Richard Keogh

[tricky_colour]

Feck, I hate that. I would have thought with the foundations belonging to foot.ie, an apostrophe would have been necessary. Obviously not and good to know.

I agree with you it's seems perfectly logical, problem is seems language developed before logic.

Sometime I find when writing a complicated statement that it would be much easier to do in a computer language
which has clearly defined consistent rules.


For example

"John gave the ball to peter and then he went home"

Who went home? And why? And how do you change it such the other person went home?

[Charlie Darwin]

John went home because he's the subject of the sentence. To change it you say Peter went home.

[Stuttgart88]

Sometimes I find when writing a complicated statement ....

For example

"John gave the ball to peter and then he went home"

Sorry, do you think that's complicated?

[DeLorean]

Sorry, do you think that's complicated?

I would say it's Tricky :)

[tricky_colour]

John went home because he's the subject of the sentence. To change it you say Peter went home.

So if it was

John kicked Peter in the head and he fell to the ground.

Who falls to the ground?

[texidub]

What sort of ball is it?

[tricky_colour]

Sorry, do you think that's complicated?

Yes it is not very clear to me or at least there are cases where things are not clear.
Might not have been the best example.

[tricky_colour]

What sort of ball is it?

On the balance of probabilities it is was probably a tennis ball as he gave rather than kicked it.

[Charlie Darwin]

So if it was

John kicked Peter in the head and he fell to the ground.

Who falls to the ground?
Peter must have a pretty solid head because John fell over. Language is obviously flexible so you could take it either way and in the context you'd probably assume Peter fell.

[tricky_colour]

Peter must have a pretty solid head because John fell over. Language is obviously flexible so you could take it either way and in the context you'd probably assume Peter fell.


Well this is what I mean, things are not as clear as they could be, I mean kicking so high might have unbalanced John
causing John to fall to the ground.

[Charlie Darwin]

Yeah but John is the active subject of the sentence so he is the "he" in question unless explicitly stated. If it was "Peter was kicked in the head by John and he fell to the ground" it would Peter falling over because he's the active object.

[tricky_colour]

Yeah but John is the active subject of the sentence so he is the "he" in question unless explicitly stated. If it was "Peter was kicked in the head by John and he fell to the ground" it would Peter falling over because he's the active object.

I like to treat all people in a sentence equally.


The problem is the english language is inadequate in many cases.

We really need another pronoun to go with he and she, but indeed we do have one. Whom.

So it should be:-

John kicked Peter in the head whom fell to the ground.

Do peter fell, it John fell

John kicked Peter in the head who fell to the ground.

Trouble is nobody uses whom.

[tricky_colour]

Actually it may well be that Pete dived.

[DeLorean]

Man of the match tonight in 1-0 win against QPR.

[geysir]

That would be a higher rating than Richard Dunne?

[Charlie Darwin]

I like to treat all people in a sentence equally.


The problem is the english language is inadequate in many cases.

We really need another pronoun to go with he and she, but indeed we do have one. Whom.

So it should be:-

John kicked Peter in the head whom fell to the ground.

Do peter fell, it John fell

John kicked Peter in the head who fell to the ground.

Trouble is nobody uses whom.
You're a bit confused here. Whom is never the right word to use here.

Peter falls: John kicked Peter in the head, who fell to the ground
John falls: John kicked Peter in the head and fell to the ground.

The placement of the pronoun isn't the problem here, it's the fact that both object and subject take the same pronoun. Usually, they're not the same, so you get:

John kicked the box and it fell to the ground
or
John kicked the box and he fell to the ground

So it's pretty clear in both instances what happened.


Man of the match tonight in 1-0 win against QPR.
Clearly overrated.

[tetsujin1979]

Clearly overrated.
He'll be wanting a call up next, mark my words.

