Rugby 2011

[Macy]

Fook Gatland and Edwards - Allez les blues.

[BonnieShels]

I concur.

[Stuttgart88]

Was listening to R5 Live at lunchtime today. Man, I love an England World Cup post mortem in any sport. I think Martin Johnson is the Stan of international rugby. Great servant & leader on the pitch, out of his depth as manager / coach.

I've nothing against Wales and am quite neutral on that side of the draw. I've always loved the French rugby idiosyncrasies and quite like Wales. May the better team win.

[mypost]

Argies giving NZ a run for their money so far.

33-10 Walkover. NZ the only group winners still remaining.

All set up for a repeat of the 1987 final, which madly enough, was also in NZ. With a similiar outcome.

[Macy]

I've nothing against Wales and am quite neutral on that side of the draw. I've always loved the French rugby idiosyncrasies and quite like Wales. May the better team win.
Wouldn't have anything particularly against the welsh (well maybe Andy Powell), just their coaching staff.

Argentina were unlucky (certainly no walkover!) - a fairer rub of the green in the first half who knows how the pressure would've got to the All Blacks. I would've rated Owens a few years ago, but he's really off form the last year or two including games in last years Celtic League.

[OwlsFan]

What's all this "the Welsh were much the better side". We actually dominated every phase of the game (possession, territory, yards made etc etc). Obviously we were behind on one stat that matters - the score.

There was one pivotal moment in the game. We got back to 10 all. The momentum was with us. Then there was a line out for us around the centre of the field and we lost it. The first line out we lost and Wales went on to score from that. The rest of the game was Wales' (they scored from another lost line out). I really believe that if we won that lineout we had a better than even chance of winning the game. Such are the fine margins between victory and defeat.

A comment on the anthems. I agree, there is no emotion for Ireland's call. It's just a song. It represents nothing. I pray to God that we have a great rendition of ours (please no bagpipes) on Tuesday. It sets the tone.

[Charlie Darwin]

Wales were much the better side in the same way we were much the better side against Australia despite the fact they spent more time around our try line.

[Macy]

A comment on the anthems. I agree, there is no emotion for Ireland's call. It's just a song. It represents nothing. I pray to God that we have a great rendition of ours (please no bagpipes) on Tuesday. It sets the tone.
I'm not a huge fan of Ireland's Call, but I still prefer an Ireland team to an ROI/NI split. The debate doesn't appear to be about using some other song (which would be my preference), but rather that we should force through Amhrán na bhFiann on players and supporters from a unionist background.

[Charlie Darwin]

The irony being that Amhran na bhFiann is an anti-imperialist song.

[Real ale Madrid]

What's all this "the Welsh were much the better side". We actually dominated every phase of the game (possession, territory, yards made etc etc). Obviously we were behind on one stat that matters - the score.


Which phases did we dominate ? Possession and territory were margnially in our favour, but we missed more tackles, lost more lineouts, conceded 3 penaltys at scrum time and conceeded more turnovers.

The more I think about it - the more I think the scoreline flattered us, Priestland kicked two penalties off the woodwork. Wales for me have improved beyond all recognition from the six nations, will be interesting to see how good they really are. A repeat of that against France would be good enough I think.

[mypost]

I'm not a huge fan of Ireland's Call, but I still prefer an Ireland team to an ROI/NI split. The debate doesn't appear to be about using some other song (which would be my preference), but rather that we should force through Amhrán na bhFiann on players and supporters from a unionist background.

You play for Ireland, listen to the Irish anthem. Don't like it, play for someone else if it's that important to them.

I'm sure Eoin Morgan doesn't like listening to the British anthem, but he chose to play for England, so has to put up with it. They're not going to change their anthem for him.

[gormacha]

The debate doesn't appear to be about using some other song (which would be my preference), but rather that we should force through Amhrán na bhFiann on players and supporters from a unionist background.

We force it on them when we play at the Aviva.

I am always amazed at the good grace of our northern brethren that they don't make more of an issue of this.

[gormacha]

You play for Ireland, listen to the Irish anthem. Don't like it, play for someone else if it's that important to them.

The Irish rugby team represents the entire island (which, whether you like it or not, includes, for the time being at least, another State), not the Republic of Ireland. The comparison with Eoin Morgan is completely inaccurate.

