Serbia V Republic of Ireland - Wednesday, 24th March 2021 - World Cup 2022 Qualifier

[DeLorean]

I'm not one for stats


I had a look, hes scored 14 goals in 65 appearances for Newcastle in 3 seasons, 2 of those premier league.

Hes scored 51 goals in 117 appearances for Fulham, which looks good, but you'll see that in 60 appearances in the premier league hes scored 13 goals. That's a 4.6 goal ratio. There's nothing special about that record.

For comparison Kevin doyles premier league ratio was about 4.4. Hardly a smashing player either.

That's all for now, your Honour.

[paul_oshea]

Ha, you know what i mean, things like possession, corners/shots etc. Goals are what matter at the end of the day.

As they say in Rugby, tries win matches.

[passinginterest]

I had a look, hes scored 14 goals in 65 appearances for Newcastle in 3 seasons, 2 of those premier league.

Hes scored 51 goals in 117 appearances for Fulham, which looks good, but you'll see that in 60 appearances in the premier league hes scored 13 goals. That's a 4.6 goal ratio. There's nothing special about that record.

For comparison Kevin doyles premier league ratio was about 4.4. Hardly a smashing player either.

To be fair though, I think we'd kill for a striker with a Kevin Doyle or Mitrovic record now. We don't have anything remotely close. It's a massive step up on what we have now, all we have now is some lower league journeymen and some promising youngsters.

[paul_oshea]

How long did this take to write!

Not long i can speed type quite quickly, a few minutes!

[paul_oshea]

To be fair though, I think we'd kill for a striker with a Kevin Doyle or Mitrovic record now. We don't have anything remotely close. It's a massive step up on what we have now, all we have now is some lower league journeymen and some promising youngsters.

James COllins, great lower league scoring record, just like Mitrovic ;)

I take the point though, and I knew that would be the counter, I'm just saying lets try and be realistic a bit more, more often here. But ya, we'd definitely jump at either of those right now.

[CraftyToePoke]

I had a look, hes scored 14 goals in 65 appearances for Newcastle in 3 seasons, 2 of those premier league.

Hes scored 51 goals in 117 appearances for Fulham, which looks good, but you'll see that in 60 appearances in the premier league hes scored 13 goals. That's a 4.6 goal ratio. There's nothing special about that record.

For comparison Kevin doyles premier league ratio was about 4.4. Hardly a smashing player either.

And how does Jimmy Collins compare Paul ?
Take us through his Prem record there. Good man. Or Robinson, or Connolly or Long.

[DeLorean]

Goals are what matter at the end of the day.

They are, and he has 38 goals in 62 internationals. And he was a sub, along with a €60m Real Madrid striker. Of our starters, only three players had even scored an international goal, Ciaran Clark the cream of the crop with two.

[pineapple stu]

He also scored 2 in his first 19 internationals, so since then (allow a starting time for developing as a player, etc) it's 36 in 43, which is phenomenal.

He's struggled in the Premier League a bit, but is clinical at Championship level. Guess where most of our players come from these days?

[CraftyToePoke]

James COllins, great lower league scoring record,

No, no he hasn't. At all.

[backstothewall]

I had a look, hes scored 14 goals in 65 appearances for Newcastle in 3 seasons, 2 of those premier league.

Hes scored 51 goals in 117 appearances for Fulham, which looks good, but you'll see that in 60 appearances in the premier league hes scored 13 goals. That's a 4.6 goal ratio. There's nothing special about that record.

For comparison Kevin doyles premier league ratio was about 4.4. Hardly a smashing player either.

He's played exactly 100 Premier League games in his career, scoring 23 goals. He averages a goal ever 289 minutes.

https://www.transfermarkt.com/aleksandar-mitrovic/leistungsdaten/spieler/51152/plus/1?saison=ges

Kevin Doyle played 164 premier league games, scoring 37 goals. He averaged a goal every 350 minutes.

https://www.transfermarkt.com/kevin-doyle/leistungsdaten/spieler/35193/saison//plus/1#gesamt

Robbie Keane played 349 premier league games, scored 125 goals. He averaged a goal every 196 minutes

https://www.transfermarkt.com/robbie-keane/leistungsdaten/spieler/3144/saison//plus/1#gesamt

Niall Quinn played 250 premier league games, scored 59 goals. He averaged a goal every 305 minutes (Quinner is helped by dropping off a load of old First Division games for Arsenal when he didn't get too many goals)

https://www.transfermarkt.com/niall-quinn/leistungsdaten/spieler/104110/saison//plus/1#gesamt

So the stats suggest he's better than Doyle, and is between the 2 top goalscorers in the history of our national team. Closer to Quinn admittedly.

