Shane Duffy D Norwich b.1992

[ifk101]

By contrast, there are arguably fewer decent quality CB's ahead of him in the Senior ROI squad (not that he's remotely close to playing at that level for either team).

Your list of names (McLean - who???, Duff - Damien???, Cathcart - is he with AC Milan??, McAuley - sorry but once again who???) is scrapping the bottom of the quantity not quality barrel there EG. For instance we have plenty of Championship standard players in that position, namely; Paul McShane, Alex Bruce, Darren O'Dea, Paddy McCarthy, Gary Doherty, Damien Delaney, Eddie Nolan etc etc all of which are would be superstars in a NI jersey.


Anyhow, when it comes to "divided loyalties", I'm pleased that NW is treating him well

... surely that goes without saying :confused:


and that Duffy looks to be the sort to appreciate that and reciprocate. It may mean that he opts permanently for us.

However, if he should eventually throw in his lot with his father's country, then I would wish him well.

He's only a young lad that potentially can have a successful career in the professional game ahead of him. Best of luck to him.

[Drumcondra 69er]

Your list of names (McLean - who???, Duff - Damien???, Cathcart - is he with AC Milan??, McAuley - sorry but once again who???) is scrapping the bottom of the quantity not quality barrel there EG. For instance we have plenty of Championship standard players in that position, namely; Paul McShane, Alex Bruce, Darren O'Dea, Paddy McCarthy, Gary Doherty, Damien Delaney, Eddie Nolan etc etc all of which are would be superstars in a NI jersey.




Beat me to it.

[Gather round]

Nobody who plays in English Division 2 is a superstar, pretty much by definition. It's a second-rate league. Some players might have been in the past or become thus in the future, of course. No offence to the lists of NI and RoI internationals above.

Craig Cathcart plays for Manchester United, not Milan. Easy mistake to make. He was loaned to Plymouth Argyle last term.

[paul_oshea]

so he plays for Plymouth Argyle then.

[Gather round]

so he plays for Plymouth Argyle then

Yes, as I said. Strictly speaking, he's returned to ManU.

[Den Perry]

Your list of names (McLean - who???, Duff - Damien???, Cathcart - is he with AC Milan??, McAuley - sorry but once again who???) is scrapping the bottom of the quantity not quality barrel there EG. For instance we have plenty of Championship standard players in that position, namely; Paul McShane, Alex Bruce, Darren O'Dea, Paddy McCarthy, Gary Doherty, Damien Delaney, Eddie Nolan etc etc all of which are would be superstars in a NI jersey.



... surely that goes without saying :confused:



He's only a young lad that potentially can have a successful career in the professional game ahead of him. Best of luck to him.


add to that list Clifford Byrne

[EalingGreen]

Your list of names (McLean - who???, Duff - Damien???, Cathcart - is he with AC Milan??, McAuley - sorry but once again who???) is scrapping the bottom of the quantity not quality barrel there EG. For instance we have plenty of Championship standard players in that position, namely; Paul McShane, Alex Bruce, Darren O'Dea, Paddy McCarthy, Gary Doherty, Damien Delaney, Eddie Nolan etc etc all of which are would be superstars in a NI jersey.

The point I was making was that in ordinary circumstances, Duffy wouldn't have got anywhere near a senior start. That is because he is behind:
1. Aaron Hughes - EPL regular for over 10 years, nearly 70 caps;
2. Jonny Evans - I assume you've heard of him;
3. Stephen Craigan - Average club player, but Captain of Motherwell (3rd and 7th in SPL last two seasons) and a "Gary Breen" for NI (40 caps);
4. Gareth McAuley - Ipswich Town Captain, a dozen caps;
5. Michael Duff - Nearly 200 appearances for Burnley (usually CB, sometimes RB), a regular choice in team which won promotion to EPL - 20-odd caps;
6. Chris Baird - Can't get into Fulham defence (squad player), but Southampton's POTY when there, 30+ caps;
7. Brian McLean - Motherwell regular (injury permitting);
8. Craig Cathcart (20) - MU Young POTY, captained FIFA Europe U-18 XI vs African XI, season in Belgium at MU's feeder club, followed by last season at Plymouth, where he was Young POTY - exactly the same career path/age progress as Jonny Evans/Darron Gibson;
9. George McCartney - Regular EPL LB, who has also filled-in as CB (30-odd caps).

On top of that, there are at least 3 other CB's who play Lge1/Lge2, who while nowhere near good enough for international football, would nonetheless have been ahead of Duffy, had the Italy match counted for anything.

Generally, I'm not claiming any of the above to be Superstars (Evans will be, mind), I'm not even claiming that they are better than their ROI counterparts. But our players can't be that bad, otherwise how do you account for our results, which over the last 4-5 years have been consistently better than ROI's?

[livehead1]

1. Aaron Hughes - EPL regular for over 10 years, nearly 70 caps;
2. Jonny Evans - I assume you've heard of him;
3. Stephen Craigan - Average club player, but Captain of Motherwell (3rd and 7th in SPL last two seasons) and a "Gary Breen" for NI (40 caps);
4. Gareth McAuley - Ipswich Town Captain, a dozen caps;
5. Michael Duff - Nearly 200 appearances for Burnley (usually CB, sometimes RB), a regular choice in team which won promotion to EPL - 20-odd caps;
6. Chris Baird - Can't get into Fulham defence (squad player), but Southampton's POTY when there, 30+ caps;
7. Brian McLean - Motherwell regular (injury permitting);
8. Craig Cathcart (20) - MU Young POTY, captained FIFA Europe U-18 XI vs African XI, season in Belgium at MU's feeder club, followed by last season at Plymouth, where he was Young POTY - exactly the same career path/age progress as Jonny Evans/Darron Gibson;
9. George McCartney - Regular EPL LB, who has also filled-in as CB (30-odd caps).

