Rugby 2011

[Macy]

There should be a revived and revised version of the Churchill Cup for the 2nd tier nations to allow them the regular competition - even against A sides of the top tier sides would be enough to give them the competitive games they need. IIRC it was stopped because USA and Canada are now fully part of the international series. Not convinced promotion/ relegation play offs would help much to be honest.

I think Italy will only progress more now they have teams in the Celtic League. I can't see how anyone could argue they haven't been an addition to the championship. As has pointed out, Ireland were at a similar standard for most of the 90's, and were probably lucky they weren't in it in those days!

[legendz]

Why would there HAVE to be? Because there is in Soccer?

The 6 Nations are clearly the 6 leading nations in the continent. The winners' of that competition are rightly considered the European Champions.

No, not at all because there is in soccer. The 6 nations has such history and tradition of the main body of nations always competing that I'd like to see remain. It is the leading nations alright but the competition started out as 4 nations. If opening the 6 nations isn't an option, and tradition has to be respected as well, another way for determining European champion will have to be found. If the competing nations of the 6 nations are open to the idea of promotion/relegation, then there's no problem but if they are not it should be respected.

[legendz]

There should be a revived and revised version of the Churchill Cup for the 2nd tier nations to allow them the regular competition - even against A sides of the top tier sides would be enough to give them the competitive games they need. IIRC it was stopped because USA and Canada are now fully part of the international series. Not convinced promotion/ relegation play offs would help much to be honest.

I think Italy will only progress more now they have teams in the Celtic League. I can't see how anyone could argue they haven't been an addition to the championship. As has pointed out, Ireland were at a similar standard for most of the 90's, and were probably lucky they weren't in it in those days!

They were long dark days, I remember them well. It was still great to have Ireland involved. It is tradition that we were. I'd have hate to have seen us demoted to a second tier competition.
6N being leading nations will have status of best team in Europe but if the likes of Georgia and Romania want a shot and are lobbying for inclusion I think the options are promotion/relegation to 6N but if the 6 nations don't agree a separate competition would be needed to earn title of Europe's best.

[Macy]

There's no contradiction in the current system of the 6 nations champions being european champions. There should be a mechanism for emerging nation to play the top teir nations to estabilish their credentials over a period, which is what Italy did in the 90's to gain entry (including a few victories over us, including in Dublin (just to back up earlier points!)). But that doesn't mean it has to be a promotion/ relegation play off as such.

[Stuttgart88]

I don't see why a second division can't exist, with the winner being promoted to the 6N and the 6N 6th place team dropping down.

Well I do, but it's not that unrealistic.

Who'd be in Div 2? Romania, Russia, Georgia (the latter two playing each other would be some game!). Who else plays?

Geysir, could you scrape a team together?

[cornflakes]

I don't see why a second division can't exist, with the winner being promoted to the 6N and the 6N 6th place team dropping down.

Well I do, but it's not that unrealistic.

Who'd be in Div 2? Romania, Russia, Georgia (the latter two playing each other would be some game!). Who else plays?

Geysir, could you scrape a team together?

Ukraine, Portugal and Spain are in Div.2 or Division 1A as its known. Here's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Nations_Cup_(Rugby_Union)#Current_divisio ns_.282010-2012.29) all the other divisions, there is relegation/promotion between these every two years

[BonnieShels]

I don't think the second tier nations are ready to step up yet to full on entry into the 6N.
I do however think its time an annual game between the 6th place team in the 6N and the 1st place team in the ENC.

For the first few years it could be considered a trial run where it doesn't affect the composition of the 6N and let's be honest, the ENC team wouldn't have much hope of victory. But after say 4 or 5 years of this with constant improvements in their abilities then the IRB could open up the potential for demotion for the big six.

Maybe 10 years in a row the ENC team would lose but with every year there would be noticeable improvements like there has been undoubtedly in Georgia, Canada and Portugal over the last 10 years. At some stage they will win and at some stage we can look forward to a trip to Tbilisi in the 6N.

I think its worth a go.

[mypost]

And no answers either, apart from underlying your assertion that results justify participation.

Argentina have just been invited to join the other heavyweights down South. They are a competitive side, and will get results, especially at home. Italy shouldn't be expelled from the 6N, but they should never have been allowed in it until they were ready. With 32 losses out of 33 against England France and Ireland, no club success, and no WC impact since then, it's doubtful if they ever will be able to be anything more than a handy 2 points for the opposition.

[Macy]

Italy were let in because they were competitive against, and indeed beating, 5 nations teams. In the mid to late 90's they beat us in Dublin and Italy, France in France, Scotland in Italy. and ran England close a couple of times. First year in they beat Scotland, who were bloody holders. How ready did they need to be?

