Next Ireland manager?

[pineapple stu]

Go on, I'll start it.

Comments about "There's a game on Tuesday, get behind the team, we're still second and unbeaten", etc, etc all taken and understood.

But this difficult second album/campaign is starting to have echoes of Trap's 2014 campaign - ****e football, and worsening results despite some lucky escapes. And I can't for the life of me see why O'Neill would stay on for a third campaign with no players coming through.

So - whenever it happens, who's in the frame for next Ireland manager?

Chris Hughton? Can the FAI afford to lure someone away from the Premiership?

Mick McCarthy? Would he come back?

John Sheridan? Always seems ready to move up a level, but then gets sacked and ends up back at the third/fourth tier again. Is he really international standard? Can we be that picky?

Stephen Kenny? There's actually no other Irish managers employed in the English league at present, so if an Irish manager is important, Kenny has to be in the mix - but would the FAI trust a LoI manager after the last time? I know I found Kerr's negativity frustrating anyway. I know Kenny's not Kerr, but this is the FAI, and pandering to barstoolers could be important.

Then there's the "someone else" option - but I think O'Neill was fairly unopposed when appointed back in 2013, so who's in this category?

So - quid nunc?

[Park_Lane]

If and when we get a new manager, they need to be open minded with regards to style of play, players available and tactics. I'd hate another "seen it all before manager" to come in and tell us we have crap players and can only play one way. When Mick came in for his 1st stint, he had to upend the squad as it was an ageing team that had been neglected of new faces for years, so he brought through loads of players that were the basis of our team for the next 15 years. He picked players that hadn't even started a game for their clubs and blooded them. I don't think that is needed this time, and I think we just need some one who believes we can play football. You trying to tell me that a midfield that could potentially have Brady/Hendrick/Arthur/McCarthy/McLean can't play football? Course they can and it just needs a coach who believes they can and implements this and our team is transformed. We may miss out on a few tournaments getting it right but shag it its better that the type of football we have been seeing for the last 10 years. Stephen Kenny would be my pick as I know he has a philosophy of playing football. But the FAI are just interested in qualifying by any means necessary, and are probably delighted with the way things are going currently with stonage battering ram football, good it up to the big man.
Sure arent we only a small nation and sure its harder for us to get players with de granny rule now isn't de premiership full of foreign players

[IsMiseSean]

Big Sam?
With the Ruud Dokter working within the FAI, could he tempt a good Dutch manager?

[NeverFeltBetter]

Roy Keane would surely be the front-runner, unless he finds a club job he prefers.

I'm not saying that's the right choice, or my preferred choice, but he'd be in the mix unless the current management teams tenure ends in really bad circumstances.

[Cymro]

Michael O'Neill. Ouch, would that hurt.

[Cymro]

Although obviously the negative football bit would not change.

[Olé Olé]

Happy as is for now but would love to see Stephen Kenny in the future. As above, we have some good midfield players yet last night we had no midfield. It was strange. Kenny has a record of spotting potential and ensuring players fulfill it (okay, Maguire didn't work out great) and plays the right football. Plus it would really help the LOI progress as he would be willing to select players from the league and even more players would be willing to come back or stay in the league for longer.

[DannyInvincible]

O'Neill is more a man-motivator than a strategist/tactician - that has become more and more apparent over time - and we've played some utterly dire, uninspiring and frankly embarrassing football for the overwhelming majority of this campaign. Wasn't it always said that John Robertson (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Robertson_(footballer,_born_1953)) provided the real tactical nous as O'Neill's assistant? He hasn't been with O'Neill since they were together at Aston Villa, which was before 2010. Since then, O'Neill managed Sunderland, which didn't go very well for him and ended with him being sacked in 2013, and was appointed Ireland manager both on account of being available at the time and due to the reputation he'd built up over the years (mainly with Robinson at his side).

I've frequently been prepared to stand up for O'Neill as he has had a nack for getting the necessary result in the end - he has also pulled off some truly memorable results, such as taking four points off Germany in Euro 2016 qualification, impressively negotiating the play-offs against B&H and beating Italy at the Euros - but I've gradually begun to lose faith and perhaps patience over this campaign. And it's not just the last few games; we started things off really badly in Serbia. I think last night's result was one that has been coming for a while (although dropping points at home to Austria was a huge disappointment as well). There's a feeling that we've been "riding our luck" a bit and, somehow, we've been getting away with playing so poorly, up until last night.

The group opener away in Serbia was an awful performance but we somehow managed to scrape through with an undeserved point. We also played very badly in the home game against Georgia and were fortunate to come out on top. We were also really poor and uninspiring at home to Wales and later Austria (up until a desperate push for a winner in the late stages). Even for a long spell away to Moldova, we were frustrated and it looked like a goal might never come, but thankfully it did and we went on to score a third, which provided much relief. It hadn't been a great performance though against a pretty poor side. Indeed, the goal we conceded in that game was unforgivable.

Three points from our last three games is a poor return. The only performance worth talking about so far in this campaign was the away win against Austria, which was admittedly a huge result, but also a huge surprise. It's worth noting that Austria have been proven in this group to be a much inferior team to the level they were at maybe two or three years ago. Wales managed to take a very crucial three points off them at home last night and should have beaten them by more than one goal.

