A Couple of Questions Re Dundalk

[dong]

Sounds like a doomsday scenario in Dundalk.
Sad to see.

[A face]

What the feic happened though? I thought it was all going well, being managed well and revenue coming in from other streams other than matchday. Can Dundalk fans name three things that are happening thats caused this scenario?

[bullit]

My own guess is that the big money being made via the bars at OP and also in the highly successful youth development centre(ydc) is getting siphoned off by Gerry Matthews to help him pay for the planning costs that are due to Dundalk town Council/LCC.Matthews promised all along that ALL money made by these bars & money from the ydc would go towards the general running of the club.This clearly hasn't happened.

I think that Matthews has engineered a crisis situation at the club that will invoke an interested party(DFC Trust,Fastfix,combo of both) to take over the club along with the debts it has incurred and therefore releasing him from said debts.

End game is not far off imho.

[Nesta99]

What the feic happened though? I thought it was all going well, being managed well and revenue coming in from other streams other than matchday. Can Dundalk fans name three things that are happening thats caused this scenario?

Building of the YDC and the associated costs.
Owner being involed in construction and associated costs.
Manager ****ing off un/happy fans.

Now on the three things that went wrong! Where to start............

[White Horse]

What the feic happened though? I thought it was all going well, being managed well and revenue coming in from other streams other than matchday. Can Dundalk fans name three things that are happening thats caused this scenario?

I think that there are two.

1. The Board fell apart after the owner decided to sell the club but failied to agree a deal with buyers. Businesses need good management.
2. Attendances have halved since first year up, no club can absorb that loss of revenue without problems.

[Spudulika]

It's a combination of everything.

Devious owner and his lackeys.
Naive supporters trust.
Insulted and demoralised potential buyers.

Add in lies, spin, deception, stupidity and the mother of all 3 card tricks. When the normal club supporters are insulted to such a degree that they feel complete disconnect with the club, then everything falls apart. I am grateful for the owner's initial efforts to stabilise the club, he did put some of his own money in (regardless of what he wanted on the side) and gave alot of his time. However when results on the field didn't match the usual whingers and moaners (every club has them) in pubs and clubs around the town's expectations, the owner just speeds up his exit strategy. It's sad and the club could go bang over the summer.

[passerrby]

I saw he said two clubs already unable to pay wages. Are Monaghan the other I wonder?

Nope , we are up to date at the moment I'm told , don't know how long that will continue

[jinxy lilywhite]

My opinion is this:
1. No coherent plans for the direction of the club since 2009/2010 and the club almost operating in a limbo state from season to season 40%
2. GM came out last year and said he wanted out. i deal with these people everyday and when your owner wants out then you get him out as fast as possible. 20%
2. Building a YDC but with absolutely no idea on how to run one and to properly utilise the asset. it is now in actual fact a bingo hall with a couple of artifical pitches 15%
3. going on a rampage of cutting costs to the extent that it is now at the stage that for each cost being cut the benefit being offered is far greater than the cut. 15%
4. Sacking john Gill- hence believing every single little promise that blacky connors told him. 5%
5. unfair dismissal cases with dave rogers and lisa kelly all cost the club dear funds, also there is the dragging the club through the dirt during t/o negotiations, lotto money as **** sticks, his other business's falling apart and using the club to prop them up



to be fair to him though, he did do good for the club and i applaud him for that. Up until 2010 we possibly were the best run team in the country on and off the pitch. But as i said when the owner of a club, business or anything else losses their heart in what they are doing then they should get out and fast.

[Spudulika]

That's the fairest and most decent summary of the situation JL, thanks!

[bullit]

2. Building a YDC but with absolutely no idea on how to run one and to properly utilise the asset. it is now in actual fact a bingo hall with a couple of artifical pitches 15%


Good post jlw but you are wrong on this point.The facilities provided in that "bingo hall" are top notch.Tell me what way you would have built it?What way would you run it? What would you change? Or are you just running the it down for the sake of it? It seems to me that Matthews is hanging on to it for a reason,the reason being that it is a cash cow.

