Euro 2012 General Discussion

[geysir]

The IT had a piece from the news conference where Pirlo said he decided to do that penalty after Hart had made his move, that Hart had been a bit puffed up.

[Stuttgart88]

I also read that Prandelli questioned him about it. Pirlo said it served another purpose too - to pump up his teammates. Quality thinking, if true.

Edit - this is what Pirlo said:

The outrageously cheeky penalty that Pirlo chipped past Joe Hart with his team trailing in the shoot-out is known in Italian as a cucchiaio (spoon) and apparently the midfielder mastered the art as a teenager at Brescia's academy.

Pirlo did not try to dismiss the significance of the way in which he scored: "It was really relevant to the match and our win. This changed the course of the game. In my opinion, Hart seemed to be very confident in himself and, scoring against him this way, it did seem to be a psychological blow. I needed to do something to beat him. Penalties are a very personal thing.

"When you have to shoot a penalty you have to be confident in yourself. I didn't say anything special to my team-mates. We are united as a group."

Yesterday, a member of the Italian media suggested that perhaps he was a bit mad and that might be some kind of explanation for why he took such a risky penalty. "Look, it was not folly. It was not madness," Pirlo said. "I felt like doing that thing at that moment in time. I don't think I was mad when I hit this penalty. I just had this moment of inspiration before I took it."

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/euro-2012/other-news/majestic-method-in-pirlos-madness-3151560.html

[ArdeeBhoy]

Yeah, the 'psychological blow' thing was significant.

Good on Pirlo.

Am expecting Ingerland to win their next shoot-out v.us in Turkey, 2020...

[BonnieShels]

Pique having a shocker but Portugal need to score cos I can see them tiring with this harrying.

[Stuttgart88]

Yep, but equally I can see Portugal getting one major chance. On balance though I can see Spain wearing them out.

It's not just harrying, it's a bit cleverer than that. Portugal are taking up clever positions without the ball.

BBC commentary driving me mad.

[BonnieShels]

I don't have the requisite word for what Portugal are doing.
Harrying will do.

Spain coming into it more. Bento needs to make a change.

[Charlie Darwin]

Pique having a shocker but Portugal need to score cos I can see them tiring with this harrying.
They need a Paolo Verde of their own.

[tricky_colour]

probaly gonna give this the kiss of death but I was gonna put some money on spain but then

I looked at the first 10 minutes and opted for the draw.

expect a goal right after I post!!!

[tricky_colour]

Portugal do a decent job marking up, not chasing the ball around like we did
but but keeping their players marked so it is not easy to pass, you can see the Portuguese waiting for the passes.
We wait until the pas has been made and chase ball.

[ArdeeBhoy]

The dullest game ever?

[tricky_colour]

Hope so then I can claim on the draw :)

[tricky_colour]

goal chance ha ha chance missed :)

[ArdeeBhoy]

Hmm..

[tricky_colour]

That Ronaldo is a great lad

[tricky_colour]

I am annoyed cos I backed Italy and they drew. 60 seconds and I collect.

[tricky_colour]

could well be a draw germany italy.

[tricky_colour]

i didn't find it too boring, mind you I was out at the shops for some of it, it is a bit like a game of chess
this passing game, you have to think a move ahead, but we only look at the next move.

Dam we have enough 30 mins of this carp lol.

[SkStu]

lol indeed.

[tricky_colour]

looks like only spain can win it before penos

[tricky_colour]

i put some money on spain to qualify in the extra time, seemed a decent bet but it went to peno's still won though

[BonnieShels]

Gutted

[ArdeeBhoy]

Why? Portugal played like Spain without the skill.

And if Italy got to the Final...

[geysir]

I enjoyed that game. Tough on Portugal, but what an effort they put in with 9 outfield players. Coentrao and Pepe were outstanding. Spain were the only team left standing in ET.
Radical game plan leaving their strikers on the bench. Maybe we could try that sometime.

Somehow the dink down the middle in the penalty shoot out was a bit of an anti climax, after Pirlo it will be seen as a form of plagiarism.

[Stuttgart88]

Context is everything. Knowing what we know about the relative ability of the two teams, how they play and what was at stake, I found it intriguing. But if that was a cold February league game with just the points at stake I'd have been screaming at both teams to do more.

[BonnieShels]

Portugal played like Spain? .tf?

I'm gutted cos yet again I tipped the losing team.

[Junior]

Whats the deal with Ronnie waiting for Pen number 5? Bizarre stuff.

[geysir]

Portugal played like Spain? .tf?

I'm gutted cos yet again I tipped the losing team.

Is there someone who doesn't like your losing tips, out to gut you?

[geysir]

Whats the deal with Ronnie waiting for Pen number 5? Bizarre stuff.

