World Cup qualifying group C

[Charlie Darwin]

You love your stats Tets, clarence seedorf/c karembau anybody?
Paul mcgrath won diddly squat - probably rubbish?
I think you'll find Paul McGrath won a diddly FA Cup and a diddly League Cup, as well as PFA Player of the Year, the latter two when he was operating with approximately 0 knees.

[geysir]

Good for him, read that didnt you?
I thought anyone that claims to know a little about football knew that Ibrahimovic is the most lauded player ever in the Serie A - and that would not need to be mentioned.
That someone would make an absurd claim that "He had one great tourno in the Euros - and that's it", is clearly not at the races ;)

[SkStu]

dQ47Hv6cVfQ

Class act. We better not be giving up anything scrappy around the edge of the box.

[Charlie Darwin]

We had the same worries about Berbatov though. Ibrahimovic is a world class player but he blows hot and cold. He can carry an entire team on his own (Inter's two-leg loss to Man United a few years back for example) but, perversely, I think he is less effective when he's surrounded by a "team". He excels when he is the star and the focal point, which is why I think he struggles to get his best form for Sweden where everybody works for one another rather than just him.

[geysir]

It's a long time since he struggled for Sweden, he is the focal point for them and the team is built around him there in the free role

[Charlie Darwin]

Ah, ok. I haven't really seen Sweden for a few years so I thought that's how it still was.

Regardless, I'd prefer a Sweden without Ibra than with.

[bennocelt]

I thought anyone that claims to know a little about football knew that Ibrahimovic is the most lauded player ever in the Serie A - and that would not need to be mentioned.
That someone would make an absurd claim that "He had one great tourno in the Euros - and that's it", is clearly not at the races ;)

He did have a good tourno, thats undeniable, but i cant ever remember him doing it in club football, near the handy end of the CL?
i dont know whats happening in serie a, but then who does over this side of the world?

[bennocelt]

I think you'll find Paul McGrath won a diddly FA Cup and a diddly League Cup, as well as PFA Player of the Year, the latter two when he was operating with approximately 0 knees.

Really? Wow, cant remember that one,, Im guessing it was with utd early on then?

[Charlie Darwin]

Yeah, it was 1985, when Norman Whiteside scored the winner and Kevin Moran was sent off.

[bennocelt]

Yeah, it was 1985, when Norman Whiteside scored the winner and Kevin Moran was sent off.

Bit too early for me then as i was just a nipper. Point stands some players have a big trophy cabinet while Paul Mcgrath and others should have more (for whatever reasons), but Mcgrath was consistently good all through his career unlike Zlaton Imbra, who (as u mentioned) was/is hot and cold, and despite what some here think he has many critics (Alan Hansen for one) and he does divide opinion.
i have also heard that there is a stat (loathe as I am to use them!) that Sweden actually get better results without him on the team? True?

[Charlie Darwin]

Was McGrath not also hot and cold? He wasn't just turfed out of Old Trafford because of his alcoholism.

[Junior]

Was McGrath not also hot and cold? He wasn't just turfed out of Old Trafford because of his alcoholism.

That was pretty much it, was it not?

[Charlie Darwin]

That was pretty much it, was it not?
Then why was he released and Bryan Robson wasn't?

[Colbert Report]

Bryan Robson was the English captain. Paul McGrath was a drunk, black Irishman.

[peadar1987]

Then why was he released and Bryan Robson wasn't?

Perhaps he wasn't on such good terms with Ferguson. Stam, Beckham and van Nistelrooy could tell you that severely limits your time at Old Trafford.

[Charlie Darwin]

Perhaps there was a bit of that, but I think it was more a basic decision that Robson was vital to the team despite his drinking and McGrath was dispensable. I have no doubt that Ferguson would have kept McGrath if he'd thought he was worth the effort, but he didn't. And he's since gone on record and said it's the biggest mistake he's made, not recognising McGrath's talent.

