Ireland V Germany 12th October & Faroe Islands 16th October 2012 - World Cup 2014 Q

[Paddy Garcia]

RE Fahey

He looked shattered by the time he was taken off, its just not his game. Point taken though, he didnt play well in possession.

I don't know why we don't use blood transfusions like everyone else - ideally German blood!

[BonnieShels]

It's only a few days ago people were calling for JOSH to be played at CB.
Make your mind up!

In Trap we must trust

I speak for all Ireland fans?

Awesome!

[NeverFeltBetter]

My overall opinion of Robbie Keane's worth, when Long remains stuck outside the starting line-up, is going to be heavily influenced by this game.

Good attacking line-up. I would still have questions about Brady's experience, but I said before that a team like the Faeroe's was a good one to start your international career proper against.

I do think we will win, I expect a bit of cop-on and commitment after Friday. Any news on what the weather will be like?

[Sullivinho]

ideally German blood!

Careful now...

[Colbert Report]

Anyone know where one can watch the match here in Canada? It doesn't appear that GOLTV are showing it at all.

[boovidge]

McGeady is lucky to be retained. I'm losing pateience with this fella. I'm beginning to think his tricks and gimmicks would be best suited to the freestyle circuit.


He can rip teams to shreds if given a bit of room to run with a counter attack. Our style of play doesn't suit him at all. However, he did easily unlock the Andorra defence last time so I'd definitely have him in against another minnow.

[tricky_colour]

Don't think Kelly should be starting ahead of Coleman, not until he's starting regularly again at Fulham
O'Dea for Clark is the only change I'd make there.


I agree with you about Clark and O'Dea but not Coleman, I don't recall him making any mistakes in particular and he played a key role in the goal.
I don't know for sure if he is a better defender than Kelly, I certainly can't recall any blunders but I am pretty sure he is better going forward
and if we are not going forward against the Faroes who can we go forward against?

[tricky_colour]

Glad to see Brady is starting, at least Trap is reading my stats posts!! :p

[geysir]

I'd expect the Faroes to play a pressing game higher up the pitch,
but after they go a goal ahead they tend to fall back to protect it, then Ireland should get the bulk of possession.

Anybody want to guess Westwood's distribution?
Hand passes to back 4 V Hoofs upfield
3 completed sideway/forward passes V Ball sent back to Westwood or hoofed upfield by back 4

[Fixer82]

Hand passes to back 4 V Hoofs upfield


Heard he was a daycint half-back in his day alright

[tetsujin1979]

I'd expect the Faroes to play a pressing game higher up the pitch,
but after they go a goal ahead they tend to fall back to protect it, then Ireland should get the bulk of possession.

Anybody want to guess Westwood's distribution?
Hand passes to back 4 V Hoofs upfield
3 completed sideway/forward passes V Ball sent back to Westwood or hoofed upfield by back 4Munster will never forgive Back. Ever. He knows what he did.

[OwenGoal]

Maybe some of you have seen this before but I found this stat on Opta:

Republic of Ireland have attempted fewer tackles than any other European team in this qualification campaign (24).[

Overall, I think Trap should go but if someone could just persuade him to address fundamental issues of his tactics/management style, I think he would still be worth a shot. Let's face it, none of the alternatives being presented are inspiring. They might bring about some improvement in a CPR kind of way, but they'll come with other problems.

Sadly, I think he's too set in his ways to change. FAI should have grown a pair and dealt with him before hand. Maybe if Denis O'Brian had sent around a man in in ill-fitting Primark suit late at night. Tis all too late now.

[paul_oshea]

Ha ya that dirty hand in. That was typical of that England team though. They have lacked that "professional" anything to win attitude for a while. All stemmed from johnson i suppose, should we open up that cheating debate again, murfinator will duly oblige i'm sure.

[SwanVsDalton]

Republic of Ireland have attempted fewer tackles than any other European team in this qualification campaign (24).[

Illuminating. I'm not really sure why, but in the last year or show the team has changed from stand off-ish, disciplined but obdurate and strong to completely standing off their men at all times and simply sitting in their zones without having the gumption to really compete for the ball when it gets in dangerous areas.

We've conceded a remarkable amount of goals from ping-pongs in and around the box, whereas before I'd expect someone (probably Dunne) to bang it clear.

Players are to blame for not taking responsibility, management is to blame for not nipping it in the bud and giving them a rocket by dropping those underperforming.

[SwanVsDalton]

Why has Trap changed his phillosophy/policy/system? He is playing all these attacking players? Playing players we always wanted and discarded his own defensive approach? Do you think perhaps he wants the sack?