[tricky_colour]

Interesting comment here!!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2556233/Derby-1-0-QPR-match-report-John-Eustace-header-closes-gap-Harry-Redknapps-men-race-promotion.html
I am a Derby County supporter but I thought they were lucky to win. Our passing was awful and we lost possession far too easily. Keogh easily man of the match and surely a future star for man Utd and England.:confused: I thought that QPR were a very aggressive and physical side. I also thought that Joey Barton should have had more than one yellow card and possibly should have had a red one. Cannot see Derby being promoted on this performance. Sorry

[Crosby87]

I think that guy had a few pops.

Everytime I go to the dailymail my computer slows to a crawl. They have some serious cookies going on there.

[SkStu]

Yeah but John is the active subject of the sentence so he is the "he" in question unless explicitly stated. If it was "Peter was kicked in the head by John and he fell to the ground" it would Peter falling over because he's the active object.

Whatever, you're both wrong.

It was John kicked Eyal in the head etc etc.

[Charlie Darwin]

Whatever, you're both wrong.

It was John kicked Eyal in the head etc etc.
Antisemitism!

[tetsujin1979]

I think that guy had a few pops.

Everytime I go to the dailymail my computer slows to a crawl. They have some serious cookies going on there.
all part of how they get more traffic than any other newspaper site in the world. They keep track of what stories you've read, and insert ones you're more likely to read into the column on the right.
Of course, you can just block them with plugins like Ad-Block

[tricky_colour]

I think that guy had a few pops.

Everytime I go to the dailymail my computer slows to a crawl. They have some serious cookies going on there.

Might be worth trying adblock on it depends what the problem is, I have fairly new computer, and it's fine on all sites
really unless I have filled all the memory up.
It's an intel i3 which is a long way from top of the range, best thing about it is it low power, only 35 watts so it is very quiet
the fans never really comes on. On my old computer it sounded like a plane taking off when it it when the fan kicked in
which was quite often on sites with a lot of graphics or advertising, so hopefully it will save a bit on the electric bill..

[gastric]

Interesting comment here!!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2556233/Derby-1-0-QPR-match-report-John-Eustace-header-closes-gap-Harry-Redknapps-men-race-promotion.html
I am a Derby County supporter but I thought they were lucky to win. Our passing was awful and we lost possession far too easily. Keogh easily man of the match and surely a future star for man Utd and England.:confused: I thought that QPR were a very aggressive and physical side. I also thought that Joey Barton should have had more than one yellow card and possibly should have had a red one. Cannot see Derby being promoted on this performance. Sorry

At least TOWK will be happy as Keogh can 'whinge' about not getting called up by England!

[tricky_colour]

Yes he turned down England and they still won't call him up!!

[gastric]

Charlie,

Just throwing this in to help you with your English teaching!


http://www.businessinsider.com.au/weird-sentences-2014-1

[Stuttgart88]

I only saw the second half last night, and even then while I was doing other stuff, but Keogh was colossal. He won everything in the air. I know there's more to being an international CB than winning headers and he could have Douglas Bader syndrome for all I know but he exuded leadership last night.

He came across as a nice guy in the post match interview too and guess what, he wasn't asked about Ireland so he didn't say anything about Ireland. I question his loyalty :)

Sammon had an effective late cameo. Dunne lost his patience a bit, jumping in to tackles when QPR were chasing the game, Doyle ran the channels but touched the ball about 3 times and Hendrick was outshone by more pacy midfield teammates. I didn't notice him at the start so I'm guessing he came on as a sub when I wasn't watching.

SKY gave Keogh a deserved MOTM.

[DeLorean]

Hendrick came on for the injured Hughes but would probably have replaced him regardless. To be fair, Bryson is the midfielder with the licence to get forward. I'm sure McClaren would have instructed Hendrick to sit back and remain disciplined. He didn't get on the ball much though, the guy from the Daily Mail was right about Derby's inability to retain the ball but I'd put that down to nerves and a lack of composure on the night. I agree about Sammon, made me think he could still be useful in certain circumstances for us from time to time.

