Euro 2012 General Discussion

[Stuttgart88]

What peed me off about BBC was when Pique was penalised in the first half, harshly but not ridiculously, for winning a header while having his arm over his opponent's shoulder.

Keown then said "It's fast becoming that you can't even jump anymore". That's just ******. The Greek guy was hard done by in game 1 but that type of offence has barely been a theme of this or any other tournament in my opinion. It was just a tough decision on Pique, only that.

Then they missed the ref's whistle when Nani was fould but stayed on his feet. Ref should have played advantage but their commentary suggested he blew late, which he didn't.

Also, Nani could have stayed on his feet in another incident but didn't. He was fouled but his actions following the foul misled the ref, understandably in my opinion, into thinking he was conning him.

There was no understanding of this.

Then the ref rightly spotted a clear foul that Keown thought was a dive. Keown immediately pulled up the ref and when being clearly contradicted in the replay only barely and begruidgingly accepted it saying (again wrongly) that "yer man went down easily though" when he was actually tripped up.

[Junior]

The first penalty missed last night is not at odds with those statistics.
Those stats go up to 2006.
The missed first penalties from last night would be part another batch of statistics, which may or may not read different to the stats I posted :)

The stats suggested the first penalty was easiest of 5? However, I do concede that they didnt suggest they were unmissable:D


A cricket aficionado (and I am not one) would tell you that a penalty shoot out is not cricket. A cricket commentator would be baffled trying to make head or tail out of what transpires at the end of a drawn semi final. The batting order in a game of cricket is based on certain principles which do not necessarily apply to a penalty shoot out.

Those cricket oficionados certainly know how to state the bleeding obvious. Note to self must ensure analogies have more humour attached to them.


Offhand I don't know if there is any particular outstanding approach a team uses towards penalty shoot outs. I certainly have no definite opinions, just an interest. I only suggested a reason as to why Ronaldo went for the 5th one. i don't know why he did, but I doubt if it was that he picked the 5th straw :)
Does a team generally put out their established top penalty taker first, in a penalty shoot out?

Im not sure tbh but it just seems a bit of a bizarre decision to put your established penalty taker last in the queue of 5 when there is every chance the lesser established penalty takers go before you and presumably have a higher chance of missing - thus leaving you with a higher chance of not ever getting to take yours!!

However, we all know at that stage the 'best' often miss theirs & the duds (Cascarino Italy90) can put theirs away!!

[geysir]

What peed me off about BBC was when Pique was penalised in the first half, harshly but not ridiculously, for winning a header while having his arm over his opponent's shoulder.

Keown then said "It's fast becoming that you can't even jump anymore".

Yeah, Keown was in a grumpy mood alright.

Basically this has been a 2 group Euro finals, groups b&c. You'd have to concede that Germany have the big advantage going into tonight's game. They've been building this team since 2006, have some quality players, an experienced squad with depth and playing some of the best attractive football at international level, not to mention an easy run out in the 1/4 finals, an extra couple of days rest and a first team all fit and suspension free.
Nevertheless I'm more partial towards scandal, chaos, unpredictable factors which might turn out brilliant and a 33 year old midfielder who'll still run the legs off any younger pretender and still exemplify the attributes of a timeless art over and above what modernity was brought to the game.

[paul_oshea]

Italy are gradually getting better as the tournament goes on, like always. Andremember Germany have never beaten Italy in a competitive tournament match bar at U21 level.

[CraftyToePoke]

BBC were incredibly negative about the game in the parts I watched over there. Gary Lineker was slating it on Twitter too. I thought it was an entertaining game, OK there were few chances but tactically it was fascinating. Portugal pressed all over the pitch and had the technical ability to hold on to possession themselves when they won the ball, some of the tackling from Moutinho et al in midfield was brilliant at times and while, overall it resulted in the teams nullifying each other Portugal, arguably, created the more clear cut chances in the 90 minutes and pressed Spain into more mistakes than anyone has done in a long time.

Nice post. I was very entertained by it also, and felt the BBC gave little or no awareness of how well Portugal did in doing what we are repeatedly told cannot be done, they shut Spain down, shut the game down for large parts. I found it fascinating. However, it did reveal that when two technically proficient, possession led sides refuse to let the other have the ball, it can end up looking a lot like any two sides who cannot keep it, and the BBC treated it like this, which I think was wrong of them.

Also there was humour in Keown repeatedly saying 'he can't be a center half' as his Spanish equivalent, (Ramos or Pique) took free kicks and a superb penalty. I thought it captured how long the road ahead is for the game in England, and by extension here also.