Is it not just a reaction to being under severe pressure?

Also I'm not all that sure he's been more attacking last two games, so much as he has finally trusted players who happen to be more attacking (McCarthy and Coleman). It could've been Meyler and Kelly in a not so removed parallel dimension, but seems he's actually gone with the guys who have first team games this season.

The inclusion of Brady/Wilson isn't all that more attacking than classic Trap selections (Duff/Kilbane).

The proof in the attacking pudding will be how we play ball tonight. I'd like to think if he's actively making an effort to change our mentality, it'll be represented in keeping the ball and building attacks.

[brine3]

Maybe some of you have seen this before but I found this stat on Opta:

Republic of Ireland have attempted fewer tackles than any other European team in this qualification campaign (24).[

Dunne did the tackling of 11 men.

[pineapple stu]

Maybe some of you have seen this before but I found this stat on Opta:

Republic of Ireland have attempted fewer tackles than any other European team in this qualification campaign (24).
*Waits for Stuttgart88 to tell us how many tackles Barca have made this season.* :p

[Stuttgart88]

I've no idea whatsoever.

I think fewest tackles attempted (not made, attempted) is a telling stat. We don't even try to tackle.

[Noelys Guitar]

What changed against Germany from say the Croatia game? We didn't concede an early goal against Germany but around the half an hour mark in both games we fell further and further back. And never recovered a foothold in either game. I can remember Andy Townsend saying that under Charlton when Ireland scored a goal or started to come under sustained pressure the team as a unit would push further up the pitch, not drop further back. Thats what we have to start to do again.

[Stuttgart88]

I think the Germany game showed just how important Duff was for us in these games. He was about the only player we had capable of receiving the ball to feet and retaining it, buying the time needed by our players to catch up and get into space. I thought this was really noticable at the Brazil game in London. We fell to pieces when he went off. We were semi-competitive up to that point. Our Euro nightmare might have been worse without Duff.

[paul_oshea]

Is it not just a reaction to being under severe pressure?

The proof in the attacking pudding will be how we play ball tonight. I'd like to think if he's actively making an effort to change our mentality, it'll be represented in keeping the ball and building attacks.

You said before he has worked for 40 years in football, a couple of results and the media has no effect on him. Why the change now?

I don't think the way we play tonight explains anything related to pressure - on Trap - or what I was asking. Why has he decided all of a sudden to pick far more attacking line ups(and players) and players that we all said should be in the team a year ago than he has before - as suggested by you and others he has been in football for 40 years he can handle the media and a couple of bad results?

[Stuttgart88]

I see David Kelly was scathing of Robbie in the Indo today. Unfair imho, a captain has to put up a united front and can't be openly critical. I'd like Kelly to be put on the spot in public and asked about his sports editor.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/the-favourites-who-flopped-and-the-talents-trap-wasted-3259619.html


The Trapattoni era must be viewed first and foremost through his relationship with his most influential player, the captain.

The narcissistic pair have become so inextricably linked that it seems neither man can no longer see clearly enough to effectively examine the other's shortcomings.

Both are guilty of relying on past glories to prop up a slip from former greatness. The captain has been pinpointed as Trap's Totti; in the Euros he was instead a tottering nonentity.

[the bear]

7:00pm kick off time tonight.

To be fair I think Robbie handles his press confrences well. To blame him for the euros is ridiculous. Totti wouldn't of been able to do anything either

[jbyrne]

I see David Kelly was scathing of Robbie in the Indo today. Unfair imho, a captain has to put up a united front and can't be openly critical. I'd like Kelly to be put on the spot in public and asked about his sports editor.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/the-favourites-who-flopped-and-the-talents-trap-wasted-3259619.html


The Trapattoni era must be viewed first and foremost through his relationship with his most influential player, the captain.

The narcissistic pair have become so inextricably linked that it seems neither man can no longer see clearly enough to effectively examine the other's shortcomings.

Both are guilty of relying on past glories to prop up a slip from former greatness. The captain has been pinpointed as Trap's Totti; in the Euros he was instead a tottering nonentity.

i think robbie deserves more respect than such tabloid drivel

[Duggie]

i think robbie deserves more respect than such tabloid drivel

course he does, robbie has carried us for years with his goals but our journalists canT wait to get him out of the team seemingly. the same journalists will be looking back at his goal record once we cant score when he retires. pathetic. KEANO IS A LEGEND.

