Serbia V Republic of Ireland - Wednesday, 24th March 2021 - World Cup 2022 Qualifier

[DeLorean]

It mightn’t be McGeady as it is definitely debatable whether he could still do a job for us at an international level (he’s playing really well atm though).

It's less debatable in my mind, I'll be very disappointed if he's not recalled. We're talking about a team who've scored one goal in a calendar year, he could absolutely offer something, whether that be an option when chasing a goal in Serbia or a much more creative force against Luxembourg than most our other options. The aesthetics might not look great, pulling a 34 year old League One player out of enforced retirement, but needs must.

[ifk101]

I thought Matt Doherty was comfortable at centre half against Wales, arguably his best game so far for us. Rather play him there than in a central midfield position. Not sure if I'd experiment so far as to starting him there against Serbia but it allows Coleman to play RB and it gives a competence to playing out from the back.

[tetsujin1979]

60 posts, three months, one dismal performer.

Please supply stats on right back Matt Doherty's goal scoring performances from central midfield to back up your assertion that he's better than in that position than our central midfielders.

It's not a complicated request. No deflection, no wumming, no self-righteous guff in response, please. Just stats. Put up or shut up.


It's an opinion on a football forum - surprisingly enough about a footballer. Do you supply stats for every opinion you offer on a footballer, team or manager? If I accused you of the above (emboldened), I'd probably be red-carded - but, hey, feel free.

You have a day to respond to the request.

[Eminence Grise]

It's an opinion on a football forum - surprisingly enough about a footballer. Do you supply stats for every opinion you offer on a footballer, team or manager? If I accused you of the above (emboldened), I'd probably be red-carded - but, hey, feel free.

No surprise in this non-response. You don't have an answer so you throw a strop and hope nobody notices.

Opinions are fine, they don't need to be backed up. But you made a strong assertion that Matt Doherty would be a better centre midfielder and score more goals than regular specialist central midfielders. Now if you're backtracking and downplaying that assertion to an opinion, that's fine - I have my own view of the value of your opinions, and it doesn't need any extra validation. But if you're doubling down on the assertion - produce the stats.

[Snapshot]

You have a day to respond to the request.
I offered an opinion on Doherty playing midfield. I'm now ordered to qualify it with statistics within one day? Is that fair and reasonable? My opinion was not contingent on statistics - only that I think Doherty would do a good job in midfield. What's unreasonable or objectionable about that? Fair go, please.

Just read EM's post above. Assertion v Opinion? Semantics, surely.

[Eminence Grise]

Two days. You were asked on the 10th.

In my line of work, to opine is to state a subjective view. If it's honestly held and amenable to a robust but friendly discussion, no matter how dogmatic it appears to be, there's usually no issue. You say tomahto, I say tomayto. To assert is to state an objective view with evidence. You're not open to discussing your view on Doherty, it's counter-factual to what we know of the player and his career, and given your contributions here I question whether it is a sincerely held view or simply stirring the pot to see who bites. Maybe you're not a wum and you've got off to a rocky start misreading the tone here. I'm open to be persuaded. On that and Doherty. The ball's in your court.

For what it's worth, I'm confident I would be held to the same standard by any of the mods here. It's the fear of a public scolding that from Tets keeps me in line (mostly - sorry about the puns, Tets. I am trying:culpability:).

[DCWA]

The only recollection I have of Doherty playing midfield is in Gibraltar and it did not work at all.

[Eminence Grise]

And he played wide, not central.

[Snapshot]

Two days. You were asked on the 10th.

In my line of work, to opine is to state a subjective view. If it's honestly held and amenable to a robust but friendly discussion, no matter how dogmatic it appears to be, there's usually no issue. You say tomahto, I say tomayto. To assert is to state an objective view with evidence. You're not open to discussing your view on Doherty, it's counter-factual to what we know of the player and his career, and given your contributions here I question whether it is a sincerely held view or simply stirring the pot to see who bites. Maybe you're not a wum and you've got off to a rocky start misreading the tone here. I'm open to be persuaded. On that and Doherty. The ball's in your court.

For what it's worth, I'm confident I would be held to the same standard by any of the mods here. It's the fear of a public scolding that from Tets keeps me in line (mostly - sorry about the puns, Tets. I am trying:culpability:).

Your reply is eloquent and modest. That you are of high morals is not in question. I certainly cannot claim such standards - but do I really need to? It's a football discussion and your strict adherence to protocol in such an environment seems unwieldy. My Doherty comment was harmless - not unlike thousands of others here. To be press ganged for forensic data to back it up, to my mind, is over the top. It's just my opinion, irrespective of what the stats or what other posters say. Do with it what you will. You remind me of Jaggers in Great Expectations - the letter of the law swamps everything. But in the end he's a good guy. No offence intended - and no stats.