1 - Good player
2 - Good player
3 - Don't compare him to Breen; Breen played in the EPL for years, Craigan wouldn't get a start at a top 6 championship club.
4 - Very average player.
5 - Lets see how he gets on next season; looks pretty decent though.
6 - Poor player, not good enough for the highest level of club football never mind international football.

I won't go on with the rest as they get worse.

[EalingGreen]

3 - Don't compare him [Craigan] to Breen; Breen played in the EPL for years, Craigan wouldn't get a start at a top 6 championship club.
I was not comparing (the superior) Breen directly with Craigan; rather I was citing Craigan as a player who, like GB, consistently "plays above himself" in a green shirt. Effectively it was a compliment to GB, a player I admire (though I could point out that he spent only a third of his career was with EPL clubs, all of whom - Coventry, WHU and Sunderland - were relegated during his time there)



4 - [McAuley] Very average player.
Perhaps, but as our 5th or 6th choice CB, he's still captaining one of the better Championship clubs, a level at which several ROI players have been capped, including most recently, (CB) Sean St. Ledger.



5 - [Duff] Lets see how he gets on next season; looks pretty decent though.
My point being that he can't get a game for NI at CB, despite that being his best position.



6 - Poor player, [B]not good enough for the highest level of club football never mind international football.
Your opinion, but he certainly looked OK to me in our victories over England, Spain, Denmark, Poland and Slovenia...




I won't go on with the rest as they get worse.Maybe so, but there's no getting away from the fact that McLean, our 7th or 8th choice CB, is an SPL regular - a level at which ROI players have been capped and McCartney is an established EPL FB, whom several managers have thought fit to fill in at CB.
As for Cathcart, his career at MU is spookily similar to that of Jonny Evans and Darron Gibson before him. However, when the same age/stage as Cathcart is now, Evans could only get games for NI at FB, and DG had already made his debut for ROI; whereas Cathcart has yet to get a senior NI cap.

And in any case, even if you think I am irredeemably biased (fair enough, btw ;)), there is no denying that all of those players are ahead of Duffy in the queue to play CB for NI.

Therefore, not only will Duffy not play in any of NI's 3 remaining WCQ's, but at 17, I cannot see him playing in any of our Qualifiers for Euro2012, either, unless something very exceptional happens.

In which case, his prospects of gaining senior caps for ROI anytime soon would be hardly any less, were he to switch (imo).

[RiffRaff]

I think some of the posters here are being a bit dismissive of NI. Over the last 5 years they have produced 7 or 8 performances / results that are better than anything we have done and have done it with a majority of players who are relatively unknown. I also think their underage system is working much much better than ours. I've heard of Cathcart as a highly rated youngster at Man U and long with the Evans brothers and Gibson, thats 4 players the NI underage system has produced that look like playing a part at the biggest club in the UK. Some of the other pleyers mentioned in this thread are no big names but have proved themselves more at international level than ours. i cant help think that Duffy may feel he has more chance of playing in a finals with NI than us. Maybe instead of trying to nick their players, the FAI should be trying to ask for some tips?

[ifk101]

Therefore, not only will Duffy not play in any of NI's 3 remaining WCQ's, but at 17, I cannot see him playing in any of our Qualifiers for Euro2012, either, unless something very exceptional happens.

In which case, his prospects of gaining senior caps for ROI anytime soon would be hardly any less, were he to switch (imo).

Considering he was part of a Northern Ireland squad that played a senior international against Italy a couple of weeks ago, he obviously is a lot closer to playing a senior international with Northern Ireland than with Ireland. Was he not togged out and sitting on the bench for that game - surely you can't get any closer than that to playing a senior international? He was also part of the NI B squad that played an international against Scotland a few months back. Whilst he may not start a senior international anytime soon, he clearly is in the thoughts of Nigel Worthlesston.


I am irredeemably biased

Excellent point and well made. ;).

[EalingGreen]

Considering he was part of a Northern Ireland squad that played a senior international against Italy a couple of weeks ago, he obviously is a lot closer to playing a senior international with Northern Ireland than with Ireland. Was he not togged out and sitting on the bench for that game - surely you can't get any closer than that to playing a senior international? He was also part of the NI B squad that played an international against Scotland a few months back. Whilst he may not start a senior international anytime soon, he clearly is in the thoughts of Nigel Worthlesston.

As far as I can tell, the highest level Duffy has played for NI is at U-19. That is, he hasn't even managed to get into our U-21 side.
Nor has he managed to get into our "B" team. Fyi, our last "B" International featured an experimental team vs Scotland in May, where our 2 CB's were Chris Casement (21 year old Wycombe loanee) and 22 y.o Rory McArdle of Rochdale.

The only reason Duffy got anywhere near the "Senior" team in Italy was because it was arranged so late that virtually ALL our senior squad were unavailable, so that we had just 3 senior outfield players available: Healy (carrying an injury, so didn't last the 1st half), Johnson (played out of position) and McCann (flew in on the morning of the game).
As it was, Duffy was the only one of 18 players who didn't get a run out. The 2 CB's were both debutants - Coates of Crusaders (carrying an injury, never featured for NI at any level before) and Casement (since released by Ipswich). When you consider the other novice kids who got caps in that game (8 debutants), it is crystal clear that Duffy was only brought along for the ride.
Consequently, and considering all the numerous CB's ahead of him, Duffy is nowhere near getting a senior NI cap in anything like normal circumstances.

Further, it was only because he is dual qualified that I mentioned in passing that he is as close to getting an ROI cap as an NI one i.e. not close at all.