[Charlie Darwin]

I see David Kelly was scathing of Robbie in the Indo today. Unfair imho, a captain has to put up a united front and can't be openly critical. I'd like Kelly to be put on the spot in public and asked about his sports editor.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/the-favourites-who-flopped-and-the-talents-trap-wasted-3259619.html


The Trapattoni era must be viewed first and foremost through his relationship with his most influential player, the captain.

The narcissistic pair have become so inextricably linked that it seems neither man can no longer see clearly enough to effectively examine the other's shortcomings.

Both are guilty of relying on past glories to prop up a slip from former greatness. The captain has been pinpointed as Trap's Totti; in the Euros he was instead a tottering nonentity.
Ridiculous article. The captain has to assume the manager will be around for the rest of the campaign and has to at least feign confidence in him. We do have the small matter of a World Cup qualifier tonight.

[Junior]

Sorry not had time to trawl through this thread and short on time but anyone got a suggestion for stream for tonights game for those outside Ireland. Dont normally watch online.

Thanks in advance.

Junior

[paul_oshea]

I really didn't want to go to the pub tonight, but dedication to my country ensures that I will.

I wouldn't trust a stream to be honest, you can't watch in comfort.

[the bear]

Sorry not had time to trawl through this thread and short on time but anyone got a suggestion for stream for tonights game for those outside Ireland. Dont normally watch online.

Thanks in advance.

Junior

http://www.vipboxsports.eu/sports/football.html

[SwanVsDalton]

You said before he has worked for 40 years in football, a couple of results and the media has no effect on him. Why the change now?

I don't think the way we play tonight explains anything related to pressure - on Trap - or what I was asking. Why has he decided all of a sudden to pick far more attacking line ups(and players) and players that we all said should be in the team a year ago than he has before - as suggested by you and others he has been in football for 40 years he can handle the media and a couple of bad results?

Do you really think we're in the same situation we were when I made that comment?

What I was referring to then is hardly the same to now - we've been shellacked at the Euros, robbed the Kazakhs blind and got absolutely battered at home by Germany.

This is the nadir of the manager's reign so far. It's a situation he's never faced as an Ireland manager ie one which by many accounts says he'll be sacked in a few days. It's natural to suppose he might alter his approach to tackle the situation.

Saying 'all of a sudden' is a bit bananas - if Trap beat Germany then a change up would be sudden. As we got stuffed, it isn't.

Also your comment seems to suggest Trap is responding to the media/fans more than anything, which I don't think is true. I think he's simply responding to us getting battered 6-1.

I know some here - and I'd include you in that POS judging by what you're saying - think a change in methodology by Trap is beyond the pale, but regardless of whether anyone thinks the manager is stubborn, stupid, lazy or all three, it's natural to suppose there's limits to his intransigence. Maybe, just maybe, a bunch of absolutely rubbish results* is his limit.

A secondary point is I'm not so sure the selection is ALL that more attacking than his previous one's - it's still 442 after all and besides Coleman at right back and possibly McCarthy, the side squares up similar to Trap's classic selections (Brady/Duff and Wilson/Kilbane). It is a little more adventurous, but not so different that I believe anything over than a combination of poor results and emerging attacking personnel (Brady and Coleman) have forced his hand.

If the side play a bit more ball, I'd personally take it as a far more startling sign of Trap changing things up.

*I know there's been rubbish results before, but fair to say they haven't been as rubbish as recently.

[Charlie Darwin]

I really didn't want to go to the pub tonight, but dedication to my country ensures that I will.
You're a selfless man :)

[Junior]

I really didn't want to go to the pub tonight, but dedication to my country ensures that I will.

I wouldn't trust a stream to be honest, you can't watch in comfort.

Cheers Paul, great help as always!

Think Ill struggle to get round to the old fellas to watch on RTE in time so need a back up plan. You enjoy your pints though.

[the bear]

I really didn't want to go to the pub tonight, but dedication to my country ensures that I will.


Paul O'Shea the motion picture, starring Liam Neeson coming soon to a theatre near you.

[paul_oshea]

That was obviously tongue in cheek lads...

SvD it wasn't like this was 1 year ago you were saying any of this.

The point I'm making is the results have changed but he has also started to make the changes to the team and formation. This is what was called for well before the debacle of the Euros, because it was clear to see that we had ridden our luck and eventually the wheels would come off. He has changed things around because he knows he got it wrong, as those who backed him now realise too. But had he actually made the changes earlier - things during his overall tenure, i'm not just talking tactical/player here - then he wouldn't have found himself, nor would his trapologists, in this situation.

