Euro 2012 General Discussion

[Stuttgart88]

Jeez Germany didnt look good at all - maybe this tournament can be won by any team?Yep, that's what I'm thinking now.

[legendz]

So much can be read into the first games. I suppose with the wait, they are built up to the nth degree. It'll be interesting to see how things pan out in the second series, possibly the moving series to use a golf term.

[BonnieShels]

Yep, that's what I'm thinking now.

Just not England, Greece, Spain or Portugal.

I presuming you're going Polska today Stutts?

[geysir]

Germany have had a perfect qualification campaign and trounced the Netherlands back in november. They had a respectable performance but not dominant against Portugal and were left hanging on desperately at the end for the win. Hummel had an outstanding game at the back. Germany are now playing against good teams who stand back. Instead of Portugal going toe to toe with them, Germany have to break them down as well as protect from the threat of the counter attack and they try to do this playing good football as distinct from their old physical approach.
I think their midfield has become more impressive than WC2010, even with Schweinsteiger carrying an injury. That midfield are equally good in both defensive role and offensive role.

The Dutch are now under the serious pressure and Germany will want to avoid a pressure games against the Danes.

[Stuttgart88]

Just not England, Greece, Spain or Portugal.

I presuming you're going Polska today Stutts?

But still Ireland? :)

I dunno, though the waitress who serves us breakfast yesterday has painted an indelibile positive image of the country in my brain. A couple of interesting if not hugely glamourous games tonight.

Polska Bialo Czerwony.

[Crosby87]

There are a bunch of articles from reputable papers and sites floating around today about how the International game is relatively awful, compared to club level, and is basically just really bad football being played by tired players just for the sake of fans rooting for one country or another..... thoughts?

I realize the press just focuses on certain things at times, and England only had one shot on net yesterday, etc... but is International football generally really awful and plodding as some in the press seem resigned to thinking? Maybe it is just taking this tournament a round to get going.

[Stuttgart88]

No is my answer.

And anyway, what more do you need to make a tournament interesting than fancied teams like Holland losing, spain playing italy, Russia beting the Czechs 4-1, Poland and Greece playing a thriller. I really enjoyed SWE v UKR last night.

Context is everything in appreciating sport. If you don't get the context then go off and get your instant gratification elsewhere. (Irish footy fans seem to love the context of a major finals but aren't that pushed about the context of playing Armenia to get there).

I think the standard was quite high in some games so far, despite what highly paid pundits will tell you.

International football is different to club football in the satellite TV age. Club football is largely now about which clubs camn attract the richest benefactor but in international football your national system is what is really put to the test. This is far more interesting to me.

Spending unsustainably for ostentatious gain is what caused Ireland's economic crisis. The same might happen soon to some of football's more ostentatious clubs or to those that have to spend to keep up - not that too many care about that, unfortunately.

[Stuttgart88]

OK, so it seems to be theme in the last year or so that well set-up teams are able to nullify the more fluent passing teams, and are well capable of nicking results.

So, is this the end of the brief dominance of tika taka and what will be tweaked by the better passing teams to get back on top of the spiolers?

I just don't like the way Spain, Barcelona, France etc. play without a proper number 9, someone to attack the ball in the box and who can hold it up. OK, Bayern had one but he had a shocker against Chelsea.

Some attempt to address this question here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2012/jun/12/the-question-position-possession-tiki-taka) in today's Guardian website. Jon Wilson is the guy who wrote Inverting the Pyramid I think. In the comments Barry Glendenning contrasts John Giles and Arrigo Sacchi's views on football, while Wilson responds that a Giles v Sacchi live debate would be a dream.

[Zizou]

Come on Greece today.. :)

[bennocelt]

Club football (LOI) for the head and international for the heart. I think the tournament is fine so far, some good games, thought last nights game was a cracker.

[geysir]

An assist there for Samaras.

[Stuttgart88]

Club football (LOI) for the head and international for the heart. I think the tournament is fine so far, some good games, thought last nights game was a cracker.In that context, what the papers that Crosser was referring to are effectively saying is that football is only worth watching if you follow a big team in a big 4 league. International football gives fans in countries like Ireland a chance to be at the glamorous party on occasion rather than reading about it in Hello! magazine. Long may it thrive.