[Stuttgart88]

Do peter fell, it John fell

I thought Jim fell?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=het1kl-A8qw

(You need to be of a certain age to remember this)

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

I think that guy was being sarcastic about Keogh being a future Man Utd and England player.

Damien Delaney should be LCB and one of O'Shea, Dunne or Clark should partner him in the next campaign.

Keogh is an option. So is Pearce who is equally highly rated at Reading. We shouldn't forget St Ledger, who is proven at this level of football. Next year is make or break for him and also Shane Duffy. Marc Wilson, Paul McShane and Darren O'Dea too are naturally options.

When we have so many options at the back, I don't see the need to put in an unproven 28 year old centre-back.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

You're a bit confused here. Whom is never the right word to use here.

Peter falls: John kicked Peter in the head, who fell to the ground
John falls: John kicked Peter in the head and fell to the ground.

The placement of the pronoun isn't the problem here, it's the fact that both object and subject take the same pronoun. Usually, they're not the same, so you get:

John kicked the box and it fell to the ground
or
John kicked the box and he fell to the ground

So it's pretty clear in both instances what happened.


Clearly overrated.

Pearce is one of Reading's most highly rated players. Duffy is one of Yeovil's most highly rated players. Delaney is one of Crystal Palace's most highly rated players. Dunne, O'Shea, Clark and Wilson speak for themselves. What I say about Keogh is not a slight on him. It is an indication of the depth we have in defence. Is he genuinely going to get ahead of any of those players in the pecking order?

I haven't even mentioned St Ledger, McShane and O'Dea. The latter two get some savage abuse but they have both been solid for Ireland whenever they have played. Easy to overlook that O'Dea played in Moscow too.

[DeLorean]

I think that guy was being sarcastic about Keogh being a future Man Utd and England player.

Damien Delaney should be LCB and one of O'Shea, Dunne or Clark should partner him in the next campaign.

Keogh is an option. So is Pearce who is equally highly rated at Reading. We shouldn't forget St Ledger, who is proven at this level of football. Next year is make or break for him and also Shane Duffy. Marc Wilson, Paul McShane and Darren O'Dea too are naturally options.

When we have so many options at the back, I don't see the need to put in an unproven 28 year old centre-back.

Nobody is saying Keogh should start. Nobody is even saying he should be in the squad.

It is clear that your 'first hand' evaluation of Derby being where there are "in spite of Keogh and not because of him" was complete rubbish.

Damien Delaney is also unproven at international level (even allowing for a couple of good months in the PL) and he is four years old than Keogh.

You have said that Keogh is a decent option... you have also said that he isn't capable of the step up to international football. Which is it?


*Edit- Delaney actually turns 33 before Keogh turns 28.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Nobody is saying Keogh should start. Nobody is even saying he should be in the squad.

It is clear that your 'first hand' evaluation of Derby being when there are "in spite of Keogh and not because of him" was complete rubbish.

Damien Delaney is also unproven at international level (even allowing for a couple of good months in the PL) and he is four years old than Keogh.

You have said that Keogh is a decent option... you have also said that he isn't capable of the step up to international football. Which is it?


*Edit- Delaney actually turns 33 before Keogh turns 28.

We should be selecting the best performing players for the upcoming campaign, which includes players like Damien Delaney and Andy Reid. Delaney is more proven than Keogh. He has played virtually his entire career in the second tier, has played for Ireland, intermittently I admit, since 2008 and has stepped up to the PL. If we take his age into account then we must do same with O'Shea, Dunne, Reid, Hoolahan and Keane.

I have seen Keogh first hand, admittedly not this season.

[DeLorean]

You're the one who brought age into it, feeling the need to point out that Keogh is 28 (aging the poor guy seven months I may add).

I see you only dealt with the points that suited you yet again, really discredits your contributions overall if you don't mind me saying.

[geysir]

Is Keogh on the callup ......# list yet?