[Real ale Madrid]

Argentina have just been invited to join the other heavyweights down South. They are a competitive side, and will get results, especially at home. Italy shouldn't be expelled from the 6N, but they should never have been allowed in it until they were ready. With 32 losses out of 33 against England France and Ireland, no club success, and no WC impact since then, it's doubtful if they ever will be able to be anything more than a handy 2 points for the opposition.

Argentina have never ever beaten New Zealand or South Africa and haven't beaten Australia in 14 years - you have no problem with them in the new 4 nations tournament, yet Italy weren't ready ? Your argument isn't even consistant. There's more to the participation of team than the results - results only tell part of the story.

Argentina deserve thier shot in the 4 nations - Italy deserved its shot at the six nations, and while they haven't been as competitive as they would have liked, thier participation has envigorated the tournament - soon the Euro powers that be will need to make room for Russia and Georgia as well.

[legendz]

It's only from now Italy are likely to work on possible club success. Countries need good structures at that level if they are to progress at international level. For top ENC nations to progress more they have to lobby for it as well. It's not all down to the IRB. It's down to Georgia and Romania to stake their claims as well. Italy did that. Progression has to work on two fronts. I haven't heard much talk from the Georgian and Romanians. If they show the ENC is not enough for their ambitions, I'm sure something can be done.
Spain, Portugal and Romania are the only non-first tier countries having a club in the Amlin Challenge Cup. Romania are represented by Bucureşti. The side is a team that is formed every season to play in the Challenge Cup, consisting of footballers playing in the domestic Romanian leagues. The team has yet to make it past the pool stages in the Challenge Cup, but have managed some good results. Georgia should field a team like that as well. These are way countries and work to develop giving their better club players a chance to compete at a decent level.

[mypost]

Argentina have never ever beaten New Zealand or South Africa and haven't beaten Australia in 14 years - yet you have no problem with them in the new 4 nations tournament, yet Italy weren't ready ? Your argument isn't even consistant. There's more to the participation of team than the results - results only tell part of the story.

Argentina deserve thier shot in the 4 nations - Italy deserved its shot at the six nations, and while they haven't been as competitive as they would have liked, thier participation has envigorated the tournament - soon the Euro powers that be will need to make room for Russia and Georgia as well.

Argentina were semi-finalists in the last WC and beat Ireland in two WC's, they're also in the knockout rounds of this. They won't win at the weekend, (it's hard to see any side beating NZ on home soil) but they are a good side. Italy haven't merely been as competitive as they would have liked, they haven't been competitive at all. Results pay the bills and as in football, they determine rankings, qualifications, and titles.

[Real ale Madrid]

Argentina were semi-finalists in the last WC and beat Ireland in two WC's, they're also in the knockout rounds of this. They won't win at the weekend, (it's hard to see any side beating NZ on home soil) but they are a good side. Italy haven't merely been as competitive as they would have liked, they haven't been competitive at all.

You make the same point over and over again re. results - its not consistant. You are picking and chosing results that suit you - Italy's wins before and during the 6N are not relevant, yet Argentina's excellent world cup perfomance in 2007 is justification for a 4 nations ticket ( despite thier record against thier future opponents )


Results pay the bills and as in football, they determine rankings, qualifications, and titles.

Results results results. Forget about what's good for the game.

[mypost]

I did say Argentina beat us in 2 WC's. They've now reached the knockouts in 3 of them. If we played Argentina tomorrow, you know we'd be in for a tough game that could go either way. If we play Italy, we win all the time, and usually by 20-30 points. The difference between the opposition is night and day.

I make the same point over and over again, because it's very important. Everyone is selecting results in their arguments, so no surprise that I am also.

[Real ale Madrid]

I did say Argentina beat us in 2 WC's. They've now reached the knockouts in 3 of them. If we played Argentina tomorrow, you know we'd be in for a tough game that could go either way. If we play Italy, we win all the time, and usually by 20-30 points. The difference between the opposition is night and day.

I make the same point over and over again, because it's very important. Everyone is selecting results in their arguments, so no surprise that I am also.

You used Italy's results against Ireland , France and England when agruing for thier exclusion in the 6N's, a consistant argument would have compared Argentina's results against New Zealand and Australia as a tool when making a case for thier inclusion in the new southern hempisphere tournament. You ignore for example, Italy's results against Scotland and Wales. Argentina have lost a lot of big names over the last few years and I think they will struggle to get any wins - prob 1 or 2 per tournament will be the max they can get - no doubt when that happens you'll be on here calling for thier exclusion. Anyway I don't see results as the no.1 barometer for progress or it is the most important, I'm merely pointing out the flaw in your argument.

