Ireland V Germany 12th October & Faroe Islands 16th October 2012 - World Cup 2014 Q

[Olé Olé]

Sure didn't Clifford turn down Hamburg last season...and sure aren't Hamburg German? Perfect call-up!

[Charlie Darwin]

Clifford was hot sauce eight months ago - now he's garbage. That first Trap call up was a kiss of death.

Calling a young prospect up for a decision we're short in isn't stupid, even if people feel he should be down the pecking order.

If he plays him up front on Friday, then it'd be stupid.
Don't be ridiculous. He'll play him on the wing.

[tricky_colour]

Stupid call up but then again this is Trapattoni


Let's face it, if you were appointed Ireland manager and did everything possible to get the worst results possible
your selection would have been little different from Traps, I mean you to go right to the edge of credibility to
make the worst selections and still stay in a job!!
I think he is how you say "aving a laff"

[BonnieShels]

Wonder if the Germans are going to be a little over confident after snickering at our roster.

NO. Just no.

[Charlie Darwin]

It's worse than we thought. Mertesacker's reaction after sneaking a look at our roster:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/Valinor/German%20NT/mertesackerdancegif.gif

[Murfinator]

Or Andy Reid and Stephen Ireland for that matter...

I almost feel that a separate subsection of Godwin's Law [(Bonnie's Law) ;)] needs to be formulated solely for the purposes of Ireland squad announcements.

Godwin's Law when pertaining to Ireland team or squad selections:
As an online discussion about an Ireland team or squad selection grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Stephen Ireland or Andy Reid approaches.
In other words, It has been observed that, given enough time, in any online discussion pertaining to Ireland team or squad selections, someone inevitably makes a comparison to Stephen Ireland or Andy Reid.

Considering Trap's finally willing to play 3 central midfielders for the first time in his tenure Andy Reid does fit into his system.

Just saying....

[theworm2345]

Anyone see McShane's interview (I saw it on Sky Sports News, not sure of the source)? Talks about how he'll never turn down a call up, would travel to Kazakhstan or China, etc. Whatever about his skill level, always good to hear considering the apparent mindset of some other players. Can upload the clip if anyone missed it.

[Noelys Guitar]

So the team is Westwood
Kelly JOS O'Dea Ward
Cox Andrews Fahey McCarthy McGeady
Keane

Definitely not the best team he could put out. Cox should not be starting let alone starting as a winger. Very poor last game and slowly trotting over to take a corner with his side a goal down should have seen him relegated behind Keogh. Agree with the 5 man midfield and understand why Fahey was picked ahead of Meyler. But it should be Coleman out wide right not Cox (or Walters). Agree with JOS and O'Dea starting as center backs. Wilson should have replaced Ward who gets pulled out of position way too easily. And Long should be starting ahead of Keane. Long is the form Irish striker and has the movement and speed to trouble the German defense. Keane has not played well against a half decent defense for a long time now. I see him playing every week in the MLS and he has really slowed down from when he was last playing for Villa in the Premiership.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/1010/1224325092944.html

[SkStu]

If we're going to play a striker on the wing, why not Walters or Long, both of whom have international and club experience there. Has Cox ever in his career been anything other than an orthodox striker (recent Irish caps aside where he's been gash out wide)?

[Noelys Guitar]

If we're going to play a striker on the wing, why not Walters or Long, both of whom have international and club experience there. Has Cox ever in his career been anything other than an orthodox striker (recent Irish caps aside where he's been gash out wide)?

It really is baffling. I just can't work out why he keeps playing him. And then playing him as a wide right man. There has not even been a hint that it works or improves the side in anyway. And yet here we are again. Against the Germans.

[Charlie Darwin]

I thought Cox played very well in the first half hour in Kazakhstan before we started getting passed out of the game. His link-up play with Keane was very good at times and probably should have yielded at least a goal. I don't think he'll be much use when we're pinned back by the Germans though. Long would make far more sense.

[Noelys Guitar]

More on Trapatonni to Blackburn http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/football/4580883/Giovanni-Trapattoni-has-stunned-Ireland-fans-by-expressing-an-interest-in-becoming-Blackburn-boss.html Wonder if there is anything in it.

[Charlie Darwin]

Strange headline considering Trap has explicitly ruled himself out: http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/trap-dismisses-blackburn-speculation-210414.html


"I’m not even aware of it," he said. "It must be agent chit-chat. I’m not interested anyway. I’m concentrating on the job in hand."

Although if the Examiner's url is anything to go by he has put himself into the frame for the next international rules series.