[BonnieShels]

Wow. Bravo guys. Great knicker twisting.

Eoin Morgan has chosen to play
for England and Wales and so be it. They are the only first class side in this part of the world and like Ed Joyce before him he had the talent (the b@stards) to step up to that level and long may that continue, whilst we don't have a test side. That the EwCB use GSTQ is irrelevant to this bizarre argument.

The IRFU as the organisation whose team represents rugby union on this island have a long stated anthem policy which Is remarkably admirable. When the team play abroad Ireland's Dirge is played. When we play in Dublin (or anywhere else in Connacht, Munster, Leinster, Donegal, Cavan or Monaghan), the Dirge and Amhran na bhFiann are played. When we play in Tyrone, Fermanagh, Derry, Antrim, Down or Armagh, the Dirge and GSTQ SHOULD be played. Unfortunately when we played in Ravenhill in 2007 they made a balls of it and relented on playing GSTQ.

I love AnbhF; I loathe GSTQ but I respect the traditions of all sectors of this great country. Sure, my own provenance gives me no choice but to!

Any talk about replacing the Dirge with something else which ignores the minority tradition on this island misses the point entirely.

[bennocelt]

Any talk about replacing the Dirge with something else which ignores the minority tradition on this island misses the point entirely.

Good points and agree:)
So I mentioned Danny Boy but that wasn't entirely popular, is there any other song that we could use that would be universally popular north and south?

[BonnieShels]

I think we need a thread in Current Affairs.

This is the Rygbi thread.

[OwlsFan]

Which phases did we dominate ? Possession and territory were margnially in our favour, but we missed more tackles, lost more lineouts, conceded 3 penaltys at scrum time and conceeded more turnovers. .

Possession Ireland 58% Wales 42%
Territory Ireland 62% Wales 38%
Tackes Ireland 100 Wales 150
Carries Ireland 136 Wales 95

[gormacha]

Possession Ireland 58% Wales 42%
Territory Ireland 62% Wales 38%
Tackes Ireland 100 Wales 150
Carries Ireland 136 Wales 95

But doesn't that go to show how stats can be misleading? Wales had all the penetration, and conversely, they also seemed in control when in defence, just as we did against Australia. We however looked toothless - O'Gara, O'Connell and O'Driscoll neutralised; Warburton dominating the breakdown; and wales winning the midfield and spoiling the lineout.

It reminded me of the 1991 Final, when England dominated possession and territory, but Australia won. Only the English afterwards felt they were robbed. I sense the same about us in this game.

[Stuttgart88]

Possession Ireland 58% Wales 42%
Territory Ireland 62% Wales 38%
Tackes Ireland 100 Wales 150
Carries Ireland 136 Wales 95
How do you think Sth Africa feel?

[BonnieShels]

So how do we feel about that tackle?

[BonnieShels]

Delighted with that French victory. Now, here's hoping for an antipodean victory in the final.

[bennocelt]

Jeez typical French, great against the English and bloody very lucky against the Welsh. Would have liked the Welsh to win but then I remember how much a vanker Gatland is.

[BonnieShels]

All about Gatland. Though the Welsh chip is second only to a Corknians' and ever so slightly ahead of the Aussie's. Delighted they're out.

[Stuttgart88]

Nah, I'm very disappointed for them. Harsh decision by Rollaind, but technically correct I understand.

I watched the game with Ramon Vega, in my second football celebrity incident in 8 days! I take my kids to tennis lessons on Sat mornings and his kid is in the same class. I was one of 4 dads watching the rugger in the clubhouse, he was one of the others. Funny guy actually, good sense of humour.

[Stuttgart88]

So how do we feel about that tackle?It looked like he was only intending to hit him hard, and he "found" the French guy in his arms rather than deliberately lifting him with a view to dropping him. He then looked to slam him down but late in the move eased off and looked to ease him down. Now all this happened in about a falf-second but I don't think it was a malicious incident, like the NZ job on BO'D a few yeras ago. What do you do if you have a 14-15 stone body in your hands with your feet not properly set? It's hard to do much other than what he did I reckon.

[Macy]

What do you do if you have a 14-15 stone body in your hands with your feet not properly set? It's hard to do much other than what he did I reckon.
He was set enough to be straight challenging for a turnover. He should've kept hold of him and dump tackled him.

