SPA Players Unhappy

[Charlie Darwin]

Also, is there an official process for pulling out of a tie? At what point can Lviv just get on the bus to the airport? Or is there some time / moment / submission or non-submission of a piece of paperwork which means the point of no return has been crossed?
I think I remember Scotland fulfilling a fixture a few years ago when the home side failed to turn up in protest. Lviv would at least have to be in the stadium at the time of kick-off.

This whole thing is embarrassing. No sympathy for the players.

[Macy]

Surely if the players don't play and the club suffer financially they can issue legal proceedings against the players?
If the PFAI sanction the action, it'd be the union that would be liable as far as I'm aware. Which is why SIPTU et al will only sanction action if correct procedures have been followed, and can be proven to have been followed.

[harleyleeds]

Yes you should pay your players, that is not what is at issue here - the Pats players have been paid, they just want more. Pretty pathetic attempt at an auld dig.

no dig intended you brought galway into it , its not fair a team that is all up for sale and is no good being in the league. You are defunct thats a fact not me wumming you. players the world over get bonuses to give incentitive why is loi so special. people on here whinging about standard then dont want players to get extra to push them. if you choose to work abroad whenever your boss says so for no extra money than you would have at home then thats your choice but (except for the situation in your country where you really have no choice anymore but to be happy with anything) i cant understand why you would. its not part of your reg job.

[Roo69]

IMO, the players should be sanctioned not so much for bringing the game here into disrepute, but for making it an absolute laughing stock of Europe. Totally agree with Mr A suggestion that these guys should be blackballed by every other league clyub, Pats should sack the lot of them and use the players from their U19/A Championship sides

You'll still be relegated though :p

Seriously thought, absolutely everyone involved in this should be ****ing ashamed of themselves for letting it get to this. And we always wonder why the vast majority of people in this country want nothing to do with the LoI... bull**** like this.

[dong]

Easy solution Take the money from Delaney s wages. He wouldn't notice 20K going from his €400,000 salary

Hold on there now a minute!
He still owes us 5 grand as far as I'm aware.

[Charlie Darwin]

If the PFAI sanction the action, it'd be the union that would be liable as far as I'm aware. Which is why SIPTU et al will only sanction action if correct procedures have been followed, and can be proven to have been followed.
I think the PFAI's links to SIPTU are more symbolic than anything. Employees go on strike; self-employed workers like footballers just breach their contracts.

[paul_oshea]

no dig intended you brought galway into it , its not fair a team that is all up for sale and is no good being in the league. You are defunct thats a fact not me wumming you. players the world over get bonuses to give incentitive why is loi so special. people on here whinging about standard then dont want players to get extra to push them. if you choose to work abroad whenever your boss says so for no extra money than you would have at home then thats your choice but (except for the situation in your country where you really have no choice anymore but to be happy with anything) i cant understand why you would. its not part of your reg job.

You have never worked away from your regular place of work then, obviously.

[dong]

The issue here is about whether these players are holding Pats to ransom over money that was never due to them.
Nothing to do with the pros and cons of bonuses. Why are some people on here so retarded?

[Macy]

I think the PFAI's links to SIPTU are more symbolic than anything. Employees go on strike; self-employed workers like footballers just breach their contracts.
Surely they're fixed term contracted employees, not self employed? To be honest I'm not sure how that effects things, probably not much from the workers right to strike side given the way legislation is generally geared in favour of the employer. I hope it's just symbolic regarding SIPTU, as they're embarrassment to the whole Trade Union movement imo.

[prince20]

FAI have now agreed to mediate between players and club in dispute.

[harleyleeds]

You have never worked away from your regular place of work then, obviously.


of course i have paul we get paid for the inconvenience of being away from home.

[Mr Maroon]

FAI have now agreed to mediate between players and club in dispute.

The game is off so!

[dong]

people on here whinging about standard then dont want players to get extra to push them.