[Colbert Report]

I've also heard him say that selling Jaap Stam was his biggest mistake, and not signing Paul Gascoigne was his biggest mistake.

[osarusan]

Perhaps there was a bit of that, but I think it was more a basic decision that Robson was vital to the team despite his drinking and McGrath was dispensable. I have no doubt that Ferguson would have kept McGrath if he'd thought he was worth the effort, but he didn't. And he's since gone on record and said it's the biggest mistake he's made, not recognising McGrath's talent.

I think it was more that Ferguson thought McGrath's knees were so crocked that he only had a couple of seasons left in him anyway.

[ArdeeBhoy]

He's right about PMcG.

And my Swedish pal (former sports editor of "Aftonbladet") says Ibra's as 'good' as Rooney, just not as fat...
Whilst laughing.

So clearly the best striker in Europe then...
:)

[SkStu]

Swedish media agenda...

(former... :) )

[AlaskaFox]

He did have a good tourno, thats undeniable, but i cant ever remember him doing it in club football, near the handy end of the CL?
i dont know whats happening in serie a, but then who does over this side of the world?

I don't remember Paul McGrath doing it in the handy end of the CL/European Cup. But for a player who has done nothing in Europe, Zlatan seems to have scored 31 goals in 94 games, and got 17 assists. How he did that while being totally useless, I don't know.

[BonnieShels]

The ban on English teams in Europe didn't help Paul's chances to play in Europe or be involved at the business end of same.

[bennocelt]

I don't remember Paul McGrath doing it in the handy end of the CL/European Cup. But for a player who has done nothing in Europe, Zlatan seems to have scored 31 goals in 94 games, and got 17 assists. How he did that while being totally useless, I don't know.


Thats my point!
Mcgrath was pretty much brilliant anytime I ever seen him play! For whatever reasons (dodgy knee, drunk, bad luck) he never did get that far.
Dont care about stats. - Rather your own insight from games he played and you watched?
Remember, David May once won a European Cup!

[tetsujin1979]

Thats my point!
Mcgrath was pretty much brilliant anytime I ever seen him play! For whatever reasons (dodgy knee, drunk, bad luck) he never did get that far.
Dont care about stats. - Rather your own insight from games he played and you watched?
Remember, David May once won a European Cup!
so is Ibrahimovic a good player or not?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Good undoubtedly, but questionable if the 'best' in Europe...

Let alone the world, FFS!

[tetsujin1979]

Good undoubtedly, but questionable if the 'best' in Europe...

Let alone the world, FFS!who was claiming he was the best in Europe? He's probably Sweden's best player, definitely their main goal threat and one of the players I'm most nervous about facing.

[AlaskaFox]

Thats my point!
Mcgrath was pretty much brilliant anytime I ever seen him play! For whatever reasons (dodgy knee, drunk, bad luck) he never did get that far.
Dont care about stats. - Rather your own insight from games he played and you watched?
Remember, David May once won a European Cup!

I've seen Ibra a good few times, and he's looked sharp for the majority of them.

Not caring about stats is pretty narrow-minded. Stats don't and won't tell you everything, but they're a fairly good indicator of performance. Like the stats regarding Stewart Downing's goals and assists last season. He was just as bad as they indicated.

[ArdeeBhoy]

who was claiming he was the best in Europe?

Let's just say, 'a few eejits'.

[bennocelt]

so is Ibrahimovic a good player or not?

Over rated - certainly not going to get on the barca team for example:D

[bennocelt]

I've seen Ibra a good few times, and he's looked sharp for the majority of them.

Not caring about stats is pretty narrow-minded. Stats don't and won't tell you everything, but they're a fairly good indicator of performance. Like the stats regarding Stewart Downing's goals and assists last season. He was just as bad as they indicated.

I disagree as you can virtually prove anything with stats - Could argue that Downing got better stats than X,Y and Z player, yadda yadda.

Do you know any player that was signed on bare stats alone?