There's almost a sense that O'Neill was finally "found out" last night or that his "luck finally ran out". The personnel selection simply didn't suit the style of play (hoofball) for which he'd apparently opted - Brady was a passenger whilst Long was ineffective - and even when the changes were made (frustratingly, much later in the second half than what would have been the ideal point of half-time), we still totally lacked any sort of organisational structure, cohesion or coherent game-plan. The complete absence of Hoolahan - our most effective and creative player (and the stats back up that contention) - was just odd.

O'Neill can get needlessly defensive and evasive in interviews and press conferences which, as AlanOB pointed out elsewhere (https://tacticstruck2.com/2017/09/02/analysis-general-oneills-luck-is-finally-running-out/), only betrays self-doubt and obvious insecurities. The post-game interview with Tony O'Donoghue on RTÉ last night (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3b7-_ZbZLs) wasn't just personally disrespectful to O'Donoghue (who was simply asking valid and legitimate questions that needed to be asked, and answered); the evasiveness and lack of humility shown after such an abysmal performance was an insult to the intelligence of supporters, analysts and the interested public. There was no need for how he conducted himself there. I used to get the sense he just enjoyed toying with the media from time to time and that the enigmatic aura he transmits or exhibits was part of his dry and sarcastic sense of humour, but, sometimes, you just get the impression he's deflecting, bluffing and spoofing because he's trying to mask faults, weakness and uncertainty.

The puzzling excuses and contradictory explanations regarding Seáni Maguire's belated or overdue call-up to the most recent extended squad, for example, when he could easily have brought Maguire into the Fota Island training camp to have a better look at the player and help him get comfortable with the international set-up (http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/martin-oneill-call-up-to-help-sean-maguire-feel-comfortable-when-he-finally-makes-international-debut-802023.html), his apparent reluctance to give run-outs to the likes of a seriously in-form Daryl Horgan or even Andy Boyle until they moved away from the LOI, despite them performing so impressively against some of the most talented players in Europe, and some odd personnel decisions straight out of left-field (like throwing Kevin Long in against Austria off the back of a few games in the EPL and then dropping him again for no apparent reason or selecting Gary Rogers as third-choice keeper, seemingly just because he was playing for a Dundalk team who were doing well and to give a token nod to the LOI, even though Rogers was/is nowhere near the best keeper in the league) have chipped away at my confidence in O'Neill and had me scratching my head on occasion. Who were the "couple of lads" (http://www.punditarena.com/football/sokeefe/oneill-maguire-ireland-omission/) O'Neill originally claimed (https://www.thesun.ie/sport/football/1001939/martin-oneill-defends-decision-to-leave-cillian-sheridan-and-sean-maguire-out-of-ireland-squad/) were "ahead of [Maguire] in terms of experience" (in order to explain his unwillingness to select Maguire), for example? Adam Rooney is a regular feature in provisional squads and he has zero experience.

He doesn't appear to have made much of an effort to keep tabs on Cillian Sheridan either, who has been in terrific form since moving to Poland, where he's playing at a level considerably superior to the SPL, a league from which O'Neill is evidently happy to select/consider players (Jonny Hayes, Adam Rooney and Danny Rogers, for example). I find that disappointing and, again, his explanation that there are other players ahead of Sheridan in the pecking order sounds like a lazy excuse for simply not having done his homework insofar as he avoided naming these alleged players. Who are they? It was the same dubious excuse he used to explain his previous disregarding of Maguire. Sheridan would offer something different and would be worth devoting greater time and attention to than continually calling a past-it Kevin Doyle into squads. I'm sure there have been some other odd calls/incidents here and there that don't spring to mind right now but have had me thinking O'Neill isn't fully on the ball.

Is Declan Rice off-the-radar again despite a previous call-up to a training squad and starting this EPL campaign in West Ham's first-team? Strangely, he didn't even make the recent extended squad. Then, there's Liam Kelly who would offer some midfield creativity, but is, as of yet, uncapped and regularly misses out on final squads when it would definitely be worth giving the lad a run-out.

If O'Neill was to be replaced - and it's something I'm growing more and more open to because I think there are superior options out there and we could be utilising our talents much better - I'd like to see either Stephen Kenny or Michael O'Neill in charge. Kenny would be the preference. He does a great job with Dundalk on limited resources and has them playing a fantastic and very much watchable brand of football that also happens to bring positive results. Kenny has worked directly with a few of the players in and around the squad before as well - James McClean, Stephen Ward, Daryl Horgan, Seáni Maguire and Andy Boyle, for example - and I'm sure he would command a broad respect, especially from those who came through or played in the LOI and those who may have encountered him already in some form or another due to that. (When Brian Kerr was put in charge of the senior international team, there seemed to be a disconnect or a lack of respect from the players, possibly on account of Kerr's LOI background at a time when our international players simply didn't come through the LOI, save for the odd exception like Jason Byrne or Glen Crowe who didn't receive a huge deal of international recognition anyway, but I would expect a contrast in how the present group of players would regard Kenny.) Michael O'Neill, meanwhile, has NI playing competitive football with a limited group of players, very few of whom would get into our starting line-up. What he's done with them is phenomenal really.

Perhaps Martin will prove me wrong and we'll go out and beat Serbia on Tuesday but I just don't see it happening right now, as much as I'd love it to. He says we're going for the win, but I can just envisage another tepid, lacklustre and disorganised performance that will ultimately end in a disappointing draw after an all-too-late push. A draw might have been acceptable had we beaten Georgia but it will leave us in serious trouble now given last night's results.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Who says Michael O'Neill would want the job?

