SPA Players Unhappy

[marinobohs]

Your dead right WB. A lot of sheep here just going with the flow.

From what I can make out, players have lost earnings due to taking time off work for euro trips. Playing football part time should not cost you money. All clubs (not just SPA) should have agreements in place to cover this scenario. And Pats should cough up here.

As for the cancelled holidays issue, I think the fault lies with the FAI. The mid-season break should not come during the European dates, it should be earlier. But the Super Cup took priority I'm afraid.

Sorry folks, but while I have sympathy for the players it is not that simple - SPA are not responsible for the draw (which - travel wise - was horrendous) so why are they more accountable than FAI (who nominated SPA as Irish representative). Secondly, there are two seperate issues here (1) legitimate out of pocket expenses incurred (which, surely noboby begrudges the players) and (2) a "new" bonus which was not part of their T&Cs. Very different issue in my view and a very different debate.

The fact is that there is no "standard" bonus scheme for european games, perhaps there should be but that should be addressed by the PFAI BEFORE the season begins (if their members want one) not by threatening to strike in the middle of a european tie.
Really, should not have to explain it but the difference between the SPA case and Galway is that GU are not honouring contracts they entered into with players which nobody has claimed is the case with SPA

[A face]

Where is this at now? I thought we'd know by 10.00am ... is it still ongoing?

[marinobohs]

Where is this at now? I thought we'd know by 10.00am ... is it still ongoing?

Talks to continue this morning to try and (hopefully) resolve the matter.

[Dodge]

Not sure about this bit. They have to leave a day earlier to get to Kazakhstan.

But they arrived a day later (ie they had a day more in Iceland before the game)

[Dodge]

Where is this at now? I thought we'd know by 10.00am ... is it still ongoing?

Neither the club, nor the PFAI mentioned anything about 10am. Only the PFAI's lawyer

From what I've been told a) an agreement has been reached, its being signed by chairman today and b) game was never in doubt

[Macy]

It's a completely different to Galway - it's not a question of honouring contracts. Only people who don't try and get to the facts of each case would even suggest that it's always PFAI bad, clubs good and vica versa. Not that I think the PFAI are particularly effective at representing their members best interests, as with every union the people in elected positions generally represent their members views (or else they wouldn't get elected!).

However, I'm a bit surprised that compensation for time off wasn't in the contracts. I believe it was an issue for us last season, with the number of Friday night away games (which lead to us switching to Friday nights in the last series). But it seems that waters have been muddied even on that, if some of the above posts are to believed. Maybe it would be right that compensation for losses, that can be verified, should be in the contract? That'd be reasonable for the PFAI to look for, imo, no matter how cackhanded they're going about it.

[Dodge]

But that'd mean that the much vaunted 'standard PFAI contract' wasn't the panacea they tried to make out it was.

And in fairness to the PFAI, they've released one statement on this. Everything else is just conjecture by the lawyer (who although leaving his geo-tagged location on for his tweets showing him to be in Dublin 2, calimed he was out of the country on holidays). It'll all come out soon enough

[marinobohs]

Good news IF agreement has been reached. As I said previously this is far from unique circumstances and SHOULD have been raised by the PFAI before this.

Despite the PFAI affiliation to the biggest trade union in Ireland they appear incapable of any negotiation strategy apart from threat(s) and dragging issues through the media. Amazing that the FAI has not addressed this issue (PFAI tactics) and the negitive publicity it attracts to the LOI. Once again the actual match itself is secondary to an outside issue.

[Dodge]

Good news that agreement has been reached

To be clear, nobody has announced anything yet

[Macy]

But that'd mean that the much vaunted 'standard PFAI contract' wasn't the panacea they tried to make out it was
Who'd have thunk it!

[marinobohs]

To be clear, nobody has announced anything yet

Cheers, Dodge edited accordingly;)

[WoodquayBoy]

Nuclear option activated - from PFAI:
STATEMENT FROM THE PLAYERS OF ST PATRICK’S ATHLETIC FOOTBALL CLUB

Following receipt of a fax from the owners of St Patrick’s Athletic Football Club early this morning, we have considered its contents carefully. The faxed offer is the same offer that we rejected last night in our meeting with the club. Having discussed it at length, we are unanimous that the offer does not meet our minimum requirements.
The club will receive many multiples of the amounts we are seeking in prize money so payment to us would still leave the club in profit following our European campaign.
However, we have made it very clear to the board that our very modest requests would have to be agreed prior to tonight’s match; this issue has been ongoing for the past month. It is, therefore, with huge regret that we must inform you that we will not be participating in the fixture this evening. This is a unanimous decision of all the players and has not been reached lightly. We realise this is a devastating blow for the fans and the league. It is equally so for us as players but we cannot continue to be treated with disrespect by the club.


