England V Republic of Ireland - Thursday, 12th November 2020 - Friendly

[Stuttgart88]

Ireland are playing England this week 3 miles away from where I live and I can barely get excited at all. Partly because I fear we won't be able to compete but also because I just think international football amidst all that's going on just doesn't matter so much.

[RiffRaff]

I'm a bit more optimistic about this game than most. A result and a decent performance and the last 5 matches will be forgotten. IMO the problem so far isn't the lack of an out and out goalscorer its lack of confidence throughout the team in getting forward into good positions and having an attempt on goal. If it clicks in, I think we could be a decent team. 0-2 to us, Hendrick and a Rice OG.

[Bielsa´s irish]

I see Grealish, Rice and Keane will play from the start of this clásico.it is a hunch.

[tetsujin1979]

Stop calling it a clasico, nobody is calling it that

[Razors left peg]

It Stands for Nicholás Chauvin my good man! Eric Howsbawm and Émile Durkheim talked about it as well. The concept of a nation.is chauvinism,

Amazing how good your grasp of language is when it suits you

[Razors left peg]

Normally on the week of a big game like this Id be listening to every podcast possible, reading every article and in general building up a big sense of excitement where I convince myself that we are better than we really are. I think this week the only way I can describe how I feel about it is ... meh!

I think it might be down to how little game time a lot of our players have had with their clubs so far this year. Connolly and Idah who are going to be vital to us especially. Not that I think we have anything to worry about long term with them but I was hoping they both would have scored a few goals and be in good form by the time this stage of the season arrived. I know Idah has been suspended but even so.

Theres no midfield or attacking player in the last month that has excelled for their club to help build the excitement for the game. On the other hand we see Grealish be brilliant for Villa and its just a bit depressing. The narrative around the game is around Rice and Grealish as expected and we could have used something like Connolly getting a few goals recently to pin our hopes to.

All that being said we always raise our game against England. I still think Kenny is on the right track and another week training with him will be good for the team in long run and Im sure by time kick off comes I'll finally convince myself to be excited. I do have the nagging thought in the back of my mind that what a way it would be to kickstart the Kenny era it would be to get a result here with Idah getting his 1st International goal... and so it begins, in the space of writing this post Ive started to convince myself!!!

[tetsujin1979]

As well as that, there's no discussion among fans about who's going to the game - the English, and London in particular, based members of the forum would be organising meet ups. Everyone else would be checking out flight prices, hotel rates, AirBnb, etc, but there's none of that. I'm not a regular at away games, but I've been to most of the games in London since Trapattoni played Colombia at Craven Cottage in 2008, including the friendly in Wembley in 2013.
None of us have been to a live football game in eight months, or more. All games I've seen since then have been on the TV in my living room. I've mentioned it elsewhere, but without the fans at a game, there's no indication from the broadcast on the implications of the game. Is it a cup final or a pre season friendly? Is it a top of the table clash, or an end of season tie between two teams who already know they're staying up? There's no discernible difference. And, unfortunately, international football is in the same boat - turn on any random game this week and (without prior knowledge) you've no way of knowing immediately if there's something at stake - if it's a friendly, or a play off.
Ireland v England should never be "just another game", but this one is. Jock Stein said it decades ago, and if we learn nothing else from this pandemic, we learned that he was right - "Football without fans is nothing."

[Razors left peg]

Very true Tets, I had that conversation with mates this weekend that Im sick of seeing sport without fans. It doesnt have the same intensity and doesnt seem to matter as much. Ive also been watching that Spurs All or Nothing series so the contrast with fans in the stadium in that compared to now is stark. A few months ago were we happy just to get sport back on our screens and if it was taken away again we would hate it, but all of what you say is true.

[tetsujin1979]

Honestly, if elite-level sport was taken away as a restriction due to the pandemic, I'm not even sure I'd notice. At worst, it would mean one less thing to watch on TV. And that's really, really depressing.

