Rugby 2011

[Stuttgart88]

Anyone hear Brian Moore's comment with the clock on 79+ minutes and France putting the ball into the scrum under their own posts?

"Ireland should collapse this scrum. You never know, the ref might give it".

Fair enough in my book, but earlier (and he has frequently done it in his newspaper columns) he put football down - "stop talking back to the ref, it's not football".

No big deal in ityself but I'm tired listening to the sanctimony of rugby union and its perceived holier than thou view on cheating. The All Blacks are rampant offenders, Harlequins' bloodgate affair was pathetic, I've seen plenty of players take quick penalties and run offline into an opponent who hasn't retreated to get him a yellow, and Moore's comments today were categorical proof that rugby players cynically play the ref too. If rugby players could gain advantage from pretending they were taken down, they would. I'm not saying they're as bad as (some / many) footballers - the spirit is generally much much better and they allow the ref to be in charge.

Anyway, it looks like our rugby and football teams are suffering from the same ailments. Conservative selections, players playing on reputations and lack of clinical edge. That game was there to be won but there were too many errors. We rode our luck big time at the end. BOD's grubber kick for the try was badly executed and we were lucky it rebounded of a French shin into an Irish hand. RO'G was dead luckly his missed kick for touch was knocked on and then played by an offside French player, winning us another 30 yards.

The press would have a field day tearing our footballers apart for similar errors.

[SwanVsDalton]

I think the French were just as guilty in the luck riding stakes. But I agree - no glory in another glorious failure. Yah, and I remember Brian riding around his high horse a few times, responding to the booing when Chabal came on with a 'shut up, it's not football' style comment.

[elroy]

Cant say im the most knowledgeable rugby fan, but what were most of the Irish pens for today?? Holding onto the player after the tackle, seemed to be the majority consenus. Was at the game and have to say Ireland have only themselves to blame. They were reasonably comfortable in the first half and only for conceding numerous needless pens would have had a comfortbable lead at half time.

In the second half the mistakes continued, I continued at least 6 knock ons in total. Line outs lost on their own throw, numerous missed tackles (particularly for their try), garryowens not dealt with (X3 in Luke F's case). And worst of all when Ireland had got themselves back in a chance to win the game, 3 points behind with 10 mins to play, they win a pen and a lineout just on the edge of the 22, a great platform for an attack, they lose the line out. Shocking and not good enough if you ask me. Perhaps im looking at the glass half empty but has there ever been a game against France where they threatened our line so little, we scored 3 tries to one and still lost.

[SwanVsDalton]

Absolutely we totally threw it away, and the high error count is quickly becoming the signature move of this team. Our ill-discipline is entirely of our own making - penalties were mostly not rolling away, but also playing the ball off of feet, joining ruck from side (think was against Rory Best and he was warned twice by the referee but didn't move, absolutely idiotic).

Fact is France made loads of errors too, they just made us pay for ours. D'Arcy's missed tackle and generally poor game should see him not start the next game. The malfunctioning line-out and ill-discipline will probably cost Rory Best too, that overthrow with five minutes to go summed up his afternoon. Fitzgerald dealt well with the high ball generally I thought, credit the French there Garryowen's and chases were generally excellent. The knock on's are bizarre though, it almost seems psychological at this point. And some of our decision making is poor too - like O'Leary's inexplicable kick into touch in the first half and Cronin's going for the try at the end instead of simply spreading the play out to the four or five outside for a certain touchdown. Just thinking about it is making me grind my teeth...

It's a shame because we played some lovely stuff and our commitment at the breakdown was fantastic. The forwards got through some work, but the ill-discipline has to get sorted out.

I'd bring in Cronin, Wallace, possibly Cullen and Reddan for Scotland - start spreading the experience around the squad pre-World Cup.

[elroy]

I think Id agree with your replacements, Tomas O'L despite his try was poor imo. His passing is too often too slow and too high. D'Arcy has had two particularly poor games in a row so you would expect a change there.

On Fitzgerald and the high ball, I fail to recall too many good takes, more so I recall two that was pretty horrendous. The French try arose from a spate of errors, we lost our own line out in their half, followed by Fitzgerald completely missing a high ball (to Rougerie I think) who broke through and then the missed tackle from D'Arcy. One of those errors are poor on their own but three in the same play is criminal and was punished so.

