Next Ireland manager?

[Deckydee]

Hi All,


Quick question, did we ever have a really embarrassing defeat under McCarthy? Under Stan we had the San Marino debacle, the 4–0 thrashing by Holland and of course, can we forget > Cyprus. Under Trap there was the Germany hiding and to be fair that is the only one I can think off.


For MonKeano I can think of the Belgian game (for me anyway, I live here :o) ) and of course The Denmark and Wales games.


Was there one actually really bad game that sticks in the long term memory?

These ones above are really embarrassing so at least we wont have any more of these nights..............will we?????????

[Kingdom]

I can certainly think of one, but not too many.

[pineapple stu]

Probably the worst result under Mick was the 0-0 at home to Iceland, and there was also the 4-2 escape in Reykjavik in the same campaign.

I don't think we had a really bad defeat. Only competitive losses were Romania away in 98 qualifying, Yugoslavia and Croatia away in 00, Iran away in 02, and then Russia and Switzerland in 04.

[geysir]

It's linked a couple of pages back. Kilbane named players who he he felt would either know very little about Kenny or not know him at all. He never said they wouldn't respect him, he actually pointed out that he never said this. So yes, I suggest you go look. :)
You're right, the respect word was not used by Killer but he pretty much used many negative impressions/beliefs that most of the players 'would certainly have' to support his argument that Mick would have more immediate impact and players would respond, therefore Mick would be a better appointment for qual 2020. Kenny for a longer term.
I happen to agree with Keith Andrews who, when quoted correctly :), reduces the value of that instant impression to zero and states with confidence that Kenny would quickly make up for any lost ground with his managerial nous and imo character and personality.

Micks 3 second advantage would vapourise. Killer just caught up into overplaying the impact of this first impression.

[Kingdom]

Eh MAcedonia lads. It's kinda gone down in folklore.

[pineapple stu]

Oops!

(And of course we also lost to Belgium away in that campaign)

So his only competitive home defeat was his last game.

Obviously a completely different scenario now.

[DeLorean]

Only competitive losses were Romania away in 98 qualifying, Yugoslavia and Croatia away in 00, Iran away in 02, and then Russia and Switzerland in 04.

You've had a Macedonia there Stu :)

(Edit: Damn, too late!)

[pineapple stu]

Can't even do a sneaky ninja edit now :o

[Kingdom]

McCarthy's Park got an airing on twitter in the last night or two. Paints him in a relatively decent light (it focusses on his first campaign).
He made mistakes but nothing outrageous. After that first campaign he won the games against lower seeds, was competitive away against higher seeds, and generally won at home against higher seeds. A repeat of that is the minimum required.

The fear is that we never looked like winning* a big game away from home under Mick.

Romania, Belgium, Croatia, Yugoslavia, Turkey, Portugal, Iran, Russia. Not once in any of those games did we look like we believed we were capable of winning. That's not great. Is it a mindset? You could argue that Mick was central to the good days under Jack where they didn't really do a massive one away from home (again the caveat is "when did we ever?") either, so is it a mindset? You'd hope things would change in the intervening period, but I'm not sure if Mick's teams at Sunderland or Wolves ever did massive underdog away victories either?

*the caveat is the Netherlands game as the exception to that rule. We should have won, didn't and could easily have lost it at the end of 90mins.


I'm not displeased that Mick McCarthy has been given the job, and I wouldn't denounce him as a result of it. I just think this was a time to be ambitious, send a clear signal about the priorities of getting the system right, the style right, and promote local deserving talent. I don't believe we've done that.
Am I happy we've changed manager, absolutely I am. I think this is a little tough on Kenny, particularly if they pressure him to take the 21's.

People referring to going down the Paul Cook route....Paul Cook went home. He went back to the Northwest, to Accrington. It just happens to be in the English league system.
I don't want Stephen Kenny to go there, because frankly I don't want any Irish football people going there. I want them to develop here, or to go to mainland Europe. Why should Stephen Kenny have to uproute his family to go through the ringer of the football league that very few Irish fans give a **** about anyway. His style of football won't suit there.
I hope he gets a good run in the CL with Dundalk, gets them to perhaps the group stage of the EL again, and perhaps get offered a gig in Germany or Belgium, where he might get a bit of respect, and with a bit of luck we've performed well under Mick and Kenny gets the chance after Qatar 22 to take the big job.