I'm not sure if it's a part of the reason, but the results under Kenny so far have been bad. We've only scored once, we're only a four game scoreless run, and all expectations are that we're going to be on the wrong end of a hammering on Thursday night. The performances have been an improvement compared to the last few years, but results mean more when it comes to attracting casual fans.

[Razors left peg]

Sport on TV is the only thing getting me through the whole thing to be honest, even if I am sick of no fans. I cant go back to endless nights of Netflix.

We havent scored in 4 games but that only means we are due a few right? You can justify anything in your head!

As I said previously, if we can score and get result on Thursday, it would be brilliant way to kickstart Kenny tenure and get those casual fans on board. The flip side is that if we got a hammering Im not sure he would recover from it.

[Deckydee]

I think we are due a big win, its been a while. The country and the people need a lift.

[Bielsa´s irish]

At least Seamus and both James Mc will play some we may have some irish pride on the pitch. Its gonna be a hell of a match!

[Fixer82]

At least Seamus and both James Mc will play some we may have some irish pride on the pitch. Its gonna be a hell of a match!

The Ulstermen won't let us down. Unfortunately though, I fear it will be England's first win over us in 35 years

[Bielsa´s irish]

Yeah and some people with thin memory tend to forget his atributes. But I wish we would have more players with McClean attutude on the pitch as well as Coleman and James McCarthy, the latter who i see as our relevant playmaker under the correct coach

[tetsujin1979]

Jude Bellingham added to the England squad after James Ward-Prowse and Trent Alexander-Arnold withdraw: https://www.thefa.com/news/2020/nov/10/england-senior-mens-squad-update-101120

[paul_oshea]

England are playing a mile up the road from me, and I am excited was going to head up around wembley for a gawk. Looking forward to this one as I think its a good test for Kenny, but not too confident around any of our strikers. I urged caution on Connolly and thats proved right, he was given the opportunity with Brighton and he didnt take it. I really hope he can turn things around but I feel hell be a bit part sub for the forseeable. I want to see how this passing along the middle and holding possession works against a top tier side, so hopefully we can hold our own. I am also happy that he has included Collins as a potential plan B, to pull off the bench when the passing doesnt get us goals. We need as many plans/alternatives given our lack of goalscoring prowess.

Watching Roscommon play against Div 2 sides they kept possession around the middle patiently building up play and never giving away the ball and waited to carve out scores, that was all well and good till the came up against a Mayo side with a high intensity and putting serious pressure out in the middle of the field, its a similar thing i want to see Ireland against a proper pressing team. england might not be the Mayo equivalent in footballing terms but there close enough to it

With the news of vaccines and other things I am really worried about how good a Euros it will actually be, and we wont be there. The release and excitement will be immense, it will be like no other, an anathema we wont be there.

[Fixer82]

england might not be the Mayo equivalent in footballing terms but there close enough to it
.

You mean they'll make it to the Euro finals and somehow find a way of losing it?

[Stuttgart88]

England are playing a mile up the road from me, and I am excited was going to head up around wembley for a gawk. Looking forward to this one as I think its a good test for Kenny, but not too confident around any of our strikers. I urged caution on Connolly and thats proved right, he was given the opportunity with Brighton and he didnt take it. I really hope he can turn things around but I feel hell be a bit part sub for the forseeable. I want to see how this passing along the middle and holding possession works against a top tier side, so hopefully we can hold our own. I am also happy that he has included Collins as a potential plan B, to pull off the bench when the passing doesnt get us goals. We need as many plans/alternatives given our lack of goalscoring prowess.

Watching Roscommon play against Div 2 sides they kept possession around the middle patiently building up play and never giving away the ball and waited to carve out scores, that was all well and good till the came up against a Mayo side with a high intensity and putting serious pressure out in the middle of the field, its a similar thing i want to see Ireland against a proper pressing team. england might not be the Mayo equivalent in footballing terms but there close enough to it

With the news of vaccines and other things I am really worried about how good a Euros it will actually be, and we wont be there. The release and excitement will be immense, it will be like no other, an anathema we wont be there.
I certainly don't think that you have been proved right on Connolly. He's 20 FFS. I think there's another high degree of sophistry going on here. I think the highest praise Connolly has received here is people saying he should have started in Georgia. When he came on he did v well, compounding the impression he should have started. For the most part everyone else here has seen the same things anyone has seen in Connolly, a mix of good, bad and outright ineffective. The only real difference is that most of us actually want him to do well. You seem not to.