To finish on a positive, I dont think I have ever seen an Ireland team get so many scores from attacks on an opponents line. From four attacks on their line we got three tries, the one that failed was in the very last min.

[Charlie Darwin]

We still have that propensity to go for the killer pass every time - it almost seems to be a lack of awareness. If Australia or New Zealand had been presented with the ball like we were in the final minute, whatever player got on the ball would have got his head up and picked the correct pass instead of risking a pass at speed to Cronin.

[Schumi]

I remember Brian riding around his high horse a few times, responding to the booing when Chabal came on with a 'shut up, it's not football' style comment.Especially stupid as that was French fans shouting "Lupe". :rolleyes:

[Charlie Darwin]

Was it booing or was it more of an 'oooo'? In any case, Chabal loves it.

[shakermaker1982]

Gutted.

Penalties cost us again but what else is new? The one when Best was offside in the second half was the final straw for me. Drop him. Chokes whenever we've got a key lineout and he needs to go.

D'Arcy and O'Leary are in the same boat. O'Leary cannot box kick so why does he do it? Plus he seems to be getting slower when releasing the ball.... I'd consider bringing back the Stringer/O Gara partnership.

[Charlie Darwin]

I didn't think D'Arcy did anything wrong outside of the missed tackle. I think, realistically, we need to be able to drop players who make big errors so he should make way. If Bowe is back for Scotland, I'd be in favour of bringing McFadden in. I like Wallace but he gets injured too often at test level.

[shakermaker1982]

D'Arcy? Forward passes, offloaded to McFadden (who wasn't expecting it) when he should have took the ball to ground.

I'd bring Trimble or Earls to 13. Bowe will be back for the 14 slot (fingers crossed). I prefer Fitzgerald on the wing but don't think we have anybody at 15. How long is Kearney out for?

[Charlie Darwin]

McFadden's playing too well to be dropped in my opinion. Not convinced by Earls yet - not got the physical strength to play at centre for me.

[SwanVsDalton]

Kidney and O'Driscoll on yesterday's game and future selections. (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2011/0214/1224289738294.html)

Kidney says next weekend's Magners League fixtures will go some way to determining the team for Scotland.

O'Driscoll sums it all up when he says: “Guys have to go back and look at their individual performances, errors that were made. The more pressure that is put on guys who are in the starting 15 from other players . . . you are going to have to up your game or be replaced. They’re the blunt facts of the matter."

Absolutely right. And I hope that's followed through with a good bit of shake up in the coming games.

[OwlsFan]

Very frustrating game. Ireland score 3 tries to 1 and still lose - a sliced penalty kick by Sexton the difference between the teams. How that Rugby's version of Dunphy, George Hooke, could claim that France were the better team is beyond me. They only got close to scoring one other try (the kick in to the corner)

On the positive side, the scrum did not capitulate. The dropped passes were so frustrating.

Am I right in thinking that O'Connell never makes any ground when he takes a pass off a ruck? I can't even remotely claim to be an expert but he always seems to be brought down on the spot he began.

I think France targeted Ireland with the high balls in Kearney's absence and it worked - Fitzgerald only collected one cleanly if I recall.

Ireland had their chance at the end and fluffed it......through a dropped pass. Strange since this happened against Italy a lot.

Good game though.

[Charlie Darwin]

Very frustrating game. Ireland score 3 tries to 1 and still lose - a sliced penalty kick by Sexton the difference between the teams.
That was a conversion, wasn't it? So we'd still have lost by a point.


Am I right in thinking that O'Connell never makes any ground when he takes a pass off a ruck? I can't even remotely claim to be an expert but he always seems to be brought down on the spot he began.
It's an area of his game that's gotten worse, although in his defence he is just back from a long injury. It's because he's so tall and bulky - he finds it difficult to get his body low enough to break the tackle. O'Callaghan is better at it.

[OwlsFan]

There was a peno he missed - I thought it was that he sliced rather than the conversion but I might be wrong. With a one point game we might not have gone hell for leather in that last attack for the try and just gone for the dropped goal. Who knows. I'd say we'll be doing well to win one of the last three games.