[Diggs246]

Also lets be fair everybody apart from randy was dreadful that day.

I thought it was poor management to give up on the idea of playing both Seamus and Matt in the same team, based on that philosophy the whole team should have been dropped

[Eminence Grise]

Your reply is eloquent and modest. That you are of high morals is not in question. I certainly cannot claim such standards - but do I really need to? It's a football discussion and your strict adherence to protocol in such an environment seems unwieldy. My Doherty comment was harmless - not unlike thousands of others here. To be press ganged for forensic data to back it up, to my mind, is over the top. It's just my opinion, irrespective of what the stats or what other posters say. Do with it what you will. You remind me of Jaggers in Great Expectations - the letter of the law swamps everything. But in the end he's a good guy. No offence intended - and no stats.

I'm happy to park it. What makes this forum so good is exactly that we look for a higher input than you'll find on other boards, and we've had a few contributors in recent years whose posts were like yours to begin with - a bit contrarian, maybe a flash of the studs in the tackle, nothing outrageous or OTT, everybody gave as good as they got, and no offence given or taken. But a few of them were let go too far and really dragged down the enjoyment levels. I suppose that's behind the thinking of some of us, and maybe we're a bit more wary because of it.

Clean slate?

FWIW, maybe Doherty could be the answer to all our prayers (and God knows enough are being said) but offhand any rare time we've played FBs in CM it's been a disappointment (Terry Phelan, iirc, Cyrus Christie). I think one of the great failings of the management over the years has been playing square pegs in round holes for short term, game to game benefits and no long term thinking. We've eviscerated our domestic game, relied on the UK to coach players (and even give birth to them!), depleted the player pool by capping guys six or seven years too late* so we have a dreadful situation that won't be solved in eight games or 20, whether it's Kenny or a world class coach in charge. Our problems are systemic - cash, coaching, confidence, administrative - and need root and branch reform over the next decade. Sure, we can play Doherty in midfield against Serbia and see what happens, and try something similar with another player in the game after that, or we can take the medium term hit of poor results while we improve domestic youth coaching, encourage players to consider other leagues than the UKs and gradually claw our way back.

*There was a time we weren't sniffy about capping reserves at good clubs - why are we now? Why are we letting them drift down to L1 or L2, or Scottish Championship and spend half of their twenties scrapping to resurrect their careers? By the time we cap them, they've peaked as lower level players. A twenty-year old with four or five caps who can be considered a regular call-up will be out of reach of L1 clubs - they will have too much to lose by dropping down. On that matter, I don't think we should cap anybody in L1 anyway - all we're saying is that it's OK to lower your standard but we'll still pick you.

Longer answer than intended, and I haven't even addressed your thoughts on Charles D1ckens! He's versatile, has great endurance and is very creative - play him at 10 maybe, instad of McGeady, in a fantasy team?:D

[CraftyToePoke]

Clean slate?

Good stuff, best available outcome. Play on etc :)

[CraftyToePoke]

I thought Matt Doherty was comfortable at centre half against Wales, arguably his best game so far for us. Rather play him there than in a central midfield position. Not sure if I'd experiment so far as to starting him there against Serbia but it allows Coleman to play RB and it gives a competence to playing out from the back.

This is where SKStu's 3 /5 /2 post again demonstrates why that formation merits discussion, with what we currently have available, as it can put both Coleman & Doherty on the same pitch, I think either could play right of a back three, more so Coleman, and either could play in a midfield three, again Coleman more than Doherty. Now this isn't ideal, ideally we have CBs making the spot their own but we haven't. Also it would be nice to have midfielders making those spots their own, and again we don't. We will need to look after the ball V Serbia, keep giving it back and we will lose, concede early and that loss could be heavy and the whole thing spirals in a bad way.

I realise it does negate the more eye catching strengths of one of them, however you line them up, but Coleman in particular would recycle possession simply and effectively in the middle, he has become a good all round footballer. Yes, I take EG's point its stop gapping and won't fix anything long term but we need to be competitive in the group for project SK to buy the time it needs.

The 3 / 5 / 2 does fit our present available player pool to the best of their admittedly limited strengths with cover in each spot of a similar calibre player. I know also it probably isn't going to happen.