I thought it was harsh enough that is was a sending off rather than a sin bin. However, it's clear that he followed the rules and IRB directives to the letter. Dropping him made it a dangerous tackle, IRB say that's a red card. Absolutely pathetic coverage of the incident on ITV - if RTE can pull out the relevant rules and directives, how come ITV can't when their show was on even longer? Instead they hung Rolland on the incident.

[BonnieShels]

That's why you just don't watch rugby on itv. Their coverage of all sports is sh1te.

Brent and Frankie were livid with Tom but the knowledge and ability of the RTÉ coverage is really something.

I don't think there was anything malicious with the tackle. But it was definitely dangerous.

[Aberdonian Stu]

I am livid with Frankie over his comments "He wasn't that injured" isn't the point. Indeed it's a dangerous comment to make. By Sheehan's estimation, and he maintained the injury as a factor in his subsequent points, Warburton would have had to injure Clerc for there to be a red card which is silly. Governing bodies don't legislate on the severity of injury, they do so to try and prevent situations where sever injures can occur.

As for this incident itself. The IRB rules are clear, intent is not a mitigating factor and it's a straight red. Better explanation here http://p.twimg.com/AbyShhqCQAI1G62.jpg:large

The responsibilities on those playing extends beyond intending to cause harm. Risking the safety of another player, in a situation where it is avoidable, has the same potential consequences irrespective of intent.

[geysir]

Wales could have done with O'Gara to get those few points.
It didn't have the feel of a semi final, lacked the class you'd associate with a semi final, especially Jones fluffing a doable conversion and bottling out of a (better than doing nothing) drop goal attempt.

I don't know the ins out of those type of spear tackles but that one seemed to tick all the boxes.
Letting a player drop to the ground with the full weight to land on his neck, is seriously dicing with a crippling injury.

I don´t know where this "he wasn't driven into the ground" comes from, wouldn't that be a 'stake tackle'? :)

[Charlie Darwin]

People seem to think a spear tackle involves driving somebody into the ground, possibly because of what happened to O'Driscoll in New Zealand. It's arguably more dangerous just to drop somebody as Warburton did (even though he did try to guide him down in the end). Definite red card.

[BonnieShels]

Can't get over Jones bottling it at the end. The back row were moving side to side in the ruck to set him up and he did nothing.

Where was the fear coming from. You're a point down in the 79th minute of a wc semi. Kick a bloody goal or at least try.

Frankie's comments were shocking and George took him to task for it.

[osarusan]

Can't get over Jones bottling it at the end. The back row were moving side to side in the ruck to set him up and he did nothing.

Where was the fear coming from. You're a point down in the 79th minute of a wc semi. Kick a bloody goal or at least try.

He doesn't have the distance for a drop goal from half way - he and the team know that.

[BonnieShels]

I know that. But it was the 79th minute. Did they think they were going to keep getting through the phases? Idiotic from the Welsh.

[Dodge]

No, what's idiotic is doing something knowing it'll fail

[BonnieShels]

How do you work that one out? It was the very end of the game. They weren't gaining territory and hadn't done for a few phases. They were going out of the world cup if they didn't score. It was the epitome of "nothing to lose". If he missed there was no loss as time was up anyway.

[Stuttgart88]

In fairness to ITV's commentator he quoted the rule, and once armed with that knowledge I could see why the ref gave a red. I don't think he set out to tackle him the way he did and I think he made an effort to ease the French guy's fall.

I think too many people make sentimental judgments rather than technical ones. They'd have all been cheering here if a French guy had seen red.

I still feel for Wales though.

[Stuttgart88]

Sorry - was responding to p19's posts!

I think Wales had to keep going through the phases either to get closer for the drop or to force the pen. France were very disciplined at the end. It'd have been pointless going for a drop from 45m if he doesn't have the range. He couldn't place kick from that distance in 2009, thankfully for us.

[BonnieShels]

But it was pointless to not bother as well, literally point less. They had gained no territory in 5 phases and it didn't look like the French were gonna cough up a penalty at that stage.

Stick Halpenny in the pocket if Jones had no balls.

[Macy]

He didn't have the distance that time. He bottled it earlier when they were up in the 22, when he knocked on. Thing about going through the phases, even not making ground, is to try and draw the penalty.