However, if he should continue to progress over the next 3 to 4 years, such that he might begin to edge into consideration for a full cap, imo he might find it just as easy to get into the ROI team as the NI team, since Duffy's position is one where we are especially strong. I would not make a similar claim if he played in most other positions.

P.S. Iirc, there were a couple of players who got ROI caps on the US Tour two years ago, who never featured before or since. Don't recall all the names, but do you consider eg Joe Lapira to be still in contention for an international cap? Or would you put that down to exceptional circumstances, as I do Duffy's (non-playing) inclusion in the NI squad in Pisa?

[ifk101]

P.S. Iirc, there were a couple of players who got ROI caps on the US Tour two years ago, who never featured before or since. Don't recall all the names, but do you consider eg Joe Lapira to be still in contention for an international cap? Or would you put that down to exceptional circumstances, as I do Duffy's non-playing inclusion in the NI squad in Pisa?

It really depends on how you see it EG. On the one hand you have a team that has been handed a glamour friendly away to the reigning World Champions and on the other hand you have a team that going through the motions in an end of season tour on the other side of the World. Contrary to your opinion it wasn't in exceptional circumstances that Lapira was capped. Stan wanted to tie him to us in case he turned out to be a "player". As it is Joe Lapira is still going strong in the lower Norwegian leagues so you never know :D.

Anyways the fact remains that Duffy was on the bench against Italy so he obviously is nearer a senior cap for NI than he is with us. The rest of your post is idle assumption and speculation.

[EalingGreen]

It really depends on how you see it EG. On the one hand you have a team that has been handed a glamour friendly away to the reigning World Champions and on the other hand you have a team that going through the motions in an end of season tour on the other side of the World. Being "handed a glamour friendly away to the reigning World Champions" is one way of looking at it, but I suspect NW looked at it rather differently, since there is no doubt that he did not want this game.
In fact, the only reason it was staged (and v.late in the day, at that) is because:
1. Italy needed a warm-up for the Confed.Cup, plus a game against similar opposition to ROI for their WCQ's;
2. The IFA needed the £200k they pocketed, plus the promise of a money-spinning return in Belfast some time.
Therefore, in an attempt to make a virtue out of necessity, NW picked what was basically an U-21 team. The fact that he also included his only 3 available senior players, was to prevent a thrashing against what was essentially an Italy "B" team.


Contrary to your opinion it wasn't in exceptional circumstances that Lapira was capped. Stan wanted to tie him to us in case he turned out to be a "player". As it is Joe Lapira is still going strong in the lower Norwegian leagues so you never know :D. He might have a cap or two, but we both know that Lapira is barely more of an international class player than I am!
And the "exceptional circumstances" of his getting capped was that he was selected by a man who was completely out of his depth. (Unless, of course, you consider Stan to have been "an international manager"? ;))


Anyways the fact remains that Duffy was on the bench against Italy so he obviously is nearer a senior cap for NI than he is with us. The rest of your post is idle assumption and speculation.OK, simple question:
If Duffy is that "near" to becoming an NI international, how do you explain the fact that he still hasn't got into our U-21 team, never mind our "B" team, even when those teams are fielding experimental line-ups in low-key friendlies?

The fact remains that despite (his non-selection in) Pisa, Duffy is nowhere near getting a full cap for NI (or ROI).

Beyond that, the best one can say is that NW seemingly thinks he may have the potential to develop to international class (for us, at least) some time in future.

In which case, he is giving him as much experience as possible, partly perhaps to discourage him from opting for ROI?

[youngirish]

Generally, I'm not claiming any of the above to be Superstars (Evans will be, mind), I'm not even claiming that they are better than their ROI counterparts. But our players can't be that bad, otherwise how do you account for our results, which over the last 4-5 years have been consistently better than ROI's?
Are you seriously claiming that for 4-5 years NI's results have been better than ours? If you believe that EG you really are deluded. Does this 4-5 years include the time we missed out on World Cup qualification by a single point and you finished with a measley 9 points from 10 games and third last in a group containing Wales and Azerbaijan? Grow up. it's arguable you were even better when we had that clown Stan in charge. Yes you had a couple of decent results but you also got hammered by Iceland twice and were beaten by Latvia.

We have also been infinitely better than you under Trapattoni who has been in charge for nearly 18 months now. Where are you getting this 4-5 years from again or are you now just using the rankings which change very month (weren't we ahead of you for a long time up until recently anyway?) rankings that you have stated before you don't lend much credence to.

Grow up.

[Gather round]

it's arguable you were even better when we had that clown Stan in charge. Yes you had a couple of decent results but also got hammered by Iceland twice and were beaten by Latvia

We got three more points over a 12 game league, so yes I think we were better in the last completed series (Euro 08). I mean, what better/ other test is there?


We have also been infinitely better than you under Trapattoni who has been in charge for nearly 18 months now so. You really are clueless and know nothing about football

Both teams have 13 points from seven matches. Hardly suggestive of one being "infinitely better".

[youngirish]

We got three more points over a 12 game league, so yes I think we were better in the last completed series (Euro 08). I mean, what better/ other test is there?

And this qualification series lasted 4-5 years did it?



Both teams have 13 points from seven matches. Hardly suggestive of one being "infintely better".
Your friendly results have been dire in that time and all your difficult games have still to come so don't get your hopes up too much. You've played San Marino twice, not quite the same as taking 6 points of Georgia imo. I'd be surprised if you get more than a single point from your remaining games. 3 at the most.