[Eminence Grise]

Don't get me wrong, CTP - stopgapping where appropriate is fine. The problem is we've lurched from one half-baked solution to the next, and we learn nothing from our mistakes (we never fail better). Coleman has often been mentioned here as a possible right of three centre halves, with the ball playing/distribution role. And fullbacks can gravitate laterally more effectively than vertically especially as they age - Stan's latter years, Richard Dunne played a lot of his early Everton games as right back. I wouldn't see that as a stop gap or square peg in a round hole if it were to become Coleman's regular position for us in a settled 352 formation (and somebody else's when he retires), and it would allow us to use Doherty as a wingback which, for me, is his best position. I don't see us using 352 any day soon, despite it possibly fitting our player pool better, so it's academic really.

[backstothewall]

FWIW, transfermarkt (https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/matt-doherty/leistungsdatendetails/spieler/171679) have tracked every second of his career, like any pro at his level, and he's never played a game in CM in his life.

That's not to say he couldn't do it. Gareth Bale had only ever played left back until one day Harry Redknapp, faced with a load of injuries and a defender who kept making costly mistakes, pushed him forward onto the wing.

I'd prefer him in his natural position myself, but that's just me.

[seanfhear]

FWIW, transfermarkt (https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/matt-doherty/leistungsdatendetails/spieler/171679) have tracked every second of his career, like any pro at his level, and he's never played a game in CM in his life.

That's not to say he couldn't do it. Gareth Bale had only ever played left back until one day Harry Redknapp, faced with a load of injuries and a defender who kept making costly mistakes, pushed him forward onto the wing.

I'd prefer him in his natural position myself, but that's just me.
And now Gareth Bale is a very good amateur golfer so tis funny how things work out !

[Razors left peg]

Im gonna ignore the Doherty playing center midfield debate, because it just wont happen in these games anyway. After Cyrus Christie played there I'll never rule anything out in future.

The more I think about calling up McGeady the more I like the idea. McCarthy called up Judge and Whelan who were playing L1 so I wouldnt really care about the optics of it. McGeady could be a very useful last 20 mins player if we were struggling to unlock a defense, and maybe buys us a bit of time for Byrne to get fit, Ronan to hopefully develop into a realistic option and others like Joe Hodge to hopefully be good enough.

Our biggest issue still remains the strikers. I'll probably get hammered for this but I'd go with Parrott. Ive watch him a lot this season and I still think there is a very good player there. His touch is very good, hes strong and hes a hard worker. He been used in a lot of different positions and Paul Cook spoke the other day about how he needs to stop dropping back into his own half so much and do his main work in the last 3rd. He needs a goal badly and you can see he is trying too hard at times and being a bit greedy, but I still think when he gets one he will go on a run.

What it boils down to is that we have nobody really putting their hand up to say they should be starting, so in a crowded field of mediocrity Id pick the guy who could be a very good player for us for 10 years rather than a James Collins who will never be more than a poor journeyman.

[Razors left peg]

Randolph not going to be available for these games. Kenny hoping that Kelleher will be fit. Mentions Travers being on bench, Bazunu a possibility.

He did also speak briefly about Kieran Westwood but said he has lost his place and is on the bench recently. If I was betting I would say Bazunu might start if Kelleher isnt fit, and apparently its very tight whether he will make it back in time.

[tetsujin1979]

Has Westwood recovered from the fractured rib?

[Razors left peg]

Has Westwood recovered from the fractured rib?
I dont think Kenny said anything about injury, I might have missed it

[backstothewall]

Forgive me folks. I'm totally out of the loop with the international game.

When is the squad announced, and who all are unavailable for these games?

[Razors left peg]

Forgive me folks. I'm totally out of the loop with the international game.

When is the squad announced, and who all are unavailable for these games?

Not announced yet, someone else Im sure will remember what date its announced. Right now, Randolph and Byrne definitely out

[ColourfulPeanut]

Kelleher a doubt too. Keeper is a major problem all of a sudden.

What should we do if they're both out? Give Travers the shot as next in line? Recall Westwood? Throw Bazunu into the deep end?

I personally don't rate Travers and it looks like he's nervous every time he plays.

[CraftyToePoke]

Forgive me folks. I'm totally out of the loop with the international game.

When is the squad announced, and who all are unavailable for these games?


Link - https://www.facebook.com/eireguide

Squad announcement info above but its currently 18 / 3.

[CraftyToePoke]

Has Westwood recovered from the fractured rib?

Westwood hasn't played since 20 / 2 and the news from the interim Wednesday manager was to see how the next week or two went at that stage.