[CraftyToePoke]

I have seen Keogh first hand, admittedly not this season.

But isn't it this seasons showing from him dictates this discussion re; Ireland, the origin and very nature of it ?

[Charlie Darwin]

Pearce is one of Reading's most highly rated players. Duffy is one of Yeovil's most highly rated players. Delaney is one of Crystal Palace's most highly rated players. Dunne, O'Shea, Clark and Wilson speak for themselves. What I say about Keogh is not a slight on him. It is an indication of the depth we have in defence. Is he genuinely going to get ahead of any of those players in the pecking order?

I haven't even mentioned St Ledger, McShane and O'Dea. The latter two get some savage abuse but they have both been solid for Ireland whenever they have played. Easy to overlook that O'Dea played in Moscow too.
I don't really see why not. We have a glut of centre halves who would all be of a similar standard, have similar playing backgrounds and similar potential. Duffy and Pearce may turn out to be better than that group, but we don't know.

[geysir]

I suppose it's not a slight on a player to express an opinion about his abilities, one who is vying (with such ugly fervour) for a place in the squad.
"Too clumsy, rash in the tackle and lacks dominance. Has always played for teams that have leaked loads of goals. Derby are where they are in spite of and not because of him"

[tricky_colour]

I suppose it's not a slight on a player to express an opinion about his abilities, one who is vying (with such ugly fervour) for a place in the squad.
"Too clumsy, rash in the tackle and lacks dominance. Has always played for teams that have leaked loads of goals. Derby are where they are in spite of and not because of him"




The leaking goals thing may be true but the also score a lot of goals, most in the league. The key thing is do they leak more goals than they score?

It may be that with a good defence they are able to attack more and hence concede more, if that makes any sense :)

[Stuttgart88]

Why does everyone have a boner for Pearse? He's yet another who seems decent, but no more at this stage. I haven't seen much of him tbh but I saw him live against Oman. He had a bit of Gary Doherty about him I thought.

I think Dunne and O'Shea are our best two CBs, with SSL a very reliable third choice. Delaney strikes me as a good backs to the wall defender but lacks finesse, and I'd say Keogh is in that mould too. It's hard to tell whether either is better than McShane. O'Dea has got too much flak but I'd say he's out of it at this stage. I've never seen him dominate any situation like Keogh did last night.

Clark is the one I probably have highest hopes for. He just needs to cut out the carelessness he seems prone to. I'd like more time to make a judgment on Wilson as a CB but I suspect he's marginally ahead of Delaney, McShane and Keogh. Duffy has time on his side.

We have a lot of CB options but most carry some risk.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

I suppose it's not a slight on a player to express an opinion about his abilities, one who is vying (with such ugly fervour) for a place in the squad.
"Too clumsy, rash in the tackle and lacks dominance. Has always played for teams that have leaked loads of goals. Derby are where they are in spite of and not because of him"






Ah there you go again, being catty. He played for a Carlisle team that leaked goals and a pitiable Coventry team that got relegated from The Championship. He was weak in defence last season for Derby. He has improved this season, like several of their players, benefiting from playing under Shteve McClaren.

In bold - my opinion and I stand by it. From what I seen at Pride Park a couple of times and even watching The Football League Show, again this is admittedly last season.

I understand I went too far with the clamouring for a call up fervour but he is more proactive than anyone else when talking about Ireland. Admittedly, this may be because he is captain but I just find it peculiar for someone who is a bit down the pecking order.

@ DeLorean

I meant he would be 28 by the start of the next campaign. Delaney already has International experience and, vitally, PL experience plus there is the whole form thing. I can't overestimate how impressive he has been this season. He may be lacking finesse but hey, even O'Shea and Dunne lack finesse at the best of times. Marc Wilson is supposed to be elegant and he has even looked raw at points this season.

I think Keogh should be looked at if Derby get promoted because of the aforementioned depth.