[DannyInvincible]

True. I wasn't necessarily assuming Michael O'Neill would want it, particularly considering he's doing pretty well where he is and is on his way to guaranteeing a play-off place for NI tomorrow night. He's just someone locally-based who I'd be happy to see get the job if it became available and he was willing, so that's why I mentioned him.

Just something further that came to mind on O'Neill's seeming neglect and repeated omission from even provisional squads of Cillian Sheridan, which I think to be pretty shabby and unsatisfactory...

In an interview with 'Off the Ball' (https://soundcloud.com/offtheball/martin-oneill-playing-days-pundits-roi-recruitment) about three months ago, O'Neill made the following complaint when asked about the Irish media's questioning of his squad selections:


"The questions will always be about the players you haven't picked, y'know? About 'why are you not picking that lad who is playing outside left in the Siberian league?'

Well, actually, y'know, I haven't had a chance to see him playing and, actually, he's 36 and didn't make the grade at Shamrock Rovers.

So, if the people asking the questions actually went and sat down and tried to analyse before they actually asked the questions, they might think 'mmm, this is actually pretty ridiculous', so let's go and concentrate on the players that we have."

Except nobody's asking that ludicrously distorted straw man "example" of a question, which, considering there had been articles and talk in the media at the time asking O'Neill to consider Sheridan and Seáni Maguire, obviously contained a veiled and exaggerated reference to those calls for Sheridan's inclusion in squads, as if the player is playing in some obscure league in the far east or mightn't be worthy of consideration because he "didn't make it" in the SPL with Celtic. Once again, O'Neill was using his sarcasm to deflect from a legitimate question about his methods.

It's entirely reasonable that O'Neill would be expected to keep a very close eye on Sheridan's impressive progress in Poland. If O'Neill can follow Kevin Doyle (who's actually much closer to 36 than Sheridan is) playing MLS in the US, he can certainly do his homework on Sheridan in Poland. He has plenty of time to arrange a flight to Poland and go over and watch Sheridan play if he somehow doesn't have access to match footage. This is the information age, after all, and the age of cheap flights. In fact, O'Neill said in a press conference last March that he would try and get over to Poland to see Sheridan play (http://www.punditarena.com/football/sokeefe/sheridan-potential-ireland-recall/), but clearly nothing has been done on that front.

I just had a look at the Georgia squad and they have players from 16 different leagues in their current squad. That means their manager has had to keep track of all these players playing in each of those 16 different leagues across Europe (plus those possibly playing in other leagues who might have missed out on selection). Quite a few of those leagues are of much lesser renown than the Polish league. Serbia's manager has players from 12 different leagues in his squad. Martin O'Neill, on the other hand, more or less keeps track of what's going on in one country - England - or two/three at a push (if you include Scotland and perhaps the US, considering Doyle plays there, or Ireland, considering he attends the odd LOI game, although it's hard to know whether that's an aspect of his PR duties with the FAI or if he's on serious scouting missions then). Adding Poland to his itinerary shouldn't be that big a deal. Other international managers have much tougher assignments when it comes to keeping track of their players scattered across Europe or the globe and they manage it just fine.

To implicitly denigrate Sheridan on 'Off the Ball' for plying his trade in Poland in order to try and defend or justify the fact O'Neill himself couldn't be bothered to spend time monitoring the player just because he plays outside the traditional sphere of consideration/observation is a bit shabby, in my opinion.

To disparage Shamrock Rovers and employ them as the butt of his caricature was also a bit unseemly and uncalled for in light of the fact they're one of the biggest clubs in the country in which he manages and are the leading LOI club in terms of youth development in Ireland. You'd wonder is O'Neill even aware of the promising work being done there. I don't think you'd ever find, say, Gordon Strachan ridiculing a potential Scottish international for "not even making the grade at Celtic/Rangers/Aberdeen" or using such a detail as a yardstick by which to measure or prove that player's alleged failure or irrelevance in the world of football. I couldn't imagine him being so disrespectful towards his own country's clubs or casually dismissing its national league as a laughing stock. When Trap ignorantly claimed (http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/fury-over-trapattonis-there-is-no-league-in-ireland-claim-29565859.html) there was "no league in Ireland" (despite a number of his players having come through it), he was rightly criticised.

[gastric]

Pretty disgusted with this thread. Yes, we were horrible against Georgia, but this is the sort of thread, I would expect from English supporters. Debating about the manager's future is tabloid crap at best. Get behind the manager and team ffs and let's get a win on Tuesday. It's this type of mentality that paralyses England who are more afraid of losing than going after a win. This attitude is now beginning to affect Ireland. Get over yourselves!

[DannyInvincible]

There are legitimate questions to be asked of O'Neill on account of repeatedly dire performances and some odd calls (which have been outlined above), yet he frequently dodges them. There's no point papering over the cracks, putting our heads in the sand and having blind faith if we want what is best for the team. I don't think anyone's sincerity in wanting what is best for Ireland can be questioned. O'Neill should have been able to answer in a courteous manner the entirely reasonable questions Tony put his way post-match.

All that I've said doesn't mean either that I won't be giving my full support and hoping desperately for a win on Tuesday. I will happily eat my words of doubt if we win.

Also, I don't think anyone has actually explicitly called for O'Neill's sacking, so it's not quite a baying mob or anything of the sort just yet.