[tetsujin1979]

I disagree as you can virtually prove anything with stats - Could argue that Downing got better stats than X,Y and Z player, yadda yadda.

Do you know any player that was signed on bare stats alone?Downing allegedly was. He created more chances than any other winger the season before with Villa for Heskey up front. The logic was Downing + Caroll = goals
I read before that Everton started scouting Coleman after examining his stats in Football Manager, they have an agreement with Sports Interactive who make the game for access to their database. The Collyer brothers, who founded SI, are both Everton season ticket holders.

[SkStu]

I disagree as you can virtually prove anything with stats - Could argue that Downing got better stats than X,Y and Z player, yadda yadda.

Do you know any player that was signed on bare stats alone?

Have you happened to read or see Moneyball? It's a super story but that's besides the point - the same methods of examining stats, using metrics and analyzing team dynamics used by Billy Beane in order to assemble a competitive, successful team on a shoestring budget are increasingly being used in football. As covered in the book Soccernomics (by Simon Kuper & Stefan Szymanski) there has been a trend towards the same stats based approach to the transfer market by a lot of managers and, in fact, the traditional approach of just buying the best player is considered archaic. I'm not saying its all 100% stats based at this stage (mostly because only the biggest leagues keep detailed & worthwhile stats) but the role of the scout and manager has changed dramatically in the last 10 years.

[Charlie Darwin]

Is the Football Manager database not just an elaborate scouting system? It's fallible like any other scout but undoubtedly useful for manager (and probably a lot of work-shy scouts too).

[bennocelt]

Downing allegedly was. He created more chances than any other winger the season before with Villa for Heskey up front. The logic was Downing + Caroll = goals
I read before that Everton started scouting Coleman after examining his stats in Football Manager, they have an agreement with Sports Interactive who make the game for access to their database. The Collyer brothers, who founded SI, are both Everton season ticket holders.


So it didnt work out then?

As for money ball, was that not overblown? I read somewhere that it wasnt as successful as many make out - not that I know a whole lot about baseball tbh
Big Sam likes his stats - enough said

[Colbert Report]

No, money ball definitely worked in baseball, just look at how the Athletics lost all their good players to free agency and then actually got better the next season with cheaper players, mostly unknowns. It simply doesn't work in football though, just look at Downing as others have pointed out as a fine example. I remember hearing an interview with John Henry when he said the stat they looked at most was how many times a player won the ball in open play and then his team went on to score a goal in the same play. Baseball sure, but in football, I think there's probably an average of about two goals per match at the Premiership level, so I'm not sure how well that stat serves you in judging how good a player is. That's what I love about football - you have to actually watch the matches to get to know the game.

[SkStu]

Regardless of punters opinions on their validity in football, they're being used which was Benno's original question. I would recommend Soccernomics to anyone with an interest in the stats behind football. It's a very good read for the most part.

[bennocelt]

No, money ball definitely worked in baseball, just look at how the Athletics lost all their good players to free agency and then actually got better the next season with cheaper players, mostly unknowns. It simply doesn't work in football though, just look at Downing as others have pointed out as a fine example. I remember hearing an interview with John Henry when he said the stat they looked at most was how many times a player won the ball in open play and then his team went on to score a goal in the same play. Baseball sure, but in football, I think there's probably an average of about two goals per match at the Premiership level, so I'm not sure how well that stat serves you in judging how good a player is. That's what I love about football - you have to actually watch the matches to get to know the game.

Cough!:D

[tetsujin1979]

So it didnt work out then?

