:
Scenario 1 (Ireland in 3rd pot): Hungary, Israel, Ireland, Greece, Gibraltar
Scenario 2 (Ireland in 2nd pot): Holland, Ireland, Ukraine, Greece, Gibraltar

Which of these would you prefer for qualification purposes? And which of these scenarios would be a matter of credit to the manager v. luck of the draw?
How can a manager get credit or blame for the luck of the draw.

But I don't really see what the point is that you are making here.

You can get lucky draws or unlucky draws, but dropping down a seed is only bad news. The unlucky draws get more unlucky.

Kenny shares the responsibility for us dropping down a seed and being expoed to more unlucky draws.

[SkStu]

How can a manager get credit or blame for the luck of the draw.

But I don't really see what the point is that you are making here.

You can get lucky draws or unlucky draws, but dropping down a seed is only bad news. The unlucky draws get more unlucky.

Kenny shares the responsibility for us dropping down a seed and being expoed to more unlucky draws.

In the very first post I quoted earlier from Boom, he blamed the manager for what is, at the end of the day, an unlucky draw. I made the point that I don’t think that’s fair. Luck is luck. If we’d had a luckier draw (e.g. Hungary and Israel) we wouldn’t be giving blame (or credit) for it, nor should we. It’s a draw and sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

Did he drop down the seeds? I posted our last 8 seedings a few posts ago (copied below) and it doesn’t appear to me that he/we did drop. We are still third seeds and haven’t been second seeds since 2016 draw (based on 2014 performance).

WC 2010 – 3rd pot (2007) – 35
Euro 2012 – 3rd seeds (2009) – 25*
WC 2014 – 3rd seeds (2011) – 33
Euro 2016 – 2nd seeds (2014) – 19*
WC 2018 – 4th seeds (2015) – 42
Euro 2020 – 3rd seeds (2018) – 23*
WC 2022 – 3rd seeds (2020) – 52
Euro 2024 – 3rd seeds (2022) – 26*

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

New keeper < Lloris

Kounde/Pavard > Sagna
Upamecano > Gallas (close enough)
Konate > Escude
T Hernandez < Evra (close enough)

Tchoumani > L Diarra
Camavinga > A Diarra

Coman > Anelka (close enough)
Giroud > Gignac
Mbappe > Henry (Thierry was 32, different story 5 years earlier)

Both good teams but not at all even. Escude, Gignac, Alou Diarra - they wouldn’t get anywhere close to the current squad, let alone the first team

Even your biased view gives it close to 50/50. And you could have Henry ahead of Coman and Anelka ahead of Giroud. So not really a huge gap between them.

[Eirambler]

In the very first post I quoted earlier from Boom, he blamed the manager for what is, at the end of the day, an unlucky draw. I made the point that I don’t think that’s fair. Luck is luck. If we’d had a luckier draw (e.g. Hungary and Israel) we wouldn’t be giving blame (or credit) for it, nor should we. It’s a draw and sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

Did he drop down the seeds? I posted our last 8 seedings a few posts ago (copied below) and it doesn’t appear to me that he/we did drop. We are still third seeds and haven’t been second seeds since 2016 draw (based on 2014 performance).

WC 2010 – 3rd pot (2007) – 35
Euro 2012 – 3rd seeds (2009) – 25*
WC 2014 – 3rd seeds (2011) – 33
Euro 2016 – 2nd seeds (2014) – 19*
WC 2018 – 4th seeds (2015) – 42
Euro 2020 – 3rd seeds (2018) – 23*
WC 2022 – 3rd seeds (2020) – 52
Euro 2024 – 3rd seeds (2022) – 26*



But, as has already been pointed out, he blew a golden opportunity to get us a higher seeding from a favourable Nations League group. Therefore he's responsible for us being third seeds, which is what led to the horror draw. You can't just leave that bit out because it doesn't suit your argument!

[osarusan]

In the very first post I quoted earlier from Boom, he blamed the manager for what is, at the end of the day, an unlucky draw. I made the point that I don’t think that’s fair. Luck is luck. If we’d had a luckier draw (e.g. Hungary and Israel) we wouldn’t be giving blame (or credit) for it, nor should we. It’s a draw and sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

Did he drop down the seeds? I posted our last 8 seedings a few posts ago (copied below) and it doesn’t appear to me that he/we did drop. We are still third seeds and haven’t been second seeds since 2016 draw (based on 2014 performance).

WC 2010 – 3rd pot (2007) – 35
Euro 2012 – 3rd seeds (2009) – 25*
WC 2014 – 3rd seeds (2011) – 33
Euro 2016 – 2nd seeds (2014) – 19*
WC 2018 – 4th seeds (2015) – 42
Euro 2020 – 3rd seeds (2018) – 23*
WC 2022 – 3rd seeds (2020) – 52
Euro 2024 – 3rd seeds (2022) – 26*
Nope, you're right and I'm wrong. I got it mixed up with NL relegation.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

In the very first post I quoted earlier from Boom, he blamed the manager for what is, at the end of the day, an unlucky draw. I made the point that I don’t think that’s fair. Luck is luck. If we’d had a luckier draw (e.g. Hungary and Israel) we wouldn’t be giving blame (or credit) for it, nor should we. It’s a draw and sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

Did he drop down the seeds? I posted our last 8 seedings a few posts ago (copied below) and it doesn’t appear to me that he/we did drop. We are still third seeds and haven’t been second seeds since 2016 draw (based on 2014 performance).

WC 2010 – 3rd pot (2007) – 35
Euro 2012 – 3rd seeds (2009) – 25*
WC 2014 – 3rd seeds (2011) – 33
Euro 2016 – 2nd seeds (2014) – 19*
WC 2018 – 4th seeds (2015) – 42
Euro 2020 – 3rd seeds (2018) – 23*
WC 2022 – 3rd seeds (2020) – 52
Euro 2024 – 3rd seeds (2022) – 26*

You can call it an unlucky draw if you get a tough draw while second seeds. If you fail to get second seeds by losing to Armenia/coming close to the bottom of your Nations League group, you can't really call it unlucky. Scotland's draw is much better than ours I think you'll agree?