[Noelys Guitar]

I wonder how the Germans' are going to approach this game. They have a lot of injuries but still have the look of a top 11. Our biggest problem is going to be (like in the Euros) keeping them out for the first 20 mins. They always start a rapid pace. If we could get through that period of the game without conceding then who knows.

[tricky_colour]

So the team is Westwood
Kelly JOS O'Dea Ward
Cox Andrews Fahey McCarthy McGeady
Keane

Definitely not the best team he could put out. Cox should not be starting let alone starting as a winger. Very poor last game and slowly trotting over to take a corner with his side a goal down should have seen him relegated behind Keogh. Agree with the 5 man midfield and understand why Fahey was picked ahead of Meyler. But it should be Coleman out wide right not Cox (or Walters). Agree with JOS and O'Dea starting as center backs. Wilson should have replaced Ward who gets pulled out of position way too easily. And Long should be starting ahead of Keane. Long is the form Irish striker and has the movement and speed to trouble the German defense. Keane has not played well against a half decent defense for a long time now. I see him playing every week in the MLS and he has really slowed down from when he was last playing for Villa in the Premiership.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/1010/1224325092944.html

Not the line up I would have picked but no surprise, Trap is conservative as always. I'd prefer 4-1-4-1 myself although I am not
sure who would play in front of the defender. It's a system which worked well for Moyes, not sure if he still use it though.
You effectively get an extra defender and an extra midfielder.

[SkStu]

I thought Cox played very well in the first half hour in Kazakhstan before we started getting passed out of the game. His link-up play with Keane was very good at times and probably should have yielded at least a goal. I don't think he'll be much use when we're pinned back by the Germans though. Long would make far more sense.

Good for a half hour against Kazakhstan just isn't good enough though is it? Play him behind Keane if they have the chemistry. He's just not a winger and isn't Traps style to attack on the wings with wingers? Bizzaro.

Trap can't lose in the German game. Lose and it was expected, sure they're a class act. Draw and he'll be feted as a omniscient Demi-god. Win and he'll be able to pasture sheep in Stephens Green for the rest of his days.

It's the Faroes game that will tell us what we need to know. Must win. No excuses.

[tricky_colour]

More on Trapatonni to Blackburn http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/football/4580883/Giovanni-Trapattoni-has-stunned-Ireland-fans-by-expressing-an-interest-in-becoming-Blackburn-boss.html Wonder if there is anything in it.

Really can't see that happening, would surely mean a wage cut plus a drop to the championship.
Can you imagine the kind of stick he would get from the fans over his likely team selections?
I don't think he needs that kind of hassle at this stage in his career.

[theworm2345]

David Meyler is tall, which could be important against this opponent
I wonder if he is aware that Clifford is not exactly a big physical presence (at the same position as Meyler). In fact, David Connolly is two centimeters taller.

[gastric]

I wonder if he is aware that Clifford is not exactly a big physical presence (at the same position as Meyler). In fact, David Connolly is two centimeters taller.

Gee Worm, you got a David Connolly reference in, how about that! Trap thought he had organised Clifford the Big Red Dog as a mascot, hence his mistake!

BTW Tardelli is optimistic, I suppose he has to be!

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/tardelli-targets-surprise-win-over-germany-3255414.html

[theworm2345]

Gee Worm, you got a David Connolly reference in, how about that! Trap thought he had organised Clifford the Big Red Dog as a mascot, hence his mistake!

BTW Tardelli is optimistic, I suppose he has to be!

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/tardelli-targets-surprise-win-over-germany-3255414.html
You may not like the reference but it doesn't make the point invalid. I can't really remember too many other players who have been rendered "too small" to be effective either. Hoolahan wouldn't work as he is shorter than Clifford and a guy like Terry Phelan's size wasn't much of an issue at full back. Obviously in some systems in doesn't matter what height you are depending on position...that is not the case in Trap's.

[Charlie Darwin]

Small doesn't mean short. Clifford is short but he is strong and has a low centre of gravity. Hoolahan has other qualities but he is lightweight. Meyler is tall but that would be useless if he wasn't strong too, in order to compete in the air with the likes of Badstuber and Mertesacker.

[gastric]

You may not like the reference but it doesn't make the point invalid. I can't really remember too many other players who have been rendered "too small" to be effective either. Hoolahan wouldn't work as he is shorter than Clifford and a guy like Terry Phelan's size wasn't much of an issue at full back. Obviously in some systems in doesn't matter what height you are depending on position...that is not the case in Trap's.

Seriously, I wasn't being cynical, just messing around!

