Ireland V Germany 12th October & Faroe Islands 16th October 2012 - World Cup 2014 Q

[Colbert Report]

Coleman over Kelly is a ridiculous, bizarre and disappointing decision. Kelly has been one of our most reliable players the past few years and has been very unfortunate to not have a starting place, whereas Coleman has been poor in each of his cameos. To not start him under any circumstances would be mystifying, to not do it when we're desperately short of experience and composure is outright bizarre. Certainly hope Trap knows what he's doing with this because I'd say this is one of and if not the most wild and potentially costly selections decisions he's made in his tenure.

Kelly hasn't started a competitive match at any level in six months.

[Supreme feet]

Trapattoni; 'We have changed the team and brought in younger players. This team is now very, very young.'
Average age of Irish team: 27.
Average age of expected German team: 26.

[Murfinator]

Kelly hasn't started a competitive match at any level in six months.

We've only played 4 competitive matches in six months. Kelly played a significant number of games on our road to qualification to the Euro's and did well when called upon. Perhaps you misread years as months because otherwise it's an odd thing to point out.

[Closed Account]

Trapattoni; 'We have changed the team and brought in younger players. This team is now very, very young.'
Average age of Irish team: 27.
Average age of expected German team: 26.
In fairness the average age of the squad has gone from 28.35 to 26.21. It's an improvement(although entirely enforced)

[SkStu]

Trapattoni; 'We have changed the team and brought in younger players. This team is now very, very young.'
Average age of Irish team: 27.
Average age of expected German team: 26.

obviously confusing youth with inexperience...

I just want to say that Trappatoni's hands were somewhat tied with regards to his team selections so despite getting some things right (by accident as opposed to by design) he got the two big issues wrong and a number of other smaller issues that we have become used to (Cox on the wing being the most obvious smaller issue).

Ward instead of Wilson is the wrong choice. Wilson has impressed me no end in the games and highlights i have seen of Stoke this year. At left back. In the premiership. Although i have a soft spot for Ward, what he offers is not even close to what Wilson offers us in the same position.

Cox/Walters instead of Long is the wrong choice. I wont press this one too much other than to say this one is the biggest mistake he has made in a litany of mistakes. Ignoring his form and the fact that he is our only striker playing at the highest level, Longs performance up front against Uruguay was the single most impressive display i have seen from an Irish player in an international game since the days of Roy Keane. That he loses out to Walters or Cox (whomever it turns out to be) is beyond bizarre and is indefensible.

Anyway, as i said in a previous post, this game is a win/win for Trap. Lose and he wins. Win and he wins big.

[Murfinator]

Amusingly our starting lineup has a combined career total of 11 goals, Germany has 117. Our most prolific scorer is on 3.
I don't think we've ever even put a team out for a friendly game that was this weak and inexperienced under Trap.

[Colbert Report]

We've only played 4 competitive matches in six months. Kelly played a significant number of games on our road to qualification to the Euro's and did well when called upon. Perhaps you misread years as months because otherwise it's an odd thing to point out.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. He hasn't started a match AT ANY LEVEL, including club level, in six months.

[Fergie's Son]

Other than Long for Walters it's as good as a team as we can expect. Will have to hope we can withstand the initial onslaught and maybe grab one in the break or in off someone's arse. Will be at the match shouting as loud as I can.

[Paddy Garcia]

I've lost track - is Pearce in the squad?

Agree with SkStu - Wilson is a far superior player than Ward.

Mind you if he plays McShane then there is a chance Wilson will get on - assuming Ward gets a firm kick in the heel!

[dr_peepee]

Coleman starting is a strange one given his best assets as a full back are thingsTrap doesn't permit his fullbacks to do?

Like most I'm mystified by Longs abscence.

Had Wilson not pulled out of a couple of squads i wonder would he have displaced Ward in Traps thinking.

I would have Kelly and Wilson as full backs. McGeady and Coleman on the flanks. Long up front. And possibly controversialy Meyler for Fahy..

[Murfinator]

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. He hasn't started a match AT ANY LEVEL, including club level, in six months.

What's this then?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19340530

[Colbert Report]

I don't consider the league cup to be a competitive match. Fwiw, Kelly didn't even complete the full 90 in that match. He hasn't played a single minute in the Premiership in Fulham's first seven matches.