[Deckydee]

Thinking of my own experience with the McCarthy regime.....I remember 2002, we played Russia in a friendly and we played them off the field. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2laTkj59zvQ


In my own experience and i say my own, I dont think I have ever seen Ireland play as well as they did that night and I am 39 now, so I have seen a lot. To this day, for me, it was one of the best performances I have seen.


On a personal note, it was one of the first dates I had with my then girlfriend (now wife) and we watched the match in O'Reillys in Brussels on the big screen. It was a funny old night, the manager of the bar put us up higher than the English who were, the same night, playing also. Dear Lord, the songs we sang. A great night,lets hope for more.


Cant remember the score of the English match though :) :)

[mark12345]

Totally in agreement
McCarthy's management career highlights :
Millwall got to the playoffs
Ireland last 16 of World cup
Wolves: Promoted to Premier league
Sunderland: Promoted to Premier league

Kenny:
Highly successful within the League of Ireland but not beyond that

All true. But once we become embroiled in qualifying for 2020, Mick will be on his bike and all of the underlying problems surrounding Irish football will be forgotten like they never even existed.
We'll give it our all in every game. A large amount of pride in the Irish team will be restored and when all is said and done we'll still possess the football like it's a hot potato.
Stephen Kenny has his finger on the pulse locally - he offered hope for change, starting at the bottom and working all the way up to the senior team.
Had he been given the job I feel he would have changed the domestic game to complement the international setting.
Unless he is installed as assistant manager to Mick, I believe we will have missed the boat for the 179th time as far as fixing the problems which beseige Irish football is concerned.

[mark12345]

McCarthy's Park got an airing on twitter in the last night or two. Paints him in a relatively decent light (it focusses on his first campaign).
He made mistakes but nothing outrageous. After that first campaign he won the games against lower seeds, was competitive away against higher seeds, and generally won at home against higher seeds. A repeat of that is the minimum required.

The fear is that we never looked like winning* a big game away from home under Mick.

Romania, Belgium, Croatia, Yugoslavia, Turkey, Portugal, Iran, Russia. Not once in any of those games did we look like we believed we were capable of winning. That's not great. Is it a mindset? You could argue that Mick was central to the good days under Jack where they didn't really do a massive one away from home (again the caveat is "when did we ever?") either, so is it a mindset? You'd hope things would change in the intervening period, but I'm not sure if Mick's teams at Sunderland or Wolves ever did massive underdog away victories either?

*the caveat is the Netherlands game as the exception to that rule. We should have won, didn't and could easily have lost it at the end of 90mins.


I'm not displeased that Mick McCarthy has been given the job, and I wouldn't denounce him as a result of it. I just think this was a time to be ambitious, send a clear signal about the priorities of getting the system right, the style right, and promote local deserving talent. I don't believe we've done that.
Am I happy we've changed manager, absolutely I am. I think this is a little tough on Kenny, particularly if they pressure him to take the 21's.

People referring to going down the Paul Cook route....Paul Cook went home. He went back to the Northwest, to Accrington. It just happens to be in the English league system.
I don't want Stephen Kenny to go there, because frankly I don't want any Irish football people going there. I want them to develop here, or to go to mainland Europe. Why should Stephen Kenny have to uproute his family to go through the ringer of the football league that very few Irish fans give a **** about anyway. His style of football won't suit there.
I hope he gets a good run in the CL with Dundalk, gets them to perhaps the group stage of the EL again, and perhaps get offered a gig in Germany or Belgium, where he might get a bit of respect, and with a bit of luck we've performed well under Mick and Kenny gets the chance after Qatar 22 to take the big job.

I like your optimism Kingdom. I too believe that this was the time to stop taking the path of least resistence and go down the right road with Kenny. He offered hope for change, proper change to coach kids playing the proper way. I would suggest however that even if Stephen Kenny were to make the semi-finals of the Europa League with Dundalk, the FAI would turn to someone else to manage the national team. Mr Delaney needs to get a proper pair of glasses to correct his shortsightedness.