PFAI
Room 214 Players' Union Offices
National Sports Campus
Abbotstown
Dublin 15
Ireland
Tel +353 1 899 9350
Fax +353 1 899 9351
Email info@pfai.ie
Website www.pfai.ie (http://www.pfai.ie)

[SwanVsDalton]

Insane. Can't believe they actually wouldn't field, situation will be resolved surely.

[Ezeikial]

This is so insane - is this statement genuine, or has a 14 year old hacked in to the PFAI website?

Is it on their website?

[WoodquayBoy]

Well, it came to me in am email from the PFAI, I don't know if the sender was 14 or 41. Nothing on the PFAI website, but there has been no updates on their site since last Friday.

[Ezeikial]

The truth will emerge eventually and I suspect that the claimed issue of lost wages / time off work will be seen to be a smokescreen. Dodge's claim that the players were made an offer to more then cover these "out of pocket" costs is also reported in the Indo
http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/saints-european-pay-row-rumbles-to-eleventh-hour-2839263.html

The players agreed a package of €7,500 with the club for their victory over Iceland (http://searchtopics.independent.ie/topic/Iceland)'s IBV, but were looking for €20,000 for each of the last two rounds that took them to Kazakhstan (http://searchtopics.independent.ie/topic/Kazakhstan) and the Ukraine (http://searchtopics.independent.ie/topic/Ukraine), a figure at which the club initially baulked.

[Mr A]

All LOI clubs should make a pact that no one of these players ever receives another contract in the LOI.

Won't happen of course, but I'd love to see it.

Perhaps if players feel they deserve a cut when their efforts lead to profits for a club they should also help settle debts when inept performances lead to financial underperformance.

[pineapple stu]

Un-freaking-believable.

Presumably what will happen is an agreement will be reached (it's suicide to forfeit; the players definitely get nothing then) and the players will get (deserved) dogs' abuse from Pat's fans for maybe the rest of the season. Could potentially cause their season to collapse (or is that being a bit too dramatic?)

Also worrying that the PFAI are basically advocating players getting a set percentage of Euro profits now. Bonuses are all well and good - and players get that already - but if Rovers draw a big team in the Euro draw on Friday and the players get, say, 25% of all profits, that could stunt the league's development more than is necessary.

[sullanefc]

But they arrived a day later (ie they had a day more in Iceland before the game)

Right, didn't realist that. I still feel that the players shouldn't be out of pocket though. But surely these things should be resolved before the start of the season, written into contracts etc. The PFAI have really let the players down by not having a general agreement with clubs in place.

Just heard that the players are refusing to play now. Bad form IMO. There are plenty other things they could do, like refuse to train etc. This is bang out of order and could affect SPA for years.

[harleyleeds]

Un-freaking-believable.

Presumably what will happen is an agreement will be reached (it's suicide to forfeit; the players definitely get nothing then) and the players will get (deserved) dogs' abuse from Pat's fans for maybe the rest of the season. Could potentially cause their season to collapse (or is that being a bit too dramatic?)

Also worrying that the PFAI are basically advocating players getting a set percentage of Euro profits now. Bonuses are all well and good - and players get that already - but if Rovers draw a big team in the Euro draw on Friday and the players get, say, 25% of all profits, that could stunt the league's development more than is necessary.

surely the players deserve extra for playing in europe or at least expenses plus a bonus for winning/getting to next round. dont we want to give them every incentetive to do their best as without this whats the reason for them to win? they dont play for the love of the club but for money. if your boss asked you to work abroad for a week you would expect a bonus for it. clubs need to pay to encourage better players and for this need to pay.

[WoodquayBoy]

IMO, the players should be sanctioned not so much for bringing the game here into disrepute, but for making it an absolute laughing stock of Europe. Totally agree with Mr A suggestion that these guys should be blackballed by every other league clyub, Pats should sack the lot of them and use the players from their U19/A Championship sides

[desaintsno.12]

Un-freaking-believable.