Coleman, on the other hand, has played 308 minutes in the Premiership so far this season.

[Olé Olé]

obviously confusing youth with inexperience...

I just want to say that Trappatoni's hands were somewhat tied with regards to his team selections so despite getting some things right (by accident as opposed to by design) he got the two big issues wrong and a number of other smaller issues that we have become used to (Cox on the wing being the most obvious smaller issue).

Ward instead of Wilson is the wrong choice. Wilson has impressed me no end in the games and highlights i have seen of Stoke this year. At left back. In the premiership. Although i have a soft spot for Ward, what he offers is not even close to what Wilson offers us in the same position.

Cox/Walters instead of Long is the wrong choice. I wont press this one too much other than to say this one is the biggest mistake he has made in a litany of mistakes. Ignoring his form and the fact that he is our only striker playing at the highest level, Longs performance up front against Uruguay was the single most impressive display i have seen from an Irish player in an international game since the days of Roy Keane. That he loses out to Walters or Cox (whomever it turns out to be) is beyond bizarre and is indefensible.

Anyway, as i said in a previous post, this game is a win/win for Trap. Lose and he wins. Win and he wins big.

These are the exact two changes I'd be calling for. Although, in fairness, Walters is playing at the highest level as well.

Wilson is definitely a better left-back than Ward. He's more comfortable on the ball when being pressed (as a centre-midfielder by trade) and his positioning is better than Ward's. I was about to say he is a tad small than Ward, but, as it turns out, he's an inch taller.

I'd have Long in for Cox from the off. In the press conference Trap constantly referred to the need to have someone coming from the bench who can "surprise" the opposition and capitalize on tiredness or lapses in concentration. This totally ignores the fact that for the 60 minutes when Long is not on the pitch, Ireland will have to contain Germany to the extent that our main attacking threat can come in and hand us a result, in a more limited time frame. This is nonsensical. Germany could score a goal, then provide themselves with a quick second before Long has even loosened the drawstrings on his tracksuit pants. The game is over by then.

Cox is a decent player, don't get me wrong. But he won't worry Germany too much. He's not that mobile that he'll interchange between the right of a 3-pronged forward line and a front two in such a manner that tactically baffles some of the more astute footballers on the continent. How I'd love for him to score one of his wonder-goals tomorrow night, from nothing.

There are three things Long is capable of: playing on the wing, playing up front and scoring goals. He's better than Cox at all three (playing on the wing is the only arguable one, an argument which the Kazakhstan game should have settled).

[mark12345]

obviously confusing youth with inexperience...

Ward instead of Wilson is the wrong choice.[/B] Wilson has impressed me no end in the games and highlights i have seen of Stoke this year. At left back. In the premiership. Although i have a soft spot for Ward, what he offers is not even close to what Wilson offers us in the same position.

Cox/Walters instead of Long is the wrong choice.

I would even allow him the mistake of using Cox / Walters if Long proves to be an impact when he comes on. But you are spot on about Ward. Germany will tear him apart. And Wilson will be sitting there wondering what he has to do to get on ahead of a player as bas as Ward. And then when he (Wilson) doesn't show up for the next game we'll all be wondering why?

[Diarmo]

I would even allow him the mistake of using Cox / Walters if Long proves to be an impact when he comes on. But you are spot on about Ward. Germany will tear him apart. And Wilson will be sitting there wondering what he has to do to get on ahead of a player as bas as Ward. And then when he (Wilson) doesn't show up for the next game we'll all be wondering why?

I don't think that not winning your 3rd cap against Germany is grounds for International Retirement at age 25.

Otherwise, given the circumstances I think this team is as good as it could be.

I would perhaps have argued to recall Lawrence, he seems in good form out in Greece and would have been ideal for this type of match.

[Irish_Praha]

I probably missed this earlier in the thread but who will be captain for Ireland tomorrow?

[boovidge]

o'shea

[gastric]

Would agree with many here, I would have liked to have seen Wilson start. Considering our injuries, it is not a bad team and gives the likes of McCarthy and Coleman an opportunity to prove themselves against one of the best teams in the world. C'mon Ireland!

[Noelys Guitar]

Boateng starting for the Germans. I thought he was really poor against Italy in the Euros (choked)and hopefully continues like that tomorrow. They still have a top drawer team even with their injury list. We have to hope they don't click as a unit. And under no circumstances can we go behind early or really at all.