Globalisation of the game is important for the future of it - the same 8 tier 1 nations can't go on forever on thier own. That why it's important that the Argentina's and Italy's of this world get as much exposure to top games as possible. 20 team world cup's are also important. The next step is Georgian and Russian clubs or regions teams competing in the Challenge Cup for example. Munster v Siberia would be a cracker in 2020!

[mypost]

You used Italy's results against Ireland , France and England when agruing for thier exclusion in the 6N's, a consistant argument would have compared Argentina's results against New Zealand and Australia as a tool when making a case for thier inclusion in the new southern hempisphere tournament. You ignore for example, Italy's results against Scotland and Wales.

They've lost most of those as well. Very few nations in the world can beat Australia and NZ, Ireland have never beaten NZ, and until this, had never beaten Australia at the WC. I remember watching the rest of Australia-Ireland 1/4 final live in 1987, and astonished to find Ireland 30 points down already!!

What you can use as a comparison is Argentina's results against sides from this part of the world. Most of the games were close, a lot were very competitive, and they've won their share of them. Argentina obviously can't play in the 6N, so have to play in a different tournament. Their games will be competitive, and the crowd there will make games uncomfortable for the opposition.


The next step is Georgian and Russian clubs or regions teams competing in the Challenge Cup for example. Munster v Siberia would be a cracker in 2020!

60 points or 70 points, what do you think?

[geysir]

I don't see why a second division can't exist, with the winner being promoted to the 6N and the 6N 6th place team dropping down.

Well I do, but it's not that unrealistic.

Who'd be in Div 2? Romania, Russia, Georgia (the latter two playing each other would be some game!). Who else plays?

Geysir, could you scrape a team together?
I know féck all about Rugby, but still a good bit more than Mypost though.

I like your idea of a 2nd div, but can you imagine the 6N voting for relegation/promotion? Look how long it took for them to accept Italy into the ranks and the way they (the rugby elite) have snubbed Argentina year after year.
Maybe if they were paid enough? money talks a lot in rugby, any rugby person I know has something to do with money.

[Real ale Madrid]

Georgia / Russia need to start playing / hosting games on a regular basis first. That should be the main focus over the next 4 years. As someone already said it wouldn't kill the major nations to go there once every 2 / 3 years . If they could get 3 games in November and 3 in June and keep playing ENC rugby during the 6 nations window - this would be a start.

I can't understand why there isn't a big push to get a Georgian / Russian team in the challenge cup - if there can be a Spanish team, why not ?

[Macy]

I like your idea of a 2nd div, but can you imagine the 6N voting for relegation/promotion? Look how long it took for them to accept Italy into the ranks and the way they (the rugby elite) have snubbed Argentina year after year.
Maybe if they were paid enough? money talks a lot in rugby, any rugby person I know has something to do with money.
Once Italy started getting results, they weren't that long being accepted. I think it's a bit harsh to blame it purely on money - there's a lot of tradition around the championship too.

I wouldn't be a fan of relegation from 6 nations - the focus should be on expansion. Regular games against tier one teams in the autumn and summer windows would be a start. Maybe the ENC champion should have promotion to the international calendar? Also, regarding a Georgian team in the challenge cup - I've no objection in theory, but most of their international team play in France...

[geysir]

Once Italy started getting results, they weren't that long being accepted.
Italy were getting some good and some exceptional results as an emerging team for 20 years before they were accepted into the expanded 6 nations.
And I think some good results or some good performances came at the world cup as well


I think it's a bit harsh to blame it purely on money - there's a lot of tradition around the championship too.

I didn't blame it on money at all, more a reference to the lack of willingness to change, to adopt a newcomer and break away from those negative constraints of tradition.

[legendz]

Italy and Argentina did have to earn it the hard way but it was down to them as well and they did it. Georgia, Russia and Romania have shown anything near the performance of Italy and Argentina when those nations started to impress. The ENC is offering an opportunity for more countries to develop, an opportunity I'm not aware of Argentina and Italy having. The top ENC sides need more top level games though, I agree fully with that. They need more big test games and test against Europe leading nations.

[legendz]

Looking forward to tomorrow mornings game. It's been great so far to see Ireland win all 4 games and top the group. It'll be fantastic to make the semi-finals, for the first time ever.