The bottom line is your results have not been consistently better than ours over a 4 - 5 year period or anything like it. You've had a brief spell of about a year when we had someone retarded in charge of our national team when you had a couple of good results against decent opposition but overall you finished about as far from qualifying as we did. Personally I wouldn't let it go to my head.

[gspain]

And this qualification series lasted 4-5 years did it?


The bottom line is your results have not been consistently better than ours over a 4 - 5 year period or anything like it. You've had a brief spell of about a year when we had someone retarded in charge of our national team when you had a couple of good results against decent opposition but overall you finished about as far from qualifying as we did. Personally I wouldn't let it go to my head.

Your reference to one of our former managers is offensive.

I don't think Northern Ireland have been better than us over the past 4-5 years but unfortunately the FIFA rankings suggest otherwise. They have actually managed to beat decent opposition in the period incl England, Spain, Sweden and Denmark. They have also lost to Latvia and Iceland.

We have imo a better chance of making the playoffs and consequently a better chance of going to the world cup. I think that would be the time to make such claims. Maybe after we beat them in the last football match ever in Croke Park to qualify for south Africa would be a good time to gloat. :D

[youngirish]

Your reference to one of our former managers is offensive.

I wholeheartedly apologise to all the retarded people out there for comparing them unfavourably with our ex manager. I'm sorry.



I don't think Northern Ireland have been better than us over the past 4-5 years but unfortunately the FIFA rankings suggest otherwise. They have actually managed to beat decent opposition in the period incl England, Spain, Sweden and Denmark. They have also lost to Latvia and Iceland.

As I stated earlier nearly all those results were in a period of 12 months not 4-5 years.

[ifk101]

NW picked what was basically an U-21 team. The fact that he also included his only 3 available senior players, was to prevent a thrashing against what was essentially an Italy "B" team.

Well good for NW. Didn't stop the thrashing though :D.


He might have a cap or two, but we both know that Lapira is barely more of an international class player than I am!
And the "exceptional circumstances" of his getting capped was that he was selected by a man who was completely out of his depth. (Unless, of course, you consider Stan to have been "an international manager"?)

Joe Lapira is currently playing at a higher level than certain players that have been capped in the very recent past by NI - so he's easily good enough for NI.
As for Stan, and as I pointed out to you before, Stan's competitive record is better than Worthlesston's. Stan was clearly out of his depth but so is Worthlesston. Long may Nigel's reign continue ;). But the one good thing that came out of Stan's reign was that the pressure was on the FAI to appoint somebody who knew what he was doing. And in fairness they delivered on that. So if we get to SA we can look back on Stan's reign with fondness. :D


OK, simple question:
If Duffy is that "near" to becoming an NI international, how do you explain the fact that he still hasn't got into our U-21 team, never mind our "B" team, even when those teams are fielding experimental line-ups in low-key friendlies?

Was he not sitting on the bench for a senior international game against Italy?


The fact remains that despite (his non-selection in) Pisa, Duffy is nowhere near getting a full cap for NI (or ROI).

No that's your opinion. Fact is that he was sitting on the bench for the Italy game and therefore could easily have played if NW chose to play him.


Beyond that, the best one can say is that NW seemingly thinks he may have the potential to develop to international class (for us, at least) some time in future.

In which case, he is giving him as much experience as possible, partly perhaps to discourage him from opting for ROI?

Well he's obviously good enough now to make the NI senior squad. Whether he will one day be good enough for us is an entirely different matter altogether. But best of luck to the chap.

[Gather round]

And this qualification series lasted 4-5 years did it?

I didn't claim it did. The clue's in the name 'Euro 08'.


Your friendly results have been dire in that time

No-one would claim they were great, but we did thrash Georgia, beat Finland away and draw in Scotland in between the poorer performances


and all your difficult games have still to come so don't get your hopes up too much

I haven't- I simply pointed out that, in this tournament to date, our overall standard is almost identical to yours. Not infinitely different, as you claimed.


You've played San Marino twice, not quite the same as taking 6 points of Georgia imo

Yes, San Marino are the weakest team in Europe so clearly a bonus for us. But otherwise, we're matching you because in this tournament- like the last- we've won most of our home games (eight of the last nine).


I'd be surprised if you get more than a single point from your remaining games. 3 at the most

We'd be favorite to beat Slovakia, given that home record. But yes, we probably need to win an away game to finish in the top two.


The bottom line is your results have not been consistently better than ours over a 4 - 5 year period or anything like it

Yes, like I said it's a three year period. During which we've beaten you in one tournament and are matching in another. No need to keep mentioning the 4-5 years to me.


You've had a brief spell of about a year when we had someone retarded in charge of our national team

Charming, but irrelevant. Unless you're suggesting that there's a handicap system after choosing the wrong coach.


when you had a couple of good results against decent opposition but overall you finished about as far from qualifying as we did

You finished 10 points behind the runner up, we were only six. In a 12 game league that's significant.


Personally I wouldn't let it go to my head

I haven't.

[gspain]

I wholeheartedly apologise to all the retarded people out there for comparing them unfavourably with our ex manager. I'm sorry.


As I stated earlier nearly all those results were in a period of 12 months not 4-5 years.

England 2005
Spain 2006
Sweden and Denmark 2007.

Even allowing for Poland 2009 which I left out, it is hardly a period of 12 months.

I assume the ex manager you refer to is the one who earned 102 caps for his country and played in 3 world cups. He was way out of his depth as a manager but there is no need to get offensive to him and others.

[Gather round]

I don't think Northern Ireland have been better than us over the past 4-5 years but unfortunately the FIFA rankings suggest otherwise. They have actually managed to beat decent opposition in the period incl England, Spain, Sweden and Denmark. They have also lost to Latvia and Iceland

I prefer actual qualifying record over 10 or 12 games, to FIFA rankings which can distort the effect of individual matches.