[NeverFeltBetter]

I get the thinking behind Cox, I would even have been intrigued when it was first mooted for him to be an extra midfielder without the ball, moving into an attacking role when we have the ball. 4-5-1 to 4-4-2 or what have you. But there is only so many times where it doesn't work before you really start to get exasperated. We'll see tomorrow.

[dong]

Much as I admire Seamus Coleman I fear for him in this game.
Despite all his promise I don't believe he has developed into a top defender. His attributes in an attacking sense won't be permitted so I see him as being on a hiding to nothing tomorrow night.
I would love nothing more than for him to prove me wrong obviously.

[Noelys Guitar]

Much as I admire Seamus Coleman I fear for him in this game.
Despite all his promise I don't believe he has developed into a top defender. His attributes in an attacking sense won't be permitted so I see him as being on a hiding to nothing tomorrow night.
I would love nothing more than for him to prove me wrong obviously.

I wasn't convinced on the evidence of his last game for Everton at full back. I worry he might give away a peno as he has a tendecy to lunge in when it is not necessary. But he has some excellent qualities and I'm HOPING that his speed and especially distribution (possibly the reason Trapatonni chose him) will win out tomorrow. O'Shea has the most important job tomorrow in organising our defense. We cant start off flat footed like we did at the Euro's. O'Shea has to get on Ward's case from the off and stop him being pulled out of position.

[SwanVsDalton]

Longs performance up front against Uruguay was the single most impressive display i have seen from an Irish player in an international game since the days of Roy Keane.

I take your overall point and Long's proven himself at this level - but really? Long was pretty good as I recall, but that game was notable for featuring two sides who didn't appear to bother with any kind of defending. End-to-end kick and rush, chances and goals galore - it was probably the oddest Ireland friendly I've ever seen, more street kickabout than typical international.

Entertaining as it was, it wasn't the kind of game to enhance reputations.

[Charlie Darwin]

what does it matter when they find out? teams change formations all the time during matches. the germans will have a plan for 442, 433, 4231, a plan for them going down to 10 men, us going down to 10 men etc etc. It makes no difference really as they will just seemlessly adapt at whatever stage our secret tactics are thrown at them
I think this is a bit simplistic. You're right, it doesn't matter when the Germans find out, but that doesn't necessarily mean they will adapt to our tactics. Trap was right to be open about the 433/451 (he won't play a 442 no matter what he says), and for a side like Ireland, who have to set up to spoil the superior opposition's plans, it doesn't matter that the formation is known in advance because Germany aren't planning to counter our formation, they're planning to play their own game regardless of how we're set up. They will play the same way in any case, but we can definitely shut them down with the right game plan, and in a lot of ways international football is suited to teams like Ireland who can nullify the opposition's strengths.


Hearing Walters has got the nod with Cox on the wing. What didn't work against Kazakhstan is now going to work against the Germans? Bizarre if true.
We played two up top against Kazakhstan, this is completely different.


Walters will run until his testicles fall off and cause a real physical problem for the defence. When they're tired, Long can come on with fresh legs and tear them to pieces. That's how Johnny is used at Stoke, at least.
Wow, I knew he was stocky but I didn't know his thighs were that thick. That would indeed cause a problem for any defence, if only for making the surface more slippery.


2 - 1 to Ireland

Cox with a screamer in the first half and ward with a header in the second
You're going to feel so silly when this is exactly what happens.


Delighted to see Fahey too. Remember the last time he played against a German side in Ireland? He was awesome against Hertha Berlin. I hope he does well.
Playing in a 442, incidentally, alongside a striker.

[Charlie Darwin]

3 ex-League of Ireland players starting with 3 more on the bench. Doyle probably would have started if fit, and McClean also failed a fitness test. That's as good an endorsement of the league as we've had in yonks, yet still there'll not even be such thing as a half-time announcement encouraging fans to get out and see their local clubs on Saturday.

[DannyInvincible]

Just about to head to bed and the excitement is truly building now. No idea what to expect...

http://wp.patheos.com.s3.amazonaws.com/blogs/deaconsbench/files/2012/10/man-praying-with-rosary.jpg

Sweet Jesus, just give them strength!