This has nothing to do with the Pat's case ffs. The players should have negotiated and agreed their bonus entitlements etc before the season began and not be holding the club to ransom now.

[harleyleeds]

The issue here is about whether these players are holding Pats to ransom over money that was never due to them.
Nothing to do with the pros and cons of bonuses. Why are some people on here so retarded?

i guess everyone cant be as clever as you but having said that if the money paid is not money due then its a bonus

[Longfordian]

Surely they're fixed term contracted employees, not self employed? To be honest I'm not sure how that effects things, probably not much from the workers right to strike side given the way legislation is generally geared in favour of the employer. I hope it's just symbolic regarding SIPTU, as they're embarrassment to the whole Trade Union movement imo.
Yes they're contract workers for PAYE purposes so they'd be treated as such under all other employment regulations.

[born2bwild]

What a shambles. How did it get to this?

[dong]

i guess everyone cant be as clever as you but having said that if the money paid is not money due then its a bonus

You can't anyways.

[SuperSaint91]

Game on According to daniel McDonnell on twitter.Hope he's right. Both club and players are at fault here but The players will not be forgivien

[pineapple stu]

I think I remember Scotland fulfilling a fixture a few years ago when the home side failed to turn up in protest. Lviv would at least have to be in the stadium at the time of kick-off.
Yeah, a game in Estonia when FIFA/UEFA said Estonia's floodlights weren't up to scratch and ordered a kick off change. Scotland had to tog out and the ref had to start the game before abandoning it.

[Duggie]

fcking joke, typical of our league, we almost expect it.

[Straightstory]

Embarrassing situation. Players mostly to blame. But club officials culpable too. Maybe players should have considered pulling out of the next LEAGUE game? Then at least the whole ridiculous farce would have been limited to this country and they wouldn't shame themselves throughout Europe.
I feel a lot of sympathy for Pete Mahon.

[Charlie Darwin]

Embarrassing situation. Players mostly to blame. But club officials culpable too. Maybe players should have considered pulling out of the next LEAGUE game?
Well the point is to force the club to relent to their demands. Not fulfilling a Euro fixture could cost the club 500k+. Not fulfilling a league fixture would cost the club a few grand.

[marinobohs]

Surely they're fixed term contracted employees, not self employed? To be honest I'm not sure how that effects things, probably not much from the workers right to strike side given the way legislation is generally geared in favour of the employer. I hope it's just symbolic regarding SIPTU, as they're embarrassment to the whole Trade Union movement imo.

PFAI are an affiliated organisation of SIPTU (absorbed when MPGWU joined with SIPTU) and presumably acts on foot of SIPTU negotiating licence. As the players are employees (unlike Cork stick fighters a few years back) they would be subject to the same rights/conditions that apply in any employer/employee dispute,which as the issue is not an employment right/contract issue would fall under the Industrial Relations Act 1990.
This Act (IR Act 1990) outlines requirements PRIOR to legal Industrial Action being taken.

[DannyInvincible]

I think I remember Scotland fulfilling a fixture a few years ago when the home side failed to turn up in protest. Lviv would at least have to be in the stadium at the time of kick-off.

That was Scotland's away game to Estonia in qualification for the 1998 World Cup. Scotland originally believed they'd be awarded the three points, but UEFA instructed that the game should be replayed at a later date. More info on that affair here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_team_in_Tallinn

Not sure what impact, if any, that might have on today's events.

[Mario]

Kellegher must be raging at all this ...

He has put in millions since taking over and then the players get stroppy over a few K and the name of the league gets draged throught the mud yet again!

If I was him I'd go all amateur next season and have a UCD type set-up (no offence to UCD) of u21 players playing for nothing!

[DannyInvincible]

Yeah, a game in Estonia when FIFA/UEFA said Estonia's floodlights weren't up to scratch and ordered a kick off change. Scotland had to tog out and the ref had to start the game before abandoning it.

From what I've read of that, would it have made any difference - FIFA convened to order a replay of the fixture at later date in a neutral ground - if Scotland hadn't bothered showing up either? Surely a replay would still have been ordered?