And I'm not sure I agree with you on the justification for including Collins. A good hold up man is often integral in a good passing side too, and also often integral to an effective 433. Germany were crying out for a good 9 in WC18. Idah doesn't really seem ready for it. Of course if we have to resort to lumping it I'd say Collins is our best bet right now, but I think he's more than that.

[Bielsa´s irish]

with the players at disposal and England playing 3 at the back I would go with 2 guys up front. My team would be something near as

.................................................. .. Randolph......................................

Coleman.............................Long./(duffy)......................Egan................. .....Doherty

Brady.....................................McCarthy----------Hendrick----------------McClean

................................ Robinson----------------------Connolly-------------------

James McCarthy and Seamus have to play otherwise we are doomed

[Bielsa´s irish]

An irish player tested positive

[pineapple stu]

source
1326248567741292544

[Bielsa´s irish]

Yeah, I hope we are not in deep troubles again

[jbyrne]

connolly and robinson out of match. Robinson with covid and connolly injured in training....
https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2020/1111/1177468-connolly-and-robinson-out-of-ireland-squad/

[John83]

Jaysus. At this rate, we might have to get Robbie Keane out of retirement.

Ryan Manning called up, per your link. He's not a forward.

[nigel-harps1954]

Jaysus. At this rate, we might have to get Robbie Keane out of retirement.

Ryan Manning called up, per your link. He's not a forward.

Sean Maguire called up too

[paul_oshea]

Jaysus. At this rate, we might have to get Robbie Keane out of retirement.

Ryan Manning called up, per your link. He's not a forward.

ha an english friend of mine just text me saying the exact same.

I actually think this works in SKs favour, he gets more time with the players available emphasising his gameplan, without the pressure of results. We do need to score goals though, that pressure wont lift but most ordinary supporters in the media and otherwise will be understanding given his luck with players pulling out of squads.

I also think it forces his hand a little with selection and playing different formations/style than he would like, which builds up his repertoire and plan b/c/ds etc. This can only benefit us in the future, as he'll also get to look and give gametime to players who ordinarily wouldnt have got that game time. He should have called up Long though.

[Stuttgart88]

sourceWuhan allegedly.

[DCWA]

Don’t get the Maguire call ups at all

[Razors left peg]

connolly and robinson out of match. Robinson with covid and connolly injured in training....
https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2020/1111/1177468-connolly-and-robinson-out-of-ireland-squad/
Jesus Kenny can't catch a break at all.

McClean Idah and O'Dowda the front 3 Id guess now

[tetsujin1979]

Don’t get the Maguire call ups at all
He did start against Finland, so it's not too surprising.
There has to be at least one player at Dundalk or Shamrock Rovers wondering what he needs to do to get a call up

[Bielsa´s irish]

I suspect Long declined the call-up. And on Manning just for wales and bulgaria

[tetsujin1979]

Suspect differently
1326525706688491522

[zero]

https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/international-soccer/were-not-cursed-kenny-refuses-to-be-downbeat-after-loss-of-connolly-and-robinson-39734798.html

interestingly, SK says that close contact/covid have cost robinson 5 starts (as opposed to caps / opportunities).

[liamoo11]

He did start against Finland, so it's not too surprising.
There has to be at least one player at Dundalk or Shamrock Rovers wondering what he needs to do to get a call up
Who would be in the frame Tets? I ve thought Duffy hasn't been great this season, hoban is no where near this level and greene has lots going for him but poor finisher

[tetsujin1979]

Who would be in the frame Tets? I ve thought Duffy hasn't been great this season, hoban is no where near this level and greene has lots going for him but poor finisher
Murray and McMillan have both scored in the Europa League, so they should be at least worth a look in training. With Stevens out, should the full backs at either club be called up?

