Rugby 2011

[geysir]

The rain must be getting to Gerry Thornley in NZ

Gerry's opening line in his IT article today highlighting Ireland's failure in the WC so far
'It probably shouldn’t have come down to this, but it has. Despite beating Australia, the failure to post a bonus-point fourth try against the USA means that, instead of requiring just a solitary bonus point to advance as group winners, Ireland effectively must beat the Azzurri to ensure their place in the last eight'

Yes Gerry, Ireland did not gain a bonus point against the USA but they made amends for that in spades by beating Australia, in one swoop taking care of previous indiscretions completely and putting Ireland into an unprecedented position at a WC, where they are 1/8 to top the pool before the final game.
Some failure that.

[Charlie Darwin]

Yeah, surely we've needed to beat Italy all along? The Australia win was a bonus.

I watched Ulster be beaten by Dragons last night. They made tons of mistakes but the backs in particular look really, really exciting. I saw Gilroy make an impossible O'Driscoll-like pick off the ground on the run, and the out half Jackson has a great step. The future looks good for Ulster I think.

[paudie]

Dan Carter reported to be out of the World Cup with a groin injury.

[Kingdom]

The rain must be getting to Gerry Thornley in NZ

Gerry's opening line in his IT article today highlighting Ireland's failure in the WC so far
'It probably shouldn’t have come down to this, but it has. Despite beating Australia, the failure to post a bonus-point fourth try against the USA means that, instead of requiring just a solitary bonus point to advance as group winners, Ireland effectively must beat the Azzurri to ensure their place in the last eight'

Yes Gerry, Ireland did not gain a bonus point against the USA but they made amends for that in spades by beating Australia, in one swoop taking care of previous indiscretions completely and putting Ireland into an unprecedented position at a WC, where they are 1/8 to top the pool before the final game.
Some failure that.

Geysir, do you read him often? He's about the most positive, pro-Ireland journalist there is.

[BonnieShels]

The tension... oh the tension!

[mypost]

If Ireland can't beat Italy, after winning near 15 games in a row, they shouldn't be there, as it's only going to get harder from here on in.

[BonnieShels]

Now now. Optimism. We are the better side. a try and we've done it.

[Lionel Ritchie]

Solid showing. Now like an ulcer flare-up after christmas I anticipate a new "Is rugby overtaking Soccer yadda yadda yadda...." thread.

[BonnieShels]

NO NO!

Please no. I hate those threads.

Wonderful performance.

To a man they were magnificent.

[Real ale Madrid]

Solid showing. Now like an ulcer flare-up after christmas I anticipate a new "Is rugby overtaking Soccer yadda yadda yadda...." thread.

You won't get that , but you will get a raft of newspaper sh1te to the effect of , rugby lads are great, soccer players are aloof, too much money blah blah blah...

Great opportunity for this team now. Wales is going to be some game. Delighted to be wrong about D'arcy , Heaslip was excellent also. Seems like we are hitting form at the right time.....

[BonnieShels]

I echo your sentiment about D'arcy. I've been his biggest supporter the last few years but had started to lose faith.

Brilliant today.

[Real ale Madrid]

Wales game on TG4 at the moment. An absolute cakewalk, hardly ideal preparation for next week.

[Stuttgart88]

Any argument over the ROG selection now?

Ireland will never have a better chance of getting to a WC Final. We can beat any of the 3 teams standing in our way. We can lose to them too. Wales is going to be a corker.

[geysir]

Geysir, do you read him often? He's about the most positive, pro-Ireland journalist there is.
I'd only read about rugby when there is a bandwagon revving up.
Whether he is the most positive or not (relatively speaking), doesn't matter one jot to me. His opening line, arguably the most important line in an article, was highlighting a negative which had already been more than rectified. And on the necessity to beat Italy - as Charlie pointed out - inaccurate in the scheme of things, as Ireland had always thought and planned for beating Italy, nothing had changed on that level. What had changed was the prize for beating them.
Most everybody had grasped this significance, but perhaps Gerry is a man ground down by repeated failures of the intl rugby teams on this stage, cannot get the fear of failure out of his system. Perhaps he was overly concerned, overwhelmed by the fear that he would have to take an early flight home?

[mypost]

Wonderful performance.

To a man they were magnificent.

They shouldn't need a wonderful performance to beat Italy.

If they beat Wales, they would surely prefer to play England in the semis instead of France. France always knock us out when they have to.

[BonnieShels]

They shouldn't need a wonderful performance to beat Italy.

If they beat Wales, they would surely prefer to play England in the semis instead of France. France always knock us out when they have to.

What does that even mean? Would you rather we just about got over the line with them?

I'd rather we do the best we can as often as we can.

Agree about playing England instead of France, but to be honest I could care less once we are in the Semis!