[brendy_éire]

Indications are that St Pat's v Karpaty game will now go ahead this evening - common sense prevailing.


Daniel McDonnell talking on Twitter.
Something sorted out so?

[Ezeikial]

if you choose to work abroad whenever your boss says so for no extra money than you would have at home then thats your choice but (except for the situation in your country where you really have no choice anymore but to be happy with anything) i cant understand why you would. its not part of your reg job.

Sometimes it is hard not to attack the poster for idiotic ramblings.

Part of the "regular job" of a player whose club is in European competition is..eh...to play in Europe.

[BonnieShels]

Couldn't believe it when I heard this earlier.

Love this league. Realistically how much sympathy were the pats players expecting from this? Idiots.

[DannyInvincible]

Here are the UEFA regulations that will apply if Pats fail to fulfil the fixture: http://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Download/Regulations/competitions/Regulations/01/62/69/60/1626960_DOWNLOAD.pdf


VI. Refusal to Play, Cancellation of a Match, Match Abandoned and Similar Cases

Article 10

Refusal to play and similar cases

10.01 If a club refuses to play or is responsible for a match not taking place or not being played in full, the Control and Disciplinary Body declares the match forfeited and/or disqualifies the club concerned in combination with the following fines:


a) prior to the first qualifying round: €10,000
b) prior to the second qualifying round: €10,000
c) prior to the third qualifying round: €10,000
d) prior to the play-offs: €30,000
e) prior to the group stage: €50,000
f) during the group stage: €125,000
g) prior to the round of 32: €150,000
h) prior to the round of 16: €175,000
i) prior to the quarter-finals: €200,000
j) prior to the semi-finals: €250,000
k) prior to the final: €500,000

10.02 Exceptionally, the Control and Disciplinary Body can validate the result as it stood at the moment when the match was abandoned if the match result was to the detriment of the club responsible for the match being abandoned.

10.03 If a club is disqualified or for any reason withdraws from the competition before completion of its matches in the group stage, the results of all of its matches are declared null and void, and its points forfeited.

10.04 In all cases, the Control and Disciplinary Body can take further measures if the circumstances so justify.

10.05 A club which refuses to play or is responsible for a match not taking place or not being played in full loses all rights to payments from UEFA.

10.06 Upon receipt of a reasoned and well-documented request from the club or clubs concerned, the UEFA administration may set an amount of compensation due for financial loss.

Article 11

Match cancelled before departure of the visiting club

11.01 If the home club or the host association finds that a match cannot take place, for example because the field is not fit for play, the home club must notify the visiting club and the referee before their departure from home and the UEFA administration at the same time. In this case, the match must, in principle, be played at another venue and/or on another date as decided by the UEFA administration after consultation with the home club (for the venue) and with both clubs (for the date).

Match cancelled after departure of the visiting club

11.02 If any doubt arises as to the condition of the field of play after the visiting club’s departure from home, the referee decides on the spot whether or not it is fit for play.

11.03 If the referee decides that the match cannot commence, for example because the field is unfit for play, the match must be played either the next day, or on a reserve date or other date set by the UEFA administration. A decision must be taken within two hours of the referee’s decision to cancel the match, in consultation with the two clubs and the associations concerned. In case of dispute, the UEFA administration fixes the date and kick-off time of the match. Its decision is final.

Match abandoned

11.04 If the referee decides to abandon the match, for example because the field is unfit for play, the remaining match time must be played either the next day, or on a reserve date or other date set by the UEFA administration, unless the case is referred to the UEFA Control and Disciplinary Body. The date on which the match will be completed must be decided within two hours of the referee’s decision to abandon the match, in consultation with the two clubs and the associations concerned. In case of dispute, the UEFA administration fixes the date and kick-off time of the match. Its decision is final.