[CraftyToePoke]

Italy are gradually getting better as the tournament goes on, like always. Andremember Germany have never beaten Italy in a competitive tournament match bar at U21 level.

They are, the dark art of tournament football in its glory eh? The rascals.

Spain hadn't beaten France competitively till the other night either though. Cannot wait for 7.45.

[BonnieShels]

What peed me off about BBC was when Pique was penalised in the first half, harshly but not ridiculously, for winning a header while having his arm over his opponent's shoulder.

Keown then said "It's fast becoming that you can't even jump anymore". That's just ******. The Greek guy was hard done by in game 1 but that type of offence has barely been a theme of this or any other tournament in my opinion. It was just a tough decision on Pique, only that.

Houghton said exactly the same thing on RTÉ.



Then they missed the ref's whistle when Nani was fould but stayed on his feet. Ref should have played advantage but their commentary suggested he blew late, which he didn't.

Again Houghton made the same error.


Also, Nani could have stayed on his feet in another incident but didn't. He was fouled but his actions following the foul misled the ref, understandably in my opinion, into thinking he was conning him.

There was no understanding of this.

Then the ref rightly spotted a clear foul that Keown thought was a dive. Keown immediately pulled up the ref and when being clearly contradicted in the replay only barely and begruidgingly accepted it saying (again wrongly) that "yer man went down easily though" when he was actually tripped up.

RTÉ made the same mistake.

The difference was made though when it cuts back to studio.

I throughly enjoyed the match last night (bar the result) and I was gutted for Portugal. They were excellent and their game plan was fantastic.

Coentrao and Moutinho were excellent.
I would have taken Nani off with 15 to go (or even switched Christy over to the right every so often to mix it up a bit) as he wasn't being as effective and I think that with the addition of Varela earlier on Portugal could have won it. By the time he came on the rest of the team were knackered.

[Stuttgart88]

Nice post. I was very entertained by it also, and felt the BBC gave little or no awareness of how well Portugal did in doing what we are repeatedly told cannot be done, they shut Spain down, shut the game down for large parts. I found it fascinating. Indo had a good point this morning, saying that Hansen and the RTE trio have made a career out of criticising bad defending and once we good defending they complain about no goals. You can't win!

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/euro-2012/other-news/euro-2012-tv-watch-i-blame-alan-hansen-for-the-centre-back-cosy-consensus-3152719.html

[Stuttgart88]

BBC were incredibly negative about the game in the parts I watched over there. Gary Lineker was slating it on Twitter too. I thought it was an entertaining game, OK there were few chances but tactically it was fascinating. Portugal pressed all over the pitch and had the technical ability to hold on to possession themselves when they won the ball, some of the tackling from Moutinho et al in midfield was brilliant at times and while, overall it resulted in the teams nullifying each other Portugal, arguably, created the more clear cut chances in the 90 minutes and pressed Spain into more mistakes than anyone has done in a long time.

I found it interesting watching how Portugal set out to stop the Spanish. It seemed to me that they were well disciplined without the ball, taking up lines across the pitch, but over and above that they also always had one guy breaking the line to put pressure on the guy in possession. If he didn't make the tackle he went back in to his line and let the next guy along do the pressing as Spain moved it sideways.

The Portuguese also anticipated the next move well, something you need footballing intelligence to do.

We overly rely on just keeping our lines and we're too easy to get through. Even Slovakia got between our lines easily by playing simple one-twos in Dublin.

Can anyone else try and articulate what it was Portugal did that made it effective? How would you describe what to do to your players if you were the coach?

PS: Strachan wasn't fully sure of the Portuguese coach's name on the ITV panel last night. He had to get confirmation on air that it was Bento. Good research Gordon.

[jbyrne]

I found it interesting watching how Portugal set out to stop the Spanish. It seemed to me that they were well disciplined without the ball, taking up lines across the pitch, but over and above that they also always had one guy breaking the line to put pressure on the guy in possession. If he didn't make the tackle he went back in to his line and let the next guy along do the pressing as Spain moved it sideways.

The Portuguese also anticipated the next move well, something you need footballing intelligence to do.

We overly rely on just keeping our lines and we're too easy to get through. Even Slovakia got between our lines easily by playing simple one-twos in Dublin.

Can anyone else try and articulate what it was Portugal did that made it effective?

the RTE panel pointed out that portugal left one of the 3 spain midfield alone and just marked 2 of them. this meant that they couldnt act well as a unit and the isolated unmarked player had to move away from the usual passing through the middle of midfield. I am sure the panel were more detailed in their analysis but thats what i took from it.