[pineapple stu]

Conor Sammon still playing lads - call him up! :p

[paul_oshea]

Murray and McMillan have both scored in the Europa League, so they should be at least worth a look in training. With Stevens out, should the full backs at either club be called up?

I've watched a lot of Dundalk down through the years, McMillan is far too static and slow for kennys game now. HE's good in the air and a decent finisher but we don't seem to want that from our central pairing of the 3.

None of Hoare or Gannon or leahy are good enough going on this season. IF it were any other season id have said shields deserves a call up but hes been too inconsistent.

Scales, grace or kavannagh? Kavannaghs not bad but none of them are good enough to replace either doherty or coleman or even christie for that matter.

[paul_oshea]

https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/international-soccer/were-not-cursed-kenny-refuses-to-be-downbeat-after-loss-of-connolly-and-robinson-39734798.html

interestingly, SK says that close contact/covid have cost robinson 5 starts (as opposed to caps / opportunities).

Ya I had robinson as the main man for a while, looks like kenny sees him that way too. Given our limited options, general unavailability and his playing time though its not a hard one to see. I was begining to get used to the thought of McG and Robinson interchanging.

[Demesne Lad]

Norn Iron often have to 'make do' with League One strikers. I think I'd prefer Paddy Madden to Conor Sammon at this stage -- averaging 13 or 14 League One goals a season for Fleetwood. We don't have many players who just put the ball in the net regularly.

[Stuttgart88]

I don't think this is the time for looking at LOI strikers tbh. For a start, I think Rovers won the league without a standout striker this year, Greene's hold up play is good but is similar to James Collins (already called up) and Collins is a far more frequent goalscorer. I'd say Collins > Hoban and by quite a bit. We have Idah, Maguire and Collins in the squad as well as attacking wide players already. Burke has been good in general play but his 5 against Cork flattered his output for the season.

Also, all our players except Byrne are in UK. This game was scheduled only because NZ pulled out because of COVID. X-border travel comes with risks as we are all too aware, and injury risk is a factor on international breaks. Dundalk have big Europa League and FAI Cup games coming up and imagine if they lost a player due to COVID or injury just so they can have an outside chance of playing at Wembley? Shane Long hasn't even been called up.

I'm all for LOI involvement as you know. But no striker or full back has stood out domestically as being good enough for senior international football imho. Apart from Byrne the standout domestic players have been young players (Scales, Grant etc.) or NI or Cape Verde internationals(!) and they are deservedly being picked for the U21s.

If Jack Byrne - by a country mile the outstanding player in the LOI this year - can't get any action for the senior team then I think it's fanciful to think McMillan is in with a shout too. Come on Tets, you're usually well grounded and rational!

[paul_oshea]

Long was called up, its in the article posted earlier.

I do agree on the Long thing, but given it was in the Uk and he lives around Southampton I'd have thought he would have joined up.

[Stuttgart88]

Norn Iron often have to 'make do' with League One strikers. I think I'd prefer Paddy Madden to Conor Sammon at this stage -- averaging 13 or 14 League One goals a season for Fleetwood. We don't have many players who just put the ball in the net regularly.
Which is why James Collins deserves another look. 1 goal on his debut and a horror show against Georgia. He'd be a regular or v close to the NI team. He plays like yer man Kiefer Moore of Wales, a late bloomer, also Championship. I'm hopeful Collins will bring something to the team in the short term. I think we need an old-fashioned 9 in the box, and not just so we can play direct football.

[Stuttgart88]

Long was called up, its in the article posted earlier.

I do agree on the Long thing, but given it was in the Uk and he lives around Southampton I'd have thought he would have joined up. Hadn't seen that, thanks. But it kind of backs up my point: Long is a more obvious call up than McMillan, for a host of reasons.