[gastric]

O'Neill has what is a mediocre, aging squad. Yet we have not lost a game in qualifying and may possibly qualify for consecutive tournaments for the second time ever. If we qualify, he will probably be then labelled a genius. Unfortunately we don't have enough quality players to successfully play an out and out passing game. I wholeheartedly agree it is absolutely crap to watch, but that's where we are at. What I find annoying is premature, kneejerk reactions which don't reflect the complete reality of the situation.

[DannyInvincible]

Unfortunately we don't have enough quality players to successfully play an out and out passing game. I wholeheartedly agree it is absolutely crap to watch, but that's where we are at. What I find annoying is premature, kneejerk reactions which don't reflect the complete reality of the situation.

I disagree. If Dundalk can do it against Zenit or Rosenborg and be seriously competitive, Ireland can do it against the likes of Georgia. And we do have the personnel to keep the ball on the ground and pass it around midfield. McGeady, Hoolahan, Brady, Hendrick, McCarthy, Arter, Horgan, Kelly, O'Kane, Gibson and Hourihane are all talented, technically-capable and/or creative players who can do things with the ball at their feet in the middle and/or final thirds of the park.

[pineapple stu]

Unfortunately we don't have enough quality players to successfully play an out and out passing game. I wholeheartedly agree it is absolutely crap to watch, but that's where we are at. What I find annoying is premature, kneejerk reactions which don't reflect the complete reality of the situation.
Sorry, this is complete crap. This is a video of UCD's match against Slovan Bratislava in the Europa League two years ago (skip to 40:20; I can't find how to put on a time-stamp) -

eHxgN9W7xVA?t=40m20s

It's a team of part-time and amateur students putting together 24 passes before creating a great chance (probably should have been a penalty and a red card in the end) against a side full of international players, three of whom had played at the World Cup and a fourth of whom was well on the way to playing in the Euros.

Yes, Slovan were down to ten at the time, but if an LoI First Division side can play like that against a much better team, than Ireland, with players in one of the top leagues in Europe, don't need to hoof the ball aimlessly and hopefully against a much worse team.

[nigel-harps1954]

I don't buy this crap about average players. It's been covered well enough in previous posts so no point going into it too much, but any professional footballer knows how to pass the ball five yards to his team mate.

This brutal football comes from the manager and nobody else. It's been the case for Martin O'Neills entire management career and is not going to change.

Someone like Stephen Kenny would be a great choice for manager and not afraid to play a bit of football and give young players a chance to break through.

[Fizzer]

I don't get it Danny,did Dundalk not lose 3 out of 4 of those fixtures?what do we want here,to be plucky losers? No thanks I'd rather qualify,the hysteria here after a poor draw is laughable,not from you Danny in particular but when are people going to get realistic?,we are a teeny nation punching above our weight and a win tomorrow away from being top of the group.there are no points for performance only for results,therefore the performance is irrelevant,let's get there first.
We tend to put in our best performances when we're actually at a major tournament.

[osarusan]

we are a teeny nation punching above our weight
Not against Georgia we weren't...it's one thing to watch a dismal performance like that against a team that are actually very good, but it's another to watch it against a team that really isn't that good at all.

The 'we're just a small team with average players' argument only takes you so far, and for me, it stops before it reaches Georgia.

They didn't take possession and territory off us, we simply handed it to them. That was our own doing, not theirs, and we should always be critical of that.

[Gather round]

Next supremo odds:

Michael O'Neill 6-4
Michelle P. O'Neill 7/3
Alexander O'Neal 5/1
Shaquille O'Neal 10/1
Captain and Tenille 25/1
Craig Levein 33/1
Berti Vogts 50/1

[DeLorean]

There are legitimate questions to be asked of O'Neill on account of repeatedly dire performances and some odd calls (which have been outlined above), yet he frequently dodges them. There's no point papering over the cracks, putting our heads in the sand and having blind faith if we want what is best for the team. I don't think anyone's sincerity in wanting what is best for Ireland can be questioned. O'Neill should have been able to answer in a courteous manner the entirely reasonable questions Tony put his way post-match.

The match threads or Martin O'Neill thread could have been used to discuss all that. Despite massive frustrations, this thread doesn't sit well with me either and I agree with Gastric (in post #11) completely.

[backstothewall]

Big Sam?
With the Ruud Dokter working within the FAI, could he tempt a good Dutch manager?

Martin Jol maybe?

I reckon we will get a win against Serbia tomorrow and this whole thread will be null & void

[IsMiseSean]

Martin Jol maybe?

He's the first name that came to mind. He's been unemployed since his Fulham days AFAIK.
If it were to happen, we could see Robbie Keane join the backroom team in some form. I don't know what their relationship was like at Spurs.


I reckon we will get a win against Serbia tomorrow and this whole thread will be null & void

I'm starting to think we'll win too, but that hope will be cruelly crushed tomorrow when the starting XI is named at 6.30 with Glenn Whelan included.

[seanfhear]

Surely Eamonn Dumby has to be given a shot.........

[nigel-harps1954]

Next supremo odds:

Michael O'Neill 6-4
Michelle P. O'Neill 7/3
Alexander O'Neal 5/1
Shaquille O'Neal 10/1
Captain and Tenille 25/1
Craig Levein 33/1
Berti Vogts 50/1

You're missing the obligatory Joe Kinnear link.

[Eminence Grise]

Surely Eamonn Dumby has to be shot.........

Fixed that for you.:cool: But if the firing squad is coached by MON, we'll be a long time waiting for someone to hit the target!

[IsMiseSean]

We can't talk about a new Ireland manager without the great Philippe Troussier being mentioned.