I know these terms are very subjective, but I also thought Quinner was a smashing player.


James COllins, great lower league scoring record, just like Mitrovic ;)

Championship level:

Mitrovic. 82 games, 42 goals. Average 145 minutes per goal. Same link as above.

Collins. 79 games, 21 goals. Average 297 minutes per goal

https://www.transfermarkt.com/james-collins/leistungsdaten/spieler/62640/saison/ges/plus/1#gesamt

It's not even close.

[zero]

No, no he hasn't. At all.

to be fair collins's record for luton at league one level was impressive, pretty much a goal every other game. dropped to 1 in 3 in his first season in the championship and i think he is in and out of the team now.

paddy madden had a good record at that league one too and couldn't step up. i would say that's a more valid comparison than mitro.

i do think he offers us something though, depending on the opposition.

[Stuttgart88]

They are, and he has 38 goals in 62 internationals. And he was a sub, along with a €60m Real Madrid striker. Of our starters, only three players had even scored an international goal, Ciaran Clark the cream of the crop with two.
It's about time more of us were realistic.

[tetsujin1979]

No, no he hasn't. At all.
TBF, it's not bad - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Collins_(footballer,_born_1990)#Club
Averaging a little under one goal every three games for Luton since signing for them

[CraftyToePoke]

Ah I'm not slagging Collins off, he has a part to play. Just saying Mitrovic, the Real player, the Fiorentina player and Tadic recent CL semi finalist and a key player in his clubs run to that bring a few percent more than our lads in those positions do when the game begins. When we had two Keanes and a Duff we brought that, we don't atm.

[Siberian]

Being realistic I'd settle for victories against the two teams ranked below us in this group and being competitive against the teams ranked above us (a bit like last night). However more importantly after this campaign I'd like to think we will be starting the next Euro qualifiers with 5/6 young players who have progressed during this campaign and can be relied upon as regular starters going into the next one. That's what I think Kenny needs to achieve to earn a crack at the Euro 24 qualifiers. Away games against Luxembourg and Azarbajan will be crucial.

[Olé Olé]

Mitrovic is a smashing player. He arrived at Newcastle as a 20 year old, and only got 2 seasons before they benched him, and then eventually sent him out on loan to Fulham.

He's got 52 goals in 127 appearances for them. In truth he's far to good for Fulham. If they go down he'll almost certainly move on.

What Stephen Kenny wouldn't give for a striker with that sort of record.

But they went down before and he didn't move on?

[sadloserkid]

Collins currently has as many international goals as Robinson, Connolly, Idah, Parrott and Maguire combined. None of which says that he's either world class or terrible but I think he's getting a raw deal from some here.

[Olé Olé]

I thought RTE went a bit heavy on praising Serbia and their players- and then went off an made Alan Browne man of the match, but I digress. Tadic and Mitrovic are not elite are very good footballers and, yes, Tadic caused problems and, yes, we don't have Premiership striker to bring on in Mitrovic and that demonstrates strength in reserve. But go through the rest of their team- Eibar, Strasbourg, Fiorentina, Brugge, Crvena Zvedza, Torino, Valencia, Legia, Sassuolo- it wasn't as if they were absolutely stacked with quality. Mitrovic could have started over Djuricic and maybe the result would still be the same.

We started 7 Premiership players with varying levels of regularity of starts- O'Shea, Coleman, Stevens, Clark mostly in and Robinson, Doherty and Connolly in and out- with Cullen of Anderlecht and Molumby, Browne and Travers. Randolph and Egan improve that team immediately, and McCarthy on a good day.

Overall, we don't have the depth of squad or attacking quality of Vlahovic, Tadic and Mitrovic but that is borne out in a 3-2 result. I'm frankly delighted to see us get a 3-2 result and it is a fair scoreline. If we can find a standout in midfield and a quality striker then who knows how good we can be with a bit of time for Kenny to implement a style. God, I hate to say this, but imagine Rice and Grealish in that team last night....