LB, midfield and the Keane conundrum are more pressing issues/what I think O'Neill should be mulling over rather than making radical changes where un-necessary.

By the by... http://www.herald.ie/sport/soccer/keogh-and-co-steal-show-in-vital-victory-for-rams-29999663.html I know ye don't respect Mr. Hyland's opinion but he thinks Keogh is being groomed for a CB spot.

[geysir]

Ah there you go again, being catty. He played for a Carlisle team that leaked goals and a pitiable Coventry team that got relegated from The Championship. He was weak in defence last season for Derby. He has improved this season, like several of their players, benefiting from playing under Shteve McClaren.

In bold - my opinion and I stand by it. From what I seen at Pride Park a couple of times and even watching The Football League Show, again this is admittedly last season.

I understand I went too far with the clamouring for a call up fervour but he is more proactive than anyone else when talking about Ireland. Admittedly, this may be because he is captain but I just find it peculiar for someone who is a bit down the pecking order.

I would not want to slight Keogh but "he played for a Carlisle team that leaked goals"

Player of the year for his last season at Carlisle.

I wouldn't want to slight Keogh but he played "for a pitiable Coventry team that got relegated from The Championship"

Player of the year for his 2 seasons there Earned a big money transfer to Derby

I wouldn't want to slight Keogh but "He was weak in defence last season for Derby."

Player of the year. Players' player of the year. Supporters' player of the year

Of course, stand by your opinion, I wouldn't want to slight it, but......

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

I would not want to slight Keogh but "he played for a Carlisle team that leaked goals"

Player of the year for his last season at Carlisle.

I wouldn't want to slight Keogh but he played "for a pitiable Coventry team that got relegated from The Championship"

Player of the year for his 2 seasons there Earned a big money transfer to Derby

I wouldn't want to slight Keogh but "He was weak in defence last season for Derby."

Player of the year. Players' player of the year. Supporters' player of the year

Of course, stand by your opinion, I wouldn't want to slight it, but......

Not sure why these accolades need to be brought up again but there is a long way from playing in League One for Carlisle and getting relegated with Coventry to playing International football, regardless of how he's played over the last few months.

He may be having a stormer for Derby but he was very shaky last season and I worry if he plays for Ireland competitively. Just my opinion. Shoot me.

And @ DeLorean I bummed tickets to Pride when my sister was working in that neck of the woods.

My opinion on Keogh may rankle but it's no more ridiculous than some of what I've read about players like McShane and Sammon in the past. Then again, I go overboard on Whelan, Andrews, Walters and Cox.

Let's not deny it. I'm not the only one that goes in two-legged on certain players.

[tricky_colour]

He seems to have been player of the year every year for every club he has every played for,
which is quite an achievement and he has just got man of the match in his last game
in a side pushing for promotion.

Therefore if he is indeed " clumsy, rash in the tackle and lacks dominance.", then
he must possess some other talents which are quite remarkable!!!

Maybe he performs miracles?

Walking to games down the Derwent perhaps?

[DeLorean]

Not sure why these accolades need to be brought up again but there is a long way from playing in League One for Carlisle and getting relegated with Coventry to playing International football, regardless of how he's played over the last few months.

This line of argument sums you up. There is nobody drawing a line between his performances for Carlisle and his potential performances for us. You said he played in a Carlisle side that shipped a lot of goals, clearly implying Keogh must have been at least partially responsible. When it's put to you that he seems to have been Carlisle's best player, you just respond with the 'that doesn't mean he's good enough for international football' argument. Obviously that's true, but you're the one that tried to use his Carlisle record against him, of course you're going to get a counter argument when he won their player of the season award and got a transfer to a bigger side.


He may be having a stormer for Derby but he was very shaky last season and I worry if he plays for Ireland competitively. Just my opinion. Shoot me.