[Schumi]

I'd say we'll be doing well to win one of the last three games.

Based on what I've seen, I'd certainly expect us to beat Scotland and have a very good chance against Wales.

[legendz]

I'm surprised Parra has been dropped by the French. There was no harm he is knocked down a peg he likes to think the French have more ambition at international level that Ireland. Hopefully we'll get to knock them out of the World Cup at some point.

[SwanVsDalton]

Ireland team to face Scotland (http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/sixnations/2011/0223/scotland_ireland_sixnations.html)

Three changes - Bowe, O'Gara and Reddan all back in. D'Arcy and Best are lucky, Wallace is still on the bench leaving us woefully short of back cover - again. It's unlikely he'll get any meaningful game time so what's the point? Don't know why McFadden isn't there tbh

[Mr A]

D'Arcy probably got away with it because Wallace made so little impact for Ulster last week. Trimble was pretty poor also so that probably explain his exclusion.

Best isn't brilliant but haven't seen anything from Cronin to suggest he's better.

[shakermaker1982]

I'd prefer to see Stringer start over Reddan (s l o w).

I'm expecting us to win our 3 remaining games.....

[Charlie Darwin]

I'm just relieved he didn't recall Tony Buckley. My heart skipped when he was recalled to the squad on Monday.

[SwanVsDalton]

Best isn't brilliant but haven't seen anything from Cronin to suggest he's better.

Both appear to struggle with their throws, but Cronin's a livewire in the loose and a real prospect. Think he should be given a better crack at competitive games, particularly if the guy in front of him is struggling.

[Stuttgart88]

We've got to win well today and cut out the 1990s-era errors that have become a feature. Otherwise I think it'd be fair to say that we are a team that makes mistakes consistently rather than a team that has played below par for a bit.

Do educated observers think that England were any great shakes yesterday? They were the better team but a penalty that hit the upright and missing the rugby equivalent of an open goal (French guy failing to collect the grubber kick over England's line) was all that separated the sides. Wales missed a hatful of chances by taking wrong options. This could be an easily achieved Slam for them unless we pull our socks up. (They've already beaten Scotland in the press).

I was listening to R5 Live yestetrday morning and one pundit already had England in the RWC Final.

General point: the number of times English players chased up-and-unders from an offside position without being penalised was unreal. I thought that this was one of the major areas of focus for referees this year.

[Schumi]

Do educated observers think that England were any great shakes yesterday?

Any team that can hold them up front will beat them fairly comfortably. We won't but South Africa, New Zealand or France playing well will. I think they'll lose to France in the quarter final but if they win that, they could make the final as New Zealand and South Africa are in the other half of the draw.

[shakermaker1982]

I thought England were very average yesterday, France looked clueless and I really don't know why they seem to freeze whenever they face England. Bizarre.

Would Ireland have beat France playing like that? No way, maybe that's a sign of England being able to beat good sides when not at the races and it's something this Kidney side need before the WC. It seems that whenever we get a big scalp then it means our players 1-15 have to be at their absolute best. I still fancy our chances of beating them in the final 6N game. We have the better backs and just need to make sure the set pieces are solid.

Kidney needs a good win today to silence some of the doubters (Leinster fans on the whole) but I fear we're going to try and slug it out with Scotland which will make it a close game.

Cut out the penalties and handling errors and I think this team could get to a semi final at the WC.

[Charlie Darwin]

France seem to have a mental bloke when it comes to England much as we have a mental block when it comes to France. They were much better this week than they were against us yet they consistently fluffed their lines, often under no pressure at all. I think we'll beat England because we're not scared of them but Wales away still looks tricky despite their poor form.

[Schumi]

France seem to have a mental bloke when it comes to England

They have Lievremont for all their games unfortunately for them.

[Charlie Darwin]

Haha wow. Freudian.

[Schumi]

Well that was terrible, Scotland were awful and we only barely won. 21-9 up and we fell apart, gave away more stupid penalties and completely panicked when Scotland got back within a score.

[SwanVsDalton]

We were a little bit panciky, but it was notable we didn't concede any more penalties and defended well. Agree other than that though - we should've been out of a sight and really punished a ropey Scotland.