The 5th is the pressure one, why should Ronaldo lower himself to take one of the easier penalties?

[ArdeeBhoy]

No, the first 3 are the pressure ones...

[ArdeeBhoy]

Portugal played like Spain? .tf?

I'm gutted cos yet again I tipped the losing team.


So who are you backing for the Final, just so we know...

[BonnieShels]

So who are you backing for the Final, just so we know...

I'm afraid to say.

[Stuttgart88]

No, the first 3 are the pressure ones...Not if the scores are level after the first 3!

I think 1, 4 and 5 are the ones where you want your really best takers to step up.

1 to put a marker down

2 and 3 - well they're unlikely to be life or death affairs, you've still got a bail out option or another sucker to share the blame with.

4 - if it's got to 4 it's more than likely it's all to play for. It might be virtually sudden death at this stage.

5 - if it's got this far it's crucial.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Well yeah, agree with the theory.

But it doesn't usually work out like that...

[tricky_colour]

The trick is to be the first side to miss a penalty, I think the records show that side goes through.
So I would put the best player second, that is the real pressure one.

I woudl have put Ronaldo first because he was blasting them over top all night.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Tricky is right on this one I reckon.
:rolleyes:

The no.of shoot-outs at the top level where the side missing first progresses is unreal. The only time I recall that not happening was this year's Chumps Lge. Final...

[geysir]

Just to let some facts get in the way of debate

From the Journal of Sports Sciences, success rate at Finals competition


First kick 86.6%
Second kick 81.7%
Third kick 79.3%
Fourth kick 72.5%
Fifth kick 80%
‘Sudden death’ kicks 64.3%
These results highlight the increasing pressure as the competition progresses and may also highlight the ‘best player should go first’ fallacy. The idea of ‘getting off to a good start’ by putting the best penalty taker first appears wrong as there is least pressure on this kick.


Of course this research falls flat if it was found that teams do put their best penalty taker first :)

[tetsujin1979]

Ronaldo took the last one in 2006 as well

[Charlie Darwin]

Just to let some facts get in the way of debate

From the Journal of Sports Sciences, success rate at Finals competition


First kick 86.6%
Second kick 81.7%
Third kick 79.3%
Fourth kick 72.5%
Fifth kick 80%
‘Sudden death’ kicks 64.3%
These results highlight the increasing pressure as the competition progresses and may also highlight the ‘best player should go first’ fallacy. The idea of ‘getting off to a good start’ by putting the best penalty taker first appears wrong as there is least pressure on this kick.


Of course this research falls flat if it was found that teams do put their best penalty taker first :)


Haha was just going to say that, you've pointed out exactly why it falls flat.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Just to clarify, meant the first miss of the shoot-out, not necessarily the first kick.

And how up-to-date are those stats? And what 'Finals'?

So 6years out-of-date then.

[geysir]

Jordet, G., Hartman, E., Visscher, C. and Lemmink, K. A. P. M. (2006) Kicks from the penalty mark in soccer: The roles of stress, skill, and fatigue for kick outcomes. Journal of Sports Sciences, 1-9,
'penalty shoot-outs in the World Cup (WC), European Championships (EC) and the Copa America (CA).'
'The percentage success rate in the World Cup is 71.2% compared to 82.7% (CA) and 84.6% (EC), possibly reflecting the greater importance and consequent pressure of the world stage. The success rate of each penalty kick changes throughout the competition:'

[tricky_colour]

Just to let some facts get in the way of debate

From the Journal of Sports Sciences, success rate at Finals competition


First kick 86.6%
Second kick 81.7%
Third kick 79.3%
Fourth kick 72.5%
Fifth kick 80%
‘Sudden death’ kicks 64.3%
These results highlight the increasing pressure as the competition progresses and may also highlight the ‘best player should go first’ fallacy. The idea of ‘getting off to a good start’ by putting the best penalty taker first appears wrong as there is least pressure on this kick.




Of course this research falls flat if it was found that teams do put their best penalty taker first :)



Indeed and I expect teams do put their best player first. Then next best second etc....
There is also some good reason for the last player to one of the best if not second best perhaps but I am not sure if is actually a good idea. From a mathematical point of view it is always best to play the best player available.

Indeed I think we witness the flaw in putting one of your best players last and that is that you may well be out of the competition before his turn comes round.

[osarusan]

BBC going on and on about putting your best penalty takers first whereas Bruno alves took one before Ronaldo, but not mentioning that Pique and Ramos both took theirs before Fabregas.

I'm sure that if Ronaldo had scored the 4th and Alves missed the 5th they would have complained about Portugal not keeping a stronger player for the last penalty.

[tricky_colour]

Tricky is right on this one I reckon.
:rolleyes:

The no.of shoot-outs at the top level where the side missing first progresses is unreal. The only time I recall that not happening was this year's Chumps Lge. Final...