[Yard of Pace]

Poland giving a good example of how to put it right up to the more fancied team. Cracking game.

[Stuttgart88]

Super game, great context, great atmosphere, great commitment, great delivery for the first goal (iffy finish) and super goal from Poland. ITV pundits enjoyed it but were harsh on the overall standard which I thought was technically good. Some central midfielders on that pitch can carry the ball at pace better than our wingers and full backs. Some great hard tackling too and none of the dangerous lungy cr@p the EPL holds so dear. I love watching eastern Europeans play football.

[mark12345]

Interesting Article

Giovanni Trapattoni's Tactics Have Taken Ireland as Far as They Can

Watching Ireland lose 3-1 to Croatia on Sunday was really quite depressing. Not merely because of the defeat, but because of the manner of the defeat.

Ireland looked like a prehistoric side, totally bereft of ideas and guile, with only one speed and one game plan. The effort was there and along with some bad luck, but the thing that struck me was how terrible Ireland were with the ball. At times, it was embarrassing.

Giovanni Trapattoni's tactics have gotten Ireland to the group stage and he has done a fantastic job to qualify, but that's not enough.

First and foremost, I am a football fan, and, I want to see some ambition in my team. I want to see the team try and pass the ball.

Ireland, under Trap, refuse to do this. He doesn't want the team to get the ball down and play. Against Croatia, it was embarrassing to see how limited Ireland were on the ball. Time and time again, they passed it back to their fullbacks who aimlessly hoofed the ball long up the pitch and straight back to the Croats.

The lack of movement of the Irish team was telling. No one showed for the ball in midfield, as if the idea of showing for a pass was pointless, as they knew it would be lumped up the field. It was brutal to watch.

Trapattoni's selection of Green, Whelan and Andrews—whilst leaving out the likes of McCarthy, Coleman, Houlihan—sums up his ambition or lack thereof. He doesn't want players who can play. Trap just wants workhorses in midfield, and then hopes our front players will nick a goal.

What does this say to the kids in Ireland who want to become professional footballers?

Ireland should be encouraging passing football; promoting skill and technique, and not fearing the ball. The midfield should have technical players in it who can control the tempo of the game.




The Football Association of Ireland need to make a complete overhaul of the Irish setup, and they need to get all the Irish club sides and school youth teams involved. Ireland should take a look at FC Barcelona's La Masia, and try to get Irish clubs to incorporate their coaching techniques into their youth system.

Ireland should pick a formation (personally, I'd go for the 4-3-3), and get all the youth teams to agree to use this. We need to ban long balls from the youth system and stick to passing it short at all times (including the goalkeeper).

We shouldn't worry about the scores in youth football, and instead focus on promoting passing and technique. We should also incorporate "El Rondo" ("the round" possession technique) in all youth setups.

No Irish players should be afraid of getting the ball, as was so evident against Croatia. Ireland need to be brave on the ball. I do not believe for a second that Ireland cannot produce technical players. We can and we have. The problem is that we don't encourage them.

Ireland don't like players to take risks or to keep the ball. They panic and want them to "get it up the field," and a lot of youth coaches are to blame for this.

Look at Athletic Bilbao as a example. They are like a mini-international side who will only sign Basque players and, therefore, have a small pool of players to pick from. Look at how technical they all are and how well they play.

Why is this? It's simply down to their youth setup and their philosophy on the game.

Ireland need to change their philosophy on the game as a nation, and it has to start from the bottom up. They are miles behind most teams in terms of their style of play, and its time to catch up.

The FAI need to send people to Spain and Holland and look at the setup there. Learn from the masters, apply it and stick with it as a long-term plan.

Trapattoni's tactics have taken Ireland to the Euros and it is a great achievement, but I fear for Ireland against Italy and especially Spain.

Ireland looked utterly clueless against Croatia. Imagine what the Spaniards could do to them.

Hopefully, the FAI learn from this tournament and Ireland can finally move on from this long-ball football for good.

[Charlie Darwin]

Everything suggested there is basically what the FAI has been doing for the past 2-3 years, with the national team the only exceptional.

[pineapple stu]

An intent to handle the ball is not enough on its own with out the contact :)

There are plenty of grey areas, like a player leaving his hand outstretched.
That's not a grey area; that's handball.