We have imo a better chance of making the playoffs and consequently a better chance of going to the world cup. I think that would be the time to make such claims

Indeed. Generally speaking, I think you only need the rankings at the end of each qualifying series, to determine seedings for the next one.


Stan's competitive record is better than Worthlesston's. Stan was clearly out of his depth but so is Worthlesston. Long may Nigel's reign continue ;)

NW continues to get plenty of similar criticism from some NI fans, but to be fair he's beaten Denmark, Poland and Slovenia and managed decent draws with Sweden and Czechia. I can't see how that's clearly out of his depth. He's managing a small country team which doesn't normally qualify, not Brazil or Italy.

Qualifying records:

Staunton 12-4-5-3-17

Worthington 13-6-2-5-20

[Drumcondra 69er]

Charming, but irrelevant. Unless you're suggesting that there's a handicap system after choosing the wrong coach.




Was that turn of phrase intentional given Youngirish's description of Stan?? ;)

[youngirish]

England 2005
Spain 2006
Sweden and Denmark 2007.

Even allowing for Poland 2009 which I left out, it is hardly a period of 12 months.

I assume the ex manager you refer to is the one who earned 102 caps for his country and played in 3 world cups. He was way out of his depth as a manager but there is no need to get offensive to him and others.
I'll refrain from the use of this word from now on then if people find it that offensive. Surely there are more deserving causes to devote your energies to though than sticking up for the likes of Steve Staunton.

Personally, however, I have little sympathy for Stan and feel he deserves little credit from Irish fans for his refusal to do the decent thing and forego his multi mllion euro payoff and admit he was out of his depth. It must have been clear to him long before he was dismissed that the fans wanted him out. It's not like he needed this money which could have been used to much better effect elsewhere in the FAI.

If he loved his country as much as people on here seem to suggest he'd have walked before being pushed. If I was as wealthy as he undoubtedly is I'd walk away in a heartbeat if I thought I was doing more harm than good to the Irish team. he instead hung on for dear life for his millions and dragged us deeper into the ditch we are only now beginning to crawl out of.

[Gather round]

Was that turn of phrase intentional given Youngirish's description of Stan?? ;)

No offence intended, it was unintentional.

[EalingGreen]

Are you seriously claiming that for 4-5 years NI's results have been better than ours?
Grow up.That is exactly what I am claiming. Here is why.

FIFA Rankings:
Now one could argue all night over the merit of, say, a victory over Gabon as against that of one over Albania, similarly the relative merits eg of friendlies as against competitive games etc.
Nonetheless, when it comes to determining the overall trend between two teams in the same Confederation, over the course of nearly 50 games, then the Rankings give a reliable general picture.
In Jan 2004, NI were 124 in the FIFA Rankings, with ROI at 14.
By June 2009, whilst ROI had dropped 20 places (to 34th), NI had risen 97 places to overtake them (27th).
There can be no other credible explanation for such a relative disparity in performances than that NI's results were consistently better than ROI's over the period - especially seeing as they are worked out with a 48 month assessment period (i.e. it took us to the end of 2007 to work out completely a series of poor results prior to 2004)

Qualification
In the Euro08 Qualifiers, we were still in contention up until the final game, eventually finishing with 20 points in a tough Group. (This was after our previous poor form had caused us to be Seeded in Pot 6 for these purposes)
By contrast, ROI were Seeded 3rd (2nd?) in a much easier Group, yet were out of contention with three games to go, eventually finishing with just 17 points.
And for WC2010, we are currently in 2nd place in a Group which has 5 teams in serious contention, whereas ROI are 2nd in a Group which effectively is "two from three to qualify".

Seeding
During the period in question, NI have risen from being UEFA 6th Seeds to being 3rd Seeds (currently according to "Edgar" just in the 2nd Pot, though I doubt it will last). I'm not sure what ROI's seedings were around 2005 (3rd? 2nd?), but they are still in the 3rd Pot.

Performances
We can argue all night whether eg a 5-2 defeat by Cyprus is better/worse than a 3-0 defeat by Iceland - each side has its share of embarrassments etc.
However, only one team has notable victories to be proud of. Namely, in the last 4 years, NI has secured competitive wins over England, Spain, Sweden, Denmark, Poland and Slovenia.
When was the last time ROI beat a decent ranking team in a competitive match? :eek:

Now I'm not claiming that this is going to last, since these things tend to come in cyles. And I am well aware that our present "up-cycle" has coincided with a mini "down-cycle" for ROI.

But two things strike me about your post (and those of certain others), namely that your (unsupportable) disparagement of the NI team in recent years is the direct converse of your (inflated) opinion of the ROI team.

So before advising me to "grow up", you might first have been advised to take a look in the mirror and ask yourself why your name is "Young Irish"...;)

[ifk101]

Performances
We can argue all night whether eg a 5-2 defeat by Cyprus is better/worse than a 3-0 defeat by Iceland - each side has its share of embarrassments etc.
However, only one team has notable victories to be proud of. Namely, in the last 4 years, NI has secured competitive wins over England, Spain, Sweden, Denmark, Poland and Slovenia.
When was the last time ROI beat a decent ranking team in a competitive match? :eek:

You can take pride in one-off results against high ranking teams but if those results don't ultimately lead to qualification, they don't matter. For example, beating Spain at home and then losing away to Spain just cancels out the impact that home win had.

Qualification demands a consistent level of results which NI can't produce - for example, the win against Spain is offset by home and away defeats against teams like Iceland. It's good that you take pride in those victories though EG ;) but I think it just highlights the difference in aspiration levels between the two teams.