[ArdeeBhoy]

No, that game was dull. Like Trap's football, with a lot more skill. But essentially dull.

Unless Spain play with strikers, hope the Deutsch come out on top in the next 2 games. And do it with flair.

[Stuttgart88]

Here's a pretty extreme negative view on last night's game

http://euro2012.irishexaminer.com/analysis/fabregas-gives-spain-edge-on-ugly-night-198999.html

[tricky_colour]

The first penalty missed last night is not at odds with those statistics.
Those stats go up to 2006.
The missed first penalties from last night would be part another batch of statistics, which may or may not read different to the stats I posted :)

A cricket aficionado (and I am not one) would tell you that a penalty shoot out is not cricket. A cricket commentator would be baffled trying to make head or tail out of what transpires at the end of a drawn semi final. The batting order in a game of cricket is based on certain principles which do not necessarily apply to a penalty shoot out.

Offhand I don't know if there is any particular outstanding approach a team uses towards penalty shoot outs. I certainly have no definite opinions, just an interest. I only suggested a reason as to why Ronaldo went for the 5th one. i don't know why he did, but I doubt if it was that he picked the 5th straw :)
Does a team generally put out their established top penalty taker first, in a penalty shoot out?


Of course you are assuming that the people who decide the batting order in cricket know what they are talking out.


I think you will frequently find in like that the people who decide such thing know feck all about feck all and are simply their because of who they know.

[CraftyToePoke]

Of course you are assuming that the people who decide the batting order in cricket know what they are talking out.


It think you will frequently find in like that the people who decide such thing know feck all about feck all and are simply their
because of who they know.

tricky, it grows darker still for you I see, do you have some tales of misfortune from your time wicketing perhaps? Unburden yourself man.

[tricky_colour]

It's not quite as simple as that. You have specialist opening batsmen who are good at playing themselves in, steadying the ship and building a platform for the rest of the team. They're not necessarily regarded as the best batsmen in the side. Sometimes tail-enders are promoted up the order so as to protect the wicket of a higher order batsman overnight if a wicket has been taken late in the day.


Depends on how you define a good batsman, these are the players considered least likely to miss, ie get themselves out.

There is some difference in cricket though because the ball and the conditions change.
The open batsmen generally face the fastest bowling.
If you don't put your best men in here, well you might be 8 wickets down for about 30 runs.

Likewise promoting tail enders up the order might seem like an good idea to protect a better
batsman, but it does not look so clever when the are bowled out and the higher order batsman
has to bat that evening anyway.

[tricky_colour]

I found it interesting watching how Portugal set out to stop the Spanish. It seemed to me that they were well disciplined without the ball, taking up lines across the pitch, but over and above that they also always had one guy breaking the line to put pressure on the guy in possession. If he didn't make the tackle he went back in to his line and let the next guy along do the pressing as Spain moved it sideways.

The Portuguese also anticipated the next move well, something you need footballing intelligence to do.

We overly rely on just keeping our lines and we're too easy to get through. Even Slovakia got between our lines easily by playing simple one-twos in Dublin.

Can anyone else try and articulate what it was Portugal did that made it effective? How would you describe what to do to your players if you were the coach?

PS: Strachan wasn't fully sure of the Portuguese coach's name on the ITV panel last night. He had to get confirmation on air that it was Bento. Good research Gordon.

To me it looked like they marked up to cut out passes, I noticed they did not directly mark the wide men, we didn't either
but the difference is they got close enough to their wide men to make a pass to them dangerous, we didn't we left them
plenty of room.

I think someone else said they only marked 2 of their central three, but it may be more the case they marked
such that midfield passing was difficult.
But ultimately if you have better players you will do better whatever system you use.

[geysir]

Of course you are assuming that the people who decide the batting order in cricket know what they are talking out.


I think you will frequently find in like that the people who decide such thing know feck all about feck all and are simply their because of who they know.

The "thread count whoring" cold turkey has kicked in with a bite.
It's going a bit rough for you Tricky? Just another 6 days to go, will you survive? will we survive?

[tricky_colour]

The "thread count whoring" cold turkey has kicked in with a bite.
It's going a bit rough for you Tricky? Just another 6 days to go, will you survive? will we survive?

Well I have survived so far.

I have an account on the YBIG forum now anyway so if you are missing me you will find me and (some of) my threads
over there, see if you can spot me ;)

[tricky_colour]

So Italy V Germany, Germany are strong favourites but historically Germany do badly against Italy W0 L3 D4
However I am still struggling to make a case for Italy after drawing with England, however they should have won that
match, so maybe that is the case, they will get a bit of luck an nick it?