Interesting to see the switch in formation. I wonder if having Anthony Barry on board helped facilitate the switch. 3-4-3 is a favourite of Tuchel so Barry has been well exposed to it at Chelsea. Granted, we played a 3-5-2 but Browne did push up when he could.

[weldoninhio]

Luxembourg got the same result as us vs Serbia when they played in the Euro qualifiers. Although Mitro and Milinkovic-Savic started that game. Last night was our best change of a result against a Serbia in transition, with a new manager who'd had 2 sessions with them. Both teams were extremely sloppy in possession, not something I was expecting from Serbia, although they had rested some first teamers with an eye on Portugal.

[weldoninhio]

because we dominated the match, we had the ball apart from the first 10 minutes

55% possession Serbia 45% possession Ireland. Dominant!!

[weldoninhio]

Pleasantly surprised by the generally positive mood around the support after the game. Glad to see that people are more realistic about things than I maybe thought many were. I think the second goal probably helped with that - we finished the game on the front foot.

If only we could leave out a player like Mitrovic because we had a player like Vlahovic coming through. Maybe we will have in a few years, who knows.

Mitro, Milinkovic-Savic, Kostic, Jovic were benched with an eye on the Portugal game.

[paul_oshea]

Mitro, Milinkovic-Savic, Kostic, Jovic were benched with an eye on the Portugal game.

Ya thats a good point they brought the big guns in early when things weren't going as easy for them.

[paul_oshea]

I thought RTE went a bit heavy on praising Serbia and their players- and then went off an made Alan Browne man of the match, but I digress. Tadic and Mitrovic are not elite are very good footballers and, yes, Tadic caused problems and, yes, we don't have Premiership striker to bring on in Mitrovic and that demonstrates strength in reserve. But go through the rest of their team- Eibar, Strasbourg, Fiorentina, Brugge, Crvena Zvedza, Torino, Valencia, Legia, Sassuolo- it wasn't as if they were absolutely stacked with quality. Mitrovic could have started over Djuricic and maybe the result would still be the same.

We started 7 Premiership players with varying levels of regularity of starts- O'Shea, Coleman, Stevens, Clark mostly in and Robinson, Doherty and Connolly in and out- with Cullen of Anderlecht and Molumby, Browne and Travers. Randolph and Egan improve that team immediately, and McCarthy on a good day.

Overall, we don't have the depth of squad or attacking quality of Vlahovic, Tadic and Mitrovic but that is borne out in a 3-2 result. I'm frankly delighted to see us get a 3-2 result and it is a fair scoreline. If we can find a standout in midfield and a quality striker then who knows how good we can be with a bit of time for Kenny to implement a style. God, I hate to say this, but imagine Rice and Grealish in that team last night....

Interesting to see the switch in formation. I wonder if having Anthony Barry on board helped facilitate the switch. 3-4-3 is a favourite of Tuchel so Barry has been well exposed to it at Chelsea. Granted, we played a 3-5-2 but Browne did push up when he could.

I said just after halfway through last night during the game, that Serbia didnt look dangerous, and they didnt really. Our defensive formation was generally solid bar a couple of individual(s)/individual mistakes. I still stick by that, they could leave their best players off for 3/5s of the game. They went up a couple of goals and took their foot off the pedal again. A draw would have been a good result for us, and I feel last night was the best chance in getting that - for the reasons you've highlighted above.

When you look at the premier league and the rest of Europe its performing very well in the European competitions and still attracts the cream of the crop. Serbia's starting 11 had a smattering of players from Italy and Spain but all generally mid table clubs. The rest were dotted around the European leagues. We downplay the premier league when it suits and overstate European leagues.

[Olé Olé]

Mitro, Milinkovic-Savic, Kostic, Jovic were benched with an eye on the Portugal game.

Would Jovic, Kostic and Mitro not be in the front 3? What about Tadic and Vlahovic?

[tetsujin1979]

I thought RTE went a bit heavy on praising Serbia and their players- and then went off an made Alan Browne man of the match, but I digress.
They've been picking the best Irish player, rather than a overall man of the match, for a while now

[Olé Olé]

They've been picking the best Irish player, rather than a overall man of the match, for a while now
I know. I stated I digressed instead of delving further into the patent contradiction.