[EalingGreen]

You can take pride in one-off results against high ranking teams but if those results don't ultimately lead to qualification, they don't matter.
Excuse me, but you haven't qualified* during the period in question, either!

Anyhow, the debate was which of the two teams results were better during the last five years. I argued that it was NI, based on a number of criteria. Included in these were Ranking, Qualification and Seeding, which I note you've (conveniently) ignored.

Which in any case is where those victories came in. Namely, a 2-1 competitive win over Sweden counts for more in the Rankings than a friendly 4-0 victory. Also, if a team is to qualify, it is not enough merely to beat the lesser teams every time, but it is also essential to gain the odd victory over the top teams.
And even if NI haven't always managed both, the former is a hell of a sight easier than the latter, which is why we came reasonably close to qualifying for Euro08, whereas ROI were never in the running.

P.S. I'm still waiting for someone to remind me when was the last time ROI beat a decent rated team in a competitive game...



* - Or did I miss something? :eek:

[youngirish]

But two things strike me about your post (and those of certain others), namely that your (unsupportable) disparagement of the NI team in recent years is the direct converse of your (inflated) opinion of the ROI team.

Your whole argument is based on a very small number of decent home results . NI still finished nowhere in the shake up for qualification for Euro 2008 and as I mentioned in your previous attempt at qualification for WC 2006 (within that 4-5 year period) you were absolutely dreadful. 1 or 2 decent results count for nothing in international football. You need consistent performances throughout the whole of qualification. Who cares if you beat Spain but then undo that good work with a terrible result against Iceland or Latvia in the next game? It means nothing. It's your final points total and placing at the end of qualification that matters in which case you got 3 more in the last qualification.

To sum up I don't think ROI are a particularly good team as can be easily determined by looking through any of my previous posts regarding our team but we are way better than Northern Ireland and have been for every year in the past 2 decades minus a very dark spell in our history for a 12 month period under Stan when we were both at a similar level.

Add both teams points totals for the two last qualification campaigns within that 4-5 year period you mentioned and you'll see who has been consistently better and then stand in the corner and hang your head in shame for talking orange tinted biased drivel as per usual.

P.S. See Wales and Slovakia that have both beaten you within that 5 year period? Did you know we have beaten both within that same period?

[EalingGreen]

Your whole argument is based on a very small number of decent home results.Utter Bull. I relied on the FIFA Rankings (plus Qualification and Seeding), which over the period in question (2004-2009) comprise nearly 50 games for each team i.e. wins, draws and losses, home and away.


then stand in the corner and hang your head in shame for talking orange tinted biased drivel as per usual.First you insult the mentally handicapped with your "retarded" remark, now you attempt to insult me with a disgraceful sectarian epithet.

Shame indeed...:mad:

[ifk101]

P.S. I'm still waiting for someone to remind me when was the last time ROI beat a decent rated team in a competitive game...

I don't know. You tell me. :rolleyes:


* - Or did I miss something? :eek:

Yes - Shane Duffy is the topic of discussion. ;) But to elaborate, the goal for all teams is to get to a European Championships or a World Cup. If a qualification campaign doesn't ultimately end in the achievement of this goal - it has been a failure (but obviously certain teams take pride in an odd victory here and there). Comparing the performance of two teams that haven't qualify for anything in the last so many years is a pointless exercise and will just turn this thread into a slagging match. But I suppose that's what you want, youngirish has made his appearance, and the thread will now be locked ....

[youngirish]

Utter Bull. I relied on the FIFA Rankings (plus Qualification and Seeding), which over the period in question (2004-2009) comprise nearly 50 games for each team i.e. wins, draws and losses, home and away.

We were higher than you in those rankings for about 4 of those 5 years and have been again up until recently so what's your point? So does our consistency over a 5 year period change on a month to month basis when and only when FIFA release their rankings even if we haven't played anyone in the meantime? Haven't you before claimed the rankings are a dubious way to compare the merits of 2 teams on numerous occasions but I suppose it wasn't in your interest to promote their validity at that point. Btw our seedings are the same.



First you insult the mentally handicapped with your "retarded" remark, now you attempt to insult me with a disgraceful sectarian epithet.

Shame indeed...:mad:

I've already apologised to retarded people the world over. To say someone's view is orange tinted is of course sectarian slander of the highest magnitude (I've stated as such before and you haven't complained, looking for me to be banned I take it because I've picked holes in your worthless point of view?). How have you never been banned considering you manage to turn most threads into pointless NI are better than the ROI breakaway team with your snide comments and whimsical claims.

The bullsh*t you come on here spouting on a regular basis with your clear anti-ROI agenda is the real sectarian bigotry.

[Gather round]

NI still finished nowhere in the shake up for qualification for Euro 2008...Its your final points total and placing at the end of qualification that matters in which case you got 3 more in the last qualification

Really depends what you mean by 'finished nowhere'. I reckon staying in contention until half-time in the 12th game is rather better than that.


To sum up I don't think ROI are a particularly good team...but we are way better than Northern Ireland and have been for every year in the past 2 decades minus a very dark spell in our history for a 12 months period under Stan when we were both at a similar level

But you just aren't way better in WC 2010, as you weren't in Euro 08. I can see that you think the FIFA rankings can be distorting to the point of absurdity (I agree), and that you may regard much of the above as a wind-up, but over the last three years the rankings are fair enough.


hang your head in shame for talking orange tinted biased drivel as per usual

What's orange about it?

[Drumcondra 69er]

No offence intended, it was unintentional.

None taken hence the wink! Was going to post a laugh but thought it might have been inappropriate!

[tetsujin1979]

So, is Shane Duffy going to play for us or not?

[Drumcondra 69er]

So, is Shane Duffy going to play for us or not?