11.05 If the remaining time of the match has to be played the next day, or on a reserve date or other date set by the UEFA administration, the following principles apply:


a) the match sheet may contain any of the eligible players who were on lists A and B when the match was abandoned, irrespective of whether they were actually on the match sheet for the abandoned match, with the exception of players substituted or sent off during the abandoned match as well as players suspended for the abandoned match. The players who were in play at the time the match was abandoned may not be included on the match sheet as substitutes when the match is resumed;
b) any sanctions imposed before the match was abandoned remain valid for the remainder of the match;
c) single yellow cards imposed before the match was abandoned are not carried forward to any other matches before the abandoned match is completed;
d) players sent off during the abandoned match cannot be replaced and the number of players in the starting line-up remains as it was when the match was abandoned;
e) players who were suspended following a match played after the abandoned match in question can be included on the match sheet;
f) the teams can make only the number of substitutions to which they were still entitled when the match was abandoned.

Expenses

11.06 When the circumstances required the home club to notify the visiting club and the referee before their departure from home of a match not being able to be played and if the home club failed to do so, it is responsible for the travel, board and lodging expenses of the visiting club and the referee team.

11.07 In all other cases, each club bears its own expenses, including additional expenses resulting from the match having to be (re)played later than initially scheduled. However, if a match cannot take place for reasons beyond control and the visiting club returns home, the travel, board and lodging expenses of the visiting club, as well as the relevant hosting costs, are borne by the two
clubs in equal parts.

[Straightstory]

Would they have considered pulling out if they were leading/still level after the first leg?

[Real ale Madrid]

I wonder if the Pats players DO get what they want, play now, and get beaten - will the players reimburse the supporters who travelled over there for thier time and expenses etc ?

Seems about as logical as what they are looking for now.

[Straightstory]

Looks like game is now going ahead. Fancy Pats to win 3-0. Ideal preparation.

[DaveyCakes]

Even if it does go ahead, you'd have to imagine that the atmosphere will be pretty poisonous. Whatprice Karpaty to win 5-0 and Pats to finish with 9 men?

[Charlie Darwin]

Stuart Gilhooly: "Deal done. Match goes ahead. Club finally shows common sense and respect at eleventh hour. Pity it had to come to this."

http://twitter.com/#!/DSBAPresident/

[harleyleeds]

Sometimes it is hard not to attack the poster for idiotic ramblings.

Part of the "regular job" of a player whose club is in European competition is..eh...to play in Europe.

doesnt seem to hard for you zek but I stand by my assertions that players in european games should be rewarded extra (bonus) for them. You want to do well in europe but expect players to play these games as if they were a local one instead of offering incentitives and bonuses . very small minded indeed. if you make extra money for your boss you get a bonus thats worldwide ,except for ireland where if you screw the people you get the bonus . ie your pols and bankers but these players who get mickey mouse money you begrudge a bonus even though they are earning you extra. why should they bother trying to qualify next year if it only means extra games for no extra pay.

[bluewhitearmy]

Stuart Gilhooly: "Deal done. Match goes ahead. Club finally shows common sense and respect at eleventh hour. Pity it had to come to this."

http://twitter.com/#!/DSBAPresident/ (http://twitter.com/#%21/DSBAPresident/)

That gilhooly seems like a complete tool.

[Charlie Darwin]

doesnt seem to hard for you zek but I stand by my assertions that players in european games should be rewarded extra (bonus) for them. You want to do well in europe but expect players to play these games as if they were a local one instead of offering incentitives and bonuses . very small minded indeed. if you make extra money for your boss you get a bonus thats worldwide ,except for ireland where if you screw the people you get the bonus . ie your pols and bankers but these players who get mickey mouse money you begrudge a bonus even though they are earning you extra. why should they bother trying to qualify next year if it only means extra games for no extra pay.
They were getting extra pay. Their issue was over how much.

[DannyInvincible]

Stuart Gilhooly: "Deal done. Match goes ahead. Club finally shows common sense and respect at eleventh hour. Pity it had to come to this."

http://twitter.com/#!/DSBAPresident/

Has the club given in to the players' demands then?