[mypost]

It means Italy are rubbish, and will always be rubbish. Teams often run-up 30-40-50 point wins over them in the 6N. Training Session material.

[Macy]

Any argument over the ROG selection now?
Don't think there was that much debate for this one, I wouldn't think it's closed for Wales tbh. I'd go O'Gara again, for what it's worth, even though it was good to see Sexton nail the two he had - the conversion especially.

[legendz]

Wales game on TG4 at the moment. An absolute cakewalk, hardly ideal preparation for next week.

I can see why they want more nations involved but it's been a poor world cup as a result. It should get better from here but as long as Ireland are doing well, it's great.

[Real ale Madrid]

I can see why they want more nations involved but it's been a poor world cup as a result. It should get better from here but as long as Ireland are doing well, it's great.

I have to say that there seems to be an improvement in each world cup - no one has broken the 90 point barrier for instance this time round and some countries are making good progress, Georgia and Samoa for instance, - the IRB could be doing much more to improve things IMO having said that. But gone are the 145-0 days anyway.

[BonnieShels]

Completely agree oh gasless one.

It's easily been the best World Cup I have watched atmosphere wise at the games (I exclude our games obv.) even the attitude of the minnow nations is completely different then it used to be.

Canada v NZ wasn't the cakewalk for the All Blacks it would have been 10 years ago. The Canadian's heads never went down like they would have done. The Wales-Fiji game was a freak.

This weekend is not coming quick enough.

[Real ale Madrid]

One thing I have to mention is this whole England ball swapping scandal which has really cast a shadow over the whole tournament.

England basically got caught swapping balls between conversions during the Romania game - one of the backroom staff would hand a ball with different pressure to Wilko before he took a conversion. I'm not sure of the rules exactly - but I know that if a kicker / any player is unhappy with the match ball being used, he can ask the referee to check it who then can, change the ball if he is unhappy. What England did was basically cheating.

When this was found out the RFU suspended two of the backroom staff involved for the Scotland game - this seemed to appease the IRB / RWCL (Rugby world cup Limited) who are supossed to be running the tournament and therefore supposed to be sanctioning teams in the case of any disciplinary procedures.

A few days later a Samoan player was fined $10,000 for wearing a mouthguard with a sponsor's name on it, contraving RWCL rules!

I cannot understand why RWCL didn't investigate the England debacle further yet they have no problem slapping a huge fine on the Samoans who can't even afford to pay thier players for the duration of the tournament.

Its hugely disapointing behaviour, and the worst thing about it, is that it seems to have been brushed under the carpet. The IRB would really want to get thier house in order.

[legendz]

Hmmm. I take ye're point on the beatings being less, maybe it is working in that respect. One thing which should change though is that the World Cup is played over one extra week. This way the lesser seeds are given a fairer chance without having to play midweek games.
Do the lesser nations have any tournaments outside of the World Cup? Argentina finally are getting to join a 4 nations. I know there's the European Nations Cup for Europe's lesser nations. The like of the US, Canada and pacific teams, do they have any competition?

[Real ale Madrid]

There is a Pacific competition which includes Japan - check out IRB.com under tournaments. US / Canada play each other twice a year and used to comete in the Churchill cup - but that tournament is gone now.

Canada really haven't been helped geographically - in the late 80's early 90's they weren't the minnow they are now and even reached the Quarter Finals in 1991. Professionalism has had a big impact on the playing standards - the Gap between those who could run Pro teams and those who could not widened dramatically, it will be a long process but hopefully the appeal of the game can grow - the 20 team tournament is vital in this regard.

[BonnieShels]

Best in the team!

NYIAOW!

[Real ale Madrid]

Best in the team!

NYIAOW!

Link?

[BonnieShels]

Saw it on VB. Think it was in the Indo.

Team announcement is at 115am.

Here (http://www.facebook.com/rterugby), here (http://twitter.com/#!/rterugby) and here (RTE.ie/sport).

[BonnieShels]

Seems to have been removed from the website now.

[Mr A]

In the team according to RTE: http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/worldcup/2011/1005/rwc_ireland__team_wales.html

[legendz]

There is a Pacific competition which includes Japan - check out IRB.com under tournaments. US / Canada play each other twice a year and used to comete in the Churchill cup - but that tournament is gone now.

Canada really haven't been helped geographically - in the late 80's early 90's they weren't the minnow they are now and even reached the Quarter Finals in 1991. Professionalism has had a big impact on the playing standards - the Gap between those who could run Pro teams and those who could not widened dramatically, it will be a long process but hopefully the appeal of the game can grow - the 20 team tournament is vital in this regard.

Thanks for that. I'd like to see the US and Canada included in that being a Pacific 6 nations or something like that. I suppose logistics of travel is the one thing that would count against it but then again Argentina are joining the tri nations to being 4 nations but there's more money in that.