[mark12345]

Back in 2002, I was very much pro-Keane and anti-Mick. Now, with the benefit of hindsight, I realise that they were just two personalities who really don't get on. Roy is a good guy, Mick is a nice guy. So I have nothing against Mick any more and appreciate everything he gave for the cause as player and manager. I just don't think we should be overselling him as a management genius of some kind. He has his shortcomings. He is a very similar manager to Martin O'Neill. He could well come in and motivate the players and get them to qualify. But we have to ask ourselves what direction we want to go in. Do we want the quick fix or do we risk doing something new? Usually we go for the quick fix, but we might be back asking the same questions in four years from now if we do that again.

Brine, you should by a Lotto ticket tonight, because you have just seen four years into the future. Everything you said will come true and you're right, we will be sitting here in four years (or less) wondering why we are asking the same questions with the Irish team unable to hold possession for more than two seconds, and not a creative midfielder in sight.

[mark12345]

I would love to know if the FAI have any particular criteria they are looking for, a list of specific strengths which match the squad needs for example, or similar criterion...or is just whether somebody is 'good enough' or not.

Their particular criteria is the following: Bums on seats at the Aviva, Bums on seats at the Aviva x 10, qualification for a major tournament............................and 999th onthe list - the long term development of Irish football

[mark12345]

He is right in some ways. Re the instant respect issue, who would likely get Declan Rice on board, Mick McCarthy or Stephen Kenny?

With all due respect. We have to stop chasing the Declan Rice's and Jack Grealish's of the world. Put as much time and effort into developing the game at home and you won't have to. It would be slightly different if they were swimming across the Irish sea to wear the green shirt, but that is not the case.

[mark12345]

Good on him.

I suspect any "Mick is set to agree terms" leaks to the press are for the FAI to gauge public reaction.

I'm actually quite pro-Mick but over the last 18 hours I think I have swung towards Kenny.

It has to be Kenny. Mick would be deserving of the job if it was under normal circumstances, but these are not normal circumstances. Mick's appointment will just herald another two years of kicking the can down the road.

[mark12345]

in my 30+ years following ROI mccarthys teams played the best football. Always got the best out of players and very successfully reinvented stan as a ctre back in the team for example.
he fell out with Roy and nobody else.

it cant be over stated just how important it is that we hit the ground running with our next match being a qualifier in march with no friendlies before that. in that case mick is the best choice. kenny would need a few matches to find his feet and we dont have that luxury this time around

We don't have two years of luxury under Mick. When do we rip up the system and start afresh? Mick will certainly not make that part of his agenda. He'll be all about results and who can blame him.

[Stuttgart88]

I think making the right U21 appointment will help join things up. Mick may not seamlessly connect the U17s to the seniors but I'd say the seniors will be less primitive than under MON and with the U21s being seen as an important link between what seems now to be working well U15-U19, things may work themselves out. It's a bit of a big ask of a new senior manager to connect everything up by himself. U21s will be critical. The near-medium term future will depend on the likes of Ryan Nolan and Caoimhin Kelleher, neither of who was even considered by King.

[Diggs246]

Any evidence for that?

Well, we all know Alex FFerguson's conduct in relation to his players international careers. He wasnt in favour ..lets me honest.
In Dec 1999 we are drawn in the group of Group of Death Holland and Portugal
In Jan 2000 Denis Irwin retires from Ireland
You dont need to be Hercule Poirot to fill in the blanks

[geysir]

I can't say I'm au fait with Mick's career since he left Wolverhampton. Brian Kerr said he was impressed with Mick in their recent encounters, "he knows the game", probably Brian's highest accolade :)
When the draw happens, the plot to qualify can begin.

[tetsujin1979]

Well, we all know Alex FFerguson's conduct in relation to his players international careers. He wasnt in favour ..lets me honest.
In Dec 1999 we are drawn in the group of Group of Death Holland and Portugal
In Jan 2000 Denis Irwin retires from Ireland
You dont need to be Hercule Poirot to fill in the blanks
that's the weirdest way I've seen someone say "no, there is no evidence" ever

[samhaydenjr]

I feel oddly nervous about this decision. There's part of me that is delighted to see Mick given another shot, given the way he was forced out, and particularly as it comes at Keane's expense. But I feel a little subdued about it, and I think it has to do with the timing - if Mick had been in the job since the start of this year I'd probably have felt much better about it as he would have had time to settle back into the role at the same time as building the team up. First time round in 1996 he started with a record of five defeats and two draws in friendlies and the 1998 campaign was so-so at best. This time he will be going straight into competitive action.