So if we take the game to the Faroes, you will finally admit that Trap has changed because he got it wrong, and it was wrong* for a long time, not just getting drubbed by Germany at home?

it was wrong, read wrong any way you like tactics/communication/formation/team lineups/positional play/system/experience/back up plans etc - but it was all something that could have been made right

[SwanVsDalton]

SvD it wasn't like this was 1 year ago you were saying any of this.

I'm not going to slog through the search function to find it (I can't remember what thread it's in - feel free to have a go POS). But if I recall correctly that post was pre-Kazakhstan and in the context of media pressuring Trap to make changes. I simply pointed out I don't think media pressure comes into his thinking much as you seemed to believe.

I still don't, as I've fully explained.

Regardless of when I posted it - if you're not going to apply full context, please don't cite it.


The point I'm making is the results have changed but he has also started to make the changes to the team and formation.

I understand your point. I'm just saying - from Trap's view - results have never been so bad, so it's reasonable he'd make changes. This is direct answer to the questions you posted earlier.


This is what was called for well before the debacle of the Euros, because it was clear to see that we had ridden our luck and eventually the wheels would come off. He has changed things around because he knows he got it wrong, as those who backed him now realise too. But had he actually made the changes earlier - things during his overall tenure, i'm not just talking tactical/player here - then he wouldn't have found himself, nor would his trapologists, in this situation.

I think this is your real point if I'm honest, which is an I-told-you-so dig - a not particularly subtle one - dressed up in ostensible concern about team selections. You could just say that instead of posting a bunch of questions about why he's picking Seamus Coleman now as opposed to last year.

All I did was directly respond to you asking why he's made the change now - I didn't offer any comment on whether he should've made the same decisions yonks ago. But I feel you're trying to drag a bit out of my posts than is there - perhaps you're looking to get a rise out of me as someone you'd consider a Trapologist? ;)

EDIT - YUP.



So if we take the game to the Faroes, you will finally admit that Trap has changed because he got it wrong, and it was wrong* for a long time, not just getting drubbed by Germany at home?

it was wrong, read wrong any way you like tactics/communication/formation/team lineups/positional play/system/experience/back up plans etc - but it was all something that could have been made right

I've never, ever, ever said Trap was totally 100 per cent right on selection, on tactics and on motivation. What kind of warped Victorian-era judgement system could see things so black and white?

For the record I thought Trap should've went post Euros regardless of result, because I thought his race was run - the changing room needed a fresh voice etc. My feelings on Trap are far more complicated than you're suggesting here.

But no POS - I'll give you what I want. I won't admit Trap was wrong because I still think for two campaigns we were relatively successful, albeit relying on stinking football I hated to watch. Personally I was happy to see us compete near the top table again after three campaigns in the wilderness. That does NOT mean I always agreed with the manager, but I tended to understand where he was coming from and to a certain extent I agreed that results backed his position.

Note 'to a certain extent'. I also always took the point we were due some bad results, as predicted by yourself and others. I said as much the other day.

Naturally that's changed. All is in a state of chassis.

Hey disagree with me, anybody, but if you're going to shine a spotlight in my eyes to force an absurd 'admission', you're going to have to do better than: "Admit you were totally wrong because he's changing things now as opposed to sometime over the past three years!!! Admit I was totally right!!!"

Come on, the situation is far more nuanced than that.

Ahh POS - what we gonna talk about when he's gone?!

[Charlie Darwin]

The point I'm making is the results have changed but he has also started to make the changes to the team and formation. This is what was called for well before the debacle of the Euros, because it was clear to see that we had ridden our luck and eventually the wheels would come off. He has changed things around because he knows he got it wrong, as those who backed him now realise too. But had he actually made the changes earlier - things during his overall tenure, i'm not just talking tactical/player here - then he wouldn't have found himself, nor would his trapologists, in this situation.
I fear he didn't change things because he knows he was wrong. He changed because Robbie was unavailable, and now he's changed back to the old defunct ways.

[SwanVsDalton]

I fear he didn't change things because he knows he was wrong. He changed because Robbie was unavailable, and now he's changed back to the old defunct ways.

Think I'm reading you wrong here but - why change back if he knew he was wrong? Think he's just being stubborn for the sake of it now?

[Charlie Darwin]

Yeah, I wrote that awkwardly, I meant he doesn't think he's wrong so there is a different reason why he changed.

[Murfinator]

Barring a disaster tonight we'll have gone 19 away games unbeaten. Some record.

[paul_oshea]

Yep it could well be that CD.