Could potentially cause their season to collapse (or is that being a bit too dramatic?)

.

if this game isnt played the implications are going to be far far worse. Sporting ****ing Fingal worse

[WoodquayBoy]

if your boss asked you to work abroad for a week you would expect a bonus for it..

I'd love to have your job if that's how things operate where you work

[marinobohs]

Nuclear option activated - from PFAI:
STATEMENT FROM THE PLAYERS OF ST PATRICK’S ATHLETIC FOOTBALL CLUB

Following receipt of a fax from the owners of St Patrick’s Athletic Football Club early this morning, we have considered its contents carefully. The faxed offer is the same offer that we rejected last night in our meeting with the club. Having discussed it at length, we are unanimous that the offer does not meet our minimum requirements.
The club will receive many multiples of the amounts we are seeking in prize money so payment to us would still leave the club in profit following our European campaign.
However, we have made it very clear to the board that our very modest requests would have to be agreed prior to tonight’s match; this issue has been ongoing for the past month. It is, therefore, with huge regret that we must inform you that we will not be participating in the fixture this evening. This is a unanimous decision of all the players and has not been reached lightly. We realise this is a devastating blow for the fans and the league. It is equally so for us as players but we cannot continue to be treated with disrespect by the club.


PFAI
Room 214 Players' Union Offices
National Sports Campus
Abbotstown
Dublin 15
Ireland
Tel +353 1 899 9350
Fax +353 1 899 9351
Email info@pfai.ie
Website www.pfai.ie (http://www.pfai.ie)

Still find it hard to believe the players will take this unprecedented (and boy is that saying something in LOI) step. Statement is arrogant and quite possibly illegal - no contracts broken by employer and Industrial action entered prior to fulfilling requirements in law- would almost be worth it proceeding just to see these clowns end up in court.

[Mr Maroon]

Is there any precedent for this elsewhere in Europe? A UEFA game not going ahead because the players refused to play. What action did UEFA take?

I still think the players will play in the end though. They'll almost certainly lose.

[MagicMon]

Just when I thought the state of the LoI couldn't get any worse.

But chances are they'll sort something out last-minute and the game will be played.

[Ezeikial]

Right, didn't realist that. I still feel that the players shouldn't be out of pocket though. But surely these things should be resolved before the start of the season, written into contracts etc. The PFAI have really let the players down by not having a general agreement with clubs in place.

It seems that this players being "out of pocket" issue is a red herring.

PFAI to have an agreement forced on clubs? Yeah right, I wouldnt trust them to mow my lawn straight.






Just heard that the players are refusing to play now. Bad form IMO. There are plenty other things they could do, like refuse to train etc. This is bang out of order and could affect SPA for years.

The players and the PFAI are showing their true colours

[ger121]

Say they got ban and lost all monies earned. Would this impact the points they've contributed to the co-efficent?

[Mr Maroon]

Do Pats have players who aren't PFAI members who could play tonight? Amateur/youth players? They'd probably have to have been included in Pats' European squad though.

[pineapple stu]

surely the players deserve extra for playing in europe or at least expenses plus a bonus for winning/getting to next round.
Course they do. And they're getting it - that's not in dispute. They just want more, because they're in the second round.


if your boss asked you to work abroad for a week you would expect a bonus for it
No I wouldn't. I'd expect my expenses to be covered, and - assuming the club chartered a flight and paid for the hotel, etc - that's the case here.

[pineapple stu]

Also - where are the FAI in all this?

Step in, tell the players to stfu for today, play the game and arrange a meeting for tomorrow. Ridiculous that this kind of crap can just rumble on.

Edit - confirmation (http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2011/0804/stpats1.html) of the e-mail anyway, just in case anyone doubted Woodquay Boy!

[harleyleeds]

I'd love to have your job if that's how things operate where you work

of course thats how things work you should pay your players galway should be put out of the league and let in to 1st div next season to start over.

[paul_oshea]

SO if Pats players say they aren't playing. DO Lviv have to show up at the ground anyway tonight? I gather so like any other game.

Great ploy by Pats to disrupt Lviv. :)

Seriously though, I don't have a clue about any of this or how it works as regards contracts, but im sure some of the players are happy with what they got but they are being dragged through by either a majority or those more vocal and forceful within the group. Shame either way. THey will all be tarred with the same brush now and lose all respect and credibility.