[Macy]

Italy were getting some good and some exceptional results as an emerging team for 20 years before they were accepted into the expanded 6 nations.
And I think some good results or some good performances came at the world cup as well.
I'm not going to go mypostal on it - I'm not going to argue too much that weren't unduly delayed in gaining entry to the Championship, and did get occasional results before then. However, I think it was the 1995 World Cup that they really became competitive, and they really kicked on from there results wise, and the first 6 Nations was 2000.

[geysir]

No, no one should ever go mypostal on a debate, explanation about opinions made is quite sufficient :)

The 6 nations is a cosy, nice sized, cartel, but I assume Stutts is thinking like me that it would good if there was some criteria for an emerging team to enter that cartel. For myself I have a great admiration for the dedication applied to developing the sport in those 'emerging' countries, so much so that I was almost disappointed when O'Gara dropped that goal in Rome.

[bennocelt]

FFS! Wales, Jesus h Christ - EMBARRASSING, just as we were getting on top again then we make two stupid mistakes in the line out, that's the end for the old guard and our best ever chance to make a final. Watch England make the final in their sleep. And when are we going to get rid of that dirge as an anthem, more embaressment seeing Irish people sing that pop song, whats wrong with Danny Boy. FFS
(early morning rant,lol, sorry!)

[Real ale Madrid]

Wales were superb. Nothing but admiration for them. Irelands mistakes were down to pressure. We were beaten in every facet of the game. They have every chance of winning the competition now.

[cavan_fan]

It felt like we were pushing it from the first try on. I think the 2 missed penalty opportunities led to a sense of panic. My hunch is it was a good idea for the first one (try to hit back immediately, confidence in our forwards etc) and then when the second came along we made the same decision rather than admit the first was a mistake.

Also felt that all the bounces went wales' way we didnt get the benefit of turnovers etc.

[SwanVsDalton]

It felt like we were pushing it from the first try on. I think the 2 missed penalty opportunities led to a sense of panic. My hunch is it was a good idea for the first one (try to hit back immediately, confidence in our forwards etc) and then when the second came along we made the same decision rather than admit the first was a mistake.

Also felt that all the bounces went wales' way we didnt get the benefit of turnovers etc.

Agree on the penos. The second one definitely should've been kicked for goal. Incredible lack of composure from experienced players who should no better.

As good as Wales were - and they were excellent - we made their life easier with a fairly lifeless backline performance and some typically silly mistakes at crucial times. It's gutting we couldn't have shown more when, as pointed out, we'll likely never have a better chance to win the thing.

[shakermaker1982]

The games momentum swung when we messed up on our own throw on the half way line.

All week everybody has been banging on about
Warburton at the breakdown and I'm surprised we didn't have an effective plan to combat him. Welsh defence excellent but our big game players didn't turn up.

[OwlsFan]

Back at 10 all and we lose our first lineout. And Wales score. Such is the fine dividing line and the momentum remains with Wales for the rest of the game. Talk of winning the tournament was ridiculous as this Irish team wasn't capable of putting in back to back to back consistent performances. Pity but now back to the soccer.

[Macy]

Not taking the penalties was stupid - get the points on the board ffs, whoever's call it was. If weren't going to play to O'Gara's strengths, we should've gone for Sexton. Yet another coulda, woulda, shoulda.

[mypost]

when are we going to get rid of that dirge as an anthem, more embaressment seeing Irish people sing that pop song, whats wrong with Danny Boy. FFS
(early morning rant,lol, sorry!)

Watched the Wales players sing their anthem with pride, while we are the only country to have no anthem, just a meaningless plastic tune.

Ireland couldn't handle the favourites tag again, but they'll have 4 years before playing the next big tournament, and on the bright side, it should condemn the idea of rugby overtaking our sport in popularity until then.

At least the football team are still in a tournament. :)

[Charlie Darwin]

No arguments here. Wales were the better team in every area of the game. I hope they can bring the same intensity to the French game.


And when are we going to get rid of that dirge as an anthem, more embaressment seeing Irish people sing that pop song, whats wrong with Danny Boy. FFS
(early morning rant,lol, sorry!)
You realise Danny Boy is actually a dirge, right? In the true definition of the word.

[Cymro]

I'm not sure what bennocelt is talking about when he says it was embarrassing. Our defence was immense. Five or six times Ireland had us on our goal line, and five or six times we drove you back with no points. We even had the luxury of several missed kicks.

Ireland played quite well in the first half and a few years back we'd have folded and lost that game 35-7 or something. But Gatland has done a terrific job in maintaining consistently excellent performance levels ever since coming in.

Shame for quality players like O'Driscoll and D'Arcy to bow out of their last ever World Cup like that, especially after that great win against the Aussies in the pool. But we totally deserved the victory - no controversial try needed today.