Nobody has an issue with you not rating him, you are more than entitled to your opinion. I agree that Derby are shipping less goals because of McClaren, I don't agree that Keogh was the liability you think he was. Derby under Clough weren't nearly as defensively organised as they are now and without Keogh, I would think that they would have shipped even more goals than they did. Obviously he wasn't infallible, but it was a defence under constant pressure through a lack of protection from those in front of them. McClaren has certainly given him a platform to defend better.

You have already gone from saying that Keogh isn't capable of the step up to international football... to saying he's a decent option... to saying he deserves a chance if Derby get promoted. Already that's a fairly dramatic change in a couple of weeks and no less than anybody on here was campaigning for in the first place (bar the 'if they get promoted bit' maybe, Sledge has proved that may not be essential).


And @ DeLorean I bummed tickets to Pride when my sister was working in that neck of the woods.

Fair enough.

[DeLorean]

Another dominating performance last night by all accounts in a massive win for Derby. Automatic promotion is starting to look very achievable. Apparently Sheffield Wednesday dominated the game for large spells.

“We’ve kept two clean sheets in a row and that’s brilliant - the defending was impeccable.” - Steve McClaren

"I think it was all about focus and concentration. [Jake] Buxton and [Richard] Keogh were magnificent with their heading and I think that gave us the belief. We knew that if they remained focused at the back then we would get our chance. As long as we are solid at the back, it gives us a platform to build on and we have got the skill and quality in the forward positions to nick a goal.” - Patrick Bamford

[Stuttgart88]

Unfortunately good European international teams don't pump high balls into the box all night long. I'd have every confidence in him if they did, but it's on the ground where the likes of he and Delaney are probably most vulnerable. Great to hear he's playing well though. You can only deal with what you're presented.

[DeLorean]

Yeah I suppose it's just a case of getting TOWK's famous pecking order into play really. We were fairly blessed with St. Ledger's adaptability regardless of his club form/situation. I don't see any reason why the likes of Keogh couldn't provide something similar. He is reasonably comfortable on the ball from what I have seen and tidy in possession. I accept international football is a different level but it's a good starting point.

I see his age as a fairly big plus as well, 27/28 is when a centre back really starts to shine. He may be playing at a lower level than, say, Ciaran Clark right now but I suspect he would be less prone to costly errors. I like Clark and think he has huge talent, but he is still pretty raw in his approach.

We have at least four really excellent friendlies to have a look the various centre back options and we should have a better idea at that stage who deserves the nod.

[Stuttgart88]

and to that I'd add the MON has usually had a very good eye for a CB and has often got a lot from CBs like Elliott and Prior.

Stan Petrov was on SKY's Fantasy Football show last Saturday am and was asked to pick his best XV of players he has played with.

His CBs were Balde(!) and Dunne, saying he couldn't believe Dunne wasn't still in the EPL.

Others from his Celtic days included Alan Thompson (LB), Moravcik (in the Hoolahan / Reid role :)) and Larsson and Sutton. All played under O'Neill I'm pretty sure.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

From what I have seen of him, I haven't seen anything to suggest that he is a better option than O'Shea, Dunne, Clark, Delaney and Wilson. He looked shaky enough last season, conceding several penalties including a game I watched him in.

Good to see he is doing well this season and good point about St Ledger making the step up to International football even where his League form suffered. By all accounts, Shane Duffy and Alex Pearce are having great seasons too; the former is in Everton's long-term plans and the latter is also in the promotion shake up with Reading. In 12 months time; Kevin Long, Tommie Hoban and Mark O'Brien could become options.

Assuming a minimum of 4 CB's and a maximum of 5 are included in the squad for the Serbia game, it will be interesting to see who is called up. Of course the fact that several of our CB's also play full back complicates trying to determine who will get the nod.

I am going to predict Dunne, O'Shea, Clark, Wilson and one of either Delaney, Keogh or Pearce. In fairness, it would be a shame if Delaney didn't get the nod. He has been one of Palace's best 3 players this season.