[Spudulika]

Good post jlw but you are wrong on this point.The facilities provided in that "bingo hall" are top notch.Tell me what way you would have built it?What way would you run it? What would you change? Or are you just running the it down for the sake of it? It seems to me that Matthews is hanging on to it for a reason,the reason being that it is a cash cow.

Bullit, I think he's saying it for the reason that bingo halls and artificial pitches make money, hence the big man and his buddies will fight tooth and nail for it. They value it highly and the price on it is way above what you'd expect for anything in these straitened times, but what else can be expected.

[jinxy lilywhite]

Good post jlw but you are wrong on this point.The facilities provided in that "bingo hall" are top notch.Tell me what way you would have built it?What way would you run it? What would you change? Or are you just running the it down for the sake of it? It seems to me that Matthews is hanging on to it for a reason,the reason being that it is a cash cow.

I am not running it down. it is good to have an asset that hopefully in future will generate revenue stream. It is my opinion that during the time focus was just to build it without any though or proper planning on how to utilise it and to run it properly.
it was built purely for youth development it would be next to impossible for the centre to run itself. It would also be very speculative to think that dundalk fc could build a conveyor belt of talent that could be sold accross the water to pay for the centre.
to counter that you need functions and functions do be held there. But there is not as many functions being held there that would hoped to be. Dundalk and ireland are different places now than it was 3 or 4 years ago.

What would I do? tbh I dont know, hire an events manager or get someone in who intimately knows how to run a youth centre and to use it to feed the 1st team. but it will be a very long time imo before this centre becomes a cash cow. the revenues generated from it will take a very long time to pay back. Centres like these you build and you hope in 20 yrs that it will pay back but we all know the reason why it is a perceived cash cow is because the costs have been landed on DFC and the company now running the centre have no costs.

[Guinney]

I think the YDC or Oriel Active as it's now called is good, nice bar, a gym for the players and we can hold events in it - like the European badminton tournament, Take Me Out, Strictly Come dancing, large Poker tournaments, snooker expeditions, and probably other things that I can't think of. But on a football side of things there is only 3 indoor pitches in it, not a whole lot in my opinion. Even though it has only recently closed JJB in town had 11 pitches, all that could be converting into larger pitches, plus the 12th pitch that was turned into a kiddies play area. And still it closed down despite being busy every night of the week (not sure of the exact reasons). There is tonnes of artificial pitches now in town, so on the whole 3 5-A-side pitches for me isn't a whole lot for the time, money and effort put into the YDC.

[marinobohs]

I miss Ezeikials pontificating about how utterly fantastically run Dundalk are and how every other team needed to do things the Dundalk way.... Lol spoofer.

That said, I wish Dundalk all the best.

yea, interesting that the poster so quick to pontificate on other clubs......................:rolleyes:

Wish Dundalk all the best and hope they can come through this. Appears from the outside to be behind the scenes politics and that is never a good sign. Times are difficult enough for LOI clubs without the added complication of personal 'agendas'.

[Roo69]

From bad to worse up in Dundalk, missed another wages payment to the players this week according to a player.

[Lim till i die]

:bulgy:

With the break coming up, it's not unreasonable to assume the players can forget about their wages for the next four or five weeks too.

[Roo69]

:bulgy:

With the break coming up, it's not unreasonable to assume the players can forget about their wages for the next four or five weeks too.

I would have taken that as a given unless they get a whack load of cash in from else where. Seeing as Dundalk have broke players contracts can they look for a new club?

[The Lilywhites]

Who gets paid on a Tuesday?!

The players will be paid this week, confirmed by the club. Last week's wages wont.

[forza]

Who gets paid on a Tuesday?!

The players will be paid this week, confirmed by the club. Last week's wages wont.

So what you are saying is that last weeks wages will be paid a week late, and they won't be paid this week's wages on time?

[The Lilywhites]

Take it whatever way you want. They'll be a week behind. Club not sure if they will be able to pay wages over the break.

http://blackandwhitetown.tumblr.com/post/24014188482/dundalk-fc-owner-gerry-matthews-spoke-at-length

[Roo69]

Who gets paid on a Tuesday?!