[El-Pietro]

I'd love to have your job if that's how things operate where you workagreed!

im going abroad next week for work. Not getting anything extra for it, they are paying to send me there and putting me up, and I can claim expenses when I get back but thats it. Why would I expect any extra money?

[WoodquayBoy]

Edit - confirmation (http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2011/0804/stpats1.html) of the e-mail anyway, just in case anyone doubted Woodquay Boy!

Believe me, that is not something I'd make up as I wouldn't think anyone would believe it

[WoodquayBoy]

of course thats how things work you should pay your players galway should be put out of the league and let in to 1st div next season to start over.

Yes you should pay your players, that is not what is at issue here - the Pats players have been paid, they just want more. Pretty pathetic attempt at an auld dig.

[Doomofman]

Hope every single one of them is booted out and never plays in this league again...

[Stevo Da Gull]

Do Pats have players who aren't PFAI members who could play tonight? Amateur/youth players? They'd probably have to have been included in Pats' European squad though.

If football manager is anything to go by, players under 21 (I think) don't have to be registered. Yep, I referenced football manager.

[footballplease]

well i suppose this is our annual 'farcical situation' - i was wondering what it would be this season!

As a matter of interest, what are pats' fans views on this?

[passinginterest]

Maybe I imagined this but I'm pretty sure it's something of a tradition in football that bonuses earned are all paid at the end of the season, rather than in the regular wages. So the Pat's payers are allegedly about to cause the biggest embarrassment in Irish football history (now that's saying something) over bonuses that, from what we know, are not in their contracts and probably won't be paid until the end of the season anyway? There's plenty of time for negotiation and plenty of other tactics open to them that are far less likely to kill the club and disgrace the league.

[marinobohs]

Do Pats have players who aren't PFAI members who could play tonight? Amateur/youth players? They'd probably have to have been included in Pats' European squad though.

Think any such players would be unregistered and therefore unable to play. Still suspect a compromise will be found in timefor kick off. While historically players have not always been treated well in LOI this is a hell of a step backward by PFAI.

[osarusan]

This is just madness. I can only think it's a game of chicken, with potentially disastrous consequences.

I don't understand how the players think they're going to come out of this with any credit - if I am right in my conclusion that the players are asking for more reward because they are in the next round. They may say the situation has been dragging on for over a month, but it should have been sorted out before the season even started (point taken that some contracts had been signed before Fingal pulled out).

[Macy]

I'd naturally be on the side of the worker, but I find this one unforgiveable. Knowing the hoops that have to be jumped through to get sanction from proper Unions for industrial action, I'd also have questions on the legality of the action to be honest.

[KBurke]

Easy solution Take the money from Delaney s wages. He wouldn't notice 20K going from his €400,000 salary

[osarusan]

Also, is there an official process for pulling out of a tie? At what point can Lviv just get on the bus to the airport? Or is there some time / moment / submission or non-submission of a piece of paperwork which means the point of no return has been crossed?

[Kingdom]

I feel sorry for fans of the league, but really bad for the Pats fans, of who I know a good few. This is madness by the players, and to me seems like terrible advice by their union. Surely if the players don't play and the club suffer financially they can issue legal proceedings against the players?

[gufct]

The PFAI have a lot to answer for .

[White Horse]

Utter lunacy. No-one comes out of this with any credit. A new low for the league.

[DannyInvincible]

Wow, stunned by this. Terrible news for St. Pat's and the league. Awful publicity that'll make news across Europe. It's confirmed on the RTÉ site now. Just saw it a few minutes ago myself. Pat's will be sanctioned for this, including fines, future competition repercussion, costs of Lviv's travel and such, presumably. Surely something will be sorted though? I just can't imagine that this game wouldn't be going ahead. Not saying it's right at all if there are no such contracts in place - it's shameful behaviour from the players actually and they deserve to be sharply criticised and disciplined by both club and fans - but the club are essentially being held to ransom here and I'd estimate it would be more costly for them not to cave in because of the possible UEFA repercussions than to hold out and the fixture not going ahead, but would it set an awful precedent? Obviously, the players know the club's situation. It's very manipulative. Can the club play a team of players aged under 21? Not certain of the strict registration rules in place (i.e. can't remember from Football Manager).

[WoodquayBoy]

I'd imagine Karpaty have to show up, submit a team, tog out, line out and kick-off, and then the referee would blow the whistle to end the game