[gastric]

It is going to be an interesting game. While were are up against it to even manage a draw, a result would give Ireland the shot in the arm, confidence wise, that it needs. If we lose, the post mortem will include criticism, I am sure, of Trap's failure to play the likes of Coleman and McCarthy more regularly in friendlies.
One positive that hopefully that will emerge from the game are that some of the fringe players play well and give Trap a selection headache for the next phase of qualifying. Coleman's inclusion, while possibly risky, could turn out to be a master stroke if he plays at his best. I envy you lot who get to watch it, for some stupid reason, no one is showing it over here ( which is very surprising), we get I think, Croatia/ Macedonia instead! Great!

[SkStu]

I take your overall point and Long's proven himself at this level - but really? Long was pretty good as I recall, but that game was notable for featuring two sides who didn't appear to bother with any kind of defending. End-to-end kick and rush, chances and goals galore - it was probably the oddest Ireland friendly I've ever seen, more street kickabout than typical international.

Entertaining as it was, it wasn't the kind of game to enhance reputations.

Although I realize that we shouldn't take friendlies too seriously in terms of reading much into the results, Long tore a couple of wily defenders the proverbial new one that night. He was excellent, a stand-out. If you play well, you play well in my opinion.

Can you think of any other stand-out individual performances since Roy left (the second time!) that would rival Longs? (granted you didn't rate it as highly as I did). Richard Dunne away to Russia is a gimme.

[SwanVsDalton]

Although I realize that we shouldn't take friendlies too seriously in terms of reading much into the results, Long tore a couple of wily defenders the proverbial new one that night. He was excellent, a stand-out. If you play well, you play well in my opinion.

That's fair enough, don't want to take away from friendlies in general - just that game in particular was a bit of a weird one.


Can you think of any other stand-out individual performances since Roy left (the second time!) that would rival Longs? (granted you didn't rate it as highly as I did). Richard Dunne away to Russia is a gimme.

They'd be thin enough on the ground right enough, but Roy left a high standard. Possibles: Andrews in Paris '09. Robbie against Italy in Bari, when he dropped deep. Robbie away to Macedonia last year scoring both goals (not an amazing performance but two goals nonetheless). I'm certain Shay's had a few big games in that time, bit of a gimme as well.

I think it's fair to say Shane could be one of our most influential players - if he was picked.

[Charlie Darwin]

I can sort of understand the logic of leaving him until late, but it depends on the opposition defence being fatigued or complacent - by no means a certainty.

[Charlie Darwin]

On a side note, looking at that squad, thank **** we have O'Shea.

[tricky_colour]

While Walters isn't high in the goalscoring charts, he has three assists this season in the league, more than anyone else in the Stoke team, so I imagine his brief will be "you know what you do for your club, do that."

I am not sure where you got that stat from but I looked it up on 'my stat site' and it says he only has one assist (Same as Glenn Whelan). Now the site could be wrong but 1 sounds more likely than 3 to me.

If Trap were going to go for the man with the most exists he would have gone for Long, but Trap is never one for such obvious tactics, he knows the value of the element of surprise.

When the German manager looks at our squad he will be as baffled and confused as many here. He will be full of fear and trepidation wondering what Trap is up to, that same fear will spread to his squad.
Round 1 to Trap, it's as good as a goal start for us.

[tricky_colour]

Amusingly our starting lineup has a combined career total of 11 goals, Germany has 117. Our most prolific scorer is on 3.
I don't think we've ever even put a team out for a friendly game that was this weak and inexperienced under Trap.


I wonder what the odds on us getting beat 11-1 are?

[tricky_colour]

I too would probably have started Long instead of Walter or indeed started them both.

From a statistical point of view Walters (2nd) is actually above Long (3rd) in the stats I looked at, albeit only marginally
90 v 100. (Wilson is 1st at no. 50). I am not to sure why, Long has 2 goals and 2 assists, Walters 1 of each.
The only area Walters is ahead in is in passes par game (26 v 13).
Oh there is one other area, the one which probably clinched it for Trap, aerial battle won, 3.9 v 1.

Ward V Wilson is a trickier one, however last season they were within a point of each other, all the
above stats are based on the 7 or so games this season so a bit unreliable. Ward had a better pass rate
77% v 65%.