The players will be paid this week, confirmed by the club. Last week's wages wont.

An ex-Bray player who is now with Dundalk posted on his Facebook page that he wasn't paid his wages again this week, i thought it strange myself on a Tuesday but that's what he said.

To me that reads that they have already missed more than one payment. Really hope Dundalk can turn things around, we were in a terrible situation at the start of the year and managed to turn things around, hopefully you can too.

[bullit]

I am not running it down. it is good to have an asset that hopefully in future will generate revenue stream. It is my opinion that during the time focus was just to build it without any though or proper planning on how to utilise it and to run it properly.
it was built purely for youth development it would be next to impossible for the centre to run itself. It would also be very speculative to think that dundalk fc could build a conveyor belt of talent that could be sold accross the water to pay for the centre.
to counter that you need functions and functions do be held there. But there is not as many functions being held there that would hoped to be. Dundalk and ireland are different places now than it was 3 or 4 years ago.

What would I do? tbh I dont know, hire an events manager or get someone in who intimately knows how to run a youth centre and to use it to feed the 1st team. but it will be a very long time imo before this centre becomes a cash cow. the revenues generated from it will take a very long time to pay back. Centres like these you build and you hope in 20 yrs that it will pay back but we all know the reason why it is a perceived cash cow is because the costs have been landed on DFC and the company now running the centre have no costs.

1 ^ An events manager has been in place since Jan/Feb

2 ^ GMatthews reckons that the YDC will return a profit for this year.

Point No.2 is the deal breaking point though.

GM was involved with other investors in the building of the YDC and i would say that any takeover by an outside party will have to include some assurances that those investors wil have to get a fairly HIGH percentage of their money back.

It is a desperatley sad state of affairs atm :angry2::angry2:

[bullit]

I think the YDC or Oriel Active as it's now called is good, nice bar, a gym for the players and we can hold events in it - like the European badminton tournament, Take Me Out, Strictly Come dancing, large Poker tournaments, snooker expeditions, and probably other things that I can't think of. But on a football side of things there is only 3 indoor pitches in it, not a whole lot in my opinion. Even though it has only recently closed JJB in town had 11 pitches, all that could be converting into larger pitches, plus the 12th pitch that was turned into a kiddies play area. And still it closed down despite being busy every night of the week (not sure of the exact reasons). There is tonnes of artificial pitches now in town, so on the whole 3 5-A-side pitches for me isn't a whole lot for the time, money and effort put into the YDC.

Guinney, JJB as a company failed.The Dundalk arm of the biz was prob profitable or near enough break-even but the take-over company prob just wnted the good meat on the steak if you know what i mean. The pitche's alongside the gym were well placed to make cash but i think having the sports shop included was the wrong way to go.For a town the size of Dundalk they should have stuck that into the(main) retail park(yeah,just around the corner:)) or into the town centre.For anybody that didnt play football or go to the gym it was hardly the go to spot for sports gear ?

[JC_GUFC]

I saw he said two clubs already unable to pay wages. Are Monaghan the other I wonder?

I'd say it's more likely the FAI's dream team. They didn't pay players last year but vowed to pay wages this year, the results haven't exactly improved and crowds certainly haven't despite being given free access to one of the best stadiums in the league.

[Dodge]

I'd say it's more likely the FAI's dream team. They didn't pay players last year but vowed to pay wages this year, the results haven't exactly improved and crowds certainly haven't despite being given free access to one of the best stadiums in the league.

Best stadiums in the league you say...

[JC_GUFC]

Best stadiums in the league you say...

Turner's Cross, Tallaght and struggling after that...

[Dodge]

FAI's dream team you say...

[Lim till i die]

I'm confused, why aren't Shamrock paying their players??

[marinobohs]

I'm confused, why aren't Shamrock paying their players??

No direct bus between SDCC stadium and the bank ? :o

[passerrby]

I'm confused, why aren't Shamrock paying their players??