Well I was aware of it seemed to be the case against Italy but not that it might be wider spread than that (if indeed it is).

[bennocelt]

That's 3 games now in a row that were borefests. Spain bailed out their manager last night. Crazy tactics and bad substitutions. Maybe the international game isnt all that. Watching Spain play is certainly no Ac Milan or Ajax.

[Junior]

I am not a cricket fan at all but, Im sure I've heard/read in the past that the batting order is always 'best first' and so on. Get runs on the board like. It was a gamble leaving Ronaldo to be 5th pen and Portugal possibly being being out by then. Anyone think there was an element of taking the 5th penalty being likely to be the 'glory' penalty that might have come in to it? Probably not but just thought I'd throw that in to the mix.

Geysir - The first pen of each team was missed last night, so at odds with those stats!


From the BBC

"We had this plan," the 43-year-old coach admitted after the semi-final.

"If it would have been 4-4 and he would have taken the last penalty, we would be talking in a different way."

Real Madrid star Ronaldo, 27, endured a frustrating evening, seeing a number of free-kicks sail harmlessly away from Spanish keeper Iker Casillas's goal.

He then watched in dismay as first Joao Moutinho's penalty was saved, then Bruno Alves hit the bar with his effort. Spain substitute Cesc Fabregas slotted home the winner to send Bento's men home and Spain into the final.

Alves's penalty miss was all the more acute as the defender had appeared set to take the preceding spot kick before midfielder Nani rushed to intercept his team-mate.

Its an interesting one with regards Bruno Alves. My initial reaction was 'what are they doing' this is going to backfire, Nani will miss now with all the confusion. Then I thought, it was brave of them to pull Alves out if they were concerned he didnt look up to the task and then Nani went on to score. However, I was wrong on both counts, Alves simply couldnt count and then went on to miss anyway.

I would have liked to see Portugal go through.

[boovidge]

I am not a cricket fan at all but, Im sure I've heard/read in the past that the batting order is always 'best first' and so on. Get runs on the board like.

It's not quite as simple as that. You have specialist opening batsmen who are good at playing themselves in, steadying the ship and building a platform for the rest of the team. They're not necessarily regarded as the best batsmen in the side. Sometimes tail-enders are promoted up the order so as to protect the wicket of a higher order batsman overnight if a wicket has been taken late in the day.

[Junior]

Whoooshhhhh!!!!

[geysir]

I am not a cricket fan at all but, Im sure I've heard/read in the past that the batting order is always 'best first' and so on. Get runs on the board like. It was a gamble leaving Ronaldo to be 5th pen and Portugal possibly being being out by then. Anyone think there was an element of taking the 5th penalty being likely to be the 'glory' penalty that might have come in to it? Probably not but just thought I'd throw that in to the mix.

Geysir - The first pen of each team was missed last night, so at odds with those stats!

The first penalty missed last night is not at odds with those statistics.
Those stats go up to 2006.
The missed first penalties from last night would be part another batch of statistics, which may or may not read different to the stats I posted :)

A cricket aficionado (and I am not one) would tell you that a penalty shoot out is not cricket. A cricket commentator would be baffled trying to make head or tail out of what transpires at the end of a drawn semi final. The batting order in a game of cricket is based on certain principles which do not necessarily apply to a penalty shoot out.

Offhand I don't know if there is any particular outstanding approach a team uses towards penalty shoot outs. I certainly have no definite opinions, just an interest. I only suggested a reason as to why Ronaldo went for the 5th one. i don't know why he did, but I doubt if it was that he picked the 5th straw :)
Does a team generally put out their established top penalty taker first, in a penalty shoot out?

[geysir]

BBC going on and on about putting your best penalty takers first whereas Bruno alves took one before Ronaldo, but not mentioning that Piquet and Ramos both took theirs before Fabregas.

I'm sure that if Ronaldo had scored the 4th and Alves missed the 5th they would have complained about Portugal not keeping a stronger player for the last penalty.

I watched the game on BBC, I got the definite impression that they wanted Portugal to win and until ET they were begrudging the Spanish efforts. Maybe it was just their approach to this game in general, that put a dent in my mood.

[passinginterest]

BBC were incredibly negative about the game in the parts I watched over there. Gary Lineker was slating it on Twitter too. I thought it was an entertaining game, OK there were few chances but tactically it was fascinating. Portugal pressed all over the pitch and had the technical ability to hold on to possession themselves when they won the ball, some of the tackling from Moutinho et al in midfield was brilliant at times and while, overall it resulted in the teams nullifying each other Portugal, arguably, created the more clear cut chances in the 90 minutes and pressed Spain into more mistakes than anyone has done in a long time.