Also, I know a lot of people have complained about Ireland's performances under O'Neill recently, but I noted months ago that this was a transitional phase with new players coming in, some key players out injured, and O'Neill trying out a new formation and said that the results and performances could well be below par. I know he got ridiculed for playing Cyrus Christie in central midfield, but what are you supposed to do when half your available Premier League players are right-backs? Our lack of goals and chances is certainly a big worry but our defence tightened up after the Wales debacle, and we only conceded twice in our five games since then, keeping our Danish tormentors scoreless over 180 minutes and picking up a couple of points which could yet prove valuable in getting a place in the play-offs - and our team was still largely made up of players with fewer than a dozen caps.

On the other hand, I didn't have the misfortune of sitting through the games and perhaps I would have a harsher view of O'Neill if I had - was there really little or no improvement over the last eight months or so? Plus hearing of the rudimentary nature of training sessions, with little or no focus on setpieces, and seeing the possession stats does make me think that it might have been time for MONKEANO to go. Fans complained that Trap didn't believe enough in his players but MON's philosophy seemed much worse than Trap's. And one of the great things about the team when Mick was in charge was the belief that, while they acknowledged defeat was possible, they believed that victory was always possible and often likely and thus knew that there was no reason to be afraid and played that way.

So, maybe the draw will be kind and give us a couple of easier games to start the qualifiers with so that Mick can get settled. And hopefully we'll see a couple of youngsters break through between now and then and some of the players MON brought in over the last few months will step up a gear and that, at the very least, we'll be competitive when the play-offs roll around in March 2020, assuming we make it. And of course Mick always led us to second place in qualifiers, which will be enough this time around

[DeLorean]

Thinking of my own experience with the McCarthy regime.....I remember 2002, we played Russia in a friendly and we played them off the field. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2laTkj59zvQ


In my own experience and i say my own, I dont think I have ever seen Ireland play as well as they did that night and I am 39 now, so I have seen a lot. To this day, for me, it was one of the best performances I have seen.


On a personal note, it was one of the first dates I had with my then girlfriend (now wife) and we watched the match in O'Reillys in Brussels on the big screen. It was a funny old night, the manager of the bar put us up higher than the English who were, the same night, playing also. Dear Lord, the songs we sang. A great night,lets hope for more.


Cant remember the score of the English match though :) :)

Had to go look!

They drew 1-1 away to Holland. Decent looking lineup on paper, if a little uneven - http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/world_cup_2002/1816114.stm

[Olé Olé]

Now that it looks inevitable that Mick is getting the job, do people think Kenny would take the under 21 role if, as reported, he was offered it? It's a tough one. Big year for Dundalk in Europe and it's not the most glamorous position but it gets his leg in the door. Hard to know what to think.

[pineapple stu]

It's his choice. I'd like to see him take it as a stepping stone to something bigger. Problem is our 21s have historically been really crap, so it's hard to see how you'd measure success. Slightly less crap?

[Olé Olé]

It's his choice. I'd like to see him take it as a stepping stone to something bigger. Problem is our 21s have historically been really crap, so it's hard to see how you'd measure success. Slightly less crap?
He could get the under 21 job with a role that is broader than just the under 21 manager and has a development role at that level. It would be nice to see a cohesive approach being taken between the success we are having at 17, 18 and 19 level right up to Kenny at 21 level.

That's all very blue sky. He's more likely to be offered the under 21 job and be told prove himself at that level before he gets any shout at the senior role.

[brine3]

Mick is on 1.2 million a year.

Morten Olsen was appointed Denmark manger in 2000. He was manger there for, what, 16 years? They paid him 400k a year. His job also included overhauling the youth system and installing a footballing ethos from top to bottom, and integrating the domestic and international game.