[DannyInvincible]

I don't get it Danny,did Dundalk not lose 3 out of 4 of those fixtures?what do we want here,to be plucky losers? No thanks I'd rather qualify,the hysteria here after a poor draw is laughable,not from you Danny in particular but when are people going to get realistic?,we are a teeny nation punching above our weight and a win tomorrow away from being top of the group.there are no points for performance only for results,therefore the performance is irrelevant,let's get there first.
We tend to put in our best performances when we're actually at a major tournament.

The point or difference is that Dundalk were expected to lose all four of those games yet they were seriously competitive in all of them. The results were all very tight - 2-1 losses and a 1-1 draw - and Dundalk had their chances too. Paddy McEleney's delicate chip clipping the cross-bar in Russia springs to mind. The Zenit manager, Mircea Lucescu, actually praised Dundalk as the best footballing side they'd encountered in their Europa League group (https://www.balls.ie/football/the-best-team-is-dundalk-zenit-manager-pays-lofty-compliments-to-dundalk-europa-league-350796) last season. Zenit were on the budget of a Champions League team and possessed genuinely world-class players (Axel Witsel, for example), whilst Rosenborg were the seeded side and we all know their European pedigree.

It's also worth nothing that the goals Dundalk conceded in each of those games were generally down to frustrating/soul-destroying individual errors, lapses in concentration or poor defending from individuals at set-pieces rather than as a result of the system being exposed. Dundalk defended with composure otherwise and were never cut open due to any lack of cohesion or poor organisation. Indeed, they were a header against the crossbar away from knocking Rosenborg out and it took a goal for Rosenborg in extra-time of the second leg to eventually pull them through.

Besides, Dundalk have managed very impressive results against other perceived superior opposition on much higher budgets too, such as BATE, Legia, Maccabi Tel-Aviv and AZ by playing attractive passing football on the ground. They wouldn't have achieved those results and come so close to qualifying for the Champions League or then qualifying from their Europa League group (they were a result away from progressing going into the final round of games) had they gone out and sat back, tried to soak up pressure and hoofed the ball forward for 90 minutes each game.

Ireland, on the other hand, should be beating or at least dominating a team ranked 112th by FIFA and 93rd in the Elo rating system. Our players play at a much higher level than Georgia's do and we've got greater strength in depth. We didn't get the result we wanted on Saturday through playing conservative hoofball anyway, so you can't even defend our overly cautious approach on the basis of the final outcome (which was undesirable and is the basis on which you've dismissed as deficient the way Dundalk played against Zenit and Rosenborg). You could maybe defend playing the way we played last Saturday if we wanted to play for a draw and keep things tight against an elite side, but there's absolutely no justification for sending a team out to play that way against lowly Georgia, even if it is away from home. We actually didn't even press them when they were in possession. The "teeny nation punching above our weight" rallying cry simply doesn't apply when the opposition is Georgia.

You can say qualification is ultimately more important than the performance - I'm inclined to agree with such a sentiment - but three points from our last three games and the manner in which we "won" those three points simply isn't qualification form anyway. We're in trouble now if we don't win tomorrow night and the likelihood of us winning is slim. Kolarov and Matić, who didn't play against us in Belgrade, will line out against us tomorrow night and Serbia's form has been on the up as the group as progressed. Our form trajectory has been heading in the other direction.

The "hysteria" - or valid concern, to be more accurate - isn't simply as a consequence of the 1-1 draw in Georgia. I think the performances in general this campaign have been gradually chipping away at people's faith in the management team and, for many, Saturday came close to a sort of "straw that broke the camel's back" moment. If we're similarly uninspiring and tepid on Tuesday (and we're further subjected to a similarly evasive and intelligence-insulting post-match interview performance by O'Neill like the one we saw after Saturday's game), that may well prove the final straw for many.

And surely there's a direct connection between better performances and winning more points. The better you consistently perform, the greater chance you give yourself of winning more points. It's not as if it is a case of having to choose between one or the other or as if the two possibilities exist in isolation of one another.

As for putting out best performances in at the final tournament, that's not much use if we don't qualify (which is rare besides). And sure weren't our performances (and results) - playing drab, conservative football, I might add - at Euro 2012 utterly atrocious? We were the worst team in terms of both performances and results at the tournament.

If we win tomorrow, it'll be fantastic and will bring us right back into contention. I'll be delighted, but I'm afraid the evidence of prior form hasn't inspired me with much to feel confident about. Even today, O'Neill was playing down our abilities again in his press conference, talking about how "inferior" we supposedly are and how his players are "not the most talented" (https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2017/0904/902184-ireland-oneill-serbia/) group of players ever to play for Ireland. He evidently doesn't trust his player's abilities. How will the players feel about his lowly opinion of them and the fact he felt the need to express such an opinion publicly (in order, I suspect, to pre-emptively protect his own reputation in the event of another poor performance and result)? I'm sure such words don't inspire them with a huge deal of confidence either.

O'Neill also made the following comment earlier, which I felt was revealing: "We’re going to try and win the [Serbia] game and if we can’t win the game we are going to try and get something out of the game." Unfortunately, I think he might have let the actual game-plan slip there... He doesn't truly believe we can win if he's conceding the possibility of settling for a draw; a win should be the only outcome on his mind right now, but he's clearly already entertaining the winning of a mere point. It's depressing. I know that winning three points would be the only thing on Stephen Kenny's mind right now if he was in charge.