[geysir]

That's not a grey area; that's handball.
In the context of that discussion and in the context of that phrase i used, I think it is pretty clear that I was referring to a penalty being awarded for handball.
That there are plenty of grey areas whether a handball in the penalty area is considered a penalty or not.

[DannyInvincible]

Trapattoni's selection of Green, Whelan and Andrews—whilst leaving out the likes of McCarthy, Coleman, Houlihan—sums up his ambition or lack thereof. He doesn't want players who can play. Trap just wants workhorses in midfield, and then hopes our front players will nick a goal.

Bit unfair to accuse Trap of having left McCarthy out.

[geysir]

It's incorrect to say Trap left McCarthy out, but would Trap have used him as anything other than a crisis back up option?

[CraftyToePoke]

It's incorrect to say Trap left McCarthy out, but would Trap have used him as anything other than a crisis back up option?

I don't believe he would, the fact we may not even see Gibson bears this out surely.

[Stuttgart88]

Permutations (I think):

Regardless of any other group results:
Ireland out unless we get 4 points. End of.

But other results come into play:
If we beat Spain and draw with Italy, we can only go out if Italy beats Croatia, but even then we would still go through if Spain beats Croatia in round 3.

If we draw with Spain and beat Italy we go through in 7 of the other 9 combinations of results and in every outcome if Italy beats Croatia tomorrow.

If we draw with Spain and beat Italy, we go can only go out if Spain beats Croatia and Croatia gets something from Italy.

Put another way:
If we get 4 points, regardless of how we get them, only 2 out of 9 other remaining outcomes see us go out, although which 2 are dependent on how we get our 4 points.

If we assume we are more likely to get 4 points by beating Italy, we would prefer Italy to beat Croatia before we play Spain.

[mark12345]

Originally Posted by mark12345

Trapattoni's selection of Green, Whelan and Andrews—whilst leaving out the likes of McCarthy, Coleman, Houlihan—sums up his ambition or lack thereof. He doesn't want players who can play. Trap just wants workhorses in midfield, and then hopes our front players will nick a goal.

Wrongly attributed to me. I didn't write this.

[geysir]

That was a perfect game from the Germans, take it easy, pounce when the opportunity required and always in control.

[sullanefc]

Originally Posted by mark12345

Trapattoni's selection of Green, Whelan and Andrews—whilst leaving out the likes of McCarthy, Coleman, Houlihan—sums up his ambition or lack thereof. He doesn't want players who can play. Trap just wants workhorses in midfield, and then hopes our front players will nick a goal.

Wrongly attributed to me. I didn't write this.
You should probably reference your source in your post to avoid confusion.

[Stuttgart88]

That was a perfect game from the Germans, take it easy, pounce when the opportunity required and always in control.

Crafty and I were exchanging texts throughout today's games. What a tournament. Great games, great context, the works.

How comfortable were Germany after they conceded VP's goal? 15 mins left and I'm not sure the Netherlands got a meaningful touch in Germany's defensive third for the rest of the game. Unreal.

[seanfhear]

The Germans owned the Dutch in that game (bar Van Persie's goal).

We've had that in Europe before mind.

[pineapple stu]

In the context of that discussion and in the context of that phrase i used, I think it is pretty clear that I was referring to a penalty being awarded for handball.
That there are plenty of grey areas whether a handball in the penalty area is considered a penalty or not.
Handball is defined in the laws as deliberate ball to hand, or deliberately leaving the hand outstretched (which was the phrase you gave). Both are frees and, if in the penalty area, penalties.

[geysir]

Handball is defined in the laws as deliberate ball to hand, or deliberately leaving the hand outstretched (which was the phrase you gave). Both are frees and, if in the penalty area, penalties.
I didn't say "deliberately leaving the hand outstretched", I wrote "leaving his hand outstretched". A player can go in to cover an opponent with the arms naturally stretched out 25cm from his body, the ball hits his hand and it is not deemed a penalty, a deliberate contact.
'the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an infringement'

There is no primary requirement for defenders to hold their hand behind their backs

[Stuttgart88]

5 reasons why Euro 2012 is so good (http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/euro-2012/other-news/5-reasons-why-euro-2012-is-so-good-3139941.html)

[geysir]

Well done to Samaras :D and mates for deservedly knocking out Russia. Just after I commented on the quality refereeing, there comes an awful decision to deny Greece a valid penalty, maybe those boys had cried wolf too often but a stonewall penalty nevertheless, Karagounis gets booked and misses the next game.