MON's final game in charge was against Denmark. It was like night vs day. Our conclusion was to sack MON, spend 48 hours thinking about his replacement and in the end hire the poor man's MON.

It's like some kind of tragic comedy.

[Fixer82]

Everyone talking about O’Neill’s poor record and Kerr’s amazing record.
But, what do the stats look like if we take friendly games out of the equation. Because under Kerr we were amazing at winning friendlies.

[Straightstory]

Kenny could probably do the under 21s and the Dundalk job. If he left Dundalk for full time U21s that’s a major step down. Hope he makes major inroads with Dundalk in Europe. Ultimately that’s more beneficial to Irish football than whatever McCarthy does with the international side.

[tetsujin1979]

Everyone taking about O’Neill’s poor record and Kerr’s amazing record.
But, what do the stats look like if we take friendly games out of the equation. Because under Kerr we were amazing at winning friendlies.

I'd struggle to name one memorable win under Kerr, and it's even harder if you restrict it to qualifiers

[ifk101]

I'd struggle to name one memorable win under Kerr, and it's even harder if you restrict it to qualifiers

2 European Championships. Memorable?

But yeah, Kerr's results at senior level were ultimately not good enough and there were no "memorable" wins and yes there were "memorable" wins under MON.

But if we going to compare MON and Kerr as senior managers, if should be remembered MON qualified us just once, for a championship with 24 teams. The same championship was 16 teams in Kerr's time.
And Kerr was on less than one fifth of MON's salary.

[IsMiseSean]

Everyone taking about O’Neill’s poor record and Kerr’s amazing record.
But, what do the stats look like if we take friendly games out of the equation. Because under Kerr we were amazing at winning friendlies.

Kerr P16 W7 D7 L2 GF19 GA10

O'Neill P32 W12 D12 L8 GF39 GA30

[Fixer82]

Kerr P16 W7 D7 L2 GF19 GA10

O'Neill P32 W12 D12 L8 GF39 GA30

Nice one. Quite similar except with O’Neill on double the amount of losses on average.
2 of those competitive losses include the Nations League of course

[Stuttgart88]

Whatever about the stats (and O’Neill’s away stats were singularly impressive I’d say) we became unwatchable and quite frankly a soft touch at home. This began under Trap in fairness. Jon Walters says we play like the away side at home and this has to change. Under Mick I remember losing a couple of home friendlies (Greece and Scotland I think) and a couple of key games like Switzerland but generally you could turn up at home and be really confident of a win in Mick’s first spell. The tricky eastern European team home games were usually comfortable enough 2-0s. When MON came in I thought we’d be likely to see a rerun of Celtic’s home European nights. Hard fought high-tempo tight games with set pieces deciding games in our favour, in front of full houses and big atmosphere. The home games were nothing of the sort.

I’m actually of a different view to samhaydenjr here. If the job came up a year ago it’d have been Kenny all day long for me. The fact that we’re straight in to qualifying now changes that.

And we all accept the point about transition but O’Neill was making a balls of the transition. Selections were erratic and often incomprehensible. I’d have been happy to lose every game if there were signs of something new emerging but the signs just got worse. Whatever about what Doherty said, what Hourihane said was telling. The younger guys needed direction and they got none.

I really hope the U21s becomes a big thing. Does anyone know what Kenny earns at Dundalk? Pay him 50-60k extra, 4 year contract, wide remit, tell him he is senior underage coach. That said, for the only time in my life I might agree with bennocelt! Maybe the best thing for Kenny right now is a good CL campaign. I feel for Kenny but I hope his time comes.

[shakermaker1982]

Why are we paying 1.2m a year? If we are getting a Championship manager pay championship wages.

[TrapAPony]

On twitter it is being reported by some journalists that McCarthy is getting the job until Euro 2020 with Stephen Kenny as the new U21 manager. Kenny will take over from McCarthy after 2020. Supposedly to be announced tomorrow at 3pm.

[centre mid]

On twitter it is being reported by some journalists that McCarthy is getting the job until Euro 2020 with Stephen Kenny as the new U21 manager. Kenny will take over from McCarthy after 2020. Supposedly to be announced tomorrow at 3pm.
The FAI actually making a long term progressive decision? We've never been here before

[seanfhear]

The FAI actually making a long term progressive decision? We've never been here beforeThere is probably a big meteorite on its way ! ! !