We're all enthusiastically expecting a big reaction to the embarrassment of Saturday night, but such optimism is based more on blind hope than evidence; judging by O'Neill's words, it's going to be more of the same dreaded overly-cautious bile tomorrow night. :bad:

[tetsujin1979]

On the Rosenborg point, remember they were eliminated by Celtic in Norway. It'll be interesting to see how they do in the Europa League. Also, Kenny was relegated from the Scottish Premier League in his only real test outside the League of Ireland. I know it was ten years ago, but IMO that (along with Roddy Collins at Carlisle) held back any other club taking a chance on a League of Ireland manager.

I'm' tired of reading the same arguments over and over when it comes to new managers

We should appoint a League of Ireland manager, he won't ignore the league. Which ignores that Brian Kerr played Jason Byrne for about 2 minutes at the end of a friendly
We need a manager that can connect with the players. Which ignores Steve Staunton was a former teammate of half the squad, it didn't work
We need a manager that speaks the same language as the players. Which ignores that only one manager was ever appointed that didn't have English as a first language. He qualified us for a tournament for the first time in a decade
We need a strict disciplinarian. Which ignores that Trapattoni dismissed players from the squad for breaking his curfew
We need a manager that understands the Irish mentality. Which is every Irish manager, except one.


Find new arguments

[TrapAPony]

Sam Allardyce would be my choice. Knows the English leagues inside out, wouldn't have a problem convincing lads to come on board, suits our footballing style, had a spell here already at the beginning of his career and has a 100% record as an International manager.:p

[osarusan]

I know it was ten years ago, but IMO that (along with Roddy Doyle at Carlisle) held back any other club taking a chance on a League of Ireland manager.

The multi-talented Roddy Doyle;)

Kenny isn't anywhere near the Ireland job, and rightly so.

What he did in Europe with Dundalk was groundbreaking, but if somebody who had the equivalent achievement elsewhere (domination of a similar-level league and 4 points in a Europa League group) was being mentioned, people would be far from overwhelmed. What he has done with Dundalk would probably have got him an English job now if he hadn't already done so poorly in Scotland. He may still get a job there anyway.

[DannyInvincible]

What's Terry Venables up to these days?

[DannyInvincible]

Kenny isn't anywhere near the Ireland job, and rightly so.

What he did in Europe with Dundalk was groundbreaking, but if somebody who had the equivalent achievement elsewhere (domination of a similar-level league and 4 points in a Europa League group) was being mentioned, people would be far from overwhelmed. What he has done with Dundalk would probably have got him an English job now if he hadn't already done so poorly in Scotland. He may still get a job there anyway.

Why exactly do you feel Kenny isn't near the job besides the fact people might find such an appointment underwhelming? Is it to do with the Dunfermline blot on his CV or some other issue(s)?

Michael O'Neill got the NI job off the back of his domestic and European achievements with Shamrock Rovers and that's been a stunning success for the IFA. Prior to Rovers, he'd managed Brechin City in the Scottish second division. Would you regard Michael O'Neill as being up to the Ireland job?

[tetsujin1979]

For me, it's that he's still unproven at the top level. Six games in the Europa League isn't proof, but I will concede it's a start. The Irish FA chose O'Neill almost by default, nobody else wanted the job, the FA couldn't afford anyone with a higher profile, and it worked out better than anyone could have hoped.

[gastric]

I would agree with Tets that while Michael O'Neill has done an excellent job, but he like Kenny is unproven at the top level. The suits too are still scarred from their appointment of Kerr and Staunton and will look for an experienced pair of hands.

Back to reality. I think it is a bit ridiculous to compare LOI game style with that of international football. Should we compare the Championship with the English International team or how Inverness play with the Scottish International team? They are two different and unique beasts. Domestic teams can develop game styles on a regular basis and managers can buy players to suit. International football is completely different. No control over depth, make up or quality of players. Different levels of football as well. The Europa League is not the same standard as international football. One small mistake in international football can undo two years of work, hence the absolute need to minimise any mistakes
Danny mentioned Irish players earlier on this thread who are good passers of the ball and I would wholeheartedly agree with his list. But this is missing the real coaching issue. It is not these players that worry coaches from a game style viewpoint. It is the ones who can't pass the ball under pressure who determine a team's style. And O'Neill and Keane are acutely aware of this, just like Trappatoni before them. We don't have enough quality in the squad to take risks. We also lack real on field leaders and a player with the x factor like Bale. The coaches are working to the team's strengths. Their job is to get us to a World Cup. They are doing this job quite effectively. They are meeting the brief from the FAI. In saying all of this, our style of play is boring and I hate how we play, but in a result driven game, it is hard to argue with our campaign so far.

Richie Sadlier writing in a weekend newspaper, commented on our age profile, our increasing reliance on English born players and the lack of youth development in Ireland. Our continued present success on the field is masking this issue, and bizarrely I feel we might actually need to fail over a period of time to ultimately see these issues tackled and a solid future plan developed to enable ongoing success.

[samhaydenjr]

If we're talking about things falling apart in the coming weeks, which hopefully they won't, you'd have to say Chris Hughton is the obvious choice. As an alternative, how about Howe? Eddie, that is, who has managed to take a team of limited resources right up the league ladder to The Premier League and, very relevantly from an Irish point of view, took on an underage international who had dropped into non-league football and took him all the way up with the club and on to a burgeoning international career with us

[bennocelt]

On the Rosenborg point, remember they were eliminated by Celtic in Norway. It'll be interesting to see how they do in the Europa League. Also, Kenny was relegated from the Scottish Premier League in his only real test outside the League of Ireland. I know it was ten years ago, but IMO that (along with Roddy Doyle at Carlisle) held back any other club taking a chance on a League of Ireland manager.