[drummerboy]

I still can't get my head around how Clifford has been selected for this squad. I can understand that Givens has poisoned the chances of McCann getting a call up. But a player like Hendrick, who is playing regularly for his club surely deserves a chance before Clifford. Others who spring to mind are Wes Holohan, Owen Garvan who seems to have rediscovered his form, Gary Dicker is another regular Championship playelr. Clifford couldn't command a place in a struggling Div 1 team. Its quite clear that Trap doesn't know what players are out there and is listening to fools like Givens. I wonder who Cliffords agent is.

[SwanVsDalton]

Trap has long favoured calling up young prospects for top teams (Gibson, Brady, Cunningham, Duffy) over regulars in the Championship or below.

Rightly or wrongly, maybe Trap (or Tardelli or Brady) just rate Clifford and think his talents are worth persevering with despite being kicked out of League 1.

Besides people said it was great the manager first called him up not so long ago and Trap probably took a shine to him at training.

[p2011]

A few things are bothering me:

If we are to start with a three-man midfield then why are we telling the opposition about it days in advance? Why not let the Germans persist in thinking they will be facing the usual dysfunctional long-ball 4-4-2 for a few days longer? Trap could easily say nothing, or say Fahey will be on the wing with Cox and Keane up front as a 4-4-2 and then spring a surprise when we kick off. Why play into the hands of this already strong opposition? (I wouldn't have either Cox or Keane in the starting 11, but that's beside the point.)

And why are we here just a few days before a competitive game against the 2nd best team in the world preparing for a completely new formation that has essentially never been tried out in a realistic manner (that is: we have never played with a 3rd midfielder with good passing/ball retention suitable for playing ahead of two holding midfielders). Sure that is just plain incompetence and lack of planning? I know we have injuries, but that is the sort of thing you plan for! Along with having alternatives ready depending on whether you are playing Spain or Androrra, depending on whether you are 1-0 up or 0-1 down, depending on whether you have injuries or not. This is precisely the "lack of plan B" that I have talked about here in the past, where I was shouted down by others saying "almost all the teams with a plan B still got knocked out of Euro 2012".

Bizarre selections aside, these two points are signs of plain neglect and carelessness to me.

[ifk101]

What you read in the newspapers is just noise. We'll play our usual formation and system. I'd be surprised if we start we anything our than (barring injuries);
-----------Westwood---------
Kelly----O'Shea---O'Dea----Ward
McGeady-Andrews-McCarthy-Cox
-----Keane--------Walters------

Keane will drop into midfield on occasion, but he has always has been free to roam.

[geysir]

Close, but no cigar.

[shakermaker1982]

I agree IFK. I'd be very surprised if the Trap ditched his beloved 4-4-2.

We really are in for a world of pain Friday.

[ArdeeBhoy]

What's our record home defeat?

Remember 1-4 v.Danmark, was it?

[paul_oshea]

Trap has long favoured calling up young prospects for top teams (Gibson, Brady, Cunningham, Duffy) over regulars in the Championship or below.

Rightly or wrongly, maybe Trap (or Tardelli or Brady) just rate Clifford and think his talents are worth persevering with despite being kicked out of League 1.

Besides people said it was great the manager first called him up not so long ago and Trap probably took a shine to him at training.

Why do you think that is? He has called up young prospects for top teams that is? Its pretty obvious. It happened with Cunningham too, but why hasn't he been called up since?

[SwanVsDalton]

Why do you think that is? He has called up young prospects for top teams that is? Its pretty obvious. It happened with Cunningham too, but why hasn't he been called up since?

I think he calls them up because he's told they're good prospects by various people (Brady, Tardelli, Alex Ferguson I think had a hand in Gibson becoming a fixture).

Out of the four examples - Gibson, Brady, Cunningham, Duffy - none of them have been a waste of time or a bad call. So he's hardly off base.

Cunningham's being injured for approximately 80 per cent of the time he hasn't been called up, while Ward and Wilson have emerged for the LB spot. He'd have been called up more if he was available more when we wern't preparing for a major tournament.

[SwanVsDalton]

And why are we here just a few days before a competitive game against the 2nd best team in the world preparing for a completely new formation that has essentially never been tried out in a realistic manner (that is: we have never played with a 3rd midfielder with good passing/ball retention suitable for playing ahead of two holding midfielders). Sure that is just plain incompetence and lack of planning? I know we have injuries, but that is the sort of thing you plan for! Along with having alternatives ready depending on whether you are playing Spain or Androrra, depending on whether you are 1-0 up or 0-1 down, depending on whether you have injuries or not. This is precisely the "lack of plan B" that I have talked about here in the past, where I was shouted down by others saying "almost all the teams with a plan B still got knocked out of Euro 2012".