Simple they budgeted getting us in the cup imagine there faces when the real rovers drew the sleeping giants

[Poor Student]

I'd say it's more likely the FAI's dream team. They didn't pay players last year but vowed to pay wages this year, the results haven't exactly improved and crowds certainly haven't despite being given free access to one of the best stadiums in the league.

We often complain about lack of media coverage in the LOI but I have to say it results in one of my favourite things about it, the vague rumour and conjecture. With the complete lack of media interest and investigative journalism the above statement could be entirely fictional or true, either being entirely plausible!

[Dodge]

We often complain about lack of media coverage in the LOI but I have to say it results in one of my favourite things about it, the vague rumour and conjecture. With the complete lack of media interest and investigative journalism the above statement could be entirely fictional or true, either being entirely plausible!

The best part of it is that the 'criteria' could be applied to 3/4 teams. Thats what makes truly great innuendo

[Guinney]

Guinney, JJB as a company failed.The Dundalk arm of the biz was prob profitable or near enough break-even but the take-over company prob just wnted the good meat on the steak if you know what i mean. The pitche's alongside the gym were well placed to make cash but i think having the sports shop included was the wrong way to go.For a town the size of Dundalk they should have stuck that into the(main) retail park(yeah,just around the corner:)) or into the town centre.For anybody that didnt play football or go to the gym it was hardly the go to spot for sports gear ?

Yeah agree with all that you say, but the issue I am more concerned with is from all the hassle, cost and time put into Oriel Active/YDC and we only have 3 pitches. Well there is also a bar (a really nice one) and a small gym for the players. Events can be held there aswell which is great and there is a large underground carpark. But the focus on the whole building is really the pitches and we only have three of them, which is not a large amount really when you compared it to JJB which had 12.

To be honest this is really only a side issue, the survival of the club is more important at the moment, but if we fitted more pitches in there maybe this would have helped with the cashflow problem that slight bit more

[Dodge]

Dundalk trust looking at alternatives...

http://www.dundalkdemocrat.ie/sport/soccer/dfc-trust-saddened-by-events-at-oriel-park-1-3904519

[Spudulika]

One of the best suggestions, which speaks volumes about reality vs LOI, came by stealth from GM's buddies and then from the horses mouth itself - to pay the wages of a couple of good players so as not to lose them for nothing! Can anyone, in their right mind, even contemplate a situation where the club owner invites supporters to pay the wages of one or two players so as not to lose them for nothing? It plumbs the depths of corruption and foul play. It slaps the head off players who turn up week in week out and are deemed unfit to be paid. The trust and GM have put the club in a mess of their own desire.

[Mr A]

You're saying the trust wanted this?

And they wouldn't be the first club to keep their most saleable players up to date in the hope of selling. If they can get a fee the other lads may see more money than they would otherwise.

[Dillonman]

Dundalk trust looking at alternatives...

http://www.dundalkdemocrat.ie/sport/soccer/dfc-trust-saddened-by-events-at-oriel-park-1-3904519

Its the same alternative, they are just looking at wider ideas at how they could sustain taking over the running of the club should it be required as an emergency sooner rather than later. A few other whispers and unconfirmed whispers at that have been that the Trust could be talking to the previous bidders who where turned down at Xmas, with a joint bid a possibility, ie Fastfix and a few local businessmen.

[Spudulika]

You're saying the trust wanted this?

And they wouldn't be the first club to keep their most saleable players up to date in the hope of selling. If they can get a fee the other lads may see more money than they would otherwise.

That the owner is on the way out, yes. That they should have called him out on it sooner and not been conned by his 3 card trick, yes. That they want to club to die, it's impossible to say but I would guess no. I compared (unfairly in a way) GM to TNB, but I would always add that GM put money into the club and is leaving the facilities better than he found them.

As for messing about with wages for one player over another, it's a disgrace, it has happened in clubs true, but it's wrong. It is the death knell for the club if this carry on starts. How much could they expect to get (for one particular player returning from injury) that would justify it? No club is even going to offer a half decent amount.