Gonna watch the first 10 minutes before deciding on whether to have a small flutter on them though.

[tricky_colour]

Actually I put a small bet on before I started on Italy at 4.5 (7/2)

[tricky_colour]

Be interesting to see if Germany do any better than us!!! :rofl:

[tricky_colour]

My new forum name is Bally O Telly by the way!!

Seems a good choice now!!

[tricky_colour]

Ah we are as bad a Germany.;)

[John83]

So, after all of the hysteria about our performance, it seems we didn't achieve anything in a group containing the two form teams in Europe.

[tricky_colour]

Shame Germany got one back we can't say we are as bad as Germany now, however Italy could have had a couple more.
We may not be as bad as some think.

[theworm2345]

So, after all of the hysteria about our performance, it seems we didn't achieve anything in a group containing the two form teams in Europe.


Shame Germany got one back we can't say we are as bad as Germany now, however Italy could have had a couple more.
We may not be as bad as some think.
So the two finalists came from our group just like they did in '88. Unlike in '88, however, we failed to really compete in any match and were pretty much disgracefully awful for probably 240/270 minutes of play.

[John83]

So the two finalists came from our group just like they did in '88. Unlike in '88, however, we failed to really compete in any match and were pretty much disgracefully awful for probably 240/270 minutes of play.
I don't think it's fair to compare this team to the one from 88, when the finals were much smaller, and so just by qualifying Ireland proved itself a much better side than the current team; of course we could compete - just like any of the quarter-finalists this year could compete.

[tricky_colour]

Well it's still better to look rubbish against the finalists than teams which went out in the quarter finals, every team goes through a bad spell where it plays bad and gets a bit of bad luck, OK we may not be world beaters but then again we may not be quite as bad as some think.

[Metrostars]

We're easily better the 4th best team in the tournament considering Croatia might have made the semis had they made it out of the group as they were easily better than the losing quarter-finalists. Tongue in check of course :p

If we were drawn in Group A or D, we still might not have made it out of the group but probably would have gotten a few points.

[geysir]

I don't think it's fair to compare this team to the one from 88, when the finals were much smaller, and so just by qualifying Ireland proved itself a much better side than the current team; of course we could compete - just like any of the quarter-finalists this year could compete.
I think the 1/4 finals were lopsided, the top 4 are in the clear. I'd put Croatia in 5th place, ahead of any of the losing 1/4 finalists.

[Stuttgart88]

...or even strung a few passes together.

Funnily enough, I think Italy was our best showing.

[Noelys Guitar]

So lets forget about Russia who we got a point off in qualifying who came in third in a group topped by Greece and the Czechs . The facts remain unfortunately that we got no points. Conceeded 9 goals and scored one. Not good enough.

[Noelys Guitar]

...or even strung a few passes together.

Funnily enough, I think Italy was our best showing.

It was Doyles best game. He made a couple of superb tackles on Pirlo in that game. Something the Germans and English failed to do.

[geysir]

No matter what way you look at our group, there's no place to hide from our deficiencies

[Stuttgart88]

For the first time in ages football is at the forefront of eveyone's thoughts in Ireland. Even if you fully buy into the view that there was simply nothing more that could have been done it still represents an ideal time to review things - even if the conclusion is only to confirm that view.

I agree with Geysir - despite the quality of the opposition we made things harder for ourselves than we needed to. Adressing these deficiencies might even make us more competitive in WC14 qualifying. Trap version 2 possibly / hopefully. Still hard to beat but with more cohesion, less standing off the ball and more putting pressure on the ball and adapting a shape that helps our midfielders.

And hopefully any review will look at possible deficiencies in the way we nurture footballers and how the game is structured in the country.

[Stuttgart88]

So lets forget about Russia who we got a point off in qualifying who came in third in a group topped by Greece and the Czechs A bit unfair that. Russia were a good side that could have got 7 or 9 points in that group. Greece were blessed in that game against Russia. Russia carved them open on occasion and missed. Greece got a goal straight from a botched Russian throw in. Stuff happens in football.

But I do agree we deserve criticism for our showing. It wasn't good enough. Some here (including me) were thinking we might beat Italy though. That was fanciful in hindsight.

[Stuttgart88]

How bad was the German defending for both goals? Hummel was beaten ridiculously easily by Cassano for goal 1 and that high line / through ball sucker punch was pretty basic stuff for number 2.