The lack of a back-up plan is by far the most damning indictment of the current manager for me. So frustrating.

[Serb]

What's our record home defeat? Remember 1-4 v.Danmark, was it?
We've certainly lost by more in friendlies at home. In recent times, we lost 4-0 vs Holland in 2006 during the Staunton era. We suffered a 5-0 friendly defeat versus Spain in Dalymount in 1931. As for competitive losses, we lost to Denmark 4-1 in a World Cup Qualifier in 1985 as you say. We also lost 4-1 to Austria in 1971 at Dalymount in a European Championship qualifier.

Germany are certainly capable of besting those records, but I can't see it happening.

[geysir]

Why do you think that is? He has called up young prospects for top teams that is? Its pretty obvious. It happened with Cunningham too, but why hasn't he been called up since?
Cunningham was called up for one friendly and used in the next 3 after that, before he broke his leg. How does that relate to Clifford's call up, if you are insinuating that it's a waste?
He certainly deserves another squad call up (soon) if he has established himself at LB with Bristol City.

I don't see any big deal with calling up a prospect like Clifford, it doesn't mean he's ahead in the queue. Germany are traveling with just 20 players in their squad.

[paul_oshea]

No, Cunningham has been doing very well for Bristol City, but he has fallen off the radar since he has left City, that's what I'm insinuating.

The point is, back to the age old question of Trap and looking at players, he makes assumptions, based on what he hears and the stature of the club that a player is at rather than knowing anything about the player himself.

[IsMiseSean]

Isn't Cunningham out for a few months with an injury he picked up lately?

[PatJR]

The point is, back to the age old question of Trap and looking at players, he makes assumptions, based on what he hears and the stature of the club that a player is at rather than knowing anything about the player himself.

And how do you know he is not keeping tabs on Cunningham? Unless you've watched Bristol City regularly what is your basis for the high praise of Cunningham. Has he done enough to oust an experienced Ward or EPL level Wilson? As for the stature of a club Trap couldn't care less, Paul Green (Derby\Unattched) is just one example. Trap like most managers knows the type of player he wants and the club has nothing to do with it.

[SwanVsDalton]

No, Cunningham has been doing very well for Bristol City, but he has fallen off the radar since he has left City, that's what I'm insinuating.

There's context though. Cunningham only came back to first team action last October after ten months or so out injured. At the time we were at the business end of a campaign, with a reasonably settled team and squad going for qualification.

Then, having qualified, it wasn't on the cards for someone who didn't really feature to get in the squad unless (ala McClean) they were tearing it up in the Prem.

Moreover we have options at LB we didn't have when Cunningham was first called on by Trap (Ward, Wilson, even Clark).

This doesn't point towards any deficient selection policy - just a player who was unlucky with injuries and usurped by established Premier League players.


The point is, back to the age old question of Trap and looking at players, he makes assumptions, based on what he hears and the stature of the club that a player is at rather than knowing anything about the player himself.

Plenty of players called up who don't fit that description. Like unglamorous Damien Delaney, who for a period was Trap's favourite player to call in during a LB crisis.

Sure Trap's player knowledge could be better, but it's never struck me he's picked people based on clubs - more he's picked people based on familiarity regardless of clubs.

[SwanVsDalton]

Isn't Cunningham out for a few months with an injury he picked up lately?

Yup ruptured his ankle tendon at the end of September. Two month layoff.

[geysir]

Damien Delaney, who for a period was Trap's favourite player to call in during a LB crisis.

Crisis? What crisis?

[geysir]

No, Cunningham has been doing very well for Bristol City, but he has fallen off the radar since he has left City, that's what I'm insinuating.

The point is, back to the age old question of Trap and looking at players, he makes assumptions, based on what he hears and the stature of the club that a player is at rather than knowing anything about the player himself.

It may be true that he first called up Cunningham as part of a squad for a friendly, solely based on favourable opinions passed on to him by the Man City manager. After that, I'd assume Trap made up his own opinion about Cunningham and played him thrice. I don't see that as being an issue.
I do wonder are there parts of Trap's memory cells that just naturally deteriorate with age - to having a complete blank out re players like Lawrence or has he taken a definitive move to leave the player out totally, based on 'no longer a squad asset' or possible attitude situation which arose.
I very much doubt that a favored player like Cunningham, once established in the Bristol City team, would be ignored on a whim.

[tetsujin1979]

No, Cunningham has been doing very well for Bristol City, but he has fallen off the radar since he has left City, that's what I'm insinuating.