I am pretty happy with Coleman over Kelly, Coleman has impressed me on a number of a occasions not
least very recently when he got pass 2 players and put a good cross in IIRC.

[CraftyToePoke]

I can sort of understand the logic of leaving him until late, but it depends on the opposition defence being fatigued or complacent - by no means a certainty.

It also depends on us holding them or still being in the game at least if/when he is introduced. Id much prefer having him start and try to nick something to hold on to maybe, little point throwing him in when the game is gone, as lets face it, it could well be if the recent Spain/Italy/Croatia games are any guide. But we can hope ....

[gastric]

[QUOTE=tricky_colour;1634541]I am not sure where you got that stat from but I looked it up on 'my stat site' and it says he only has one assist (Same as Glenn Whelan). Now the site could be wrong but 1 sounds more likely than 3 to me.

If Trap were going to go for the man with the most exists he would have gone for Long, but Trap is never one for such obvious tactics, he knows the value of the element of surprise.

When the German manager looks at our squad he will be as baffled and confused as many here. He will be full of fear and trepidation wondering what Trap is up to, that same fear will spread to his squad.

And then the Germans laughed! " Fis is a very funny joke, ya. ' Ze Irish team is like their economy - baffling and confusing.' ' Ze know nooothing!' ;)

[theworm2345]

Have to say I have no expectations (or excitement) for this match whatsoever, kind of expecting something similar to the Russia match at home. I hope I'm wrong.

[DannyInvincible]

Have to say I have no expectations (or excitement) for this match whatsoever, kind of expecting something similar to the Russia match at home. I hope I'm wrong.

I think my excitement is rooted in the prospect of the unknown. I have similarly low expectations but it adds to the sense of having nothing to lose, so I'm simply hoping what is a rather novel and inexperienced selection - albeit forced and not entirely to my favour - rise to the occasion and give it a right go. In a way, the Russia match in Moscow was certainly exciting!

[pineapple stu]

So no Given, Dunne, Duff or Keane.

Welcome to the future...

Tonight will reveal a lot if nothing else.

[shakermaker1982]

A draw would be a miracle. The Guardian had an article on the Germans yesterday and mentioned some disharmony within the squad but Low was pretty calm about it. They'd have to be in complete disarray for them to not tear us a new one.

I'd have preferred Coleman at RM with Kelly in at RB. Ward shouldn't be allowed near an Irish squad until he learns how to defend.

Damage limitation is the best we can realistically aim for.

Ireland 0 Germany 2

[tetsujin1979]

I am not sure where you got that stat from but I looked it up on 'my stat site' and it says he only has one assist (Same as Glenn Whelan). Now the site could be wrong but 1 sounds more likely than 3 to me.

If Trap were going to go for the man with the most exists he would have gone for Long, but Trap is never one for such obvious tactics, he knows the value of the element of surprise.

When the German manager looks at our squad he will be as baffled and confused as many here. He will be full of fear and trepidation wondering what Trap is up to, that same fear will spread to his squad.
Round 1 to Trap, it's as good as a goal start for us.i got it from the premier
league's fantasy football site. they've credited him with three assists, against Wigan, Man City and Swansea. Whelan has two, against Reading and Swansea

[gastric]

With no offence meant to O'Shea, he is certainly stating the bleeding obvious in this article!

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/sport/oshea-wary-of-german-talent-3257316.html

[geysir]

Interesting to note that the first thing many people see is something to moan about, rather than appreciate the biggest shift in Trap's tenure.
I'm really looking forward to this game.
For me the plusses are competitive starts for Coleman and McCarthy and in all probability they will be part of the team for the next 8 to 10 years.
Not just for those 2 players, but what they bring to the team, that what has been missing.
Added to that, this is the first time we have 3 at CM, with 2 of them being technically capable players.
Cox is also technically gifted and versatile, he could be the type of player we need to get us out of pigeon hole, player role mentality.
Splitting hairs with Walters up front instead of Long, we'll see how it works, both players have their merits.
Having Long as a sub is a potent choice to throw into the game.

[tricky_colour]

i got it from the premier
league's fantasy football site. they've credited him with three assists, against Wigan, Man City and Swansea. Whelan has two, against Reading and Swansea


Interesting!! I have found the site (I think), this is the page:-
http://www.premierleague.com/en-gb/players/profile.statistics.html/jonathan-walters

It now says he has 4 assists!! and 2 goals.