[shakermaker1982]

Why did he take off ROG, Wallace and Reddan? They were going well.

How stupid is this team? Management are clearly not getting through to them so I think it's time players get dropped for stupid indiscipline. Not binding jerseys at scrum time, hands on the ball when the ref is looking right at you etc etc has to stop.

Christ I was in a bad mood after the game and we won!

[SwanVsDalton]

Yeah this kind of ill-discipline can't go on and players have to be punished if they keep pushing it. O'Callaghan, Best and a few others seem particularly prominent. I'm really not looking forward to England at Lansdowne.

[joeSoap]

England will beat us comfortably in the Aviva. I base this solely on their front 5 hammering the bejaysus out of ours and depriving us of ball, and giving Flood penalties he can kick blindfolded. We are too indisciplined and although its improving, our scrum is a shambles.

Does anyone else think that Sean Cronin vertainly isnt the boy wonder everybody thought he was going to be a year ago?

[shakermaker1982]

I hope your wrong Joe about our chances against England. I think our front 5 will 'man up' as they tend to do when they play England and the scrum won't be that much of an issue.

England are slow in midfield and not exactly pacy around the fringes. Tindall is a big bus and loves his crash ball but their play can be predictable. I don't rate their other centre either (New Zealand lad). This England side is not 2003 reincarnated as the English media seem to be suggesting. Flood can also get flaky when the pressure is on.

If we stop giving penalties away then we can beat most of the top sides. Keith Wood made a good point on the BBC that our players should just let the opposition have the ball now and again. We don't have to compete for every ball. Our defence has been excellent on the whole so why not bide our time until the opportunity presents itself for a turnover?

[Charlie Darwin]

England will beat us comfortably in the Aviva. I base this solely on their front 5 hammering the bejaysus out of ours and depriving us of ball, and giving Flood penalties he can kick blindfolded. We are too indisciplined and although its improving, our scrum is a shambles.

Does anyone else think that Sean Cronin vertainly isnt the boy wonder everybody thought he was going to be a year ago?
Our scrum was a shambles. Now it's solid and unspectacular. England have always and will always be stronger up front than us but that hasn't stopped them from losing 6 of the last 7 meetings.

Wood was completely right - our completed tackle rate was something like 96% yesterday. I think they did try to change in the second half - O'Connell in particular was driving over the ball rather than putting his hands on it - but overall we just haven't adapted. It's concerning when you see the likes of Heaslip giving away stupid penalties that he never would for Leinster. Kidney's continued inclusion of Leamy is just bizarre. He did make one steal on the ground but should have been in the sin-bin at the time.

[Schumi]

If we stop giving penalties away then we can beat most of the top sides.

Based on this:
We must look at the things we can control. We do contest the break down and make no apology for that. from Kidney, I don't like our chances.

[tetsujin1979]

Superb win for Italy there, and a massive setback for France ahead of the World Cup. Puts the Irish win in Italy into perspective.

[Crosby87]

So if Ireland beats Wales they are in the mix right?

[Cymro]

That ball boy is an absolute legend. :D

[old git]

So if Ireland beats Wales they are in the mix right?

so i take it they are now out of the mix !!!

[elroy]

Seems to be a degree of tension between the Irish team and the media of late, heightened more so by todays events. The substitution of O'Gara, the kick ball tactics.........looks like the Irish team are on course to implode just in time for the world cup again. With Australia in our group for the WC and the Italians developing nicely, getting out of the group is far from certain.........again.

[Stuttgart88]

That ball boy is an absolute legend. :DYep, game changing intervention. MOTM by a mile.

Funny, but my rugby mates were all on their high horses about how video technology minimises referee error, and footy has a long way to go to catch up.

The incident in Cardiff today rubbishes that notion. If an event can so easily be adjudicated upon by video intervention, why ignore it?

I believe Ireland suffered from incorrect video application vs WI in the cricket yesterday.

[Stuttgart88]

With Australia in our group for the WC and the Italians developing nicely, getting out of the group is far from certain.........again.True, but maybe I'm naively optimistic in thinking that with just a bit extra - which I think they could find - they'd be a 20% better team than now. Still lots of basic errors.