[Cymro]

Not taking the penalties was stupid - get the points on the board ffs, whoever's call it was. If weren't going to play to O'Gara's strengths, we should've gone for Sexton. Yet another coulda, woulda, shoulda.

I agree, I couldn't believe O'Gara kept kicking into touch in the 1st half when you had so much possession. Getting points on the board then would have given Ireland the lead in the second half assuming the game proceeded as it did, and that would have left us chasing the game and who knows what would have happened then.

[bennocelt]

I'm not sure what bennocelt is talking about when he says it was embarrassing. Our defence was immense. Five or six times Ireland had us on our goal line, and five or six times we drove you back with no points. We even had the luxury of several missed kicks.

But we totally deserved the victory - no controversial try needed today.

Yeah def deserved the victory no doubt and the defence was very tight, but Ireland didnt really turn up at all, and the big guns were all over the place. To beat the Aussies then lose to a Welsh team that are beatable, damn.

Anyhow, typical French turn on the style, wow

[bennocelt]

You realise Danny Boy is actually a dirge, right? In the true definition of the word.

True, it might not be the best song in the world, but at least its a better alternative

[paul_oshea]

Now isn't the right time.....

[Cymro]

To beat the Aussies then lose to a Welsh team that are beatable, damn.


I'm not sure Australia are a better team than us at the moment to be honest.

[hoops1]

Not trying to upset the genuine rugby fan but that result was entirely predictable. The hype around the team went way way way over the top.
Talk about semi finals and finals was commonplace. Wales are a proud rugby nation and we basically dismissed them.

[tetsujin1979]

Better team won, no question about it.

[bennocelt]

I'm not sure Australia are a better team than us at the moment to be honest.

Yeah but to beat the Aussies at a world cup never happened before, a big physiological boost. Anyway good luck against the French:D

[geysir]

Afaia, O'Gara kicked into touch because the chances of him converting from the sideline into the wind were slim. Did the Welsh guy convert much in the 2nd half?
Anyway Wales were magnificent and even better than magnificent when defending inside their 25.
At 10-10 there was a glimmer but it would be a total disrespect to the Wales effort to say there was a fine line at that stage which Ireland could have crossed. Tough for the Irish to have to digest yet another World Cup flop.

[Stuttgart88]

The timing of Wales' scores were perfect for them, devastating for us. I was telling my mates last night that I was afraid of wales, and I was told no, we're better. Still, I'm always worried - it's part of being Irish and into sport. Anyone Irishman who is confident going into a big team game can't be a real sports fan :)

[paul_oshea]

Stutts i told you and posted hear that i thought we would lose to wales.very disappointing but at least we will have a playoff to look forward to..hopefully

[Stuttgart88]

You did, that's true.

[Cuyahoga]

Its all Ryle Nugent's fault RTE should have left Hugh Cahill doing the commentary and Ireland would be in the semis!

[Stuttgart88]

Only saw second half of Oz v SA but thought SA wuz robbed, or at least very unlucky. High tackles unpunished, fwd passes penalised (rightly) but no more fwd than 3 or 4 that have gone unpunished so far in NZ game, and that nearly always go unpunished. Even the final penalty was harsh I thought. Contact in the line out was minimal. I think the Oz guy just fell.

Argies giving NZ a run for their money so far.

[geysir]

For those who will be cheering on our celtic cousins (last week's welsh slime) in their historic semi final against the French.
If you were wondering about - wouldn't it be nice to join in their national anthem -
but thought it infinitely beyond the realms of possibilities, don't give up hope.
Poet Nigel Jenkins has clipped in with a phonetic transcription of Hen Wlad fy Nhadau,
which actually fits in quite decent as long as you can keep a straight face.

My hen laid a haddock, one hand oiled a flea,
Glad farts and centurions threw dogs in the sea,
I could stew a hare here and brandish Dan's flan,
Don's ruddy bog's blocked up with sand.
Dad! Dad! Why don't you oil Auntie Glad?
Can whores appear in beer bottle pies,
O butter the hens as they fly!


Mae hen wlad fy nhadau yn annwyl i mi,
Gwlad beirdd a chantorion, enwogion o fri;
Ei gwrol ryfelwyr, gwladgarwyr tra mad,
Dros ryddid collasant eu gwaed.
Gwlad, gwlad, pleidiol wyf i'm gwlad.
Tra môr yn fur i'r bur hoff bau,
O bydded i'r hen iaith barhau.

[BonnieShels]

I'll be supporting the French. Never been a Welsh fan always support England against them too. Allez Les Bleus!