[Stuttgart88]

I didn't see that as I was flicking between the two games on occasion. I can only think of one penno all tournament - Greece's miss v Poland. Has there been another? Goals in every game, comebacks and leads changing hands, good football, relatively honest play, surprises, great crowds. ****ing great tournament, one of the best in my lifetime.

[thischarmingman]

Terrific tournament. No scoreless draws so far btw.

Also Russia only lasted 48 hours longer than us. ;)

[elroy]

The 2010 wc was poor in quality and entertainment generally but the euros have been great. For me, the euros and the wc offer more entertainment and are more enjoyable than the CL will ever be. If u want plenty of lacklustre meaningless games, the CL group stage is your man.

[irishultra]

Too right, the worst world cup is better than the Champions League, the CL is overall I don't find that entertaining. International Football has a more magical feeling about it than club football.

[bennocelt]

I stuck with the Russia game, good that I did as it was a cracking game. Greece put in the hard yards and Russia simply were not good enough, in fact they were just expecting to turn up and thump Greece. Dick Advocat was fairly relaxed upto the Grrek goal, fuuny to see him get really nervous in the second half knowing maybe it wont be a cake walk after all. Brilliant.
I have to say that young Greek defender, their no 5, Papa something is some player, can see why he is playing in Germany.

[Murfinator]

Would have to agree that the general standard has been very good. I can't recall a game that I didn't enjoy watching (aside from the obvious 2)

I've always been in favour of more teams in the Euros, its a bit short and doesn't cater to teams who aren't frequently qualifying for world cups anyway but I wonder what the impact on the quality will be. Euro 2016 will unfortunately have a hard act to follow from this.

[the bear]

Terrific tournament. No scoreless draws so far btw.

Also Russia only lasted 48 hours longer than us. ;)

and looking ahead sweden only lasted 24 more

[tricky_colour]

Too right, the worst world cup is better than the Champions League, the CL is overall I don't find that entertaining. International Football has a more magical feeling about it than club football.

They should call the Champions League the Mercenaries League.

[geysir]

You had to see those Greek celebrations at the end to understand what it meant to them and that was just to get through the group in 2nd place.
After all these years, their captain Karagounis is still some driving force in their midfield.

[Stuttgart88]

Portugal miles better than the Dutch tonight but still 1-1 and Dutch just missed a sitter. I might switch over to Germany, but this is an interesting night.

[backstothewall]

Hopefully the Portuguese can get a winner here. It would be nice to be able to say we equalled the Dutch

[bennocelt]

Wow the Dutch got no points. Watched the Germany game, must say Bastian Shwesiteiger (how do you spell that name - thats a great quiz question) is my player of the tournament so far

[BonnieShels]

Schweinsteiger- It means "pig/swine mounter"

So far the 3 teams I've supported on any given night this week have gone out. Fierce tempted to support Italy tomorrow.

[bennocelt]

Schweinsteiger- It means "pig/swine mounter"

.

Honest now, did you cut and paste that?:D

[BonnieShels]

Honest now, did you cut and paste that?:D

Nope. It's been a fact about Seb that I've been telling the world since I found out from a German friend of mine.

[Charlie Darwin]

Haha, I thought it meant "pig-stepper" which is bad enough, but that's even more unfortunate.

I can never keep a straight face when I hear of somebody with the surname Hore.

[tricky_colour]

steiger seems to mean 'boss' in German.

It could be like a pigherd (as in shepard), or maybe pig-head :)

[Stuttgart88]

Lads, please tell me I'm deluded but I'm starting to worry about England. Despite their flaws, and some of these were badly exposed against Sweden, I still think the have enough quality in their XI to cause trouble. Cole is a super left-back, Glen Johnson's pace, Wellbeck (quality finish against Sweden), Gerrard's delivery and shot, Carroll's sheer donkeyness from crosses and set pieces...

I dunno, I think they have attributes that can hurt other teams. Most of the other teams here have some weakness too. Germany and France aren't clinical enough for my liking, for example.

Please let Shevchenko be fit!

[geysir]

And add Rooney to that mix, you could in be in for a lovely time surfing on the wave of England football euphoria in this tournament, Stutts.