[tetsujin1979]

I don't think this is the time for looking at LOI strikers tbh. For a start, I think Rovers won the league without a standout striker this year, Greene's hold up play is good but is similar to James Collins (already called up) and Collins is a far more frequent goalscorer. I'd say Collins > Hoban and by quite a bit. We have Idah, Maguire and Collins in the squad as well as attacking wide players already. Burke has been good in general play but his 5 against Cork flattered his output for the season.

Also, all our players except Byrne are in UK. This games was scheduled only because NZ pulled out because of COVID. X-border travel comes with risks as we are all too aware, and injury risk is a factor on international breaks. Dundalk have big Europa League and FAI Cup games coming up and imagine if they lost a player due to COVID or injury just so they can have an outside chance of playing at wembley? Shane Long hasn't even been called up.

I'm all for LOI involvement as you know. But no striker or full back has stood out domestically as being good enough for senior international football imho. Apart from Byrne the standout domestic players have been young players (Scales, Grant etc.) or NI or Cape Verde internationals(!) and they are deservedly being picked for the U21s.

If Jack Byrne - by a country mile the outstanding player in the LOI this year - can't get any action for the senior team then I think it's fanciful to think McMillan is in with a shout too. Come on Tets, you're usually well grounded and rational!
I think it sends a really bad message to the LOI - if playing, and scoring, in Europe doesn't get you into the national side, not even the squad, nothing will.
Byrne has been the outstanding player in the league this season, and still hasn't seen a minute of football under the new manager, despite being named on the bench twice, and (obviously) the team going goalless both times.

[paul_oshea]

That's a very fair point, i could produce a handful of pieces to back up the same which Kenny said himself back in the day when asked about Ireland squads and his players. It just goes to show Managers should really say nothing about their players as the subjective being objective is never the case.

In Byrnes case given the opposition and the general lack of scoring, and his ability to both shoot from distance and setup scoring chances it does seem shortsighted.

[tetsujin1979]

That's a very fair point, i could produce a handful of pieces to back up the same which Kenny said himself back in the day when asked about Ireland squads and his players. It just goes to show Managers should really say nothing about their players as the subjective being objective is never the case.

In Byrnes case given the opposition and the general lack of scoring, and his ability to both shoot from distance and setup scoring chances it does seem shortsighted.
Could you? Then you probably should.

[Stuttgart88]

Btw, I am now excited by this game :)

[nigel-harps1954]

I think Stutts has it fairly well covered, in fairness. Most of the LOI players worthy of callups, have been called up, or on the edges of international squads.

For those that aren't:

I'd say Sean Gannon is close enough, but he's never going to get past any of Coleman, Doherty or Christie.

Shields is unfortunate, probably deserved a callup last year, but has been more inconsistent this year. If Kenny were in charge 12 months ago, he might have had a shout.

There's not really any strikers in the LOI good enough. Serious lack of quality strikers within the league currently. Burke and Greene don't do it for me, and Rovers probably need a striker going into next year if they want to push on in Europe

[passinginterest]

Interesting suggested lineup from the42 https://www.the42.ie/england-ireland-5263690-Nov2020/
Republic of Ireland (Possible XI): Caoimhin Kelleher; Seamus Coleman (captain), Shane Duffy, John Egan, Matt Doherty; James McCarthy, Conor Hourihane; Daryl Horgan, Alan Browne, Robbie Brady; Adam Idah

In terms of form lines; Finland won 2-0 in France last night and Bulgaria 3-0 winners over Gibraltar.

[pineapple stu]

I think it sends a really bad message to the LOI
Is that important though?

The LoI is a poor league that's going backwards the last few years (certainly in strength in depth, albeit that there's been a few EL group stage qualifications). It's a great league of course, but the point of the national team isn't to give the LoI a hands-up.

Too many LoI forwards have gone abroad recently and flopped - Hoban, Burke, McMillan off the top of my head - for an LoI player to be a serious contender for the national team at the moment unless they're really standing out.