The point is, back to the age old question of Trap and looking at players, he makes assumptions, based on what he hears and the stature of the club that a player is at rather than knowing anything about the player himself.
He only left City in July, so missing three games, when he was captaining the U21s, counts as "fallen off the radar"?

[SwanVsDalton]

Crisis? What crisis?

Whenever we were short or defender two. A (mini) crisis.

[geysir]

Whenever we were short or defender two. A (mini) crisis.

Maybe you missed the humour

http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/67110262/Crisis+What+Crisis.jpg

[SwanVsDalton]

Maybe you missed the humour

http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/67110262/Crisis+What+Crisis.jpg

Oh yeah that was way over my head. I do love 'Goodbye Stranger' though. I'm kinda hoping that reclaims my flimsy rep.

[paul_oshea]

And how do you know he is not keeping tabs on Cunningham? Unless you've watched Bristol City regularly what is your basis for the high praise of Cunningham. Has he done enough to oust an experienced Ward or EPL level Wilson? As for the stature of a club Trap couldn't care less, Paul Green (Derby\Unattched) is just one example. Trap like most managers knows the type of player he wants and the club has nothing to do with it.

How can he know the type of player if he isn't watching them or in most cases rules them out based on club and/or hasn't called them into the squad to get a proper look? Green is the exception not the rule.


Plenty of players called up who don't fit that description. Like unglamorous Damien Delaney, who for a period was Trap's favourite player to call in during a LB crisis.

Sure Trap's player knowledge could be better, but it's never struck me he's picked people based on clubs - more he's picked people based on familiarity regardless of clubs.

Exactly, when times are desperate he pulls out someone like Damien Delaney, then sticks with them for whatever reason, because he knows the system/his selection policy is ill-informed and lazy/<insert pre-requisite here>, instead of calling up more deserving players.

[SwanVsDalton]

Exactly, when times are desperate he pulls out someone like Damien Delaney, then sticks with them for whatever reason, because he knows the system/his selection policy is ill-informed and lazy/<insert pre-requisite here>, instead of calling up more deserving players.

Yeah we all know Trap's selection policy is often baffling, contradictory and frustrating. That's why no one can draw hard and fast conclusions, such as 'Trap picks by club reputation because is player knowledge is poor'.

Gripe about his selection method by all means, but I don't think club rep is as big a factor as you suggested.

[Murfinator]

So the team is Westwood
Kelly JOS O'Dea Ward
Cox Andrews Fahey McCarthy McGeady
Keane

Definitely not the best team he could put out. Cox should not be starting let alone starting as a winger. Very poor last game and slowly trotting over to take a corner with his side a goal down should have seen him relegated behind Keogh. Agree with the 5 man midfield and understand why Fahey was picked ahead of Meyler. But it should be Coleman out wide right not Cox (or Walters). Agree with JOS and O'Dea starting as center backs. Wilson should have replaced Ward who gets pulled out of position way too easily. And Long should be starting ahead of Keane. Long is the form Irish striker and has the movement and speed to trouble the German defense. Keane has not played well against a half decent defense for a long time now. I see him playing every week in the MLS and he has really slowed down from when he was last playing for Villa in the Premiership.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/1010/1224325092944.html

He wants a dynamic 4-5-1 that can switch to an attacking 4-3-3 when required. Coleman can not play as an axillary striker. He seems to prefer Cox's defensive work to Walters and Long. I would say Cox's job will be to defend high up the pitch from Lahm to protect his fullback but we'll see.

[liamoo11]

He wants a dynamic 4-5-1 that can switch to an attacking 4-3-3 when required. Coleman can not play as an axillary striker. He seems to prefer Cox's defensive work to Walters and Long. I would say Cox's job will be to defend high up the pitch from Lahm to protect his fullback but we'll see.

Cox will have an easy job so on friday with mr lahm suspended!Personally I wood prob rather coleman seein as he wont be picked right full with long up top and try and be solid keep the ball and use the pace of our wide players and long

[Murfinator]

Cox will have an easy job so on friday with mr lahm suspended!Personally I wood prob rather coleman seein as he wont be picked right full with long up top and try and be solid keep the ball and use the pace of our wide players and long

Boateng/Howedes then. If the score is 0-0 I don't believe you should be concerned about our attacking options. Defending and possession will be the key, only way we'll score is from a set piece. Coleman would be a poor option in any possession for the game in question. Long or Walters up front wouldn't make much sense with the twin towers Badstuber and Mertesacker, we'll have no joy from the air they'd mop up route ones all night long. Mertesacker in particular is clumsy with the ball at feet, Keane's the best of our strikers at exploiting that.

It's nowhere near as intimidating a defence without Hummels and Lahm though.