Dillonman, I hope that the 2 lads from Fastfix can get in and turn it around, but after the way they were treated, along with everyone else, they're not going to just let GM sit beyond in the shed soaking money from the club. He either goes or continues taking the club back to where he found it.

[bullit]

Dillonman, I hope that the 2 lads from Fastfix can get in and turn it around, but after the way they were treated, along with everyone else, they're not going to just let GM sit beyond in the shed soaking money from the club. He either goes or continues taking the club back to where he found it.

Spud and Dillonman,it would be great if someone came in right now to help the club out but i dont think those Fastfix guys are as clean as they appear.Be careful what you wish for :-/

[Spudulika]

Bullit, while I'm not 100% in agreement with you, a part of me feels that nobody in this is as angelic as they make out (so basically I do agree :-) ). Has anyone ever figured out who "invested" in the YDC - apart from the sports grant - and what are the legal terms of the repayments on it?

[Nesta99]

The trust and GM have put the club in a mess of their own desire.

What role does the Trust have in the club's predicament? Considering that the trust don't have any say on how the club is run currently.
You really have no notion of what is going on in the background!

[Spudulika]

What role does the Trust have in the club's predicament? Considering that the trust don't have any say on how the club is run currently.
You really have no notion of what is going on in the background!

Nesta, again I'll go back to what I said in another thread on the same subject on this one too. The club, with the motivation of keeping the club going, went along with the 3 card trick being played by GM and prolonged the misery. It was obvious that the club would never leave his hands last October, or earlier, and that the longer the Trust kept giving a hand out the worse it became.

And I do know what's going on in the background - do you?

[Dillonman]

Spud and Dillonman,it would be great if someone came in right now to help the club out but i dont think those Fastfix guys are as clean as they appear.Be careful what you wish for :-/

I never said they where clean. There's a reason why Matthews didn't take the money and run apart from keeping the YDC. He said it himself a while back. They are currently sponsoring the refs and have continued ads at all matches at the Aviva Stadium. Do they now have the funds to go for a club? Surely business isn't that great that would allow them to take over a debt ridden club and whipe it clean. Its obvious something isnt right with that bid. The only way to be completely sure about any of these bids is for the bidders to relase an agenda and to release their due diligence tests on the club itself. But that will never happen.

[bullit]

Dundalk getting close to the edge :angry2:


This is an update from the board of Dundalk FC in regards to the severity of the financial position we currently find ourselves in.
As the public are aware 5 weeks have now passed since we announced that we were unable to pay the players for one week of their wages at Dundalk FC. We did stress back at this time that Dundalk FC was in severe financial difficulties.
It was also made clear at this time that anybody expressing an interest in regards to taking over Dundalk FC or who could be in a position to make a substantial contribution to help the club should contact the board directly. Today the club will meet with representatives of the DFC Trust for an exploratory discussion on a potential takeover. Apart from the Trust, we are very disappointed that no one, either directly or indirectly, has contacted us in this regard particularly when we are in a position when we need them most.
People must be made aware that should the club not be in a position to pay another week’s wages to the players, resulting in a total of two weeks wages in arrears, that these players have the right to seek employment with other clubs. This undoubtedly may trigger our top players to leave voluntarily or other clubs knowing this situation will contact our top players with a view to taking them on with immediate effect. We have clear indications the latter will happen. If any group or individual wants to sponsor any particular player’s salary to the end of the season, this option is available and we can sit down and agree with the group/individual how this can be done.
Since these financial situations have arisen we have initiated a number of fundraising programmes to generate money. Our Honorary Vice President and Supporter Donations programmes and letters have been sent out to over 700 people. To date 19 Supporters have donated €3,450 and the Honorary Vice President have taken in €2,500. The Board wish to acknowledge these receipts and are very appreciative to these people and other people who continue to contribute to the running of the club. However the reality is that if more people do not contribute we will be undoubtedly be fighting a relegation battle, or worse case, go out of existence.
To give an example of how the financial difficulties have arisen we have outlined the following example;
2011 – Season Tickets & Net Gate Receipts after 11 League games = €157K
2012 – Season Tickets & Net Gate Receipts after 11 League games = €87K
This is a difference of €70K year on year and does not include lost Merchandising Sales, Bar Income, Lotto Sales, Match Programmes Sales, and other match night revenue sales which are affected by reduced attendances and people coming to games. It also does not include any Setanta Cup gate receipt money and only compares league games.
This example is only one of a number we could pick from where actual revenues are significantly below budget figures…..match sponsorship, pitch signs, lotto sales, pitch rental, to name a few are amongst others.
In all of these matters we are continuing to work with the FAI in regards to the financial troubles and status of Dundalk FC and we will continue to keep them informed of any and all matters arising.
Again we would appeal to the supporters and people of Dundalk that this is a very serious situation and to contact the board directly if you feel you or a group are in a position to take over the club or make a substantial financial contribution.