Maybe he's trying to work out who's results have been better over the last 4/5 years before making a commitment?

Anyone got any idea?

[EalingGreen]

Yes - Shane Duffy is the topic of discussion. ;)

Comparing the performance of two teams that haven't qualify for anything in the last so many years is a pointless exercise and will just turn this thread into a slagging match.Although it has moved some way of the direct point, the thread has gone from Shane Duffy, to SD being eligible for both countries, to his likelihood of getting picked by either, to which of the two teams is the "better".
As threads go, I actually think this one has a more logical rationale than most!


But I suppose that's what you want, No, what I want (as a fan) is to defend my team when I consider it to be getting unfairly slagged off.
I thought that that was how these fans' forums tended to work...


youngirish has made his appearance, and the thread will now be locked ....Then why don't you take that up with YI (or the Mods) since he is the one who has made the contentious and insulting remarks?
Meanwhile, I will answer for the propriety or otherwise of any of my posts you care to cite.

[EalingGreen]

We were higher than you in those rankings for about 4 of those 5 years and have been again up until recently so what's your point? So does our consistency over a 5 year period change on a month to month basis when and only when FIFA release their rankings even if we haven't played anyone in the meantime?My point is that with an evaluation period of four years, the likes of eg Iceland could not overtake Spain if they were to win all their games for the next year or two and Spain were to lose all theirs.
Which is precisely why ROI were ahead of NI in the rankings for most of the last 5 1/2 years, despite NI gaining considerably more points over the course of nearly 50 games than ROI.
Despite that, that greater points haul also explains why we are currently higher in the Rankings than ROI.
And in case you still haven't twigged how this (not-so-very-difficult) process works, points come from winning and drawing matches, and the best teams win and draw the most matches - QED.


I've already apologised to retarded people the world over.Good for you. Mind you, it might have been better to have thought before posting in the first place...:rolleyes:



To say someone's view is orange tinted is of course secterian slander of the highest magnitude.No, it is introducing an entirely unnecessary and provocative element to a reasonable debate which was proceeding nicely, without offence being either given or taken, until your intervention.


(I've stated as such before and you haven't complained, looking for me to be banned I take it because I've picked holes in your worthless point of view?).If I wanted you banned, I'd complain to Mods. I have not done so, nor never would - both because "no-one likes a sneak", but also because leaving your posts up for all to see invariably validates my point, rather than yours.



How have you never been bannedActually, like almost everything else, you're wrong about that, too, since I was once given a brief ban soon after I began posting here.
However, having learned my lesson*, I have resolved to stay within the spirit and the letter of the Rules.

* - About the stricter Moderation on this Board than others I was used to


considering you manage to turn most threads into pointless NI are better than the ROI breakaway team with your snide comments and whimsical claims.This thread is about Shane Duffy, a player who is qualified to represent both teams. It is hardly off-topic for the discussion to revert to which team he might choose, more specifically, which would be the "better" choice for him (from a career pov).
The concensus here being that "ROI is best", I have merely offered my opinion that whilst the NI team has performed better over the last 4-5 years, due to Duffy being a CB, he might actually find it easier to get into the ROI team, seeing as CB is our strongest position.


The bullsh*t you come on here spouting on a regular basis with your clear anti ROI agenda is the real secterian bigotry.You were the one who introduced an entirely uninvited sectarian tone into this thread, yet you accuse me of being the sectarian bigot.

Hell, you can't even spell the bloody word...:rolleyes:

[youngirish]

Hell, you can't even spell the bloody word...:rolleyes:
I corrected this mistake ages ago just after I posted the initial message in fact - keep up. I often make such mistakes because unlike you I don't spend an hour writing a reply, a point that's proven when you continued to quote a post I changed 70 minutes after I corrected the initial mistake.

This is an internet forum, it's not a spelling contest.



The concensus here being that "ROI is best", I have merely offered my opinion that whilst the NI team has performed better over the last 4-5 years, due to Duffy being a CB, he might actually find it easier to get into the ROI team, seeing as CB is our strongest position.


I've already pointed out why you haven't been consistently better for anything like 5 years. Again keep up. If you think the likes of Aaron Hughes is a better player than O'Shea, Dunne or St Ledger then you truly are as clueless as your posts seem to imply you to be.

P.S. Btw it's spelt consensus smartar*e.

[EalingGreen]

I've already pointed out why you haven't been consistently better for anything like 5 years.
No, you haven't "pointed out" anything. Rather, you have expressed a contrary opinion to mine. I will leave it to others to decide for themselves which opinion has been the better argued.


If you think the likes of Aaron Hughes is a better player than O'Shea, Dunne or St Ledger then you truly are as clueless as your posts seem to imply you to be.I have never argued any such thing, merely that I believe NI to have at least as much strength in depth at CB as ROI.

But for the record, if you want my opinion on the relative merits of Aaron H versus those three, here it is.
Richard Dunne - Excellent CB, a cut above AH;

John O'Shea - Excellent FB, esp this season, for both club and country. However, I'm not so sure about him as a CB, especially since Ferguson has regularly preferred the much less experienced Jonny Evans to JOS whenever Vidic or Ferdinand has been injured. Also, until recently, JOS hasn't been the most popular player amongst ROI fans, whereas AH has always been a "main man" for us. And AH has been a virtual "ever present" at CB in a Fulham defence which was the fourth meanest in the EPL, and the mainstay of their finishing 7th.