[tetsujin1979]

Not sure what that says to Kenny. "You're not good enough now, but you might be in two years, and *if* you are then you can have the job we're giving to someone else"

[SkStu]

If it’s true, it’s probably the best outcome we could have hoped for. A good decision.


Not sure what that says to Kenny. "You're not good enough now, but you might be in two years, and *if* you are then you can have the job we're giving to someone else"

If Kenny is okay with it, that’s all that really matters.

[mark12345]

Mick is on 1.2 million a year.

Morten Olsen was appointed Denmark manger in 2000. He was manger there for, what, 16 years? They paid him 400k a year. His job also included overhauling the youth system and installing a footballing ethos from top to bottom, and integrating the domestic and international game.

MON's final game in charge was against Denmark. It was like night vs day. Our conclusion was to sack MON, spend 48 hours thinking about his replacement and in the end hire the poor man's MON.

It's like some kind of tragic comedy.

Says it all for me. Hire a man and ask him to transform the whole system for a third of what we pay our manager. I'm sure the FAI would have got Kenny for 400k. Kenny is capable of doing a job with the home based youngsters and possibly yielding much better domestic players in ten years time. But hey who cares about the future when you've got all the money in the world

[SkStu]

Confirmed by the way: https://www.rte.ie/amp/1013087/?__twitter_impression=true

Happy with this.

[tetsujin1979]

Need to think about it. It gives Kenny the experience at international level people were saying he was lacking for the senior job. On the other hand, what happens if Mick does an amazing job?

[pineapple stu]

Yeah, I agree. Kenny can learn a lot from a two-year involvement with the national team. Obvious issue is what happens if someone who got Dunfermline relegated turns out not to be up to the Ireland role in two years' time.

Slightly surprised Mick is ok with the deal, but if he can do half as good a rebuilding job as last time, it'll be a good appointment.

Though there is a slight feeling of the FAI playing to the populist gallery in it all.

[SkStu]

Need to think about it. It gives Kenny the experience at international level people were saying he was lacking for the senior job. On the other hand, what happens if Mick does an amazing job?

Then he’ll have paved the way well for Kenny.

**shrug**

[SkStu]

Though there is a slight feeling of the FAI playing to the populist gallery in it all.

Which is ok as long as it makes sense.

[pineapple stu]

Which is ok as long as it makes sense.
I agree. I just wonder have the FAI thought about it at all or just acted blindly?

Though let's not forget the fact that they were probably considering options a while ago.

Overall, I do think it's a good option though

[Olé Olé]

The FAI actually making a long term progressive decision? We've never been here before

Was about to say the same thing. Really happy with this.

From Mick's perspective, he's 61 in 2020 and he's earned 2.4m in the previous 2 years. Would he even want to continue? I'm sure that was discussed.

[Stuttgart88]

I’m really happy with this even if it shores up JD’s position.

A guy comparing Kenny to Michael O’Neill on Twitter made me think: ONeill did/does a super job but he had a nightmare first year. We can’t afford that.

The U21s being managed properly for once is going to be crucial. We know the 19s are a good bunch. The continuity will be great.

I wonder what Dokter’s position is if Kenny also has oversight from 15s up. I think he’s primarily a planner / structure designer rather than a coach / coach motivator so I expect he stays. I’d say he deserves too, to be fair.

And Dundalk will be weaker :)

[tetsujin1979]

I’m really happy with this even if it shores up JD’s position.

A guy comparing Kenny to Michael O’Neill on Twitter made me think: ONeill did/does a super job but he had a nightmare first year. We can’t afford that.

The U21s being managed properly for once is going to be crucial. We know the 19s are a good bunch. The continuity will be great.

I wonder what Dokter’s position is if Kenny also has oversight from 15s up. I think he’s primarily a planner / structure designer rather than a coach / coach motivator so I expect he stays. I’d say he deserves too, to be fair.

And Dundalk will be weaker :)

Closer to three years, he didn't get his second win until 31 months into the job. Lost to Luxembourg, and Azerbaijan in that time.