[Kingdom]

The Kenny that does media can not be the kenny that you hear players talk about as a great man manager.
He comes accross as unbelievably wooden and dopey

You really don't like SK do you sbgawa?

[Kingdom]

O'Shea is so raw but there's potential there

Nah, he's been peddling the same stuff for too long now, pushing on a decade anyway.

[sbgawa]

No i actually meant it as a genuine comment, you hear players who have played for him saying how motivational etc he was and he comes across terrible in interviews so i kind of meant that cant ne the real him ....if you know what i mean.

[Predator]

There is only so much heart you can take from an hour's decent performance. It feels like a really disappointing result after leading the game, but to be fair the players fought right til the end to salvage something. Serbia never got out of second gear, really, and they do have a lot of quality, particularly in the final third. Tadic has come on so much since leaving Southampton for Ajax and he played with so much confidence last night it was frightening. I don't recall him ever looking as dangerous in the previous two games against them. Maybe the new systems of both teams had a part to play in that?

[Bielsa´s irish]

I didnt see many comments on the foul on Connolly, that was a penalty from every angle. In my opinion.

Another thing,,,,, I watched on twitter and youtube Brian Kerr, your very own José Pekerman, making heavy remarks on the team, and the choices Kenny did. Very vocal about it, alongside that tall guy Delaney. Both very critical in one aspect that I agree, Kerr said why 3 at the back now, when he had like 7 matches to try 3 at the back and kept on 4 at the back. He also noted that too many youngsters at the same time wasnt good, because errors were meant to be. The goalie, our last man, the two center mids, and the two strikers.

I like Kerr the way he sees football he is old school like Liam Brady and the other two guys

[Razors left peg]

I'm sorry Predator but to say Serbia never got out of 2nd gear is an absolute nonsense statement. Yes they were the better team but they were not coasting to an easy win in that game

[Predator]

I'm sorry Predator but to say Serbia never got out of 2nd gear is an absolute nonsense statement. Yes they were the better team but they were not coasting to an easy win in that gameI'm sorry you feel that way, Razor :D
Fair enough maybe that's being a bit generous to them, but I think once they got the equaliser they definitely got into a groove and even got a bit blasé as the slack defending for our second showed. I imagine they will give Portugal plenty of problems.

[tetsujin1979]

I've watched Connolly's penalty claim a few times and I still can't decide. From the Serbian goal side it looks like the defender got the ball first, from behind it looks like he's taken Connolly out first
1374828566131703811

[Predator]

I wouldn't be certain either way on the penalty call either. The referee seems positioned well enough for it, but it is very hard to say.
I do wonder how much those theatrical jolts work against or for players when it comes to getting the foul. You see some very soft fouls given when attacking players throw themselves to the ground outside the box at the slightest contact, but refs are somewhat more judicious when it's in the box!

[Razors left peg]

I'm sorry you feel that way, Razor :D
Fair enough maybe that's being a bit generous to them, but I think once they got the equaliser they definitely got into a groove and even got a bit blasé as the slack defending for our second showed. I imagine they will give Portugal plenty of problems.

Yes I think once they went 3-1 up they might have taken the foot off the pedal a bit and they were the better team over all but they were not playing in 2nd gear. They are good side and we caused them problems, I think with a crowd in Lansdowne we could beat them.

[pineapple stu]

I think there's a point there from Predator on the second gear, in that they were very comfortable and neat in their build-up play, but they didn't really create that many chances out of it. We were struggling to keep possession at times and while we defended well, I thought Serbia would probably feel annoyed they didn't create more. So in that sense, I did feel they had an extra gear in them, but it was more that they let themselves down at times in the final third rather than that they weren't bothered. If that makes sense.

I'd be slightly worried Portugal will play the same way but create more chances, though I don't think the Portugal games are going to be all that relevant for us here.

That Connolly tackle does look like the guy got the ball to me. Certainly you can't look at it and ignore the Coleman call a few minutes later.