Sean St. Ledger - Looks a prospect and seemed to play well in the 1st half vs Bulgaria (didn't see 2nd half). But if you are seriously saying you rate someone who has two caps, and who has never played in the top flight, over someone who has nearly 70 caps (c.50 of them as Captain), and who has played his entire club career of over 400 games for Newcastle (inc. Champions League), Aston Villa and Fulham in the EPL, then I pity you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Hughes

Therefore, if those 3 players were available to NI, I'd certainly have Dunne in the team at CB alongside Hughes or Evans, with O'Shea at RB, and St. Ledger nowhere.

[Den Perry]

Utter Bull. I relied on the FIFA Rankings (plus Qualification and Seeding), which over the period in question (2004-2009) comprise nearly 50 games for each team i.e. wins, draws and losses, home and away.

First you insult the mentally handicapped with your "retarded" remark, now you attempt to insult me with a disgraceful sectarian epithet.

Shame indeed...:mad:

EG - accused me of being a bigot in an earlier thread "Northern Ireland", don't think you can complain if somebody else reckons you are. What's good for the goose is good for the gander

[kingdomkerry]

This thread is gone way off. Can we open up another thread to talk about Ireland V NI and keep this thread about the player in question?

[Predator]

Just read this article in the Derry Journal about Duffy:

'Duffy makes Toffees debut' (http://www.derryjournal.com/derry-sport/Duffy-makes--39Toffees39-debut.5470388.jp)

Sounds very mature. Perhaps this kind of news will alert Ireland to his potential?

[Gather round]

Just read this article in the Derry Journal about Duffy:

'Duffy makes Toffees debut' (http://www.derryjournal.com/derry-sport/Duffy-makes--39Toffees39-debut.5470388.jp)

Sounds very mature. Perhaps this kind of news will alert Ireland to his potential?

The FAI are already alert to his potential. But the way things stand- he's still so young, only a full competitive international ties a dual-qualified young player- this story could run and run.

[Predator]

The FAI are already alert to his potential. But the way things stand- he's still so young, only a full competitive international ties a dual-qualified young player- this story could run and run.

I was aware of that and you're right. I should have said that perhaps this kind of development would give the FAI youth managers a reason to pick, or at least, contact him.

[Wexford Delboy]

http://www.evertonfc.com/news/archive/duffy-admits-call-up-surprise.html
seems fairly set on NI

[Predator]

http://www.evertonfc.com/news/archive/duffy-admits-call-up-surprise.html
seems fairly set on NI

I don't know if he's 'fairly set' on N.I. for any other reason other than the fact they've propelled him through the ranks and rewarded his form. I reckon that if he had received the same treatment from the Republic, he'd be fairly set on them too.



Shane Duffy said
Getting called up by Northern Ireland was a big experience for me at a young age. I didn't get on and I was a bit disappointed, but hopefully I'll get my chance another time. I learnt a lot - it was a different level compared to what I'm used to playing for the Under-18s. It was a major shock just to be called up and I was so happy.
Imagine being in that position. You're a young footballer that has just turned 17 and you've only been playing professionally for less than 6 months. Of course you're going to be happy with your hard work and diligence being rewarded. I don't really see how that says that he's 'fairly set' on anyone.

As I've said before, the guy evidently has (or had?) an interest in playing for the Republic because of the fact he attended a camp in Dublin with the Republic youth teams. For whatever reason, he hasn't been included in a squad since then. Perhaps the Republic youth teams have better options in the centre-half position? Although, I don't understand how a guy who has been impressing his coaches at Everton - even being rewarded with a squad number and first team place in pre-season - can be overlooked in favour of a guy such as Lanre Oyebanjo (who's not even Irish born I believe?) who plays in the Conference(?). From what I've heard from various sources and the words of praise from the likes of Nigel Worthington, Duffy can play. I caught glimpses of his performance for Everton reserves versus Man United reserves last season and commentator Arthur Albiston singled him out for praise, despite a lacklustre performance from Everton. Maybe his team-mate, Seamus Coleman, whom Duffy claims is a good friend of his, can suggest that Duffy is given a chance?

That is merely my observation of the situation.

[Predator]

Made the bench (http://www.evertonfc.com/match/report/0910/39449/everton-v-arsenal.html?t=3) for Everton versus Arsenal game. With that kind of result, who knows how long it will be until he's given an opportunity?

[kingdomkerry]

This is the email I received from Sean McCaffery dated 26/05/09

I have had a message from Eoin Hand about Shane Duffy.
We invited Shane and Patrick Mc Eleney in to train with our U-17`s in June 2008. He came in, done well and we played him for a half in a Trial Match V Co. Down.

I then included him in the Squad for a Double Header Friendly V Bulgaria in August in For Shane to change over to play for the Rep of Ireland, he needed to sent letters to UEFA, FIFA and Northern IrelandOur administrator Gavin Costellowrote out all 3 letters which only needed Shane`s signature.

In the meantime a better offer came from Nigel Worthington who asked Shane to play for their U-19`s in the Milk Cup. Shane`s told us that he would stay with Northern Ireland.Around November 08 I was contacted by a third party to say that Shane wanted to play for our U-19`s in the UEFA Qualifiers. I told them that he can`t change mid season.

Since then I have a pain in the a.. with people contacting me about Shane wanting to play for the Republic. Journalists, radio presentors, and at least a dozen FAI members including John Delaneyour CEO, Eoin Hand, Wim Koevermans, Joe Boyle to name but a few. The one person that has NOT been contacted is me.If Shane wants to play for the Republic, ring Gavin to send out the letters that need signing. Sign them, post them and inform us that this has been done.a young player with ability who we`d be glad to have, but I`m not getting involved in an auction or circus. The ball is in his court. If he decides to play for us the whole saga can be put in the past and we can move on.As matter of information, Patrick Mc Eleney has been a revelation. He has huge potential, I believe that he came become a top Player.