[tricky_colour]

So lets forget about Russia who we got a point off in qualifying who came in third in a group topped by Greece and the Czechs . The facts remain unfortunately that we got no points. Conceeded 9 goals and scored one. Not good enough.

If you spin a coin 100 times you will see 6 heads in a row.
That might lead you to believe the coin is doubled headed but such things are expect to happen purely based on luck.
Try it if you don't believe me.

[Noelys Guitar]

A bit unfair that. Russia were a good side that could have got 7 or 9 points in that group. Greece were blessed in that game against Russia. Russia carved them open on occasion and missed. Greece got a goal straight from a botched Russian throw in. Stuff happens in football.

But I do agree we deserve criticism for our showing. It wasn't good enough. Some here (including me) were thinking we might beat Italy though. That was fanciful in hindsight.

Got to disagree. Samaras was man of the match and the Greeks robbed of a blatant peno. The star/stars of this tournament so far have been Pirlo and even more so Prandelli. His selections, tactics and substitutions have been spot on.

[tricky_colour]

How bad was the German defending for both goals? Hummel was beaten ridiculously easily by Cassano for goal 1 and that high line / through ball sucker punch was pretty basic stuff for number 2.


Wardy would never have been beaten like that.

[theworm2345]

But I do agree we deserve criticism for our showing. It wasn't good enough. Some here (including me) were thinking we might beat Italy though. That was fanciful in hindsight.
There is no silver lining, no sugar coating. Regardless of who we played we were atrocious, ****-poor, just plain bad.

[seanfhear]

If Pirlo was Irish would Trapatoni play him.;)

Could Pirlo do the job that Trap would demand in his 442;)

Okay Pirlo is getting all the plaudits but he is very abely assisted by the other 3 midfielders.

[brine3]

Croatia were probably the third best team at the Euros.

They had Spain and Italy well under control and nearly got the better of them. Spain only scored in the 88th minute when Croatia had to go looking for a goal. Because 5 points wasn't enough to get through.

[brine3]

If Pirlo was Irish would Trapatoni play him.;)

Could Pirlo do the job that Trap would demand in his 442;)

Okay Pirlo is getting all the plaudits but he is very abely assisted by the other 3 midfielders.

Well no, Trap would never play the way Prandelli is playing.

And in the 2006 semi-final against Germany Trap would have held out for the penalties. Lippi made 3 attacking substitutions to finish off the tired German defence in extra time and Italy scored in the 119th minute. That man Pirlo was instrumental.

[Closed Account 2]

Maybe the fact that Spain and Italy are in the final puts a little gloss back on our results, but as others have said it doesnt hide very poor performances. For me our worst game in the last four years was Spain, people will say that they are World Champions and play such great football, but we were hopeless that night. Also in my opinion, but I'm sure very few on here will agree, Spain are not this invincible force that the likes of Sid Lowe and Graham Shunter claim them to be. We could maybe have held them to a draw or at the very least only lost by a single goal. In the cold light of day they've scored half of their goals in the this tournament against us in that one match. Italy generally restricted them to few chances, Croatia did the same and were actually the better team for large parts of that match in Gdansk, the Portuguese showed how they could be stifled. If you look at the Spanish record in competitive games they havent really taken teams apart by 4 goals like that very often. Paraguay, Chile, Switzerland, Lithuania, Scotland all these teams have lost by a single goal yet through a series of catastophic errors we put ourselves on a par with Licthenstein.

[Stuttgart88]

I read in one paper that the writer thought that Spain v Italy in round 1 was a borefest. I thought it was a cracker, the highest overall standard of football played in any game so far.

[CraftyToePoke]

I read in one paper that the writer thought that Spain v Italy in round 1 was a borefest. I thought it was a cracker, the highest overall standard of football played in any game so far.

Yeah, it was a great game, maybe people are just so used to the E.P.L. style stuff they have no time for, or don't even recognize it when teams serve up the football equivalent of opera instead of roller coaster.

[geysir]

Some people prefer soap opera entertainment and would fall asleep during Citizen Kane but you wouldn't regard them seriously as a film critic.

[Noelys Guitar]

The Spain v Italy match was a great game. Overall this has been a very good Euro's. Lots of very good matches. As other posters have said I have found it miles more enjoyable than the Champions league.

[BonnieShels]

I read in one paper that the writer thought that Spain v Italy in round 1 was a borefest. I thought it was a cracker, the highest overall standard of football played in any game so far.

It was a cracker. This tournament has shown up the inability of a lot of the Irish and British press to get over their bias towards the EPL and CL.