[Razors left peg]

I think there's a point there from Predator on the second gear, in that they were very comfortable and neat in their build-up play, but they didn't really create that many chances out of it. We were struggling to keep possession at times and while we defended well, I thought Serbia would probably feel annoyed they didn't create more. So in that sense, I did feel they had an extra gear in them, but it was more that they let themselves down at times in the final third rather than that they weren't bothered. If that makes sense.

I'd be slightly worried Portugal will play the same way but create more chances, though I don't think the Portugal games are going to be all that relevant for us here.

That Connolly tackle does look like the guy got the ball to me. Certainly you can't look at it and ignore the Coleman call a few minutes later.

I think Portugal are the type of team that could put 5 or 6 past us, yet they struggled to a 1 nil against Azerbaijan yesterday. They always have some weird results in qualifying so hopefully we can get something from them. Id take 1 point from the 2 games and beat Serbia at home.

[weldoninhio]

Would Jovic, Kostic and Mitro not be in the front 3? What about Tadic and Vlahovic?

Jovic and Mitro are their established strikers. Vlahovic only got his 5th cap last night. Kostic is more of a winger.

[weldoninhio]

They've been picking the best Irish player, rather than a overall man of the match, for a while now

Eh, it’s player of the match. #triggered.

[ontheotherhand]

The reality is that the Serbs have almost 2 teams they could put out that are better than our best starting 11 right now. We have 4 lads (Coleman, Clark, O'Shea, Stevens) getting a game in the English top flight and a few warming benches who haven't had a good game for Ireland in 5 years. Of the 4 playing, 2 are rooted to the bottom of the league. The rest are playing or struggling to play in the Championship.

Serbia, first choice 11 or not, had lads playing and doing well in Seria A, La Liga and the Eredivisie and better on the bench. I saw someone say they are playing in mid table teams in those leagues....what we wouldn't give for that! These were in form players who were fighting to keep a place in the team ahead of the stronger players they were able to spring from the bench. While an odd number of Irish people have bought into Sky's marketing around the EPL being the be all and end all of leagues we see the proof of how strong those other leagues are every year in the CL. Italy and then Holland are lower down the order in fairness but I'd take a player playing week in week out and scoring/assisting in those leagues over a lad struggling to get into an EPL or Championship outfit. Form, fitness and confidence are important, particularly in international football when prep time is only a few days. Our midfield in comparison to theirs had 1 lad playing regularly in Belgium, one who can't get a game in the Championship and one who does well in the Championship. And midfield wasn't even our main issue! Up front they had their backup playing. He has 12 in 27 in Seria A. Meanwhile our most prolific option has 2 in 15 in the EPL, a **** haircut and wasn't even fully fit.

I started laughing when I saw us bringing on the triple threat of Brady, McLean and Collins. Has to be the worst lineup of subs we've ever brought on at the same time in a real game. To be fair to Collins he did his job and is probably worth a shot up front but it was funny nonetheless. We are in a huge period of transition. People need to take a dose of reality and realize that Irish football needs a lot of work before we can properly compete with the likes of Serbia. Scotland are a good example to look at. They dug out a result with a similar team to ours with the major exception being that their "weaker" players are still regularly playing in the SPL building form, fitness and confidence.

[Kingdom]

The great thing about Collins goal, is that if results sort of go as planned - portugal take both ourselves and serbia for 6 points, then any crappy dirty 1-0 win against serbia in dublin is enough to take them on the head to head. that goal could be absolutely crucial.

i'm not advocating that we should be expecting to come second, simply advocating that it's important that the campaign stays live as long as possible - particularly into the sept games when we're in a new season.

[Eirambler]

I think it's goal difference in this campaign. Which means if there is a game where we are comfortably winning we would need to hammer that advantage home, just in case we do improve enough to beat Serbia at home and get back in contention later in the group.

[seanfhear]

I think it's goal difference in this campaign. Which means if there is a game where we are comfortably winning we would need to hammer that advantage home, just in case we do improve enough to beat Serbia at home and get back in contention later in the group.
One can dream ! !

[Kingdom]

I think it's goal difference in this campaign. Which means if there is a game where we are comfortably winning we would need to hammer that advantage home, just in case we do improve enough to beat Serbia at home and get back in contention later in the group.
Great shout Eirambler, you're on the money with that one, lazy from me.


One can dream ! !

Dreams are all I have.