I'm' tired of reading the same arguments over and over when it comes to new managers

.


Find new arguments


A manager that can actually coach?:D

[osarusan]

Why exactly do you feel Kenny isn't near the job besides the fact people might find such an appointment underwhelming? Is it to do with the Dunfermline blot on his CV or some other issue(s)?

Michael O'Neill got the NI job off the back of his domestic and European achievements with Shamrock Rovers and that's been a stunning success for the IFA. Prior to Rovers, he'd managed Brechin City in the Scottish second division. Would you regard Michael O'Neill as being up to the Ireland job?

Michael O Neill was a risky appointment that worked out incredibly well. I'd regard him as being up to the Ireland job now, definitely, as he has proven his ability to get the very best out of a limited squad in international football.


Kenny would also be a risky appointment that might work out very well, but might also work out very badly. I don't see the need to take that risk with the kind of money we are currently able to offer a management team. For that money, I don't want the Irish manager's job to go to anybody who is unproven beyond LOI or leagues of similar standard (and to a slight extent, Europe).

[tetsujin1979]

If Kenny was appointed, and he wasn't a success, then it would be a massive blow to the league and pretty difficult for any manager to put himself forward for the national side

[Diggs246]

Lets just steal Michael O'Neill, it would be worth it just to see teh head on the Nordies

[swinfordfc]

What have we to lose on Kenny? ... It could not be much worst that watching the rubbish that was Saturday night! ... His team in fairest try to play the ball on the ground ie football! ... If it dies not work out, then fine but at least give him a chance! Playing big money for a manager doesn't always work out either!

[backstothewall]

We have never had any success from trying to play football.

Any time we have got anywhere over 30 years it has been by playing a high tempo direct game. Why on earth would we try playing a short passing, possession based game again?

We never have more than a couple of players capable of doing it it at once. It doesn't work for us. Never has. Never will.

When O'Neill goes we will need someone similar to him.

[Closed Account 2]

If we wait a bit Slaven Bilic could be an option.

[tetsujin1979]

What have we to lose on Kenny? ... It could not be much worst that watching the rubbish that was Saturday night! ... His team in fairest try to play the ball on the ground ie football! ... If it dies not work out, then fine but at least give him a chance! Playing big money for a manager doesn't always work out either!

Our current, and previous, managers are probably paid more than any other manager we've had. Both qualified for tournaments.

[jbyrne]

We have never had any success from trying to play football.

Any time we have got anywhere over 30 years it has been by playing a high tempo direct game. Why on earth would we try playing a short passing, possession based game again?

We never have more than a couple of players capable of doing it it at once. It doesn't work for us. Never has. Never will.

When O'Neill goes we will need someone similar to him.

I think some of the football played by mick mccarthys teams was good.

[DannyInvincible]

We have never had any success from trying to play football.

Any time we have got anywhere over 30 years it has been by playing a high tempo direct game. Why on earth would we try playing a short passing, possession based game again?

We never have more than a couple of players capable of doing it it at once. It doesn't work for us. Never has. Never will.

When O'Neill goes we will need someone similar to him.

When have we really ever tried it with a proven manager who does it competently though? I think Stan tried to play a more attractive style of football, but he wasn't even remotely near proven when he was appointed Ireland boss - it was his first ever managerial job - and he was actually pretty naive tactically, as it turned out.

You could maybe say Mick tried it a bit, particularly when he had Roy Keane commandeering the midfield - receiving, controlling and distributing possession - but Mick did well overall, did he not? He utilised the more direct long ball too when Niall Quinn was playing, but it wasn't all route one. He qualified for the World Cup and narrowly missed out on a few other finals in the play-offs, so I think his record was more positive than negative. We don't have a Roy Keane (or Duff or Robbie) playing any more, admittedly, but surely it doesn't mean we have to just by-pass midfield when we're playing teams ranked below 100th in the world. We do have midfielders and attacking players (I've listed them in an earlier post) who are competent with the ball at their feet and who are able to distribute it effectively. The football world has moved on but we have decided to stick to old, out-moded methods for whatever reason.

Whether a more passing-based game would bear fruit or not in the long-run is at least presently still a matter of debate. It's something I think is worth trying, however, because one thing for sure is that the way we played against Georgia the other night clearly didn't work, and that was against one of the weaker sides in Europe. And it won't work if we continue with it either. It didn't work against Austria at home, where we dropped two points that would have come in very handy right now.

Nobody's saying we have to play like Germany, Spain or Barcelona, but we could at least try and mix things up a bit more. Like, we genuinely didn't even string more than four or five midfield passes together at any point on Saturday. There was no diagonal movement or fluidity at all. Even when we did use the long ball, it was aimless and into vacant space on many occasions. We didn't even press Georgia when they were in possession. There was simply no intensity. In the players' defence, perhaps the heat was a factor, but it didn't seem like there was any instruction or intent to do it anyway.

We can't even utilise our wing-backs effectively either. Coleman is the most notable example; at Everton - with his overlapping runs - he has always been a completely different proposition to the player we see in an Ireland jersey. For Ireland, he frequently has to carry the ball up the field himself from right-back in an overall more laboured fashion in order to unleash his attacking threat upon the opposition.