[BonnieShels]

What needs to happen soon is the realisation that there needs to be a way for the smaller European nations to gain entry into the Six Nations (SN). Unless there's regular competition with the better sides they will never make it. Just look at Italy now compared to Italy in 2000 when they joined the then Five Nations.

There have been some seriously watery proposals from the IRB and FIRA about some sort of promotion and relegation to the SN from the ENC.

Whilst this would be absolutely preposterous to have a direct relegation it would make sense for the last placed team to play off with the 1st placed ENC team to ensure a consistent goal for the ENC teams.
So say this year Italy play-off against Georgia for the right to play in the SN. Italy would win but the continued compettion for georgia would ensure that some day in the future they would have an opportunity to come play with the big boys.

[Charlie Darwin]

Rugby's problem is that the tradition of the 6 Nations is so marketable. Italy have undoubtedly added to the competition but the main draw is the four sides from these aisles, with France as sort of an exotic extra. They can't really tamper with the round robin format because the four B&I sides playing one another can't be messed with, so the only way they could really expand would be through some kind of messy promotion/relgation system as outlined above. A better short-term solution might be for NH teams to commit to one fixture a year against lower tier sides, so they can guarantee a couple of higher class fixtures in the way that Italy were before 2000 and Argentina have been until next year. I doubt either the NH or SH teams would agree to it easily though. They all operate on budgets that are dependent on regular tours against the same sides.

[BonnieShels]

Concur completely.

I think what I have outlined above is a fairly obvious solution. One extra game wouldn't kill Italy, Scotland or Wales a year! :P

[mypost]

Canada v NZ wasn't the cakewalk for the All Blacks it would have been 10 years ago.
This weekend is not coming quick enough.

I watched the full game, it was over in 10 minutes, and Canada lost by 60+ points. If that's not a cakewalk, what is?

Most of the games so far were walkovers, only a couple of shock results, and all the expected qualifiers sailed through, only having to play one difficult game.

Tbh, it's hard to see past New Zealand in a New Zealand WC. Even in their toughest games, they can destroy a team in a few minutes, especially at home.

[BonnieShels]

There was more to my sentence that I don't think you grasped.

[mypost]

Just look at Italy now compared to Italy in 2000 when they joined the then Five Nations.

There's not much difference. Italy have lost all 22 games against Ireland and England, another 10 against France, and most of the others. They're still pretty much a guaranteed 3 points and a points difference boost for everybody, unless you play muck.

[Real ale Madrid]

There's not much difference. Italy have lost all 22 games against Ireland and England, another 10 against France, and most of the others. They're still pretty much a guaranteed 3 points and a points difference boost for everybody, unless you play muck.

Its 2 points for a win in the six nations.

On the face of results, Italy, you might think have not made much progress, but looking at Italian rugby now compared to 10 years ago then I have to say there is a world of difference. Playing in a serious international competition has raised the profile of the game massively in Italy, added to that we now have 2 professional regional sides playing regular league rugby is going to bring it on further. On the pitch as well they are now a respected rugby nation – and while they have not got the wins they would have liked - going to Rome / Milan is now a serious game for any International side as Australia and New Zealand have found out in recent years, and the France game certainly showed what they are capable of. True some of the stats are ugly, but you have to look behind the stats – I reckon Italy will continue to improve.

[mypost]

Every team beats them unless they're a poor side or in one case this year, had an off day. When Italy come to Dublin next year, it'll be another mismatch and they'll lose by another 20/30-odd points. They serve little purpose in the 6N, except get hockeyed by better sides who have been playing the sport for nigh on 100 years.

As for the profile raise, I think most Italians prefer the beautiful game.

[bennocelt]

but they do get the odd win against the Scots and Welsh which is always amusing

[Real ale Madrid]

Every team beats them unless they're a poor side or in one case this year, had an off day

Well you are saying two things there:
1. You have to be a poor side to lose to Italy
2. Good teams have to play well to beat Italy
Contradictory statement I think.


When Italy come to Dublin next year, it'll be another mismatch and they'll lose by another 20/30-odd points. game.

Like the last 2 Six Nations meetings between the teams?
Italy 12-13 Ireland
Ireland 19-13 Italy
Don't see any mismatch there - were Ireland poor or just having an off day ?


They serve little purpose in the 6N, except get hockeyed by better sides

By that logic Scotland shouldn't be allowed compete either. Italy's 6N record in the last ten years was as good as Irelands in the 1990's - should they have kicked us out for a spell for "serving little purpose"?


As for the profile raise, I think most Italians prefer the beautiful game.

True - but does nothing to contradict the raised profile of the game due to top level competition, I didn't say it had a higher profile than other sports.