[paul_oshea]

A lot of the ex pros seem to have come out saying certain players were poor and/or the performance wasn't that great but also commenting on Serbia. Heres a good one from Richard Dunne, I'd agree with this , as mentioned we seem to overstate, amplify leagues/players/teams:

https://www.sundayworld.com/sport/soccer/we-are-talkingserbia-upas-if-they-are-a-major-nation-theyre-notand-a-moral-victory-isnt-good-enough-40241715.html

Theres another worrying pattern creeping in, that I thought we had kept a lid on. This thing about players coming through and potential and building, have ye not got burned long enough with this? Wishing or hoping and even relying on a player or players to come through? We can't be saying write off this campaign or that campaign and these lads will have experience and the new ones coming through. Just look at hendrick and brady and a few others, they were the future at one point. It doesn't work. We need to focus on the now, we're too small a country with too small a selection to be throwing away campaigns for some future wing and a prayer that we magically discover a few players or all those with "potential" bear fruit and become top players and mainstays of the team. Its living in cloud cuckoo land.

In the meantime though it is good of course to see us trying to play good football. But we need more than just that.

[paul_oshea]

Eh, it’s player of the match. #triggered.

Is this a gender thing? Or simply shortened of "Irish player of the match"

[seanfhear]

A lot of the ex pros seem to have come out saying certain players were poor and/or the performance wasn't that great but also commenting on Serbia. Heres a good one from Richard Dunne, I'd agree with this , as mentioned we seem to overstate, amplify leagues/players/teams:

https://www.sundayworld.com/sport/soccer/we-are-talkingserbia-upas-if-they-are-a-major-nation-theyre-notand-a-moral-victory-isnt-good-enough-40241715.html

Theres another worrying pattern creeping in, that I thought we had kept a lid on. This thing about players coming through and potential and building, have ye not got burned long enough with this? Wishing or hoping and even relying on a player or players to come through? We can't be saying write off this campaign or that campaign and these lads will have experience and the new ones coming through. Just look at hendrick and brady and a few others, they were the future at one point. IT doesn't work. We need to focus on the now, we're too small a country with too small a selection to be throwing away campaigns for some future wing and a prayer that we magically discover a few players or all those with "potential" bear fruit and become top players and mainstays of the team. Its living in cloud cuckoo land.

In the meantime though it is good of course to see us trying to play good football. But we need more than just that.
Tadic was given the freedom of the park to pick out Mitrovic for the third goal certainly.

[paul_oshea]

Tadic was given the freedom of the park to pick out Mitrovic for the third goal certainly.

Ya I didnt want to agree with Brady about Molumby, he was right in one sense that he wasnt good enough, I felt he wasn't physically up to the task , and yes in another game he would have gotten booked for persistent fouling(and probably be less in their faces), but he made it difficult for the Serbs with all the fouling, and pulling them down breaking up their play. That is a good thing to have, its a great to thing to be able to do and get away with it time and again. Whilst he was on Serbia never got into any sorta rhythm really - so he was effective.

[passinginterest]

I think some of the criticism that Kenny wants us to play slowly and keep the ball for the sake of it is miles off the mark. I though it was clear the other night that he wants us to play out very quickly, one touch stuff making angles and working it into the feet of our quick forwards. He still wants to get the ball forward quickly and press, not that different to Big Jack or Mick, the difference is he wants (needs) the extra quick pass or two to create a better quality ball than a 50/50 punt. The other difference is he wants the players to realise that when the quick move is not on, there's much more value in keeping the ball and giving ourselves a breather, than thumping it aimlessly back to the opposition.

There's been some criticism that we should play to our 'strenghts' but what are they? We don't have a premier league big man who can hold it up, we don't have a fox in the box averaging a goal every second game at least, we don't have one the best midfielders or central defenders in the world. Yeah we can pack the defense, but playing that way and hoping to nick one is more and more unlikely in the absence of a Robbie Keane or Quinn, Walter or even a Doyle. Arguably, the strength of this team is a lot of similar players in midfield and up front, relatively good technically, high energy, capable of passing and moving quickly but not necessarily of dominating a game physically or scoring a load of half chances. I think Kenny is really trying to play to the current strenghts and move away from the traditional ones that to be honest we don't actually have at the moment.