Not once on Saturday did Randolph go for the short pass. He booted it long every single time. Any time Duffy or Clark had the ball, Whelan pointed in another direction (to indicate he didn't want it) and they had to resort to playing it out to Christie, who, on a few occasions, if I recall correctly, was caught out because he was under immediate pressure as soon as he received the ball, so we just ended up relinquishing possession or giving away a throw-in in our own half. The furthest up the field we got with any attempt at a "passing game" was our right-back. I don't understand why Arter wasn't coming back to receive the ball. Perhaps he was instructed to be elsewhere, but Whelan's presence in that area - for all the supposed defensive benefit in terms of his covering of space and preventing potential opposition passes in our half* - undoubtedly stifles any capability we have of passing the ball around midfield and holding on to possession.

Something I've also noticed watching bits of NI's two most-recent games and a few others over the past while is that they're creative even with their set-pieces. They have players making clever runs into good positions to receive the pass whilst the opposition is caught off-guard and under the impression that a shot at goal or a cross is on the cards. I've never seen us attempt anything unconventional or imaginative like that at set-pieces. Our set-pieces are just one-dimensional; a case of lumping the ball into the box in the hope that one of our taller players can be successful in trying to get his head on it (https://www.balls.ie/football/watch-martin-oneill-shane-duffy-goal-372728). It works now and again, sure - Duffy's goal on Saturday, for example - but it's definitely another area where we could put a bit more thought into things and mix it up a bit.

Stephen Kenny's Dundalk, for example, play attractive (and effective) football but they also defend with composure and don't tend to leave themselves exposed. I do accept points raised above in relation to Kenny's experience though; he isn't proven at international level so could reasonably be regarded as a risk when perceived safer options may be available.

*Worryingly, Whelan's utility and effectiveness even in that defensive or covering role was in question (https://www.sportsjoe.ie/football/glenn-whelan-ireland-georgia-135885) on Saturday.

[RiffRaff]

I think O'Neill and Keane will move on after the World Cup. In which case Kenny would be my choice, he seems to be able to give players belief in themselves. The Europo League campaign might not have been earth shattering but I never thought I would see a League of Ireland team compete at that level in my life time. Rovers got there and looked completely out of their depth. Dundalk were in with a shout of getting out of the group until the last couple matches

[seanfhear]

Tony O' Donoghue

It would be good to see how he is on answers........as he can be a bit of a smart ass with the questions.......

[backstothewall]

I think some of the football played by mick mccarthys teams was good.

No. His teams played like this 1st 20mins. Don't confuse football with entertainment.

We are direct, aggressive and high tempo. Nothing to do with keeping the ball.

This is as good as we get

[Cymro]

I would agree with Tets that while Michael O'Neill has done an excellent job, but he like Kenny is unproven at the top level. The suits too are still scarred from their appointment of Kerr and Staunton and will look for an experienced pair of hands.



I just have to jump in on this, even as an outsider. You can't seriously compare Michael O'Neill and Stephen Kenny to Steve Staunton. Michael O'Neill and Kenny have achieved outstanding feats in European competition with Irish teams, to the point where people outside Ireland, like myself, have sat up and taken notice, because the results have been so remarkable and unexpected. They also both have significant management experience (mostly successful) in other roles. Steve Staunton on the other hand had no previous management experience and, with the greatest of respect to him as a man and player, probably wasn't the right personality for management.

The reason I mentioned Michael O'Neill initially (I'm glad my recommendation is proving so popular, if the FAI would be so kind as to forward my 20% commission to an undisclosed address in the Cayman islands which will be discussed at an informal lunch, I - oh wait, not supposed to mention that, right)

Anyway, as I was saying, the reason I mentioned O'Neill for the Republic job in future was in part because of his record with Northern Ireland but also partly the achievements with Shamrock Rovers. It seems logical that if a manager has punched above his team's weight consistently in the past then they should be able to make the step up to a higher level.

Personally, I would also give Kenny a chance. He has enough experience of European club football to make a decent fist of an international job.

[gastric]

I just have to jump in on this, even as an outsider. You can't seriously compare Michael O'Neill and Stephen Kenny to Steve Staunton. Michael O'Neill and Kenny have achieved outstanding feats in European competition with Irish teams, to the point where people outside Ireland, like myself, have sat up and taken notice, because the results have been so remarkable and unexpected. They also both have significant management experience (mostly successful) in other roles. Steve Staunton on the other hand had no previous management experience and, with the greatest of respect to him as a man and player, probably wasn't the right personality for management.

The reason I mentioned Michael O'Neill initially (I'm glad my recommendation is proving so popular, if the FAI would be so kind as to forward my 20% commission to an undisclosed address in the Cayman islands which will be discussed at an informal lunch, I - oh wait, not supposed to mention that, right)

Anyway, as I was saying, the reason I mentioned O'Neill for the Republic job in future was in part because of his record with Northern Ireland but also partly the achievements with Shamrock Rovers. It seems logical that if a manager has punched above his team's weight consistently in the past then they should be able to make the step up to a higher level.

Personally, I would also give Kenny a chance. He has enough experience of European club football to make a decent fist of an international job.

Where did I compare Kenny and O'Neill to Steve Staunton? I was referring to the fact that anything that might be deemed risky will not occur as the suits at the FAI have been scarred in the past. If O'Neill does stand down after this campaign, you can be guaranteed a safe, experienced manager will be their first choice. Someone like Hughton rather than someone like Kenny or O'Neill.