[legendz]

For someone who has talked a bit about pyramids, I'm not for this one! The 6 nations and tri-nations (now to be expanded to 4) are not part of a league system or anything like that, they are championships between certain nations. Tradition has to be respected. Marketability will have a say as well but generally that is influenced on wht the public want.
The ERC or IRB will have to find a different way for the lesser nations. The old 5 nations could accept one more team due to one team having a free weekend. The same has gone for the tri nations.
The European nations cup has a tiered structure. There is also a tiered structure in Asia. There has also been the development of the Pacific Nations. These nations have to find a different path. It's not a fob off, it's just nations have a championship amongst themselves and it has to be respected.
Regards options, would there be any possibility of a European Championship. The rugby calendar is packed. There are Lions tours every 4 years as well, that's another tradition of rugby.
In thinking of possibly ideas, I was mulling over the Davis Cup in tennis and it's format. Could there be a rugby version in Europe. There would be tiered groups of 4. It'd be knock-out based i.e. in Group I: England v France & Ireland v Wales, winner goes to Group I final. The two losers play in a third placed play-off with loser dropping to Group II. In Group II then Scotland v Romania & Italy v Georgia. Winners to final with winner going to Group II. Two losing semi-finalists in third placed play-off with loser dropping to Group III etc. This would only need two weekends and could be one game in May or June and the second game either in the same month or later in the year around the winter series, staged every second year, preferably even number years when there is no RWC or Lions tour.

[BonnieShels]

So, when Italy play well the other team has had an off day? Completely ridiculous talk.

[BonnieShels]

Legendz, instead of the bottom team of the 6N playing 1 more game against the best team in the ENC. You want to create a new competition modelled on the mental Davis Cup format and then shoehorn it into the packed schedule that exists?

BTW, the 6N is the European Championship. England are reigning Champions.

[mypost]

Well you are saying two things there:
1. You have to be a poor side to lose to Italy
2. Good teams have to play well to beat Italy
Contradictory statement I think.

I only said one, the first one.


Like the last 2 Six Nations meetings between the teams?
Italy 12-13 Ireland
Ireland 19-13 Italy
Don't see any mismatch there - were Ireland poor or just having an off day ?

How many times have we beaten them comprehensively in the past 11 years? How many away games have they won? How many titles have they contended for? How many WC 1/4F's have they made?

We won by 30 points last week. Australia beat them by almost the same in the tournament. Even on our "off days", we still beat them, home and away. England wallop them every year.


By that logic Scotland shouldn't be allowed compete either. Italy's 6N record in the last ten years was as good as Irelands in the 1990's - should they have kicked us out for a spell for "serving little purpose"?

It wasn't as good as Ireland's.

Scotland have a great history in rugby, they have won titles before, and they will be a force again in time. Italy have proved time and time again that they're not up to this level of rugby, and should be in with the Romanians and the Georgians.

[Real ale Madrid]

Ireland won 9 5N's games during the 90's . Italy won 7 games I'm thier first ten years in the competition. Not much difference. No calls for Ireland to be expelled either.

I didn't call for Scotland to be expelled, merely pointing out that via your logic, Scotland should be excluded based on thier results.

You keep replying to questions with more questions? Do you get a kick out of being negative? No one is saying Italy are top dogs. But surely you must accept that participation has been better than being left out in the cold in terms of thier rugby development?

[mypost]

Ireland won 9 5N's games during the 90's . Italy won 7 games I'm thier first ten years in the competition. Not much difference.

No calls for Ireland to be expelled either.

There was of course, one less game to play every year. Ireland have won Triple Crowns, Grand Slams, and Championships before. Italy have won nothing at club or international level, and will win nothing. Ireland beat them routinely every year, ergo Ireland>Italy.

No questions there.

[legendz]

Legendz, instead of the bottom team of the 6N playing 1 more game against the best team in the ENC. You want to create a new competition modelled on the mental Davis Cup format and then shoehorn it into the packed schedule that exists?

BTW, the 6N is the European Championship. England are reigning Champions.

I've nothing against the Davis Cup format. It works for having tiered groups and very few games. Space can be created for two weekends, use one weekend of the summer tests and another of the winter tests.
I'm not a supporter of the idea of promotion/relegation but asking around work with the rugby heads, there's a warm enough welcome to that suggestion or promotion/relegation so maybe it could be the way forward. Personally I'm not for it but that's just me.

[Real ale Madrid]

No questions there.

And no answers either, apart from underlying your assertion that results justify participation.

[legendz]

Just one final thing, if 6 nations winners are being given the title of European champion, there should be some promotion/relegation systems otherwise there would have to be a separate competition for determining the best team in Europe.

[BonnieShels]

Just one final thing, If 6 nations winners are being given the title of European champion, there should be some promotion/relegation systems otherwise their would have to be a separate competition for determining the best team in Europe.

Why would there HAVE to be? Because there is in Soccer?

The 6 Nations are clearly the 6 leading nations in the continent. The winners' of that competition are rightly considered the European Champions.