The site I looked at was
http://www.whoscored.com/Players/3860


That gives him 1 goal and 1 assist!! Quite big discrepancy!!
I would be more inclined to believe the premier league site though as I expect people check their players are being awarded all their points.
So lies dammed lies and statistics!!
Mind you another site I looked at only gives him 1 goal two.

A third site gives him 2 goals but one is in the Carling Cup, it also lists an Ireland game, so maybe that is included as well.

Kazakhstan 1 - 2 Ireland
Stoke 3 - 4 Swindon (Walters scores 1)

So he has either 2 or 3 more assists perhaps coming from those games.
Now Ward provided an assist V Kazakhstan and the other goal was a Keane penalty for a foul on Keane
so no more assists there. So the 2 or 3 assists must have came from the other game, he can't have got 3 assists as he scored one of them!! Had a look at that game and he may have got 1 assist but not 2. Can be 100% sure Walters
provided a cross but it looks like him on the poor quality video.
The site I look at original only includes Premiership games (I think).

[tetsujin1979]

Interesting!! I have found the site (I think), this is the page:-
http://www.premierleague.com/en-gb/players/profile.statistics.html/jonathan-walters

It now says he has 4 assists!! and 2 goals.
close, but I got it from here: http://fantasy.premierleague.com/stats/elements/?element_filter=te_14&stat_filter=assists
Still has him on 3 assists, same site (well same premierleague.com domain), but different values


The site I looked at was
http://www.whoscored.com/Players/3860


That gives him 1 goal and 1 assist!! Quite big discrepancy!!
I would be more inclined to believe the premier league site though as I expect people check their players are being awarded all their points.
So lies dammed lies and statistics!!
Mind you another site I looked at only gives him 1 goal two.

A third site gives him 2 goals but one is in the Carling Cup, it also lists an Ireland game, so maybe that is included as well.

Kazakhstan 1 - 2 Ireland
Stoke 3 - 4 Swindon (Walters scores 1)

So he has either 2 or 3 more assists perhaps coming from those games.
Now Ward provided an assist V Kazakhstan and the other goal was a Keane penalty for a foul on Keane
so no more assists there. So the 2 or 3 assists must have came from the other game, he can't have got 3 assists as he scored one of them!!
I had a look at Squawka as well: http://www.squawka.com/players/jonathan-walters (click total chances created)
and they only list one assist as well, with 7 key passes

[bishbash]

The plus side is that he may actually go with 3 central midfielders, i think this is the only way we'll compete in the future. Ward for me is probably the 3rd choice left back, poor performances obviously dont get you dropped. I'm wary of Coleman at full back, would liked to have seen him on the right side of midfield with McGeady on the left. Happy with O'Shea at centre half, much prefer a Dunne-O'Shea partnership going forward. Cox is an ok player but it must be obvious that he's miles behind Shane Long. Playing a 4-5-1 incorporating McClean, Dunne and Ciaran Clark/Marc Wilson would offer some hope.

[the doc]

The usual doom and gloom on here I see.
We will get at least a point tonight.
In Mr Trapattoni and the lads we trust.

[the doc]

The plus side is that he may actually go with 3 central midfielders, i think this is the only way we'll compete in the future. Ward for me is probably the 3rd choice left back, poor performances obviously dont get you dropped. I'm wary of Coleman at full back, would liked to have seen him on the right side of midfield with McGeady on the left. Happy with O'Shea at centre half, much prefer a Dunne-O'Shea partnership going forward. Cox is an ok player but it must be obvious that he's miles behind Shane Long. Playing a 4-5-1 incorporating McClean, Dunne and Ciaran Clark/Marc Wilson would offer some hope.

In recent games its been St Ledger carrying and covering for Dunne.

It's St Ledger with Dunne/OShea for me

[strangeirish]

The usual doom and gloom on here I see.
We will get at least a point tonight.
In Mr Trapattoni and the lads we trust.Well, I had a dream last night that we beat them 3-0. Of course, the last time I had a dream like that, we won the World Cup too.

[the bear]

In recent games its been St Ledger carrying and covering for Dunne.

It's St Ledger with Dunne/OShea for me

Agreed, no shortage of confidence either