[geysir]

He doesn't have the distance for a drop goal from half way - he and the team know that.
Apart from missing the conversion, he bottled a drop goal attempt around the 70min mark
I thought Jones would have had a 35m drop goal attempt late on if he had set himself up to receive the ball when Wales were around the 25.
Maybe the Welsh team were correct not use him, but I would have thought this was bread&butter to such a player in such a position, to have the nerve and skill to give it an honest effort?

[Dodge]

How do you work that one out? It was the very end of the game. They weren't gaining territory and hadn't done for a few phases. They were going out of the world cup if they didn't score. It was the epitome of "nothing to lose". If he missed there was no loss as time was up anyway.

Except they still had the ball. He KNEW he would miss it.

He didn't know that a) walees couldn't break through or b) France weren't going to give a penalty. By not going for the drop he gave Wales 2 options. By going for the drop, he gae Wales ZERO options of winning

[osarusan]

Apart from missing the conversion, he bottled a drop goal attempt around the 70min mark
I thought Jones would have had a 35m drop goal attempt late on if he had set himself up to receive the ball when Wales were around the 25.
Maybe the Welsh team were correct not use him, but I would have thought this was bread&butter to such a player in such a position, to have the nerve and skill to give it an honest effort?Drop goals from half-way are very very rare indeed. Even scoring a penalty is by no means guaranteed.

On 70 mins they were dead in front of the posts, but Jones lost it in the tackle. They should have been setting up for a drop then, but were still looking for a penalty. I wouldn't say he bottled the drop attempt earlier - the French were up in an instant, so he had to switch to his left foot.

As Macy said, they were going through the phases looking for a penalty, or to get a break and make 15 yards to give them a drop chance, but the French defended very well and very intelligently - committed nobody at all to the breakdown apart from the tackler (who instantly released and rolled away), and maintained their line.

Also, watching it here in Japan, my english-language commentary comes from Kiwi TV, and atfer Warburton's comment, their analyst, Justin Marshall, instantly said, 'He's in trouble. I'm not talking yellow card trouble, I'm talking red card trouble.'

My own take on it was that Warburton mid-tacke that he was accidentally spear tackling the guy, and made the wrong decision. He let him go, but he needed to twist his body round so that he landed on his lower back/backside.

[Stuttgart88]

Paul Ackford in today's Sunday Telegraph saying the decision was 100% right, and anyone saying otherwise is letting emotion dominate knowledge of the laws.

[bennocelt]

NZ deserve to win the cup, only team from start to finish that played good rugby. Which France team will turn up for the final?

[geysir]

Drop goals from half-way are very very rare indeed. Even scoring a penalty is by no means guaranteed.

As I said, I thought he could have been set up to attempt a drop goal from 35m, as the ball was close enough to the 25 for a short time.

[geysir]

I really enjoyed that semi final. NZ v Australia has to be one of the greatest sporting international rivalries.

[Stuttgart88]

I thought it was a bit of a damp squib actually, only NZ's errant goal kicking preventing a rout.

NZ's new full back is one hell of a player - Dagg?

Some good comment on BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/15323153.stm) about Warburton including this memo (http://ht.ly/6Yd0Y) which seems to be the definitive IRB document on dangerous tackling.

[osarusan]

As I said, I thought he could have been set up to attempt a drop goal from 35m, as the ball was close enough to the 25 for a short time.

Yes, sorry, I mis-read your post.

On tonight's game - Australia just didn't have the guile to make their territory count in the first half. Beale being missing definitely hurt them, but he wasn't the reason their scrum was walloped in the 2nd half. Why they persisted in kicking deep all second half is beyond me.

[Macy]

Some good comment on BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/15323153.stm) about Warburton including this memo (http://ht.ly/6Yd0Y) which seems to be the definitive IRB document on dangerous tackling.
Some of the player tweets make them look like ignorant nobheads though, showing they don't know the rules.

btw any row back from the ITV boys, fessing up that Rolland was actually right and they were wrong? Dallaglio was particularly extreme, in calling for him to be dropped. He should in fact get the final, if the IRB have the balls...

[BonnieShels]

He had a terrible game for the NZ-France pool game.

That apart he has been his usual self. Just don't like the idea of him refereeing French matches.