SVD you don't have time to search but you have time to formulate your opinion and constuct that point :D

Its never been a told you so, I said that ages ago, its not gloating its simply annoys me how naive some of you were at the start that all was rosy in the garden. If these changes are made early on, and nipped in the bud, in any sporting team or even organisational context, then they get sorted out and you don't have these problems. Everytime we have a manger we have these 2-4 year cycles where there is a witch-hunt etc etc etc, if Trap had been a little smarter and those that defended him too then we wouldn't be here even having these discussions.

Ok maybe, its a bit too much to admit all that, but admit that your opinion and belief in Trap and his results blights your judgement...and therefore you were wrong :D

[Junior]

POSH, just so Im clear, at what point did you think Trap needed shot of? You havent always been of that mindset and if I was to guess, I'd say pobably mid way through the last campaign? - Its hardly Nostradamus stuff, if so.

Or were you banging on about him being the wrong choice in his first campaign, I dont remember that if its the case.

Lets face it, theres a bit of "I told you so" about your posts these days. Pipe the fcuk down:shock:

[paul_oshea]

I actually think now that i'm more for Trap than I ever have been before.

For whatever reasons, he has made the changes that many have been calling for, dropped the players and tried to alter the system. If only he could sort out his communication issues, I think we could have a great manager. A manager who adapts our system and tactics based on the opponent. Like any good manager managing a non-world beater trying to get the best out of the resources at his disposal. Alas its all probably too late because he has lost the dressing room by the sounds of things.

Its funny managers seem to need a 2 year bedding in period, which I don't understand, and then they have a 2 year happy period, and then it all goes pete tong :) At least from an Irish context.

[Charlie Darwin]

I actually think now that i'm more for Trap than I ever have been before.

For whatever reasons, he has made the changes that many have been calling for, dropped the players and tried to alter the system. If only he could sort out his communication issues, I think we could have a great manager. A manager who adapts our system and tactics based on the opponent.
But he's not that manager, regardless of his communication problem. He tried out a new formation for half a game and then abandoned it for one that was even less suited to the opposition.

[tricky_colour]

http://www.vipboxsports.eu/sports/football.html

Thanks there is a great stream on there showing RTE coverage, ie pre-match stuff.

[DannyInvincible]

The RTÉ stream is here: http://www.vipboxsports.eu/football/88935/2/faroe-islands-vs-ireland-live-stream-online.html

[SwanVsDalton]

Yep it could well be that CD.

SVD you don't have time to search but you have time to formulate your opinion and constuct that point :D

Touche! I guess I mean I can't remember what thread it's from (we post a lot on the same theme POS!) and I'm not au fait enough with the search function to be really bothered looking!


Its never been a told you so, I said that ages ago, its not gloating its simply annoys me how naive some of you were at the start that all was rosy in the garden. If these changes are made early on, and nipped in the bud, in any sporting team or even organisational context, then they get sorted out and you don't have these problems. Everytime we have a manger we have these 2-4 year cycles where there is a witch-hunt etc etc etc, if Trap had been a little smarter and those that defended him too then we wouldn't be here even having these discussions.

I defended Trap because I thought a lot of the criticism is heavy handed and/or hysterical, but - hard as it might be to believe - I did personally think he should've shifted formations, blooded new players quicker, sorted out the communication problems and went after the Euros.

My biggest gripe was we never developed a Plan B, which would help us when the chips were down. Which is why I always took your point (and others) when saying we'd run into a brick wall eventually.

I think that was made difficult by qualification - the manager was bound (rightfully to my mind) to stick with similar personnel, and possibly felt he couldn't meddle much with 'the system' but he definitely should've. And he definitely should've had the werewithal post Euros to say 'it didn't work, we're trying something else'. That to my eyes was a massive failing.

Which all leads me to say - I agree with you more than you think and disagree with Trap more than you think.



Ok maybe, its a bit too much to admit all that, but admit that your opinion and belief in Trap and his results blights your judgement...and therefore you were wrong :D

I think we both know there's two chances of that happening...;)

[SwanVsDalton]

But he's not that manager, regardless of his communication problem. He tried out a new formation for half a game and then abandoned it for one that was even less suited to the opposition.

That's close to how I feel - although I optimistically hope the revert to 442 is due to the opposition. But I suspect if he stayed on we'd be playing 442 for the rest of the campaign because of how 'badly' it did against Germany.

[Charlie Darwin]

Lovely hoof from Wilson there early doors - that's why he's in the team.

[Colbert Report]

Andrews!

[SwanVsDalton]

Andrews should've buried that.