[Spudulika]

Dundalk getting close to the edge :angry2:

Is there no end of the lies being thrown out of the club? They are an absolute disgrace. They are in a mess of their own desire (this I will stick to). They had a number of bids on the table last year, including one where the potential buyers told, the day before they arrived, that it wasn't the right time to buy the club. This after weeks of back and forth where the "debts" tripled and the price of the fun factory was way, way above anything that could be expected in the current property market. And any simple questions asked were ignored or previous answers contradicted. Disgraceful behaviour after doing a really decent job at the start.

[bullit]

Is there no end of the lies being thrown out of the club? They are an absolute disgrace. They are in a mess of their own desire (this I will stick to). They had a number of bids on the table last year, including one where the potential buyers told, the day before they arrived, that it wasn't the right time to buy the club. This after weeks of back and forth where the "debts" tripled and the price of the fun factory was way, way above anything that could be expected in the current property market. And any simple questions asked were ignored or previous answers contradicted. Disgraceful behaviour after doing a really decent job at the start.

People wanted numbers spud,the numbers are there.
If you can help,that would be good,if not,save the rhetoric,the tune is old.

[Spudulika]

bullitt, the numbers there were changing with each mail and call, and then when it was pee or get off the pot time for the club they spun and yarn then backed off - the day before the people were to arrive. Brinksmanship is not a game to play. I've tried to believe that those in charge had honourable intentions but was totally wrong. Sorry, when you put your money and effort where your mouth is and have it thrown back you just don't waste more time. It's not rhetoric when you've made the effort over and over. They're in the mess they want to be in, now just see what happens with the GM fun factory.

[thomas72]

This would be a complete disaster if dundalk went bust league of Ireland football right now is in ruins a eight team first division its a farce. THere are prob 4 teams in the whole country that are financialy sound shamrock rovers, sligo, st pats, LimeRick WTF are the FAI doing about it they must be the most inept organization on the planet JD looks like a guy who is constantly stoned off his head.
THere actually stopping teams from making money to survive E.G not allowing Limerick fc to play the greatest footballing team of all time at a 26,000 sell out thomond park would of made the club 250,000k and again this summer stopped a top tournament going ahead at thomond park with Celtic, man city etc etc because it could interfere with the AivA tournament which were a month apart. THings like that these cowboys are doing preventing teams making money and they wonder then why are clubs folding idiots. RAnt over.

[Longfordian]

Depends what you mean by financially sound. For example, we're not flush with cash but most of our long term debt has been cleared and we're breaking even or making a small profit the last few years. I'm sure there's more clubs in similar situations, Waterford, Shels perhaps (though they've the issue of their ground), Athlone even?

[thomas72]

Depends what you mean by financially sound. For example, we're not flush with cash but most of our long term debt has been cleared and we're breaking even or making a small profit the last few years. I'm sure there's more clubs in similar situations, Waterford, Shels perhaps (though they've the issue of their ground), Athlone even?

FAir enough the way things are in league of Ireland football breaking even is good going my real point is the fai denying clubs to make a very healthy profit that could tie them over for a season or two I suppose if you live outside Dublin you don't matter. Could you imagine the faI denying longford town a friendly in a huge stadium against man utd its laughable why would you deny these clubs to play over here.