[pineapple stu]

Luxembourg have to be fancying their chances all of a sudden. They're on the up a bit, we're on the down and potentially three keepers injured will tax a lot of countries

Not looking forward to these games

[pineapple stu]

Kelleher a doubt too. Keeper is a major problem all of a sudden.

What should we do if they're both out? Give Travers the shot as next in line? Recall Westwood? Throw Bazunu into the deep end?

I personally don't rate Travers and it looks like he's nervous every time he plays.
Rochdale have conceded 63 goals in the third tier this season so far.

Bazunu's not remotely ready for Serbia away.

That's not to say he won't play, but he's not ready.

[backstothewall]

Injuries are mounting.

Currently injured:

RANDOLPH
Kelleher
WESTWOOD
EGAN
D WILLIAMS
McCarthy
Arter
Brady
BYRNE
SMALLBONE
MCCLEAN
O’Dowda
Maguire
OBAFEMI

Capitalised those that are almost certain to miss out

Is this list still remotely accurate? And is it possible to get MLS players in from the States for this shindig?

On the goalkeeper situationm, has Rob Elliott formally packed in international football? Seems to be making the bench for Watford every week, and has always been a solid keeper.

[Razors left peg]

Rochdale have conceded 63 goals in the third tier this season so far.

Bazunu's not remotely ready for Serbia away.

That's not to say he won't play, but he's not ready.

Was Shay Given ready when he was thrown in at a similar age?

[pineapple stu]

Shay Given wasn't shipping 60+ goals at the foot of the third tier.

In fact, I think he was on a run of clean sheets for Sunderland at the top of the second. Quite a big difference

[geysir]

Shay wasn't exactly thrown in was he? Dean Kiely was around so also Alan Kelly.
Our problem was who to pick as nr 1

[backstothewall]

I think we should play 3 goalkeepers in these 3 games.

Randy isn't getting any younger, and with covid potentially an issue for god knows how long, this is likely to be an issue we face again.

We need more goalkeepers who have both been in or around squads, and on the field.

With the number of withdrawals we've been experiencing since the restart i think we should go back to O'Neill style 40 man squads. I'd initially name 5 goalkeepers and see who was still available after withdrawals.

Kelleher may be inexperiened, but he has played between the sticks for the Premier League champions in the Champions League. Arguably, the only reason he hasn't had a Given-Sunderland style loan at the top of the Championship, is because Liverpool can't afford to lose him with the problems they have been having in goal.

I don't think Bazunu is at that Given/Sunderland level yet, but for me Kelleher is. If available he should start in the absense of Randolph.

After that we should call up 4 others.

3 of those are Jack Bonham, Danny Rogers & Mark Travers. They've all played some kind of football this season, which means they've cleared a very low bar.

After that I'd get on the phone to Rob Elliott and Stephen Henderson to see how agreeable either of them would be to making an unlikely international comeback, on the understanding that covid/injuries allowing, the 3 keepers finally named in the squad will all start a game.

[elatedscum]

Is this list still remotely accurate? And is it possible to get MLS players in from the States for this shindig?

On the goalkeeper situationm, has Rob Elliott formally packed in international football? Seems to be making the bench for Watford every week, and has always been a solid keeper.

Currently injured:

RANDOLPH
Kelleher
Westwood
Coleman
EGAN
D WILLIAMS
MCCARTHY
Arter
BYRNE
SMALLBONE
MCCLEAN
O’Dowda
Maguire
OBAFEMI

Capitalised those that are almost certain to miss out

Brady was back playing 30 mins last weekend from an ankle injury, so he should be ok.

I’d guess we’d be able to get MLS players here and play. The US isn’t a designated high risk country here, so shouldn’t be any different from the England really. Not really sure who that’d be though, Gallagher is probably the only one possible or am I missing someone? Haven’t heard of Ryan Meara in a few years, Williams is injured and Mulraney isn’t better than Shodipo, Curtis, Harness etc

[pineapple stu]

I think we should play 3 goalkeepers in these 3 games.
If Kelleher is fit, I'd give him the two qualifiers and maybe give two other keepers a half each against Qatar.

We have no keepers and no forwards; that Luxembourg game worries me and it's not one for messing about in. Kenny needs a win and a goal.

[Demesne Lad]

Maguire is available for the Preston NE v Wycombe Wanderers game, according to the Preston website today.
Kelleher is due to return to training this weekend, following his stomach muscle injury, and is expected to return to the Liverpool bench at the beginning of April (Empire of the Kop, today). I doubt if Watford gave Elliot a contract for sentimental reasons - given his experience of big games he should be in the squad v Serbia. On Tuesday (9th) O'Dowda played 65 minutes at right wing-back for the Bristol City U-23s.