As for money ball, was that not overblown? I read somewhere that it wasnt as successful as many make out - not that I know a whole lot about baseball tbh
Big Sam likes his stats - enough said
Red Sox won the World Series in 2004 after almost a century of underachievement using moneyball tactics

[Colbert Report]

Red Sox won the World Series in 2004 after almost a century of underachievement using moneyball tactics

I don't know how big of a baseball fan you are, but in fairness, that's a very misguided statement. Yeah, they put that on the screen at the end of the Brad Pitt film but most of the players the Red Sox had were on the roster before the advent of moneyball tactics became mainstream. The biggest play they had was actually in game four of the ALCS against the Yankees when David Roberts stole second. Keep in mind that Boston were down 3-0 in the series and down to their final few outs at the time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_American_League_Championship_Series#Game_4

[tetsujin1979]

I don't know how big of a baseball fan you are, but in fairness, that's a very misguided statement. Yeah, they put that on the screen at the end of the Brad Pitt film but most of the players the Red Sox had were on the roster before the advent of moneyball tactics became mainstream. The biggest play they had was actually in game four of the ALCS against the Yankees when David Roberts stole second. Keep in mind that Boston were down 3-0 in the series and down to their final few outs at the time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_American_League_Championship_Series#Game_4ACt ually, I was in Boston for that series, and was back again in 2007 for the World Series win for a wedding. Told this to a woman at the wedding and she said "you're a lucky charm, you have to move here!" and I laughed, and then she grabbed my arm and said "no, seriously, you *have* to move here"
a year later, I was in Philadelphia for another wedding (lot of my mates marrying American girls) and who won the World Series in 2008?

[Kingdom]

ACtually, I was in Boston for that series, and was back again in 2007 for the World Series win for a wedding. Told this to a woman at the wedding and she said "you're a lucky charm, you have to move here!" and I laughed, and then she grabbed my arm and said "no, seriously, you *have* to move here"
a year later, I was in Philadelphia for another wedding (lot of my mates marrying American girls) and who won the World Series in 2008?

World Series?:p

[Charlie Darwin]

ACtually, I was in Boston for that series, and was back again in 2007 for the World Series win for a wedding. Told this to a woman at the wedding and she said "you're a lucky charm, you have to move here!" and I laughed, and then she grabbed my arm and said "no, seriously, you *have* to move here"
a year later, I was in Philadelphia for another wedding (lot of my mates marrying American girls) and who won the World Series in 2008?
I thought that story was going to end with "it was my wedding, to the woman who grabbed my arm."

[rebelmusic]

Watching the Faroes against Germany...they're playing a 4-4-2....if you paint bits of your tv green it's like watching a premonition of the game next month..

[tetsujin1979]

I thought that story was going to end with "it was my wedding, to the woman who grabbed my arm." no, she was married. her husband was watching the game with her as well!

[abcd]

Can anyone tell me was the Faroes games against Austria due to be played in June 2012 actually held? Can't find a result for it

On rte when the fixtures were agreed the following was included:

"In an unusual turn, the participating teams agreed to play one match, Faroe Islands v Austria, in early June 2012. This proposal was supported by UEFA".

[Supreme feet]

Can anyone tell me was the Faroes games against Austria due to be played in June 2012 actually held? Can't find a result for it

On rte when the fixtures were agreed the following was included:

"In an unusual turn, the participating teams agreed to play one match, Faroe Islands v Austria, in early June 2012. This proposal was supported by UEFA".

They're playing each other in March and October next year, according to Wikipedia.

[AlaskaFox]

UEFA made them move it to coincide with the rest of the fixtures in other groups, as far as I know.

[ifk101]

Two games in our group tomorrow night. Sweden-Kazakhstan and Austria-Germany.

Don't think Sweden will have much trouble beating Kazakhstan. They had a 1-0 win against China last Thursday but really should have won by more as they created 4 or 5 clear goal scoring chances. Just on the argument of whether we have players with the ability to play the game on the ground or not, I noticed Jonas Olsson (West Brom) is encouraged to play the ball out of defence for Sweden. Olsson wouldn't be noted for his passing abilities.

[Charlie Darwin]

Sweden probably won't have much trouble but hopefully Kazakhstan's brutal last-minute defeat will motivate them to make it a real match. Doubtful though.

[Noelys Guitar]

Austria to beat Germany?