Sexton doesn't convince me at test level. What was Wallace thinking at the death? Lack of confidence in Sexton, or just an outrageously dumb decision to cut inside? That "try" would have been a delight to watch, handling of the highest quality before Wallace cut back in.

[SwanVsDalton]

Frustrating day, since Wales didn't look like getting a try until they nabbed one illegally. Still Ireland can only blame themselves for the awful kicking and some dreadful individual errors, like Wallace's cutting back inside at the death and Sexton's easy penalty miss.

Not convinced it'll happen but I'd really like to see Kidney go for a fresh approach next week - Fitzgerald isn't happening at full-back so replace him. Give McFadden a run instead of D'Arcy, maybe recall Trimble. At this point there's nothing to lose and a few of those guys could use a reminder of what they're playing for.

[shakermaker1982]

Where do you start after that utter shambles?

Fitzgerald should NEVER EVER play full back again.

Who told them to kick every time they had possession? Is that Gaffney or Kidney?

Where the hell has been Heaslip been this 6N?

[Kingdom]

Where do you start after that utter shambles?

[QUOTE]Fitzgerald should NEVER EVER play full back again.

Who told them to kick every time they had possession? Is that Gaffney or Kidney?
He's been dire. Earls has impressed me, and I'm told he's decent at full back too. They need a different option that's for sure.

Where the hell has been Heaslip been this 6N?
Twitter, by all accounts.

D'Arcy hasn't looked hectic and I'm told that McFadden deserves a run there. I try to take in as much as I can from the people who know better than me. I always feel we commit more people to protecting ball than our opponents do with no obvious difference? Is that fair or unfair?
How many places on the team are assured? Bowe? BOD? POC? Ferris when fit?

[Charlie Darwin]

I think Fitzgerald's gotten better in every game but he definitely needs to get back on the wing. I think he still offers more than Earls on the wing, though he has also been improving with every game.

Heaslip has been quite in games but I think that's because he's ceded ball-carrying duties to Sean O'Brien. He is still very visible for Leinster because Jennings isn't much of a ball-carrier, but Wallace takes up that responsibility for Ireland. He's still been brilliant off the back of the scrum.

I think McFadden has been shockingly hard done by. I just don't understand the decision to keep Paddy Wallace on the bench. Earls should be cover for 15, allowing McFadden to come in and play on the wing or in the centre if required. Even Trimble would offer speed and quick feet off the bench.

[Stuttgart88]

I think McFadden has been shockingly hard done by. I just don't understand the decision to keep Paddy Wallace on the bench. Earls should be cover for 15, allowing McFadden to come in and play on the wing or in the centre if required. Even Trimble would offer speed and quick feet off the bench.That's exactly what my better informed mates have been saying.

Every time the squad is announced I get a "Kidney out!" email from my mate saying that overlloking McFadden is a crime and that Kidney is too conservative.

I queried the latter contention, pointing to Trap's "conservatism" despite lots of (eventual) new caps and how teams do actually change. I cited Ross, Healy, O'Brien, Heaslip (I think), Sexton and a few others as being Kidney caps, rather than O'Sullivan legacies.

In fact Sexton kind of illustrates the dilemma facing a manager at test / international level. He looks the part at club level but to me he looks a bit phased by test level, his kicking being too eratic - and I was saying this before Wales.

I was really playing devil's advocate but I know from experience from watching the footy that there's usually a lot of clamour for new faces when maybe they're not yet justified.

[Charlie Darwin]

Kidney seems to be panicking now. Omitting Fitzgerald from the 22 entirely to accommodate Paddy Wallace on the bench again. Still no McFadden. England will be very pleased with that.

Ireland team (v England): Keith Earls (Thomond/Munster), Tommy Bowe (Ospreys), Brian O’Driscoll (UCD/Leinster) (capt), Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster), Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster), Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster), Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster), Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster), Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster), Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster), Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster), Paul O'Connell (Young Munster/Munster), Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster), David Wallace (Garryowen/Munster), Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)

Replacements: Sean Cronin (Buccaneers/Connacht), Tom Court (Malone/Ulster), Leo Cullen (Blackrock College/Leinster), Denis Leamy (Cork Constitution/Munster), Peter Stringer (Shannon/Munster), Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster), Paddy Wallace (Ballymena/Ulster)