[DeLorean]

Randolph and all that experience is obviously a big miss. In terms of who's available to step in, I don't think it makes a big difference, all pretty much as risky as each other at this point, Kelleher included. It was something we were going to have to deal with soon anyway, relying on a 34 year old bench warmer wasn't a good place to be.

[Eirambler]

Connolly out now as well. Hard to pick a strong team from what's left at this stage.

Kelleher
Coleman
Stevens
Clark
O'Shea
Cullen
Knight
Browne
Brady
Robinson
Idah

6 or 7 of those could easily be different in the team that ends up being named though. We have almost no definite starters, no established spine to the team, we really are close to starting from scratch here.

[NeverFeltBetter]

I was hopeful enough of a result up to a few weeks ago, but the team is looking pretty threadbare at this stage with injuries. Still nervous about that Luxembourg game too. On the other hand Kenny can't keep getting excused because of selection issues. I dunno.

[zero]

is connolly definitely out? cracked rib...

[Diggs246]

yep hes gone.

The starting line up? anyone hazard a guess what kenny will go with ( assuming he sticks to 433)

[pineapple stu]

On the other hand Kenny can't keep getting excused because of selection issues.
True, but this is (a) the weakest squad in 40+ years at full strength and (b) not remotely at full strength. It's really hard to judge Kenny accurately while keeping those two factors in mind.

[John83]

Connolly out now as well. Hard to pick a strong team from what's left at this stage.

Kelleher
Coleman
Stevens
Clark
O'Shea
Cullen
Knight
Browne
Brady
Robinson
Idah

6 or 7 of those could easily be different in the team that ends up being named though. We have almost no definite starters, no established spine to the team, we really are close to starting from scratch here.
I'd guess he'll go for more experience than that in midfield. I think people here overestimate the readiness of some of the younger guys. Even if Hendrick isn't on great form, I don't see him being behind all three of that lot. I don't rate Hourihane and O'Dowda all that highly, but I think Kenny does for now anyway, so they're in the mix too unless injured.

I'm curious to see what he does with Coleman and Doherty. There are a few options if he wants to play both, with no obvious winner. I'm inclined to agree with the popular idea on here that they'd fit better in a five man backline, with one of them at the right of the centre halves, but Kenny doesn't seem to like that, and he may be loath to change formation for this game even if he does consider it. One could play at left back, though I think Kenny will probably play Stevens who isn't that much worse than them and it's his natural side. I'd say the most likely possibility if he plays both is one of them at centre half, where Doherty played well when we were stuck in one of the more recent games.

Another big call is who plays at centre half. I think he really should drop Duffy, who didn't fit his style even before his club form fell off a cliff, but will he?

Kelleher would be my choice in goals if he's fit too, but every option carries risk. It'll be a big call, and whoever the new goalkeeping coach is will have to give Kenny input based on how they're all training.

[Eirambler]

Connolly out now as well. Hard to pick a strong team from what's left at this stage.

Kelleher
Coleman
Stevens
Clark
O'Shea
Cullen
Knight
Browne
Brady
Robinson
Idah

6 or 7 of those could easily be different in the team that ends up being named though. We have almost no definite starters, no established spine to the team, we really are close to starting from scratch here.

Well I can scrap that team now anyway, looks like Idah's gone too.

[pineapple stu]

Ah here.

I'll dust off my boots I guess...

[Diggs246]

Well I can scrap that team now anyway, looks like Idah's gone too.

Shane long at the moment is the better option anyway.

[pineapple stu]

Just going to name-drop Cillian Sheridan here and watch foot implode :)

[DeLorean]

Just going to name-drop Cillian Sheridan here and watch foot implode :)

Sheridan has played very little recently too but Tricky might finally get his Padraig Amond wish. :D

[Razors left peg]

I might be a bit too hard here but with a cracked rib surely you could take a load of pain killers and get on with it?

[nigel-harps1954]

I might be a bit too hard here but with a cracked rib surely you could take a load of pain killers and get on with it?

From experience, even painkillers aren't too helpful with cracked ribs. I couldn't imagine playing a game of football with it.

[Razors left peg]

From experience, even painkillers aren't too helpful with cracked ribs. I couldn't imagine playing a game of football with it.

Ive had cracked ribs myself before and its bad alright, but I look at the NFL over here and Drew Brees played last year on multiple broken ribs. I know NFL guys are usually on multiple illegal PEDs but still.

Im just frustrated at what seems to be here we go again with the injuries before a camp