[Ceirtlis]

Stuart Gilhooly: "Deal done. Match goes ahead. Club finally shows common sense and respect at eleventh hour. Pity it had to come to this."

http://twitter.com/#!/DSBAPresident/

Seriously what kind of **** is this fella. Deluded legal profession *******.

Pats players demands are like shop workers going into the boss looking for a bonus because extra money has come through the tills. Presumably they would be willing to give the club a bonus if their underperformance was leading to lower crowds and prize money.

[paul_oshea]

Ive gotten emails from mates(normally get them :D) who wouldn't ever mentione LOI to me really, as they wouldn't have any interest yet teh same tone is coming from all of them "cant believe what pats are at". For those who don't read forums/whatever they all seem to believe pats are the problem and not the players...anyway back to the old of the only publicity the league gets is bad publicity.

[Straightstory]

That gilhooly seems like a complete tool.
That's the main thing we've learnt from this sorry saga. (Comedy name; strange Lord Mayor-like chain around the neck; 'Liverpool fanatic'.)

[sullanefc]

I hope the Pats fans give the players dogs of abuse tonight and don't cheer any goals scored.

[born2bwild]

Seriously what kind of **** is this fella. Deluded legal profession *******.

Pats players demands are like shop workers going into the boss looking for a bonus because extra money has come through the tills. Presumably they would be willing to give the club a bonus if their underperformance was leading to lower crowds and prize money.
More money is coming through the 'tills' - who should get it? The board? The players should have first shout since they're the ones making it happen on the pitch. Just because workers don't ask for extra doesn't mean they shouldn't.

[born2bwild]

I hope the Pats fans give the players dogs of abuse tonight and don't cheer any goals scored.
Even Karpaty's?

[Ezeikial]

doesnt seem to hard for you zek but I stand by my assertions that players in european games should be rewarded extra (bonus) for them. You want to do well in europe but expect players to play these games as if they were a local one instead of offering incentitives and bonuses . very small minded indeed. if you make extra money for your boss you get a bonus thats worldwide ,except for ireland where if you screw the people you get the bonus . ie your pols and bankers but these players who get mickey mouse money you begrudge a bonus even though they are earning you extra. why should they bother trying to qualify next year if it only means extra games for no extra pay.

Who is begrudging the players a bonus?

According to media reports St Pats agreed a package with them for the first round and made an offer for subsequent rounds.

After the behaviour of the players and PFAI I NOW begrudge them a single red cent and hope they end up as LoI outcasts.

This is the real point:


The issue here is about whether these players are holding Pats to ransom over money that was never due to them.
Nothing to do with the pros and cons of bonuses. Why are some people on here so retarded?

[sullanefc]

Even Karpaty's?
Obviously they wouldn't cheer for the other team, but the silent treatment for any SPA goals would be apt. Prob won't happen but it will be an interesting atmosphere.

[Real ale Madrid]

More money is coming through the 'tills' - who should get it? The board? The players should have first shout since they're the ones making it happen on the pitch. Just because workers don't ask for extra doesn't mean they shouldn't.

I can think of a thousand ways Pats would probably put that money to good use. Instead of throwing it away on bonus payments that were never due.

[Mr A]

More money is coming through the 'tills' - who should get it? The board? The players should have first shout since they're the ones making it happen on the pitch. Just because workers don't ask for extra doesn't mean they shouldn't.

WTF?

Players are some of the few people who make money out of the LOI. Boards generally work their arses off and plough their time and money into a club because they love their club. So if I had to decide- I'd go with boards every time. Yes plenty of them have made feck ups down the years but without them there'd be no LOI. And the idea that 'the board' would get the money is ridiculous anyway.. chances are it'll be reinvested straight back into the club.

[harleyleeds]

They were getting extra pay. Their issue was over how much.

in that case appologies as i read they were only getting expenses ,food etc.